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Old 08-25-2004, 02:35 PM   #81
the_logos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rundvelt @ Aug. 25 2004,12<!--emo&[img
http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]It's not as cut and dry as that. †Everyone likes to think that the law is black and white, but it actuallity, it isn't. †This is espicially true in small claims court (where these supposed cases would actually take place).
Hi there. The law isn't black and white, but this is pretty cut and dried. We've gone over all this extensively with our legal team. We are 100% within our rights to ban players and not refund them, at any time, just like AOL is. The only exception would be kicking people out based on their association with certain protected categories. We couldn't kick someone out because he or she was african-american, for instance. Similarly, the only guarantee we provide is that players will not lose credits. We explicitly state that the real or perceived value of what they spend those credits on may change. Kimberly never lost a single credit, only the product she purchased with those credits.

The analogy our lawyers gave us was going to a carnival and purchasing tickets to play games with. The carnival is completely within its rights to kick you out at any time, with no refund. Similarly, you have no recourse if you're unhappy with what you spend those tickets on.

Anyway, it's not something that's worth debating from my point of view. Our lawyers are experts on the matter and with all due respect, nobody on these forums has anywhere near their level of experience or knowledge on the subject at hand.

--matt
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Old 08-25-2004, 02:43 PM   #82
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This is exactly what I was getting at when I talked about the players being able to remove the fruits of your credits, above. †I understand that IRE can do so as long as they lay out the terms ahead of time- once you break your end of the contract, they aren't obligated to hold up their end. †They can't just walk up and say "We don't like you. †We're taking away the skills your spent your lessons on.", but they can say "The contract states that you must refrain from spamming other players, and according to the definition given, you did that. †We're taking away the skills your spent your lessons on." (Disclaimer: I don't have their contract in front of me, and I'm making up that clause.) †You signed a deal with IRE, and it's like buying any other service from a company. †If I buy an email account (a 'virtual object' as well), and use it to spam people, that company can cancel it and not refund my money.

However, it's not clear why other customers of IRE can strip you of the fruits of what you paid for. †(No, they cannot directly remove credits. †But they can remove a portion of what you used the credits on. †See my two posts on this page for quotes and a more thorough explanation.) †According the the_logos, player guilds are this powerful, and can take these actions without involving an IRE employee. †So who protects the customer from the other customers?

It's not hard to imagine a clique of players who use that authority in a partisan fashion- you **** someone off somehow, they start with the docking. †Games commonly have these sorts of issues in a competitive environment, but in many games, they can't do much beyond social exclusion and having their character compete against yours.

This is especially a concern when the administrator of that game admits that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
"I run a commercial world, but do not charge for access to the game (your options are reasonably limited without ever paying). So, I treat customers and freeloaders differently." (link)
, since presumably the players in the high positions have been around a long time, and are thus reliable and valued customers. †Joe Schmoe (a less obnoxious version of Kimberly in a similar situation) who has spent zero or only a few dollars, and is playing the "relatively limited" game, might have doubts about the security of what they purchased.
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Old 08-25-2004, 02:49 PM   #83
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The laws may vary in Canada, but I seriously doubt it.

Using your "situation" of a carnival they would be required to refund the person's tickets if they were booted out for no reason. This is because the bearer doesn't have a chance to redeem the tickets.

If what your lawyer proposed was actually correct, companies could in fact legitimatly offer goods and services then refuse to supply them. Furinture shops could take the money from the person give them a claims ticket then boot them out of the store.

If your lawyer doesn't think that that is actionable in small claims, he better get back into school.

But I don't want to argue, just telling you to get another lawyer. (The laws might be different in the states who knows?)
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Old 08-25-2004, 02:59 PM   #84
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Using your "situation" of a carnival they would be required to refund the person's tickets if they were booted out for no reason. This is because the bearer doesn't have a chance to redeem the tickets.
I don't know what the law is in that situation, but I'd be shocked if another carnival customer could legally take away your tickets. I'm more puzzled by non-IRE employees wielding that power over a purchased virtual object.
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Old 08-25-2004, 03:05 PM   #85
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Using your "situation" of a carnival they would be required to refund the person's tickets if they were booted out for no reason. This is because the bearer doesn't have a chance to redeem the tickets.
Perhaps in Canada. Not in the States. In fact, I saw big warnings in Vegas this weekend in a nongambling games-type-area that if you misbehave, you'll be chucked out with no opportunity to redeem the tickets you bought for rides. Similarly with Disneyland back when they still sold A-E tickets for rides, etc. Similarly with subscription-based services (who don't have to refund your unused portion of your subscription if you're chucked out), etc. Similarly with bars, who can 86 you at any time regardless of whether you have 10 shots sitting in front of you that you already purchased.

Quote:
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If your lawyer doesn't think that that is actionable in small claims, he better get back into school.
Thanks, but they're very good. http://www.allenmatkins.com/

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Old 08-25-2004, 03:08 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Aug. 25 2004,14:59)
I don't know what the law is in that situation, but I'd be shocked if another carnival customer could legally take away your tickets. †I'm more puzzled by non-IRE employees wielding that power over a purchased virtual object.
They could if that's how the games were set up. For instance, you enter a game and part of the game involves mechanics where you may lose your tickets to other patrons.

However, in no case do players in Achaea have the ability to take what you bought away from them. What you buy is credits. Once you spend those credits, all bets are off. You want to spend them on in-game gold? Ok, but thieves may steal all your gold if you don't take precautionary measures, etc.

Anyway, I don't want to get sucked into a time-wasting discussion on the matter. Until someone sues us and wins, we'll continue operating as we choose to, based on the legal advice we've received from our lawyers, whose opinions are the only ones that tangibly matter to us regarding matters of the law.

--matt
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Old 08-25-2004, 03:48 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Rundvelt @ Aug. 25 2004,14:49)
Using your "situation" of a carnival they would be required to refund the person's tickets if they were booted out for no reason. †This is because the bearer doesn't have a chance to redeem the tickets.
The key to this whole discussion if you read the posts involve "no reason". You will notice that I agreed with you on the issue of Kimberly.

So, maybe there's been a misunderstanding.

So, let me try again. Let's try to read too.

1) A company can be sued for the money a person pays out of pocket for a service or product they denied you without merit.

Now I know you can't possibly deny this.

Now, when it comes down to the "lessons" or whatever the person bought with their credits, the loss is argueable in a court of law. They CAN argue that your agents (Yes, they are your agents because you authorize them to make these descisions), penalized him/her unfairly.

So, to summarise, because you allow the players to make the descisions for your mud, you are responsible for the actions they take. Therefore, if your agents remove items (or whatever) they have purchased without reason, it's the same as if you had.

I don't know if they'll win or not. But I'm know they have a case. Despite what your lawyers say.
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Old 08-25-2004, 05:48 PM   #88
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Ya'll still arguing over this? very productive, seeing IRE $boyz and IRE yesmen create new accounts, and send folks flocking to post here.

If someone needs lawyers to make sure they can rip folks off without having to refund, shouldn't folks be suspicious?

"Oh, my attorney said we can grift 24/7, and not a court in the land can touch us, kinda like AOL. Aren't you proud of us, we compare ourselves to the largest internet con-game going... AOHell! Yay! Go Special Ed... I love chucky, and I love cheese..."
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Old 08-25-2004, 07:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by (Moiraine @ Aug. 25 2004,17:48)
Ya'll still arguing over this? †very productive, seeing IRE $boyz and IRE yesmen create new accounts, and send folks flocking to post here.

If someone needs lawyers to make sure they can rip folks off without having to refund, shouldn't folks be suspicious?

"Oh, my attorney said we can grift 24/7, and not a court in the land can touch us, kinda like AOL. †Aren't you proud of us, we compare ourselves to the largest internet con-game going... AOHell! Yay! Go Special Ed... I love chucky, and I love cheese..."
So young, so angry! Perhaps you are feeling upset because mummy hasn't burped you yet today. Or do you just need a changing?

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Old 08-25-2004, 08:50 PM   #90
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Hrmm I just thought of a way to increase the intelligence of these post, referring to the most recent by the_logos. In any future post if the_logos adds a comment make it a dead post, no matter if you want to say something or not, end it at that, never reply, let it end with his post that way he will soon become null and void and Acheae and IRE won't get the free advertisement. Just my suggestions, because it seems to me intelligence stops with him and his derogatorry post.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:44 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by (White_Rose @ Aug. 25 2004,20:50)
Hrmm I just thought of a way to increase the intelligence of these post, referring to the most recent by the_logos. In any future post if the_logos adds a comment make it a dead post, no matter if you want to say something or not, end it at that, never reply, let it end with his post that way he will soon become null and void and Acheae and IRE won't get the free advertisement. Just my suggestions, because it seems to me intelligence stops with him and his derogatorry post.
It's funny how you focus on my post, when the post before that was the one that started flaming me and my company. I just responded. As always seems to be the case with this site's angry/bitter/frustrated types.
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Old 08-26-2004, 04:47 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
It's funny how you focus on my post, when the post before that was the one that started flaming me and my company. I just responded.
"Oh, I'm sorry officer, but he was mouthing off at me. I only stabbed him once. Look, it was his fault! He started it!"

Jeez, Matt. Take some responsibility for your own actions, will you? You're supposed to be the reasoned voice of a successful professional here, not a fish waiting to be hooked so easily by a blatant troll.

Furrfu.
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Old 08-26-2004, 08:24 AM   #93
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Ok guys, this is getting a bit out of hand. No, Matt didn't ask me to post for you conspiracy theorists out there (bet you think we didn't go the moon, too, eh?) and I'm not even using my Achaean char's name, so there is NO way I can benefit at all from this post IC, so don't assume. That being said...

IRE is a very succesful business. The EULA is pretty encompassing, but here's what I want to know, you guys keep saying credits are bought with real money and then lost due to actions entirely their own, because of actions of a thid party.

Now, let me give you a scenario. I go to the Bowling Alley and see one of thos little quarter machines that you use the claw to get a stuffed animal out of it. I put my quarter in and I'm positioning the claw above what I want. I'm lined up perfectly. I get what I want, the stuffed animal. Then, later that same day, before leaving the bowling alley, I lose it. I look and look and can't find it. I have now lost my quarter because of actions my own. Do I have the right to sue the Bowling Alley because I couldn't keep up with the toy?

I have been a leader in a couple of Achaea's Guilds and I'm a leader in an Aetolian guild now. I have outguilded people, causing them to lose lessons. Did I do so frivolously? No, because if I had, the Admin would of come down hard on me. Did I know I would be taking away a person's lessons? Yes. But the actions of these people deserve it. I am a secretary of the Luminaries on Aetolia. The Guild, a good guild, has one very strictly enforced rule. Don't associate with those opposed to our ideals. Everyone gets a few warnings and if they continue to break it, they are kicked out. We do, however, allow them to join Family Clans and if they have family members who are 'evil' then they can talk to them - on that clan.

This member kept bashing with his IC brother, a Cabalist. We told him to stop assiciating. He told us to screw ourselves. He was warned. Next day, he's with the guy again. We tell him to stop again or face stiffer consequences. Once again, we get told to screw ourselves. Going into the room with him, I turned on an ability that lets me see tells. I see him talking about how he's gonna stay 'in the guild until he gets class (GR3, at which point the skills cannot be removed by anyone but an immortal, which won't happen) and then quit, so he can be an Evil Luminary. At this point, we outguilded him. He lost about 600 lessons, which equates to 100 credits, which equates to $40. The guilds do not outguild willy nilly, on any IRE game. The people that are outguilded, have it coming. Those of you that are anti-IRE, look at the issues and stop hating on the company because they're "bigger" or "more profitable" or whatever it is that make you people want to cry and hold your teddy bear.

-a longtime IRE customer
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:35 AM   #94
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Your comparison of a "claw game" is totally incorrect. I'll just leave it at that.

What is more disturbing is that I learn now that Achaea now has players who can snoop your tells. That's just plain creepy.
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:58 AM   #95
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I have to agree, they can take your credits, snoop your tells, so really who runs Achaea and the IRE games?
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:09 AM   #96
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Unhappy

Oh, one other thing...

You used an OOC command to make an IC descision about your guild. Isn't that totally against roleplaying?
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:51 AM   #97
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the_logos Aug. 25 2004,22:44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
It's funny how you focus on my post, when the post before that was the one that started flaming me and my company. I just responded. As always seems to be the case with this site's angry/bitter/frustrated types.
UmmÖ
I took the trouble of scrolling back and check. And the way it looks to me is that the post before yours actually did have at least some substance to it, whereas yours contains nothing but exactly the 4-year-old-kid-in-the-playpen type of retort that you seem to be accusing the other poster of.

But since this discussion thread, which I had hoped would be dead by now, seems to have been brought back to life again, I am still extremely curious about one thing:

Why on earth did IRE refund Kimberley, when you seem to have gone to such lengths to protect yourself against any refunds? If she really didnít have a valid claim, why pay her?

You are the only one who can really answer that question, all the attempts made from your followers and others are just speculations.

So could you please satisfy my curiosity?
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:18 AM   #98
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What is more disturbing is that I learn now that Achaea now has players who can snoop your tells.
They can snoop your tells and cause you the loss of invested real-life money, and will apparently do so for playing with people they don't like, or secretly planning to do things IC that they don't want you to do...

Do you think this Dask character is for real, or just a troll trying to make Achaea look bad? Because I can't see anything about being able to snoop tells on the Guild section on Achaea's website...
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:21 AM   #99
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{SPECULATION} just to its marked as so. They refunded Kimberly's money because they were wrong, its not to get rid of someone, Ban is for that, and synozeer made sure the multiple post were banned as well.

1) They knew Kimberly was upset and would go to greater lengths if need be.
2) (Even as great as your attorney's are they don't know everything, so I just happened to pop the question to the Attorney General to see his views). It was agreed that your affiliates (guild leaders) do not legally and should not in game play have the power to affect a player where as monetary values are in place. Unless they are direct employees or volunteers who have agreed to certain legal rights before hand. (Which I highly doubt they have).
Unless of course they PAID for that guild to start the guild, and paid for the legal rights of those skills offered in those guilds (kinda like user licenses). I don't know IRE but I doubt you can buy your own guilds with actualy money, or can you?
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Old 08-26-2004, 12:13 PM   #100
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The skill is an IC skill called Angel Mindread. It allows me to see all tells to and from players in the same room as me. I use my Guardian Angel. It is an IC skill, an IC action, and, therefore, IC information used to make the decision
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