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Old 10-21-2003, 01:24 AM   #1
Sarolite
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Unhappy

I would just like to get opinions from people regarding a situation that one of my characters may find herself in.

This is all rumor and speculation, note, but rumor has it that someone is planning to rape one of my characters IC on one of the muds I play. Personally, I feel that this is a valid rp topic, but I feel that he should ask for my permission or input OOC before going through with it. I ask myself what I would say if asked, and I think I would allow it if there was some IC reason for it other than "my character hasn't slept with anyone in years." (Revenge against my character's significant other, in the progress of a robbery, who knows...)

Then of course there is the matter that the person(s) involved are, to the best of my knowledge, minors IRL (except for me). That makes things strange, to say the least. How far do I knowingly let a minor take such a situation with my character, particularly if she is not "in control" of the situation IC?

I'm feeling somewhat confused. Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:02 AM   #2
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It's a tricky situation, even if both involved were adults. I'd think that if it doesn't violate the would-be rapist's understood history as a character (this is why biographies are a good idea, setting expectations for how the character would likely behave), then the rape can happen ICly. However, because of the OOC baggage that can go along with something like this, if the victim is at all OOCly uncomfortable/upset with the situation, then the would-be rapist should just have the act take place after fade-out, as it were. There's no need for a play-by-play posefest of the rape act if the victim doesn't want to participate. Just agree that it happened and move on.

Regardless: Get the staff involved in what happens next. This sort of activity has the potential to cause a lot of animosity, so it should be closely monitored to ensure fairness and sensitivity.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:33 AM   #3
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Then of course there is the matter that the person(s) involved are, to the best of my knowledge, minors IRL (except for me).

This is precisely why I'd avoid anything resembling that sort of situation. Age is very difficult to prove one way or another on the 'Net. It's also been my impression as an administrator that minors are far more likely to offer or desire various forms of sexual scenarios on a MUD, and therefore the probability is higher that you're interacting sexually with a minor. (The same argument implies that you have a higher than average chance of offering unhealthy attention to someone with an obsession with rape.)

Put another way, contemplate you (or the game) receiving an email from a parent.
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Old 10-21-2003, 11:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Oct. 21 2003,01:33)
Then of course there is the matter that the person(s) involved are, to the best of my knowledge, minors IRL (except for me).

This is precisely why I'd avoid anything resembling that sort of situation.  Age is very difficult to prove one way or another on the 'Net.  It's also been my impression as an administrator that minors are far more likely to offer or desire various forms of sexual scenarios on a MUD, and therefore the probability is higher that you're interacting sexually with a minor.  (The same argument implies that you have a higher than average chance of offering unhealthy attention to someone with an obsession with rape.)

Put another way, contemplate you (or the game) receiving an email from a parent.
The upset parent issue is probably the least of your worries here, actually. I can't remember ever receiving an email from an angry parent who had a child upset that their character had suffered a violent death or a maiming injury - nor have I received any emails from parents upset about virtual sex.

The problems are almost always going to involve: The virtual rapist, the victim, and the victim's circle of online friends. Overrule the incident when it's IC for the virtual rapist and you might get criticized as a prude. Allow it to stand, and you run the risk of angering the victim and their friends.

This actually happened on OtherSpace a year or so ago. The staff was involved in the decision to allow the incident to take place, the actual rape happened "offscreen," being suggested rather than spelled out in detail, and it was within the parameters of the demented character who committed the crime - on a planet where violence of all kinds is pretty commonplace, with no real law enforcement to do anything about it.

We upset some people, no doubt about it. It's a harrowing experience, and it absolutely should raise concerns and be handled with the greatest of care. But this sort of thing *can* be seen as a consequence of a player's actions - not that they're asking for it, by any means, but if you get involved in activities with a character that has such proclivities, you *do* run certain risks.

As an administrator, to prevent this sort of thing, you can simply ban sexual activity of all kinds outright. I did that for the first few years of OtherSpace. Utter folly. You're still going to have people hiding in their IC rooms, having consensual keyboard sex. If you're going to ban sex, you might as well ban violence too, and declare your MUD as Rated G - but people are still going to have sex. You can't stop them.

The best thing to do is develop a policy for handling this sort of thing, make sure the staff is involved, and write a disclaimer for your players that the management of the game shouldn't be held responsible for the bad things other players might do to them - and spell out that it's possible that bad things really can happen, from vicious beatings to stabbings to muggings to rapes (although you should have a clause saying it is recommended that actual acts of such violence should take place offscreen).

Bottom line: As with any highly charged emotional issue mixed with people who can be extremely sensitive - sometimes hypersensitive - think carefully and involve staff if it comes up. Even the virtual rapist needs to consider the OOC consequences of their actions, and how they might be harassed for their behavior - even if it's totally in-character.
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Old 10-21-2003, 11:20 AM   #5
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One possible solution to this problem: The detailed fade to black, which you would have complete control over. Here's the scene:

>Meandude tugs down his pants and throws you against the wall.

This is your chance to end it without the details...

>You whimper and cry, tears running down your eyes, as Meandude molests you mercilessly. After he finishes, you slump to the ground, your battered body trembling violently, and crumple into a heap.

The end. YOU have decided that he has finished. YOU have decided that your character didn't like it, and YOU have decided the result of the ordeal. You can do this however you like..depending on if your character would put up a fight, or if you'd faint (if your game's code allows your character to black out, thus depriving Meandude of any satisfaction in knowing that you actually saw anything that he's doing, if he bothers at all by that point).

I've used this type of fade in intimate scenes with my own characters, though none involved rape. But an "enjoyable" fade can always be rewritten to imply an "unenjoyable" fade.

If Meandude tries to do it again, then you just add another ending of your own device. Rinse, repeat, until Meandude gets bored and goes on to bother someone else.

That's the magic of text.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:40 AM   #6
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I agree on that its up to you how you react on a situation. Something else I have been wondering. If you get married IC with someone, how far exactly would you go. To what extent would you roleplay the honeymoon. Surely it could be done with taste and so forth, but what if you are married/engaged or have a girl/boyfriend in real life, how does it affect your real life and to what extent would you go without feeling guilty?
To what extent can you justify your actions...
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Old 10-22-2003, 12:44 PM   #7
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Since age can't be verified, it's best to assume that all parties involved are minors and acting out any kind of sexually explicit act could be grounds for a lawsuit or perhaps a little jail time.

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

By acting out some rape fantasy, that sounds like you both have, both parties are contributing to a behavior that is disgusting, personally violating and morally corrupt.

Should either party begin to entertain this idea of rape as being something "cool" to do to someone in real life and you helped this person mentally act out this sexual assault, giving that person the idea that raping someone is OK and that the victim will shed a few tears and then just get up and walk away, then you are as much to blame, at least morally, if not legally.

If anyone portrays any kind of sexual assault or rape, the incident should be reported to your system administrators and the offending party permanently banned from the game.
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Old 10-22-2003, 01:06 PM   #8
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Heh, that's bull**** Grendal. If people want to roleplay that out, that is their business, actors and actresses have done it on the screen, and they are just acting, not really doing it. Here there is really the same concept, roleplaying isn't doing it or telling someone it's okay. If you want you say we will condone people for roleplaying a rape situation then let us condone all players who roleplay extremely violent situations in combat. Most muds who are extreme roleplay muds have the warning that there are adult themes and situations on the mud, and if you are younger then 18 oh well, it isn't our vault. So if some aspiring, ambitious young roleplayer wants to play out a rape situation and the other party agrees to it, let them have their fun, if it is fun for them, then the staff of the mud has done their job.

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Old 10-22-2003, 02:12 PM   #9
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Question

Grendal, let's see what happens when we change a few words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Since age can't be verified, it's best to assume that all parties involved are minors and acting out any kind of violent act could be grounds for a lawsuit or perhaps a little jail time.

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

By acting out some violent fantasy, that sounds like you both have, both parties are contributing to a behavior that is disgusting, personally violating and morally corrupt.

Should either party begin to entertain this idea of violence as being something "cool" to do to someone in real life and you helped this person mentally act out this physical assault, giving that person the idea that attacking someone is OK and that the victim will shed a few tears and then just get up and walk away, then you are as much to blame, at least morally, if not legally.

If anyone portrays any kind of physical assault or violence, the incident should be reported to your system administrators and the offending party permanently banned from the game.
I'm always amazed that people readily accept fantasies of violent assault, but suddenly become extremely irate when it comes to sexual assault. If you aren't capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, you shouldn't be fantasizing period. And if you are capable, there's no harm done between consenting parties.
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Old 10-22-2003, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,11:44)
By acting out some rape fantasy, that sounds like you both have, both parties are contributing to a behavior that is disgusting, personally violating and morally corrupt.
What's the harm if two consenting adult players OOC agree to the rape (obviously IC, one party wouldn't). The rape doesn't even have to take place, they just agree that it did and RP accordingly.

Anyway, one time a player without my consent tried to RP a sexual assualt on me, so I just RP'ed that I began to sodomize him. It ended rather quickly.
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:01 PM   #11
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How about you begin with the rape scenerio and then end it with one boy castrating the other boy, and then just RP accordingly.

I guess you two boys will figure it all out.


Do the words MINOR & RAPE mean anything to you at all ?

Are you all so disgustingly obscene that portraying a rape is the only thing that gets you off.

Rape is not something pleasant.....people actually try to avoid it in real life. It's not something two consenting adults (or unknown minors) in this case would ever consent to.

If you feel that your character needs to be raped to give you some reason to cry in your RP or seek revenge on the person that raped you, then by all means, play out your little twisted rape.

I hope one day you can be at the recieving end of your fantasy. A nice husky man throwing you down on the floor, kicking your ribs until you cough blood, then slamming your face into the concrete until you are nearly unconscious. While still alive, you feel something penetrating. The stink and sweat of some other body upon yours, violating you and whispering in your ear "You know you want it".

Feel free to use that in your RP.

RP = Repugnant Puke
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,16:01)
How about you begin with the rape scenerio and then end it with one boy castrating the other boy, and then just RP accordingly.

I guess you two boys will figure it all out.


Do the words MINOR & RAPE mean anything to you at all ?

Are you all so disgustingly obscene that portraying a rape is the only thing that gets you off.

Rape is not something pleasant.....people actually try to avoid it in real life. It's not something two consenting adults (or unknown minors) in this case would ever consent to.

If you feel that your character needs to be raped to give you some reason to cry in your RP or seek revenge on the person that raped you, then by all means, play out your little twisted rape.

I hope one day you can be at the recieving end of your fantasy. A nice husky man throwing you down on the floor, kicking your ribs until you cough blood, then slamming your face into the concrete until you are nearly unconscious.  While still alive, you feel something penetrating. The stink and sweat of some other body upon yours, violating you and whispering in your ear "You know you want it".

Feel free to use that in your RP.

RP = Repugnant Puke
People avoid hacking and slashing each other in real life too - yet they do it to each other in these games. That doesn't make them morally bankrupt. Clearly, Grendal, you're someone who falls under the category of "disturbed by such behavior," and your sensitivity would need to be taken into account.

But don't condemn people who feel mature enough to handle it.
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Are you all so disgustingly obscene that portraying a rape is the only thing that gets you off.

Rape is not something pleasant.....people actually try to avoid it in real life. It's not something two consenting adults (or unknown minors) in this case would ever consent to.
I'm trying to understand what you mean here -- if it's consensual, it's obviously not rape. So you must mean that rape fantasies are unpleasant. But that view is ignorant and imposes one's own standard of fantasy on others. In fact, non-consensuality is almost the norm amongst sexual fantasies in the far east, to the point where many categorical systems rate the amount of consensual sex in their porn.

At any rate, I find it simply amazing that you are so much against sexual assault when you freely posted a log in which you physically threatened and attacked someone for cheating on you.

And so I ask: Why is violence so acceptable to you and yet this is off-limits? Where is the line between sexual and physical assault?
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,08:44)
By acting out some rape fantasy, that sounds like you both have, both parties are contributing to a behavior that is disgusting, personally violating and morally corrupt.
As the originator of this thread, I would like to say definatively that I do not have a fantasy of being raped. I came here for serious input and suggestions, not to have people tell me what my sexual fantasies are.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,13)
Are you all so disgustingly obscene that portraying a rape is the only thing that gets you off.
The objective of this is not to "get off," as you so eloquently state it. In fact, I'm not sure what the objective is, being the victim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,13)
If you feel that your character needs to be raped to give you some reason to cry in your RP or seek revenge on the person that raped you, then by all means, play out your little twisted rape.
You're missing the point of this all together, I'm not looking to get her raped, I am stating that someone is looking to rape her. How she deals with it will be determined by who does it, how violent it is, and how her significant other reacts to the situation, among other things. Revenge and crying are not generally her way, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Grendal @ Oct. 22 2003,13)
I hope one day you can be at the recieving end of your fantasy. A nice husky man throwing you down on the floor, kicking your ribs until you cough blood, then slamming your face into the concrete until you are nearly unconscious.  While still alive, you feel something penetrating. The stink and sweat of some other body upon yours, violating you and whispering in your ear "You know you want it".
Feel free to use that in your RP.
RP = Repugnant Puke
I am sorry for whatever experience you have had, or known of, that makes you this angry. However, please refrain from wishing real life harm upon others. It's unpleasant, unfriendly, and not productive.
I know people who have gotten raped, gotten pregnant from a rape even. Trust me, I understand that it is a serious issue, which is exactly why I think it's a valid issue to explore in roleplay. If played properly, it can spark a flame so big that the mud would never be quite the same... From her significant other, his friends, the lawmen and paladins, the single women who frequent the city where it happens... My character would be emotionally changed for life, and be dealing with those issues in the midst of what would most likely become a large manhunt.
I came here to see if other people felt the same way on the matter, and while I appreciate input, many of your comments are uncalled for.
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Old 10-23-2003, 07:56 AM   #16
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I think most of the more serious issues have been addressed, including the ethical issues regarding the possibility of your RP buddy being a teenager or younger.

However, at the age of 13 I was mature enough to handle and discuss a roleplay situation that involved rape. Age isn't necessarily a factor, and as someone stated, the internet provides enough text or otherwise fantasy of that nature without the need for a MUD doing it.

The solution to your 'problem'? Communicate! Talk to the person in question, ask if he is planning this (try not to sound angry, but inquisitive) and if you decide within yourself that it's something that could work very well for your roleplay, see to making suggestions that together you can work with.

As for the administration, don't get them involved. It either is or is not acceptable on the MUD in question. If in doubt, they would tell you not to do it anyway, incase other parties got unintentionally involved.

You may very well find out that the player in question has no desire for anything other than to be able to include a 'He committed rape and consequently went about reforming his life' line in his character history.

Then again, he might want to know your address.

Thain.
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Old 10-23-2003, 05:11 PM   #17
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I doubt that Grendal is the only person who has strong feelings about the issue.  If something like a rape is going to be done, I think all of the players need to give consent (not all characters).  There are people who have lived through the real thing who could be traumatized by participating in, or even witnessing, a reenactment.  Because I believe they have as much right as anyone to enjoy playing a RP game, I think that any rape scene done should be in a fairly private place with the consent of all players.

I don't believe that every person who enjoys playing a rapist is likely to do the same thing in the real world, I'd have a hard time trusting someone who did.
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:09 PM   #18
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Interesting discussion.  I think one very important point has not yet been brought up.  

The number differs depending on whether you look at reported rape or estimated total counts for rape, but approximately 1/4 of all women in the United States have been victims of sexual assault at some point in their life (rape, and attempted rape, and marital rape).  One out of seven female college students have been raped.  There were more women injured by rapists in 1989 alone than Marines wounded by the enemy in all of World War II.*  

Rape is believed to be the most common physical assault crime committed, based on estimates looking at the number of unreported rapes through the victimization survey.  In other words, more people have been impacted directly by sexual crimes than violent crimes.  This means that there is a difference between playing out violent role-play scenarios and playing out sexual assault role-play scenarios.  One is much more likely to hit home with someone participating than the other.

I'm not advocating for doing it or not doing it.  I do think that whatever decision is made, it needs to be very inclusive, of both the participants, the IC significant other (role-playing about a spouse being raped could be very traumatic if related back to a real life situation), and the administration of the game.  Keep in mind that victims of rape struggle with regaining a sense of control over their life.  If anyone that you bring into an IC rape situation has personal experience with sexual assault, not having any control over whether that scenario happens or not could be very hard for them to handle.

*More Rape Stats for Those Interested
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Old 11-11-2003, 10:23 PM   #19
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Syrinx @ foo)
Rape is believed to be the most common physical assault crime committed, based on estimates looking at the number of unreported rapes through the victimization survey. In other words, more people have been impacted directly by sexual crimes than violent crimes. This means that there is a difference between playing out violent role-play scenarios and playing out sexual assault role-play scenarios. One is much more likely to hit home with someone participating than the other.
I think I need a bit more convincing than this -- Perhaps if you could site some sources that state rape is "believed to be the most common physical assault crime committed"?

In my own searching, I found:
The 2002 FBI Crime Index:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
As in previous years, aggravated assaults accounted for the largest share of the violent crime distribution, 62.7 percent. Robbery made up 29.5 percent of the total; forcible rape, 6.7 percent; and murder, 1.1 percent. (Based on Table 1.)
Now the Governor's Office of Child Abuse and Domestic Violence Services cites a report that states "For every rape reported to police, three of ten rapes go unreported.(3)", which is cited from "(3) (The Commonwealth Fund, Commission on Women's Health, Violence Against Women in the United States: A Comprehensive Background Paper. November 1995; 43.)" Multiplying by that ratio, we do not surpass the 62.7% statistic of aggravated assault.

Nevertheless, I do not think that the "It's more common" argument stands up to scrutiny when the shear amount of mud violence is accounted for. As I'm sure most will agree, physical assault is far more common than sexual assault on muds. I don't think I'm stretching reason to say that it is much more likely that someone who has been physically assaulted in real life will be on the receiving end of physical assault role play than it is likely for the same scenario with sexual assault because of this. When dealing with greater numbers arguments, we have to look at both sides to be fair.
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:52 AM   #20
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Please do me a favor:
If you see me degenerate into someone so pathetic they go to MUDs for their sexlife, please put a bullet in my head.

Thanks in advance
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