Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > Mud Development and Administration > Advanced MUD Concepts
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-29-2003, 06:55 PM   #1
Derk
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19
Derk is on a distinguished road
Thumbs down

I like combat, I like battle, etc. I once told someone, I have good news and I have bad news... The good news is, Achaea is the best there is for pvp combat. The bad news is, Achaea is the best there is for pvp combat.

Does anyone have any good working ideas for combat systems that haven't been implemented yet?

I know what I want has to exist, and can be done... I just need to think very hard and talk to people about it.

I need stratigy.
Easy to get into.
No need to use triggers or macros.
Can be applied equally to monsters as well as players.
Slow paced is ok.

I have my own codebase from scratch, so don't think about limitations faced by your existing codebases. And my mobiles are VERY intelligent and work on their own thread.. they can communicate and work together fine.

I would appreciate help. Thanks.
Derk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2003, 09:23 PM   #2
Spazmatic
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 103
Spazmatic is on a distinguished road
There is a huge variety of choices. You should be a bit more specific about what you want from it (and yes, limitations as well... they exist).

For example:
Coordinate system or room system, or something else altogether? This isn't a small decision.
Turn-based? Action points? Timer-based? Unlimited spammage? Something else?
High lethality? Low lethality?
Defense oriented? Offense oriented?
Damage oriented? Agility/parry oriented? Armor oriented?

Etc... But, seriously, there are certainly ways to implement new, strategic combat systems. However, you face problems with people learning it, often insanely high CPU usage, often extreme effort both to code it initially, and to design equipment to support it (after all, a really strategic system needs complex properties for all materials), etc...
Spazmatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 03:26 AM   #3
Derk
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19
Derk is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Spazmatic @ Oct. 29 2003,20:23)
For example:
Coordinate system or room system, or something else altogether? This isn't a small decision.
Turn-based? Action points? Timer-based? Unlimited spammage? Something else?
High lethality? Low lethality?
Defense oriented? Offense oriented?
Damage oriented? Agility/parry oriented? Armor oriented?

you face problems with people learning it, often insanely high CPU usage, often extreme effort both to code it initially, and to design equipment to support it (after all, a really strategic system needs complex properties for all materials)
Easy to learn.. so no coordinate system.

Unlimited spammage.. no. Action points sounds cool... i've never seen anything like that. I assume as time goes by you get more action points, which allows you to do different moves depending on how many action poitns you have? I do have the mechanics in place to support a turn based system if I want.. when someone engages battles the room turns into melee mode. You can pick some moves, and they all happen when the turn happens. Truth be told, I HATE having to rely on triggers/macros.

I once played a game called Dragon's Gate.. which was cool before AOL bought it and nurfed the entire game. Combat was relaly fast paced... Battles would last 30 seconds max... so no one used triggers cause you couldn't risk it sending a command you didn't want to do.

I like low lethality toward experienced players. High lethality toward inexperienced players.

Defense orientated has always been fun.

I don't have hitpoints. I have concussion and endurance level. Dodging attacks uses up lots of endurance, as you get tired you defend less and can't attack so well... Concussion level is lowered by hits to the head, or bleeding and whatnot. In theory if someone rips out your heart you have a few seconds to take some action as your concussion level drops rapidly.

CPU usage is not a concern. I have been coding over 15 years. Items have no limitations when it comes to properties. They just have a list of key->value pairs.

set broadsword weight 15

Would make a new attribute named weight and set it to 15. I could then modify all the scripts that care about the weight of an item to look at that without restarting the mud So complex attributes are not a problem..

Are there resources where these type of systems are written out and I can read them?
Derk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 06:52 AM   #4
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Personally I went for a coordinate-based system, as I consider it far superior to rooms when it comes to combat. It provides an excellent way to handle missile weapons, as well as weapon reach (for melee combat). It also allows players to utilise extensive footwork - circling, advancing, retreating, etc - which should play a vital part of combat, but which is rarely simulated in a mud. The learning curve isn't too bad, as long as you keep the interface fairly straightforward and provide the player with some sort of automated assistance.

Regarding the "action point" and "timer-based" methods, I found it better to combine the two. The former helps offset the problems of lag and typing speed, while the latter prevents people from saving up hundreds of action points and then throwing off a lightning-fast flurry of attacks - although people do still tend to save up action points, particularly as I allow them to act simultaneously with 3 independent body locations, and this can result in some very fast and furious fights, eg:

You perform the technique known as 'Coiled Viper Watches Prey'.
You pull your rapier in close to your body.
You perform the technique known as 'Striking Viper'.
You deftly stab your rapier at Blight!
Blight parries the blow with his left shortsword!
Blight raises his right shortsword into a defensive guard.
Blight performs the technique known as 'Swaying Dance of the Snake'.
Blight weaves his left shortsword around his body in a hypnotic defensive motion
You bash your tower shield into Blight's chest!
You lash out with a front kick at Blight.
Blight parries the blow with his left shortsword!


Spazmatic also makes a good point about equipment - it should be carefully balanced and (particularly if your mud has an emphasis on combat) should allow for a wide range of tactics. Weapon range/reach, offensive/defensive bonuses, protection rating for covered locations against different types of damage (for worn equipment such as clothing and armour), encumbrance penalties, etc - these are all things you could take into account.

You should also remember that different weapons should be used differently, and in theory every item should be usable as a weapon (even if it doesn't make a particularly good one). But IMO making weapons distinct from each other is very important - I find it very offputting when I pick up a longbow and discover that it works exactly the same as a sword, with just a different damage message! But when each weapon requires a whole new approach to combat, it provides players with plenty of new things to try (while allowing the inexperienced players to stick with a nice simple weapon).

But don't forget, there is no "best" combat system. Every player likes something different, so choose your audience and develop accordingly. If you want to appeal to a wide range of players, then you may want to stick with something very simple. If you're trying to appeal to hardcore PKers then you're probably going to need something with a lot more depth.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 01:14 PM   #5
erdos
 
Posts: n/a
As someone who has had the great priviledge recently of dabbling in master Kavir's combat system, I can assure you it is far superior to anything else that is currently out in the mud community, in all aspects except possibly learning curve.

Ask yourself this: if you are looking for a MUD where you will devote hundreds of real life hours, is it not rather anal retentive to insist the combat system can be completely mastered in 5 minutes, as opposed to 2 hours?

If you insist that combat systems be fully masterable within a few minutes, then that, my friend, is the source of the seeming lack of combat systems. How diverse can you possibly be when you have to make it accessible to a 2 year old?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 05:08 PM   #6
Derk
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19
Derk is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (erdos @ Oct. 30 2003,12:14)
If you insist that combat systems be fully masterable within a few minutes, then that, my friend, is the source of the seeming lack of combat systems. How diverse can you possibly be when you have to make it accessible to a 2 year old?
That is a really.. really.. really.. good point...

You know.. i might be able to get the best of both worlds... starts really simply and multiplies in complexity..

If I start off with... you can pick attack stances from really defensive to risky offensive.. You also have a limited amount of endurance. Really defensive stances use lots of endurance when you are attacked and reduce damage. Highly risky offensive stances use lots of endurance when you attack and you do more damage when you do.

Kind of sits you between a rock and a hard place.

What is wrong with having large cordinate based areas and small enclosed areas without cordinates?

Maybe complexity is a good thing.. but what is wrong with giving a decent learning curve as you progress?
Derk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 05:57 AM   #7
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Obviously the ideal solution is to have a decent learning curve, the real problem is how to go about achieving it - particularly if your combat system is very different to what is already out there, because you're going to have to cater to people who are used to certain approaches to combat. Now if people are used to standard Diku, where you type "kill" then go make a coffee, how are you going to give them a smooth introduction to a coordinate-based non-automated combat system?

You could provide them with an alternative automated option (perhaps have it only work with simple weapons), which allows them to fight, but not at the same level of proficiency as those who take full advantage of the system. The only problem with that is that you're creating an "inferior" combat system which lazy players will use as a crutch, and then trying to wean them off it, and I'm honestly not sure if that's a good thing in the long run. Personally I'd prefer to just explain to them the basics in simple terms, and let them come to grips with the complexities over time.

Also, unless combat is a very important part of the game, I wouldn't recommend introducing players to different stances right at the start. Just stick them in a standard stance and let them uncover the others when they feel ready. Personally I'd be tempted to try and handle as many parts of the system that way as possible - I'm not in favour of creating a simplified "alternative" combat system for newbies, but I do think you should keep things as simple as possible to start with. You could even have some sort of "mud school" for combat which players can choose to go through when/if they wish, which has different stages of complexity - that way players have a way to learn the advanced aspects if they wish, while those who aren't interested can get by with the basics (particularly for muds in which you don't need to fight to progress).

And there is nothing wrong with mixing coordinate and non-coordinate based locations, although the latter will simplify combat (which can be a good thing, if you're don't want to introduce too many options at once).
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 10:40 AM   #8
OnyxFlame
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 153
OnyxFlame is on a distinguished road
Post

I was thinking of doing a system with a set of weapon skills, and "moves" which use those weapon skills. Weapon skills would be easier to learn (players couldn't hoard them because they'd be so common), whereas moves you'd hafta be taught, or perhaps learn from quests or something. Moves would of course be skills as well, just with nifty names like KaVir mentioned earlier heh.

Now here's the kicker. What if you could make an alias to automatically combine a few moves, BUT then that combination was treated exactly like another skill? At low skill, you might execute each move perfectly, but bobble long enough in between them to leave yourself open to attack. Strategies could pop up about when to use a combo and when not to, as well as which combos were more effective for different purposes.

Here's another thought that's somewhere in between coordinate and non-coordinate combat. When 2 parties encounter each other, have positioning in the parties determine who can attack who and so on. Party members could be put into a grid (front,left position for instance), and depending on your weapon, you'd be able to attack enemies in certain other positions. Maybe you position your best swordfighter on the left end of the front row and then discover when you run into critters that their strongest fighter is in front of your weaker fighter, who will soon be toast unless you happen to have an archer or a mage behind him that can kill the bad guy before it decapitates your buddy.

Just some half-asleep and not fully worked out thoughts.
OnyxFlame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 11:52 AM   #9
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

And now for something completely different. =)

I'm not focusing on anything even remotely resembling realism for a game that I'm currently designing. The game is not set in the physical world, and the player is not even controlling humanoid characters. This is just a friendly reminder that combat does not have to be neat moves or even "attacks" in the sense that you beat on someone until you kill or disable them.

Combat in my system is based upon a few of factors: A terrain grid (whose size and shape is yet to be determined, if it's constant at all), and the 'spirit' that you're controlling. A spirit is always phased towards one of the properties of space, time, water, air, fire, or earth, and each terrain tile corresponds to one of these properties as well. Combat essentially consists of using abilities to damage the opponent, but the real strategy comes from manipulating your tiles into patterns that will allow you to maximize damage output and minimize damage input.

For example, let's say that you have the ability to summon a rabid dolphin that will swim from your current tile and do damage to the opponent. This ability would be restricted in that you can not execute it unless you have water tiles connecting the tile you and the opponent are currently standing on. Furthermore you can only execute this water ability when you are phased to that particular property. As such, you are completely vulnerable to whatever it is that trumps water. Also, you might be unable to move to some tiles while phased to a certain element: If you are phased to fire and step on a water tile, you would take heavy damage.

Other abilities might do damage and manipulate tiles all in one go, such as the case where you let loose a spiral of fire that will set ablaze each tile it touches on its path. Some patterns would be extremely beneficial, so one might not even care to direct these attacks at the opponent. One ability might require the entire outside ring of the field of tiles be set to a current property as a precondition for its execution.
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


New Combat Systems - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MUD Combat systems Hadoryu Advanced MUD Concepts 156 08-21-2006 03:59 AM
RP and Coded Systems Brody Roleplaying and Storytelling 11 06-04-2005 08:52 PM
PvP Looting systems Ytrewtsu MUD Coding 9 11-17-2002 10:28 PM
Weather systems Ashon Advanced MUD Concepts 16 09-26-2002 04:28 PM
Operating Systems Samson Tavern of the Blue Hand 11 08-10-2002 03:46 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014