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Old 12-23-2004, 05:35 AM   #21
 
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Huh, that's odd - and a little disappointing.

I don't see any supporting evidence for that blanket statement of yours. Let me translate it into a statement that's a bit more honest for those that might have missed it: in Tyche's ever-so-venerable opinion, it's a false conceit because better role-play occurs elsewhere.
Well yes.  IMNSHO or IMESVO if you want.  The RPIers, at least those vocal enough to prolificly post on the subject, have adopted the same conceit that the old Tiny MU* crowd did with Hack-n-Slash.  Yeah better role-play exists outside of RPI muds.  The "intensity" part of the acronym is lame, but we've argued over that before.  You're not any more "intense" than those playing at places like TrekMush or ElendorMush.  What you really mean is "complete immersion" or at least dwarves passably faking it while gaming the game.  Not that there's anything wrong with logging into a RPI mud and having one of your "intense" RPIers send you whispers or telpathic tells on how stupid you are for picking the staff over the sword, because well the sword is much better than the staff (actually happened to me on an RPI mud).  Not that there's anything wrong with trying to enjoy the game with a friend and being thrown into different hometowns and not being able to play together, let alone even communicate with each other ooc-ly (that too happens).  

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Given the fact that Armageddon, a fairly well-known RPI, averages 60-80 players on nightly or so and over 200 for large events, and given the fact that my own MUD generally averages 30-50 a night and over 100 for large events, I'm going to hazard a wild guess here and say there are substantial numbers of people who disagree with you.
Ah but size is inimical to good role-play.  Someone said that the quality of role-play is inversely proportional to the number of players.  I think they were right.  Nevertheless Shangrila averages 300 players a night and has hit close to 600 for special events.  Of course size may matter there. *kof*  And I'd imagine being enslaved and whipped by hot chicks in leather might well be more intense than hanging with hairy footed hobbitses.  But there are dozens of other role-playing non-RPI muds between 25-50 players with somewhat more traditional vein of scifi/fantasy.    

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Come to think of it, with the supposedly shrinking number of MU* players these days, we could probably count the numbers of MUDs on the entire internet with similar or larger number of players online on two or three hands - less, if we remove the large commercial games.
None of the ones I named are even listed here, despite being larger.  One might consider the possibility that a significant group of mudders don't read TMS, TMC, or Mudmagic.  Why should they?  They have their own communities.  I will say the TMS role-playing board is better than the other two.  I see at least some non-RPIers, but just as intense if not moreso, mud role-players have posted there.

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So really, come off your high horse already. The genre appeals to some people, and doesn't appeal to others. End of story. If your issue with games like this is some sort of perceived elitism, I can't imagine that turning around and doing the same thing (or worse) will do much for your moral high ground - really, I'd expect better from someone with your obvious intellect.
Hey it's not me that thinks they are better because of this intensity thang.  It doesn't appeal to me obviously.  My experience is the "I" in RPI on some of these games stands for "Invasive rectal monitoring".  You don't have those sorts 'trust' issues on role-playing muds that don't implement games that can be gamed by dwarves.

Not that there's anything horribly wrong with RPI mind you.  :-P
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Old 12-23-2004, 01:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 23 2004,05:35)
Ah but size is inimical to good role-play.  Someone said that the quality of role-play is inversely proportional to the number of players.  I think they were right.  Nevertheless Shangrila averages 300 players a night and has hit close to 600 for special events.  
Just a point about Shangri'la. It has a lot of players online primarily because they let people idle online. Last time I checked (few months ago), the -average- player on Shangri'la had been idle longer (26 minutes) than the most idle player on the mud I was comparing it to.

--matt
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:04 PM   #23
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This post has kind of gotten off topic but thats ok, I'm glad it spurred some discussion. I tried out all the muds recommended and still didn't find anything that really suits me. *shrug* It happens.

A lot of points have been raised concerning RPIs and other types of muds. I'll pitch in my two cents. When I say RPI I don't mean games that are classless/leveless, only use descriptions instead of names, etc., etc. I mean a game where all things in the game have to be roleplayed. Roleplay "encouraged" leaves a lot of room for players to just be twinks. Some roleplay "enforced" games are the same way. I don't think a RPI needs to be void of classes, levels, or the occasional mob hacking. It does need to have an enforced IC/OOC policy. In my opinion if a game allows or encourages players to simply gather eq, become uber buff, and massacre anyone they want just cause they're "1337" then its not an RPI.
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:24 PM   #24
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Icky,

Since we had a mention of your definite for RPI MUDs, I'd also be curious what makes a MUSH something you're not interested in that differs from what you seek in an RPI MUD. What things are you looking to avoid by avoiding MUSHes?
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by (lckychrmsrr @ Dec. 23 2004,14:04)
This post has kind of gotten off topic but thats ok, I'm glad it spurred some discussion.  I tried out all the muds recommended and still didn't find anything that really suits me.  *shrug* It happens.  

A lot of points have been raised concerning RPIs and other types of muds.  I'll pitch in my two cents.  When I say RPI I don't mean games that are classless/leveless, only use descriptions instead of names, etc., etc.  I mean a game where all things in the game have to be roleplayed.  Roleplay "encouraged" leaves a lot of room for players to just be twinks.  Some roleplay "enforced" games are the same way.  I don't think a RPI needs to be void of classes, levels, or the occasional mob hacking.  It does need to have an enforced IC/OOC policy.  In my opinion if a game allows or encourages players to simply gather eq, become uber buff, and massacre anyone they want just cause they're "1337" then its not an RPI.
I'm going to use the term RPI the way it actually is, not the way you use it Icky. It is designed to classify a certain type of muds(that many people either love or hate, in order to attract/warn away players respectively) and using it differently is a real pet peeve of mine. It's a name that allready has a meaning, it isn't really an opinion that varies from person to person although many people try to use it that way. Anyway, my response:

Hmm, you don't want strict RPI, but you don't want a game that allows or encourages players to gather eq, become buff, and massacre anybody? So basicly an RP mud that is not to restrictive on RP, but not too lenient either. Well, it's hard to decide what is to restrictive and what is to lenient for you for the simple reason that I am not you, but have you tried New Worlds? From what I've read about it, they seem very very RP-oriented, but not to the extreme that an RPI is. I haven't actually played there for more than about 10 minutes, so I can't be sure. (I left cause I'm REAL picky about the RP in the muds I play). There's also Advent of the Mists(or something like that) that is full of lots of ex-Turning Point players. I don't know how far in it's creation it has gotten though. Hmm, that's about all I can think of.
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:44 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by (Felomar @ Dec. 23 2004,14:24)
Icky,

Since we had a mention of your definite for RPI MUDs, I'd also be curious what makes a MUSH something you're not interested in that differs from what you seek in an RPI MUD. What things are you looking to avoid by avoiding MUSHes?
He said he liked PK. Unless my understanding of MUSHes is completely wrong(which it very well may be), that would be enough right there, to keep him away from any MUSH.
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Old 12-24-2004, 02:01 AM   #27
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I must say I've never played a MUSH but I have visited several websites and read through their requirements, rules, mechanics, etc.  Many of them allow for PK, but not in the way it is done on a mud.  My experience with MUSHes is that you have to gain permission from the other players to do anything that might affect them in any way before you do it.  That in addition to having entire battle done through only emotes with not code to back them up does not appeal to me.  Like many have expressed here, we each have our own tastes and MUSHes don't taste good to me.  

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RPI MUDs

Another lesser known variant of a MUD are RPI MUDs, Role-Play Intensive Multi-User Dungeon. RPI MUDs center themselves around playing out specific roles as if the role were real. Realism is often blended in with fantasy in these types of MU*s. In general, the objective of the game is not to complete computer-generated quests or to hack-and-slash monsters in order to gain levels and equipment, but to collaborate with fellow players to create complex and multi-layered storylines in a cohesive gameworld. RPIs are very different from other MU* because of this.

The majority of RPI MUDs are levelless and classless, focusing instead on skills and crafts that players may pursue during the lifetime of their characters. RPIs also differ from MUSHes in that they retain the hard code of a MUD in deciding such variable outcomes as combat, magickal spells, and so on.

RPI MUDs could be considered giant plays where the setting or world is the theater, and the players are the actors as well as the viewers. RPIs are a newer branch of MUDs in general, but have still been around for a long period of time
Also, by using this definition of RPI what I have asked for does not stray from this.  An RPI does not -HAVE- to be leveless or classless, it only needs to place RP at the center of things.  I like the hardcoding of a mud and I like the RP.  I don't mind things like classes, levels, or XP if it is all secondary to the RP.  

The thing is, I am only looking for suggestions to see what other players here like by giving a vague set of guidlines so I can test a wider variety of what might otherwise be recommended if I had provided a strict definition of what I was looking for.  I realize wherever I go will NOT be where I used to play.  However, I would like to find the closest thing available.
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Old 12-24-2004, 06:22 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by (lckychrmsrr @ Dec. 24 2004,02[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]1)]I must say I've never played a MUSH but I have visited several websites and read through their requirements, rules, mechanics, etc.  Many of them allow for PK, but not in the way it is done on a mud.  My experience with MUSHes is that you have to gain permission from the other players to do anything that might affect them in any way before you do it.  That in addition to having entire battle done through only emotes with not code to back them up does not appeal to me.  Like many have expressed here, we each have our own tastes and MUSHes don't taste good to me.
There you run into yet another subdivision... the "Consent-Based MUSH" versus the MUSH that doesn't consider itself Consent-Based. In my experience, PK generally falls into four camps:

1) No PK - kind of obvious, this is games where no player can kill any other player for any reason.

2) Free-for-all - By this I mean the basic hack-n-slash MUD-type PK, where you can simply walk up to anyone on the street and stab them with a knife because it'll gain you better levels if you win. These games tend to advertise PK as a major component. They also tend to be, but are not always, non-permadeath games.

3) Full Consent-Based - This is the opposite end of the scale, and includes the MUSHes you described, where you can only hurt another player if they agree to it, no matter what the situation. This has often be likened to playing Cowboys and Indians as kids "Bang, I shot you. No you didn't. Yes I did". With good players who like the storyline and trust each other, it works just fine on the honor system. Introduce a powerposer who believes he can dodge 79 arrows simultaneously and things begin to crumble if admin don't step in and make (and enforce) rulings.

4) Non-consent RP-based PK - This is sort of a wide category, and could be subdivided in many ways. They use various terms including "Limited PK" to describe themselves. But what it basically means is a game where you are allowed to kill a player without them having to consent to the death, but you have to demonstrate an IC reason for doing so, whether it be a century-long feud, a war, or stabbing them with a broken bottle in the heat of a bar brawl. It has to be done in the context of the ongoing roleplay. And because it happens in the context of the IC roleplaying, it also carries IC consequences with it. Walk into the throne room and kill the king, and you'll be branded a traitor and assassin ICly, and those loyal to the king will be hunting you, including NPC guards. Kill a man in a bar brawl, and the constable may come looking for you.

I'd classify Chiaroscuro as an example of the 4th. Player death is fairly rare outside admin plots, though a few duels have been fought. It's rare for anyone to kill anyone else because we all know how much effort each other have put into characters, and the game is permadeath. We do, also, have luck cards that provide a "Get out of death with only major injuries and maiming" option, if there's a reasonably IC way for it to happen. Which means, a single archer may miss a killing shot and only disable you. A thousand archers all firing at you is probably a non-luck-card situation. Combat is determined by taskrolls, but RPed out attack by attack, with the rolls determining success or failure.
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Old 12-24-2004, 12:07 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by (lckychrmsrr @ Dec. 24 2004,02:01)
I must say I've never played a MUSH but I have visited several websites and read through their requirements, rules, mechanics, etc.  Many of them allow for PK, but not in the way it is done on a mud.  My experience with MUSHes is that you have to gain permission from the other players to do anything that might affect them in any way before you do it.  That in addition to having entire battle done through only emotes with not code to back them up does not appeal to me.  Like many have expressed here, we each have our own tastes and MUSHes don't taste good to me.  

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RPI MUDs

Another lesser known variant of a MUD are RPI MUDs, Role-Play Intensive Multi-User Dungeon. RPI MUDs center themselves around playing out specific roles as if the role were real. Realism is often blended in with fantasy in these types of MU*s. In general, the objective of the game is not to complete computer-generated quests or to hack-and-slash monsters in order to gain levels and equipment, but to collaborate with fellow players to create complex and multi-layered storylines in a cohesive gameworld. RPIs are very different from other MU* because of this.

The majority of RPI MUDs are levelless and classless, focusing instead on skills and crafts that players may pursue during the lifetime of their characters. RPIs also differ from MUSHes in that they retain the hard code of a MUD in deciding such variable outcomes as combat, magickal spells, and so on.

RPI MUDs could be considered giant plays where the setting or world is the theater, and the players are the actors as well as the viewers. RPIs are a newer branch of MUDs in general, but have still been around for a long period of time
Also, by using this definition of RPI what I have asked for does not stray from this.  An RPI does not -HAVE- to be leveless or classless, it only needs to place RP at the center of things.  I like the hardcoding of a mud and I like the RP.  I don't mind things like classes, levels, or XP if it is all secondary to the RP.  

The thing is, I am only looking for suggestions to see what other players here like by giving a vague set of guidlines so I can test a wider variety of what might otherwise be recommended if I had provided a strict definition of what I was looking for.  I realize wherever I go will NOT be where I used to play.  However, I would like to find the closest thing available.
Using a definition from a site that anybody can edit, change, or create entries is hardly using a precise definition.

I really don't see why people keep trying to redefine RPI muds to be whatever RP mud they like playing. It only causes confusion. If you want to have a name for the type of RP mud that you like to play, pick a name that doesn't allready mean something specific. Using RPI mud the way you are is like me using MUSH to mean a game with humans as the only race. It's using a standard mud term to mean something different and only serves to cause confusion.

RPI muds are one type of RP mud. If you don't like them, fine. But stop trying to redefine their title just because you enjoy playing a different type of mud.
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Old 12-25-2004, 10:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 24 2004,12:07)
Using a definition from a site that anybody can edit, change, or create entries is hardly using a precise definition.
The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate?
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Old 12-25-2004, 06:48 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 25 2004,10:15)
The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate?
Did you notice that dragonmaster never gave a definition?

I've figured out the definition will always match whatever the current features are of the muds that call themselves RPIs.
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Old 12-25-2004, 07:01 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 23 2004,13:53)
Just a point about Shangri'la. It has a lot of players online primarily because they let people idle online. Last time I checked (few months ago), the -average- player on Shangri'la had been idle longer (26 minutes) than the most idle player on the mud I was comparing it to.

--matt
Well perhaps they were bound, gagged and getting some well-deserved discipline making it hard to get to the keyboard. But yes many moos, mucks and mushes are designed to leave the characters in the world if they desire. Sometimes they have scripts attached to receive messages or relay mail. I'm guessing though I don't know for sure, that would probably a punishable offense on an RPI mud.
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Old 12-25-2004, 10:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 25 2004,18:48)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 25 2004,10:15)
The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate?
Did you notice that dragonmaster never gave a definition?  

I've figured out the definition will always match whatever the current features are of the muds that call themselves RPIs.
Nope, actually, many muds call themselves RPIs but are not.

An RPI mud is levelless, xpless, has permadeath, no global channels(except a newb channel I think), is incredibly RP focused(yah this ones up to opinion mostly, that's the main reason for the other requirements that are more of a yes/no thing), and there are probly other requirements but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
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Old 12-26-2004, 04:56 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 25 2004,22:22)
Nope, actually, many muds call themselves RPIs but are not.

An RPI mud is levelless, xpless, has permadeath, no global channels(except a newb channel I think), is incredibly RP focused(yah this ones up to opinion mostly, that's the main reason for the other requirements that are more of a yes/no thing), and there are probly other requirements but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
It's interesting that Armegeddon really has levels and experience points, they are actually abstracted into the skill system. Experience is gained through repeated use of skills and one advances to higher skill levels via some form of hidden tally, aka experience points. One abstraction is simply replaced with another. Sounds to me like just hiding the levels and experience points is sufficient to meet that part of RPI definition. And they've got mana and hit points too.

OTOH, ElendorMush is truely levelless and experience pointless. Neither hit points nor mana either. There are no other abstractions replacing those. The only difference is it does have OOC global channels. It certainly satisfies the intense role-playing criteria though. That's obvious through the extensive logs.

So where's the rest of this RPI mud definition that you can't remember? One would have thought being that it's so very important to you that you'd have a very clear idea of just exactly what it is. Maybe even give us lots of links to essays and definitions. I've read here that RPI muds can't have a who list, and a score command. Hmm... some do though.
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Old 12-26-2004, 05:00 PM   #35
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I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:57 AM   #36
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Tyche have you even seen the code for Armageddon? I find it disturbing that you made the statement that it has levels and experience when you yourself are not even on staff for Armageddon, and you can't even spell the muds name right, so your experience with it is obviously lacking. And a definition for RPI mud? It's already been posted, everyones definition for an Acronym in the MUD world is obviously going to differ from person to person, even when RPI is not a word we all know it means.. Role-Playing Intensive. With those three words any mud that is just Role-Play, is not an RPI we can all deduce, you have that Intensive in there for a reason, what is Intense? IMNSHO..
-Permadeath
-No levels
-No experience
-Detailed emoting system
-Well-written rooms/areas/objects/weapons
-Good solid code to support the roleplaying

Those are Intense things that make an RPI an RPI, they are INTENSE things that take away from the code(no levels) or support it (emote system).
Yes I play Armageddon MUD.

-Del
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Old 12-27-2004, 03:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 26 2004,16:56)
It's interesting that Armegeddon really has levels and experience points,  they are actually abstracted into the skill system.  Experience is gained through repeated use of skills and one advances to higher skill levels via some form of hidden tally, aka experience points.   One abstraction is simply replaced with another.   Sounds to me like just hiding the levels and experience points is sufficient to meet that part of RPI definition.  And they've got mana and hit points too.
Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:43 PM   #38
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An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay, and which offers the player a chance to create and act out a role.  The intensity is a difference of degree, and not something that disqualifies a place because they don't match some numerical criteria or have OOC mechanisms to help the player.

To my mind, the factor that makes a MUD successful at being roleplay intensive is having things that facilitate getting inside the role.  Delerak mentioned some -- the think command's another noteable one.  

That's where a lot of the code being decried as tedious comes into play, I think, such as getting one's clothes dusty when walking through a sandstorm, or finding that cooked food is more filling/satisfactory than uncooked.  They're not intended, though, to slow things down for the player and keep them from wandering off to spam kill fidos - they're there because they make the game world slightly more "real".  And that degree of adherence to gritty detail is not everyone's cup of tea - which seems fine to me.  

I like the occasional ramble on a hack and slash, and the drive to level, because it's a fun way to explore the game.  I've built a few areas on such games, and enjoyed the heck out of it, as anyone who's played Everwinter or the Midsummer Night's Forest on DarkCastle can testify -- they're silly and full of little pop culture references and jokes.  I like playing some console games because they're fun for different reasons, often revolving around graphics.  But if I want storytelling, a character and plotlines that makes me laugh or cry, I go to an RPI, because that's where they really shine.

Some hack and slashes get a bad rap because they're stock Diku (or ROM, or whatever flavor) and therefore tend to be the same as any other.  I like innovativeness and cool little features that I can explore, and so far I've found them more consistently on RPIs.  Which is not to say they don't exist elsewhere.

It seems a little disingenuous to me to say that the best roleplay doesn't happen in the environments that facilitate and encourage it the most.  Sure, it can happen elsewhere in lands replete with gossip and auction channels, but it's not going to flourish and self-perpetuate in the way it does when you're in an atmosphere where it's the main focus of the majority of the players.
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:33 PM   #39
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I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.
I am currently giving New Worlds a try. While it is still in developement the players there are all focused on RP and enforce it themselves. The reasons I did not like SOI or Arm is because I didn't care for the theme. I gave SOI a try for over a month and Arm I spent a week or two. There was nothing wrong with the players, although some people take their emotes a little far. I just didn't care for the theme of the games. While New Worlds is lacking in areas like room descriptions and help files it is one of the friendliest places I've ever been. A lot of games send a welcome message to you once you enter but this game actually has players who will personally show the around the game and give you tips on how to get started and where the best newbie RP is.

In case anyone still reading this thread has muds to recommend I'll provide a few more details on what I'm looking for in case there is something other than whats been recommended that I may like. I want a game...

* where the focus is RP
* that is preferably fantasy themed, but I'm open to give others a try
* that is newbie friendly if possible
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:51 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by (lckychrmsrr @ Dec. 28 2004,13:33)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.
I am currently giving New Worlds a try.  While it is still in developement the players there are all focused on RP and enforce it themselves.  The reasons I did not like SOI or Arm is because I didn't care for the theme.  I gave SOI a try for over a month and Arm I spent a week or two.  There was nothing wrong with the players, although some people take their emotes a little far.  I just didn't care for the theme of the games.  While New Worlds is lacking in areas like room descriptions and help files it is one of the friendliest places I've ever been.  A lot of games send a welcome message to you once you enter but this game actually has players who will personally show the around the game and give you tips on how to get started and where the best newbie RP is.  

In case anyone still reading this thread has muds to recommend I'll provide a few more details on what I'm looking for in case there is something other than whats been recommended that I may like.  I want a game...

* where the focus is RP
* that is preferably fantasy themed, but I'm open to give others a try
* that is newbie friendly if possible
Well, if you don't like SoI or Arm based on their themes, than I'd recommend Harshlands. Completely different theme than either SoI or Arm with very strong religious influences(religions are practically non-existant in SoI and I believe in Arm as well) and strong cultural divides. There aren't as many players on Harshlands though, but you might want to give it a try if you haven't allready.
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