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Old 08-19-2004, 11:24 PM   #61
Hardestadt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Aug. 20 2004,06:15)
From Reyas: She also, technically speaking, did not lose lessons either. She spent her credits on lessons, then spent her lessons on guild skills, then due to her own actions, was booted out of the guild. When leaving a guild, you lose your guild skills.

From Hardestadt: If you invest those credits in lessons, learn skills and then be an arse and get kicked out of the guild you are subject to lesson loss when you forget the guildskills in question.

As I previously stated, she lost something derived originally from her purchase.

From the_logos: ...player organizations are extremely powerful. They serve to weed out twinks in that they enforce certain basic roleplay standards and simply deny a class to players who aren't fit to play that class. For example, the Druids guild may decide that a particular novice player doesn't have an understanding of what it means to serve and protect nature in Achaea, and so may require that said player go learn and then write a paper on the topic. Being kicked out of the guild before you've progressed to a certain point means you will simply lose your Druid skills entirely.

From this, I gathered that if it is a player's opinion that you do not live up to the standards of your guild, you can be expelled, with consequent loss of skills.

Combining the two, if a player deems you unworthy of guild membership, you will lose some of what you paid for. That's all I've said, and it's consistent with everything in this thread posted by Achaea admins and customers.
Perhaps in line with what you're saying all muds should carry a esrb like warning.

Warning: You game experience may change while playing online.

The MMO nature of muds generally means that yes, other players effect your game experience. This is hardly anything new, having been occuring in muds for decades now.

I don't think anyone is debating that she lost something, but rather that she lost something based on player, not admin actions. Given she received a full refund as part of IRE's great approach to customer service, quibbling over lost lessons is something of a moot point.

Leigh

P.s. Valg, that last statement isn't directed at you.
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Old 08-19-2004, 11:33 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Aug. 19 2004,21:16)
I admit nothing of the sort.

I am not in the habit of trolling, and I would never even have commented to this rather stupid thread unless Jazuela, Threshold and yourself hadnít all in turned baited me. Maybe I should have ignored your trolling, but as you can see I am getting a bit tired of it by now.

<snip>

Apart from that, could you please back up your offensive allegations by some solid evidence? Preferably in the form of links, not quotes taken out of their context, so that the audience can form their own opinion based on the total content of the threads in question. If you cannot do this, do yourself and the rest of us a favour and shut up.
I really can't be bother to do that. It'd involve digging through hundreds of threads which'd take up hours of my time. I have better things to do right now, sorry.

However, given I was the third person to refer to them before you even got onto this thread, I'd like to foward this thread instead. That is, if you accept peer review

Leigh
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Old 08-20-2004, 12:44 AM   #63
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I think the ultimate test of a business model has to lie with the customers. Achaea, Aetolia, and Imperian make money and have very few players launching attacks like this one. Given IRE games' playerbase, that's impressive.

There are also quite a number of people who spend no money at all on IRE games despite playing for years. They're obviously not so disgusted by the system that they feel they cannot compete with those who pay. If this is a crime, who's claiming to be the victim? Disgruntled people like Kimberly don't count; even if you detest Achaea, you can't view her claims as anything but ludicrous.

(Incidentally, I know Threshold used to have a system that amounted to pay for perks. It may have changed, but I'll leave that to the people who know Threshold better than I do.)
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Old 08-20-2004, 12:59 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ Aug. 19 2004,23:24)
I don't think anyone is debating that she lost something, but rather that she lost something based on player, not admin actions.
Actually, what I've been debating is IF she 'lost' anything (which she didn't) then she 'lost' it NOT based on a player, but on herself.
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:20 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cierel @ Aug. 20 2004,10:44)
(Incidentally, I know Threshold used to have a system that amounted to pay for perks. It may have changed, but I'll leave that to the people who know Threshold better than I do.)
Threshold have a once off donation I think.. I dimly recall something about the administration there going so far as telling someone to donate blood so they can pay it, hehe.
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Old 08-20-2004, 04:17 AM   #66
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Just to let people know, the IRE admins getting involved like this is extremely rare. Plenty of people spend loads of money on credits for lessons or artifacts (special thingies, for lack of a better term) only to see them become less useful, sometimes dramatically. No one complains like Kimberly did. I personally have lost plenty of lessons due to changing guilds and haven't batted an eye.
One other thing: She spent what, $70? Isn't the minimum amount you can sue for around $100?
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Old 08-20-2004, 06:06 AM   #67
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I'm pretty shocked that IRE actually refunded someone. Their TOS revolves completely around protecting them from having to do that sort of thing.

Yeah, their credit system is rather scummy, it seems common knowledge by now. In achaea though they recently made it so you only lose 10% of lessons (what you get for credits) instead of 50% if your superiors get ****ed at you. I guess now I know why they did that

If you don't like it, don't play it. Most everyone who puts in a larger investment knows the risks. If most didn't consider it worth it then IRE would be gone by now TOS or not.

And Hardestat, I know Sarapis can deactivate your rapture license at will, but don't you have better things to do than argue for him over this forum
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Old 08-20-2004, 08:04 AM   #68
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Aug. 19 2004,21:16)
Apart from that, could you please back up your offensive allegations by some solid evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ Aug. 19 2004,23:33)
I really can't be bother to do that.
Then you shouldn't have made any sort of claim that assumes truth.
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Old 08-24-2004, 01:21 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (tehScarecrow @ Aug. 20 2004,16:06)
And Hardestat, I know Sarapis can deactivate your rapture license at will, but don't you have better things to do than argue for him over this forum
Mate, don't claim to know about things you obviously know nothing about.

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Then you shouldn't have made any sort of claim that assumes truth.
Why not, exactly? Because I don't feel compelled to spend hours digging through old threads for conspiracy theories?
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Old 08-24-2004, 02:14 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (tehScarecrow @ Aug. 20 2004,06:06)
And Hardestat, I know Sarapis can deactivate your rapture license at will, but don't you have better things to do than argue for him over this forum †
Right. Because we want to get sued for contract violations. Clearly.

--matt
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Old 08-24-2004, 07:58 AM   #71
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ Aug. 20 2004,08<!--emo&:0)
Then you shouldn't have made any sort of claim that assumes truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ Aug. 24 2004,01:21)
Why not, exactly? Because I don't feel compelled to spend hours digging through old threads for conspiracy theories?
If that's the only way to backup your claims, then yes. If you say, "Look at all the conspiracies!", but then say you "really can't be bothered"to point out concrete evidence of them, your credibility for that claim goes down the tubes. It's just that simple.
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:12 AM   #72
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Over the course of the year I played Achaea, I spent upwards of seven thousand dollars there. I never regretted one penny of it. Iron Realms' environment was more than worth the investment.

The reason I stopped playing Achaea was that I moved to a different Iron Realms game and repeated the process, spending at least that much more over the next year.

1) You can advance in any IRE game for free. It is slower, but it is eminently workable.

2) There are numerous in character means of obtaining the "credits" which can be purchased for real money.

3) The first character in Achaea to reach level 100 spent very little if any real money on the game, using mostly if not entirely in character means of obtaining his power and prestige.

Iron Realms is an ethical company. They're the first choice of entertainment for most of the players of their games. You should take a look at the worlds they offer.
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:18 AM   #73
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Threshold have a once off donation I think.. I dimly recall something about the administration there going so far as telling someone to donate blood so they can pay it, hehe.
A lot of accusations have been levelled at Threshold's admin over the years. Most created or at the very least embellished by a particular group of trolls who seem to think it is their holy mission to ruin the playerbase in general's fun.

As far as Threshold's payment system goes. There is a compulsory payment to 'Register' your Character. Threshold basically becomes pay-for-perks after that. The difference is that Threshold's perks have minimal, if any, affect on the game itself. And NONE of them are required for advancement.

It is expected that players will continue to support the game with donations over the period of their play, but considering we are an 18+ mud, the amount that is expected is hardly one that is not VOLUNTARILY exceeded by almost every player in the game.
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Old 08-25-2004, 04:11 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Maelgrim @ Aug. 25 2004,07:18)
A lot of accusations have been levelled at Threshold's admin over the years. Most created or at the very least embellished by a particular group of trolls who seem to think it is their holy mission to ruin the playerbase in general's fun.
Not really, no, and it was a matter about ownership of the codebase Threshold had been developed upon, and whether he would be allowed to charge anything at all for it. To my knowledge, the issue has been resolved years ago.

I'm sorry you feel people who believe someone who makes money off someone else's work are out to ruin the playerbase's fun. Obviously, if you are driven around in an allegedly stolen car, the cops will stop the vehicule only to ruin your experience, not to check whether the car is the one they are looking for.

I just hope your car never gets stolen, so that you won't be called a troll runing everyone's fun when trying to get it back.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:46 AM   #75
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Achaea is a pretty good mud run by decent people. They have made mistakes in the past, but who hasn't. This comment isn't really to slight them, just to point out a couple of things that they (and other muds like them) should seriously consider when they are accepting money for their services...

1) With players running the clans, any complaints that occur because of "loss of" PAID abilities (such as lessons as one person said), is VERY actionable in a court of law. Especially when it's a 3rd party removing (or altering) the customer's paid product. Because then it's the burden of the service provider to prove that their agents acted properly.

2) With any sort of "payment" for a character, the player then does have some legal ground for character ownership. This means that it may be illegal for your to "nuke" someone who has paid for the character depending on your state.

I'm paraphrasing of course. These are the laws (at least, as I remember them. I could be wrong but I don't think so) from Canada, so they may or may not be different then the states.

Also, it's very important to look at the law and see what you can and cannot place into a contract. For example, a company cannot void a guarantee in a contract. Depending on what state (or even country), you reside in, it may be illegal for you to confiscate their paid product on your server.

But since you refunded Kimberly's money, the point is moot.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:27 AM   #76
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And then there's the EULA, in which the players most likely waived the above.
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:06 PM   #77
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It's not as cut and dry as that. Everyone likes to think that the law is black and white, but it actuallity, it isn't. This is espicially true in small claims court (where these supposed cases would actually take place).

You are selling a car to me "as is". It's stated 5 times in the contract that the car is sold "as is". However, if you neglect to tell me a problem (that you know about) with the car the contract is void and I get my money back.

It can be argued the same way for Achaea. However, because Achaea is allowing a 3rd party to affect the purchased product of a customer, they have to prove that their party actually was justified in their actions.

So, let's say I was the plaintiff in this situation. Let's see how I could argue it to make it look like the car situation above...

Your honour, on Aug 25th I spend $200 us dollars on the game Achaea to obtain 2000 credits for the game. These credits are used to purchase things in game, and since I really like the game, I descided this would be a good investment. I read the EULA, which states that the credits are the property of IRE. I used these credits to purchase lessons, which are used to help my character advance. I descided to join a guild, where I was booted out for my actions. It wasn't clear how, but after I was kicked out, I talked to people who said that the guild leaders there were biased and unfair most of the time (heresay, but still semi-legit in small claims). I personally feel that the service that I purchased was negatively affected by the 3rd party from Iron realms entertainment, who had prior knowledge of their agent's bias, and neglected to tell me in their EULA. I am asking for my money back, as well as the court costs associated with this case.

Here's what the judge has to consider:

1) Being that IRE was not involved, that the only evidence that there was inappropriate action is my own testimony as the plaintiff.

(So, that's one for the plaintiff and basically enough to award the refund of the money, if the judge believes me.)

2) That prior knowledge of the actions "might" have been known to IRE. They of course can definitly argue that they didn't know.

(Comes down to credibility of parties. Pretty much a draw)

3) Consider that IRE is negligent for not examining the player run situations to ensure they are fair and equitable.

(Point for the Plaintiff. It would be unlikely that IRE would spend the thousands to fly whomever to the court case to say they were legitimate.)

4) Consider the impact to each party. IRE has no visible impact (labour costs, etc), where the plantiff does.

(Point for Plaintiff, IRE has no appreicable costs for the assignment of the credits)

5) Stipulated that credits are owned by IRE in the EULA.

(Point for the Defense. BTW, even with IRE owning the credits, they cannot abstractly remove them from players being it is a purchased product.)

6) Logs to show how the character was acting inappropriatly.

(Point for defense, can even win it for them if it's severe enough. Simply not RP'ing the way someone wants you to is not sufficient)

If the defendant was in fact Kimberly, the defense would win for sure. If it wasn't as clear cut, I would have to say the court descision would go to the plaintiff.

The law isn't about who's right and who's wrong. It's about who can say what and how the situation can be twisted. Would this be the best arguement? Probably not. But I'm just thinking about this off the top of my head and could probably come up with something better in time.
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:45 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Alastair @ Aug. 25 2004,04:11)
Not really, no, and it was a matter about ownership of the codebase Threshold had been developed upon, and whether he would be allowed to charge anything at all for it. To my knowledge, the issue has been resolved years ago.

I'm sorry you feel people who believe someone who makes money off someone else's work are out to ruin the playerbase's fun.
See, this would be relevant if it was actually in the context of what I was saying. If you refer to my original post, You'll see that the issue of the codebase was never mentioned. Mostly because I know nothing about it, and don't wish to. It's none of my business, and since the game is still up and (Successfuly) running, I would assume, as you have, that any issues in the past between coders has been resolved.

What I was referring to, as demonstrated by the quote I included, was the PERSONAL attacks and libel levelled against Threshold's admin, (IE, Allegedly telling someone to donate blood to pay the registration fee.) Perpetrated by a group of trolls who, as I said, seem to think they're fulfilling some cosmic destiny by villifying the game and it's staff. (And to a smaller extent, a few of the more renowned players.)

I'm not grinding an axe here, merely clarifying my position so I'm not misquoted again.
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:36 PM   #79
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When you pay to play a mud-type game online, you are paying for time on their server. You aren't paying for anything else. The company has the right to reject your request to "rent time" on their server, and you have the right to cease payment if you find your time is better spent elsewhere.

You aren't paying for a "thing." You aren't paying for copyright rights, you aren't paying for the privilege of having a level 99 warrior character. You're not even paying for your account. It isn't YOUR account. It is owned by the company that allows you to use it in exchange for money. Once the money stops coming, you no longer have access to it. All data contained in the hard drive/server of the company that owns the game, belongs to the company.

The only thing that is your "right" to "own" is the payment information, including your name, address, phone number, credit card number, bank account number if you choose to use check transfers, etc. etc. etc. Your "fantasy life" is not owned by you, nor do you have any "rights" to it. You have only the "right" to use it during the length of your subscription.

In a pay-for-perks-optional game, what you are paying for, again, is time. You are letting them adjust your character's data on your behalf so that you don't have to use your own time doing so yourself. Once that data is adjusted, it is up to you to decide whether or not your character will maintain that adjustment. Whether it's "possessing" a +5 steel katana, or a boost to your strength stat, or a "magnificently crafted steel and adamantum blessed broadsword with a hilt so black it absorbs all light within a 20-league radius." You don't own that - you don't have the "right" to keep it. You can't take it with you, you can't remove it from their database. All you have - is the opportunity to have your character's pfile adjusted to reflect the impression that the character has this thing. Then once he has it - someone can steal it, the character could break it, he could decide never to use it and let it collect dust in a locker, or you as a player could disobey the rules of the game and end up sitebanned as a result, with no refund - because your character DID get this adjustment made to its file, as promised and paid for.
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:56 PM   #80
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Jazuela Im quite confused about your post, you state, and I quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by
In a pay-for-perks-optional game, what you are paying for, again, is time.
Yet tword the end of your post you go on to say that you pay for the adjustments
made to your data, now I can honestly say I dont know how you think, but that is
paying money for something on a game, not for the time. Paying for the time would
mean only one thing, and that is, The only way your money affects your player, is
it allows you to play on their sever. And seeing as how you can play for free on
their server, you are paying for so called "Fantasy" items as you so put it.

Im not here to tell you, that you are incorrect, but that your post conflicts within
its-self.
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