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View Poll Results: Triggers, yay or nay?
Yes, I wouldn't survive without triggers! 7 33.33%
I have nothing against them, but I prefer to do it oldschool. 8 38.10%
I prefer everyone play equal with no triggers. 6 28.57%
I think I might vomit. 0 0%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-15-2014, 12:57 PM   #1
Belgarath
 
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Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Hello everyone!

I'm really interested to hear your guys' opinion on this. I've seen it discussed on the The Meeting Place as well as Mudconnect and it's received some pretty serious arguments and debates.

Personally, I enjoy using triggers cause almost every client today encourages them, and they're useful for many little things in game.

But there are many people who do not like triggers, or automation of any kind - and I've seen people seek out the "automaters" in other MUDs and "burn them at the stake" sort of speak.

So, what are your thoughts (player or admin) on others using triggers in your MUD? If you have rules against them, why do you and how do you enforce it?
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:12 PM   #2
chaosprime
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

My policy on the matter is:

Quote:
Triggers, Timers and Automation: The use of triggers and timers is discouraged, but not forbidden. If you insist on using
triggers and timers, you are responsible for ensuring that they do not negatively impact the MUD or create a public nuisance, as
for example by causing the accumulation of extremely large inventories (whether in rooms, personal inventory, containers or
otherwise). Any form of automation that involves very high volumes of command processing -- for example, anything that's based
around queueing large numbers of commands so your character is always running through them as quickly as possible -- is forbidden.
This makes enforcement low-impact because the only time enforcement is necessary is when enough of a nuisance is being created that it'd come to your attention anyway.

I don't like botters, to be quite frank, but I appreciate them on a certain level because they constitute an inherent critique of my game design: to whatever extent they are successful and rewarded, this is an extent to which I have created a weak design that rewards mindless repetition over engagement.
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Old 09-15-2014, 04:50 PM   #3
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Yeah I have to agree. To be honest, the reason I mostly use triggers and coding is because everyone else uses them. If everyone stopped then it would encourage me to stop as well.

Thing is, almost everyone lies about it when you ask them, when they're so obviously using triggers.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:33 AM   #4
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

I spend a lot of time refining my FE features, including triggers, for UL.

I agree with the game's policy too. As long as you're at your computer controlling things, you're fine. And not being a nuisance of course.

They are really handy for convenience things like skinning or keeping track of weapons and armor.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:21 PM   #5
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

For me, I just don't see the fun in stripping down combat to a series of yes/no statements and turning what should be a beautiful dance into a scripted rigmarole that removes the need for instinct, visceral understanding and above all a sound personal ability and savoir-faire for making decisions as they crop up.

Perpetuating a status quo that requires a heavy amount of automation to fight is in my opinion a good way to throw up barriers to new players joining the combat scene. New players who aren't coders or don't have time to make systems or, above all else: Aren't interested in watching their screen fly by with no input - these players are not going to be participating in combat if your MUD requires automation to compete.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:44 PM   #6
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsalvador View Post
players are not going to be participating in combat if your MUD requires automation to compete.
Well hello there :P

No MUD out there actually requires automation (far as I'm aware), it's only ever used to assist a player in whatever they may be doing in-game, whether it be useful utility scripts or full-on affliction/cure tracking. Auto combat is taking it to a whole new level.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:13 AM   #7
plamzi
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
No MUD out there actually requires automation (far as I'm aware), it's only ever used to assist a player in whatever they may be doing in-game, whether it be useful utility scripts or full-on affliction/cure tracking. Auto combat is taking it to a whole new level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsalvador View Post
these players are not going to be participating in combat if your MUD requires automation to compete
The point Elsalvador is making is that if scripting allows techy users to do better than their peers with less effort, then the game becomes a coding competition, and non-techy users will inevitably feel at a disadvantage.

A game doesn't have to *require* people to script, all it needs to do is cultivate the impression that the only way to "max out" your character is to learn to code.

Rather than fight scripting and botting in the policy as some do, I chose to try and make automation easy even for non-coders.

Automation has many flavors. Things that increase utility and allow players to focus on making the intelligent decisions should be built into the server. Scripts for affliction/cure tracking can't really be separated out from combat in a PK context, can they? It is natural that PK-heavy games would be more prone to try and limit scripting, if they don't want the game to turn into a "one uber-geek to rule them all".
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Old 09-18-2014, 02:05 PM   #8
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

I giggled at "one ubergeek to rule them all".

Plamzi got my point tho: If a status quo is perpetuated where automation is perceived as in any way required, or that any player can do better than another via scripting, then a barrier to entry is created IMMEDIATELY.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:33 PM   #9
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by plamzi View Post
Automation has many flavors. Things that increase utility and allow players to focus on making the intelligent decisions should be built into the server. Scripts for affliction/cure tracking can't really be separated out from combat in a PK context, can they? It is natural that PK-heavy games would be more prone to try and limit scripting, if they don't want the game to turn into a "one uber-geek to rule them all".
Fascinating. I'm curious as to what you mean by 'I chose to try and make automation easy even for non-coders'. Wouldn't implementing server-side automation just have the same effect to those who script using clients, and presumably add even more functionality/possibilities to their systems?

Also, what about players (like Elsalvador) who find no fun in automation, whether it be through clients or through server-side automation?

"one uber-geek to find them... one uber-geek to team them all... and in the spam: destroy them!".
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:59 PM   #10
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

I use triggers to highlight text to make it easier to see or to send party messages in combat-spammy games like RetroMUD. If you're the healer and your SP is low, sometimes the entire party's survival depends upon you letting the leader know that you're tapped, and typing out a message may take too long.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:55 AM   #11
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

After reading Belgarath's post on 2 different forums, I've come to realize that he's the Righteous Defender of Triggers. I have no problem with people using triggers but I've never seen a guy defend the usage of triggers so damn hard. Righteous Defender of Trigger guy, you do your thing and defend those triggers!
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:15 PM   #12
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkOzma View Post
After reading Belgarath's post on 2 different forums, I've come to realize that he's the Righteous Defender of Triggers. I have no problem with people using triggers but I've never seen a guy defend the usage of triggers so damn hard. Righteous Defender of Trigger guy, you do your thing and defend those triggers!
Hehe, still waiting on Plamzi's response to my question...!

It really is a serious discussion for me. Doesn't mean I'm "one uber-geek to rule them all". Elsalvador, amongst others, are always on my case about it - this is not the first time "Elsalvador" has had something derogatory to say, and I'm so pleased he's found a way to stick his nose on here as well...

Quote:
"What DO you actually do in a fight - watch the text scroll by?"
It's very offensive to presume I put no effort in, since really I add new bits to the system every day, and despite the effort it can never really compare to the intuitive forethought put behind manual combat.

Triggerphobe - a person who hates or is afraid of scripters or treats them badly.
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:28 PM   #13
plamzi
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
Hehe, still waiting on Plamzi's response to my question...!
Your past posts and present tone both suggest that you're looking for flame fodder, and I'm far too busy to indulge, even if it will give me a great opportunity to show off my work.

If you are genuinely curious, there are easy ways you can find out more. Just click on a few links, google a few things...
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Old 09-19-2014, 10:19 PM   #14
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

If anything my tone has been conversational and interested in discussion from the MUD community at large.

I'm more interested in the way that automation becomes a barrier for entry as opposed to making derogatory remarks against individuals.
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Old 05-17-2015, 04:03 AM   #15
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

I used to hate them , then i had to learn how to make them (otherwise I'd get destroyed in combat) , now i can make them. i find it hard not to use them
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:32 AM   #16
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosprime View Post
My policy on the matter is:



This makes enforcement low-impact because the only time enforcement is necessary is when enough of a nuisance is being created that it'd come to your attention anyway.

I don't like botters, to be quite frank, but I appreciate them on a certain level because they constitute an inherent critique of my game design: to whatever extent they are successful and rewarded, this is an extent to which I have created a weak design that rewards mindless repetition over engagement.
I feel EXACTLY the same way.
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:57 PM   #17
Elsalvador
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malifax View Post
I feel EXACTLY the same way.
Nice, succinct way of putting it. I'm surprised that engagement is the silver medal (or so it seems) compared to the gold-standard of mindless repetition propagated by a lot of games.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:18 AM   #18
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Personally, I don't like triggers at all. I like games in which you type one command at a time. It feels more like you are making the decisions in real-time for your character. I first started playing MUD games in order to practice my typing skills in a fun and eventful medium. That said, most games require triggers and macros in order to participate in pvp fights with even a small chance of winning. In fact, most pvp combatants seem to use complex scripts that do all the work for them. Any suggestions for a MUD that limits combat to one command or spell at a time without macros or scripts?
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Old 06-10-2015, 12:03 PM   #19
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyanko View Post
Any suggestions for a MUD that limits combat to one command or spell at a time without macros or scripts?
RP oriented ones.
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:47 PM   #20
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Re: Using Triggers (Yay or Nay?)

I'm lazy. That means I like automation.
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