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Old 12-28-2004, 05:45 PM   #41
 
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Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 27 2004,15:45)
Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.
I've been talking about and comparing three different general classes of muds according to how role-playing is done, not just hack-n-slash Dikus vs. RPIs, but RPIs vs. pure role-playing muds.

For example:
Aardwolf hack-n-slash
Harshlands RPI
ElendorMush role-playing

It's rather obvious to me that muds like Harshlands and Armageddon do contain hack-n-slash games just like Aardwolf while incorporating some of the elements of pure role-playing games like Elendor and TrekMush. Skill-based development based on use is certainly not unique to RPI games. The finer abstraction of skill levels as opposed to character levels has been part of many hack-n-slash muds for a long time.

My objection is that RPI does not have specific criteria and is just another analog term that can describe a number of muds today, and is no longer codebase dependent (i.e Threshhold is an RPI mud, and there's a few RPI mushes - I listed them on an earlier thread). But most importantly the quality of role-playing on an RPI mud is not any better nor more intensive than a non-RPI role-playing mud, as opposed to it certainly being better than a typical hack-n-slash mud.
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Old 12-28-2004, 06:39 PM   #42
 
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Originally Posted by (Sanvean @ Dec. 28 2004,12:43)
An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay, and which offers the player a chance to create and act out a role. The intensity is a difference of degree, and not something that disqualifies a place because they don't match some numerical criteria or have OOC mechanisms to help the player.

To my mind, the factor that makes a MUD successful at being roleplay intensive is having things that facilitate getting inside the role. Delerak mentioned some -- the think command's another noteable one.
It seems the implementors have a more liberal definition than the players. Which is good. Were it that simple just comparing it to a pure game like stock Diku, but there are some pretty dramatic differences in role-play style compared with pure storyteller, freestyle or game mastered role-playing muds.

One thing I noticed that's different on RPI muds is the attitude towards a simulationist aspect being present. That is players are roleplaying against/with an environment. Coming from playing role-playing mushes, for the most part the players implement the environment or the reality. There's a lot more player control over the world. Yes our clothes get dusty, wet, torn, there are storms, and earthquakes, and our food tastes different probably in more ways than one could imagine or code.

There's also the presence of goal-based game that doesn't have anything to do with role-play; that is to say can be gamed, min/maxed mechanically like D&D, Gurps or Rolemaster. If you think about it, absent role-play enforcement, an RPI mud would devolve into a pure hack-slash mud. On many of the other styles of role-playing muds that don't have the goal-based game, absent role-play enforcement they would devolve into purely social environments like a talker and/or building based toy environments (i.e LambaMOO).

BTW I've also played and enjoyed many hack-n-slash muds as well like Artic, Batmud, Sojourn, and Ground Zero. I don't believe most people play specific games or even game types to the exclusion of others. I enjoy chess, card games, baseball, volleyball, quake, age of empires, civilization, wargaming, pen and paper rpgs, zork-style games, diplomacy, as well as role-playing muds.

I even play and enjoy the rather low role-playing immersion of a tabletop D&D dungeon hack-n-slash at the kitchen table, as well as the higher immersion of a tabletop Ars Magica campaign. One thing that would turn me off totally from a tabletop RPG is a game master who wouldn't tolerate any OOC social interaction between the players at all, or ran a game based solely on the game mechanics without making any judgements or situational rules up to handle events. Hmm I think that's gets to the core why I don't particularly enjoy RPI muds, or what some call RPIs.
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Old 12-29-2004, 12:05 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 28 2004,17:45)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 27 2004,15:45)
Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.
I've been talking about and comparing three different general classes of muds according to how role-playing is done, not just hack-n-slash Dikus vs. RPIs, but RPIs vs. pure role-playing muds.  

For example:
Aardwolf       hack-n-slash
Harshlands    RPI
ElendorMush  role-playing

It's rather obvious to me that muds like Harshlands and Armageddon do contain hack-n-slash games just like Aardwolf while incorporating some of the elements of pure role-playing games like Elendor and TrekMush.   Skill-based development based on use is certainly not unique to RPI games.   The finer abstraction of skill levels as opposed to character levels has been part of many hack-n-slash muds for a long time.  

My objection is that RPI does not have specific criteria and is just another analog term that can describe a number of muds today, and is no longer codebase dependent (i.e  Threshhold is an RPI mud, and there's a few RPI mushes - I listed them on an earlier thread).  But most importantly the quality of role-playing on an RPI mud is not any better nor more intensive than a non-RPI role-playing mud, as opposed to it certainly being better than a typical hack-n-slash mud.
Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.

And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:42 AM   #44
 
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Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20)
Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.
Sure it is. It's got the same features and role-playing style that I find unenjoyable on Armegeddon. Last time I played Threshold (which was ages ago) you were punished for using the OOC channel too much, that may have changed. And the other stuff I mentioned in the post to Sanvean.

Permadeath certainly can't be a requirement... rather the immersion requirement I suspect is to implement the world realistically (realism along the lines of the underlying fantasy obviously). In a mostly deathless world like Vampyre or a world where resurrection or cloning is commonplace and part of "reality" would make permadeath "unreal" and non-immersive. So no that can't be a requirement, as neither would a definition requiring all RPI muds to meet the ridiculous notion that everyone is telepathic and can send tells to each other, or require the stage to be in a desert world.

You know the first implementor of an RPI mud to use the term RPI stated emphatically that who and score were OOC and didn't belong in an RPI mud. Hey it's a great point following right along the line of global channels. Where's that leave Armegeddon? In strictly non-RPI land. That is if you follow the specific criteria rather than a more reasonable and sensical analog criteria.

But yes Armegeedon has levels too. But I'm now repeating myself. It's meaningless distinction of game mechanics that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "intense role-playing" or the style of game. Whether you know OOCly that you are a level 10 thief on Threshold or you are a level 47 pick-pocket on Armeggedon doesn't make the experience any more intense or immersive. Whether it's hidden or open to inspection maybe. So what's the deal with the anti-immersive Armegeddon stat command? See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20)
And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.
Well yeah we've gone full circle. Those who enjoy Armegeddon would be far far more likely to enjoy Threshold and vice versa than they would TrekMush or Shangrila. I'm not talking theme but role-playing style. Both Threshold and Armegeddon implement RPI style games, the others clearly don't. It's also apparent they have far less in common with Hack-n-slash games than do Armegeddon and Threshold. BTW neither refer to themselves as RPI muds. Doesn't mean they aren't though.
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:18 AM   #45
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Do you mis-spell Armageddon purposefully or is English not your first language?

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Old 12-29-2004, 10:52 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Dec. 29 2004,06:18)
Do you mis-spell Armageddon purposefully or is English not your first language?

-Del
Isn't Armageddon technically a Hebrew and not English word?

As long as we're being nitpicky anyway.
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Old 12-29-2004, 12:16 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 29 2004,02:42)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20)
Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.
Sure it is.  It's got the same features and role-playing style  that I find unenjoyable on Armegeddon.   Last time I played Threshold (which was ages ago) you were punished for using the OOC channel too much, that may have changed.   And the other stuff I mentioned in the post to Sanvean.

Permadeath certainly can't be a requirement... rather the immersion requirement I suspect is to implement the world realistically (realism along the lines of the underlying fantasy obviously).   In a mostly deathless world like Vampyre or a world where resurrection or cloning is commonplace and part of "reality" would make permadeath "unreal" and non-immersive.   So no that can't be a requirement, as neither would a definition requiring all RPI muds to meet the ridiculous notion that everyone is telepathic and can send tells to each other, or require the stage to be in a desert world.  

You know the first implementor of an RPI mud to use the term RPI stated emphatically that who and score were OOC and didn't belong in an RPI mud.  Hey it's a great point following right along the line of global channels.  Where's that leave Armegeddon?  In strictly non-RPI land.  That is if you follow the specific criteria rather than a more reasonable and sensical analog criteria.

But yes Armegeedon has levels too.  But I'm now repeating myself.  It's meaningless distinction of game mechanics that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "intense role-playing" or the style of game.   Whether you know OOCly that you are a level 10 thief on Threshold or you are a level 47 pick-pocket on Armeggedon doesn't make the experience any more intense or immersive.   Whether it's hidden or open to inspection maybe.   So what's the deal with the anti-immersive Armegeddon stat command?  See above.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20)
And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.
Well yeah we've gone full circle.  Those who enjoy Armegeddon would be far far more likely to enjoy Threshold and vice versa than they would TrekMush or Shangrila.   I'm not talking theme but role-playing style.   Both Threshold and Armegeddon implement RPI style games, the others clearly don't.   It's also apparent they have far less in common with Hack-n-slash games than do Armegeddon and Threshold.  BTW neither refer to themselves as RPI muds.   Doesn't mean they aren't though.
I would have to say that Arm and Threshold are completely different types of games RP wise. Most of the people I know who enjoy playing RPIs and have played Threshold, don't like it. It isn't the same type of game at all.
And as for the whole "non-permadeath to increase immersion" thing, if people never die in the world, than I'm taking it that new people are never born either? Otherwise the world population would have serious problems. No such thing as assassins in such a world, why kill somebody when they pop back up? Necromancers(a class in Threshold IIRC) would have problems to if all their corpses jumped back up and started attacking them. There wouldn't be too much war, as it would last forever as soldiers got back up and continued fighting and eventually people would get bored, and realize nothing was going to happen. There would be no sense of courage really as people wouldn't be worried about doing something dangerous since they could pop back up all fine and dandy.

A mud could be set up so that the lack of permadeath increases immersion, but Threshold wasn't done that way, the permadeath was not included so that players would not have to make new characters when they died.
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:46 PM   #48
 
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Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 29 2004,10:52)
Isn't Armageddon technically a Hebrew and not English word?

As long as we're being nitpicky anyway.
Yes it's 'har-megiddo' in hebrew which means mountain of Megiddo and 'megiddo' means his precious fruit. In latin, it's 'armagedon' because I suppose Romans couldn't spell very well either, and made the 'e' an 'a' and dropped the double 'd'. Later some english translator restored the double 'd'. I suppose in full English annoying translation mode it would be 'Fruit Mountain'. Since nobody straight would be caught dead on a mud called "Fruit Mountain", I don't blame them for sticking with Armegeddon... err Armageddon.
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Old 12-30-2004, 01:18 AM   #49
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Hah, that's an interesting bit of information. I thought Armageddon was the end of the world. At least in english terms.
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Old 12-30-2004, 02:18 AM   #50
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There was a thread discussing it on our boards
here
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Old 12-31-2004, 04:44 AM   #51
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Ever notice how hack and slashers can't discern between RPI and other roleplaying games?

Just because there is an element of roleplay, it does not make it an RPI.

There is a huge difference, something hack and slash players cannot separate for some reason. I think it is really because they realize that as far as true RP is concerned, their hack and slash games fall short in that aspect.

Basically the difference between RP and RPI.ntensive which some cannot seem to grasp.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:48 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by (Dunestalker @ Dec. 31 2004,04:44)
Ever notice how hack and slashers can't discern between RPI and other roleplaying games?

Just because there is an element of roleplay, it does not make it an RPI.

There is a huge difference, something hack and slash players cannot separate for some reason. I think it is really because they realize that as far as true RP is concerned, their hack and slash games fall short in that aspect.

Basically the difference between RP and RPI.ntensive which some cannot seem to grasp.
OK, you've got a post about how dense hack and slashers are, yet you don't actually attempt to define the difference that they don't understand.

Personally, it seems to me that the RPers don't understand the difference either, because nobody here can give a consistent definition that others agree with.

The fact of the matter is that there's no one accepted authority for these definitions, and therefore they're really rather open to personal opinion. I play on a MUSH that has coded systems for crafting, travel, and a combat system that mingles skill rolls with admin oversight. It has only three OOC channels: one for newbie helping, one for the distracting chatter that was piling up on the newbie channel, and one that was a reward to House Lomasa for winning a recent contest. It also has an operating OOC command for talking to others in a room. By various definitions given here so far, that might or might not make it a MUSH, an RPI MUD, or an RP Enforced MUD.

Personally, I suggest the best solution is just to list the features you want when looking for a game.

Is the presence of OOC channels a negative for you?
Do you want a combat system that resolves combat without requiring any admin oversight?
Do you want to be killing people frequently, and should they stay dead when killed?
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Old 12-31-2004, 06:09 AM   #53
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Oy vey.

Call me completely insane, ignorant and/or stupid here, but to me it seems rather obvious what most people expect when they see the label "RPI". Putting aside for a moment all imagined connotations implied and express in such an acronym, MUDs that do and have labelled themselves as such tend to share a few distinctive features in common that generally appeal to a very minority niche: the complete absence of OOC channels, permadeath, a focus on fairly gritty levels of coded realism (i.e. to a degree that probably proves definitionally exclusive to most MUSHes), and likely a few other things.

Why is it that people get so worked up over an acronym? I never could understand why they'd rather waste their time posting arguments over something like this than actually contributing something to their own projects (<coughTychecough>), but maybe that's just me.

For better or worse, there's no central MUD regulation authority. News flash: you can call your own MUD whatever the heck you want. Just be aware that, argue theoretically, logically or rhetorically all you like, there is a commonly-accepted definition of "RPI" in this community, and if you use it to label a MUD that doesn't necessarily share those features, be aware that you are in turn misleading potential players. That's all it is: a label to help players understand what your MUD is about.

Reminds me of this one time in torts class where we were discussing this hugely important foundational case from like the 1650's or something... the justices based their legal opinion and judgment on an entirely incorrect logical interpretation of the defendant's verbal statement, concluding that he was threatening bodily harm to another individual when in fact he meant the logical inverse (even if he probably didn't know it at the time, heh - I've never seen so many negatives in one preposition in my entire life). Apparently nobody else but me picked up on this, and so I accosted my professor about it, who gave me the classic "If these guys didn't pick up on it, and the rest of the world in the 400 years since hasn't, who the #### REALLY cares?" look after I wasted a good 15 minutes of classtime explaining the proof to my understandably watery-eyed colleagues.

Moral of the story: erudition certainly has its place, but when the thing you're debating is by definition a quick-and-dirty label provided for the convenience of potential users, for the love of god, get over it already.

So, yeah.

Get a hobby. Er, another hobby.

Q.E.D. Or something.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:52 PM   #54
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Elitism amongst rpi players -

Some posters have expressed that the role-play enthusiasts seem to be condesending to those who don't role-play. Which made me question myself. Do we do that? Why would we do that?

I don't think it is us saying we're better than you.

I think what we're saying is, come try it, but don't come and not rp. I think we're afraid of non-rpers coming and not rping on our games. What sounds like elitism is really people saying, "We're trying to make something here. Stay way if you're planning to topple our sandcastles. Thanks."
[/tangent]
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Old 12-31-2004, 07:49 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Dec. 31 2004,17:52)
Elitism amongst rpi players -

Some posters have expressed that the role-play enthusiasts seem to be condesending to those who don't role-play. Which made me question myself. Do we do that? Why would we do that?
[/tangent]
I was one of the people saying something like that, and if you're referring to my post(s), you're misrepresenting me slightly.  (Not intentionally, I'm sure.)

I'm not saying there condescension from role-playing enthusiasts.

I'm saying there is often condescension from RPI players specifically, especially to enthusiasts of other forms of roleplay that are not the so-called RPI.  Often doesn't mean all RPI players, but it's certainly enough of them that post on these forums to merit a notice of the pattern.

If you'd like an example of what I'm talking about, please see Dunestalker's post just a few above this one.
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Old 01-01-2005, 03:43 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 31 2004,19:49)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Dec. 31 2004,17:52)
Elitism amongst rpi players -

Some posters have expressed that the role-play enthusiasts seem to be condesending to those who don't role-play. Which made me question myself. Do we do that? Why would we do that?
[/tangent]
I was one of the people saying something like that, and if you're referring to my post(s), you're misrepresenting me slightly.  (Not intentionally, I'm sure.)

I'm not saying there condescension from role-playing enthusiasts.

I'm saying there is often condescension from RPI players specifically, especially to enthusiasts of other forms of roleplay that are not the so-called RPI.  Often doesn't mean all RPI players, but it's certainly enough of them that post on these forums to merit a notice of the pattern.

If you'd like an example of what I'm talking about, please see Dunestalker's post just a few above this one.
I mostly see non-RPIers sitting around and whining that their muds aren't RPIs when it's an acronym that is used to define a completely different type of mud. There is no elitism. Nobody said RPIs are better, they are different. Calling that elitism is like accusing ice-cream of elitism for tasting different than cake. Bad ice-cream! How dare you! Everything should taste the same so we can have a borring little world with no variety! I'm sorry, but that's not how it is. There are RPIs, there are RP muds, there are hack-and-slash muds, there are MUSHES, there are lots of types, people can choose which ones they want to play, stop trying to pretend to be different than they are(which only gains dissadisfied players who leave once they quickly figure it out) and be happy in what they are and try to gain players that like playing that type of mud.
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Old 01-01-2005, 03:50 AM   #57
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I gave up playing the "Is it or isn't it an RPI" game a long time ago. It's like JOSHUA playing global thermonuclear war with itself in War Games. The only way to win is not to play. I've embraced the MUSHiness of the games I run, but I'm happy to consider them homes for immersive and intensive roleplaying without trying to squeeze them into the RPI label.
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Old 01-02-2005, 01:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by
There are RPIs, there are RP muds, there are hack-and-slash muds, there are MUSHES, there are lots of types, people can choose which ones they want to play, stop trying to pretend to be different than they are(which only gains dissadisfied players who leave once they quickly figure it out) and be happy in what they are and try to gain players that like playing that type of mud.
Exactly. It's not an elitist attitude as much as it's: "Get your definition straight."

Be proud of what you are no matter what others say and announce it to the world. Maybe it is those of us who realize it that end up coming off like we're elitists.

No dammit, it's the type of game I like and I don't like it when others can't get the the typing correct or use the typing in some odd form of misrepresentation.

If your game is a hack and slash, then ****ing call it that. It's not any lesser of a game to those that like them, it's just not my cup of tea and it ticks me off when I see a game represented as such and go and find out it's not.

It'd be like someone calling a FPS game an RPG or a Puzzle game.

If I'm the type that likes Puzzle games and I go buy a game that labels itself a Puzzle game, that's what I expect to get...not an RPG or FPS game.

I'm not entirely sure that I'm being clear in what I mean here, but it's the best example that I can think of offhand and I'm a little intoxicated.
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Old 01-02-2005, 05:13 AM   #59
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So what do you call a mud where there is intensive roleplay, as opposed to occaisional roleplay, but where there is not permadeath

and what do you call a mud that is all things as defined in the previous posts definitions of an RPI but perhaps has an ooc channel so that players can communicate about non game related things

BARPIBWAE?

Basically Almost RolePlay Intensive But With Added Enhancements

or maybe its an ARPIBJNQTY

Almost RolePlay Intensive But Just Not Quite There Yet

I bet Ickywhatshisname is starting to regret ever mentioning those three letters in his/her initial post. Btw hope you did manage to find a game you like, can be extremely hard finding just the right one.
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Old 01-02-2005, 09:00 AM   #60
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Tell me how can your roleplay be intense when you have no fear of dying with the character you are roleplaying, it's an out-of-character influence that WILL influence your roleplay. How would an actor feel if he was playing the role of a humble warrior, (for example William Wallace in braveheart) but knew he could not die? How could he portray the role then? Would it be as believable if William Wallace truly could shoot fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse? Of course not. That's why there are certain elements that make an RPI an RPI, these elements are intense, without permadeath you cannot call yourself RPI hence the word intense, you are just a roleplaying mud.

You said something about an OOC channel too? Well that's the same deal, anyone who wants to use an OOC channel instead of staying in character at all times is not intense enough for an RPI. It's simple as that, you want to talk about non-game related things visit the mud forum or go to IRC, I made an IRC channel way back for Armageddon and now it's pretty commonplace, even though I rarely visit it now, why have channels in a roleplaying mud? It detracts from the virtual game world, and the believability that you are in a different realm, playing out this novel. Anyways, I have played lots of muds in my time and RPI is the pinnacle, even though it may sound elitist, do whatever is entertaining and fun for you..When I was 12 I loved going around killing mobs and playing GodWars muds, but now I'm a bit more mature and grown up and I think that's why I eventually ascended to the RPI genre. Good day.

-Del
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