[Dulan]

Wow, Shao. If that's all you know about the Japanese style of martial arts...-snicker- -snicker-. The modern day -do has been modified so that you can use them in sport. The modern day -jutsu retains all of the original schools "deadliness", as you put it. Why do you think some styles of arts cannot be used in any sort of tournament? At least, non-armored tournament before KaVir pipes up. For some reason, I find a martial arts tournament in which people are stumbling around in armor that weighs almost as much as they do amusing. Various "moves" (for lack of a better word, I do not know the English equivalent) in Aikijujutsu would not be taught in Aikido, again. Their only use is for destroying the opponents body - permanently, in many cases. There is no use for moves such as these within a -do style.

As for kendo, if I had no use for it, I would not study it, would I Shao? -Do arts have a different focus then -jutsu arts. There are exceptions on both sides that I have generalized, I do admit, however, I speak from experience here Shao. How much experience do you have, other then supposed "gung/kung fu" training? While only in Kendo and Aikido have I put in as much work as KaVir's 7 or 8 years, I am still a sandan in multiple arts. Arrogant - yes. Asinine - exceedingly. Proud - hell yes I am. I've been doing this since I was 10 or 11, starting with Karate (Eww. Eww. Eww), and then Aikido. That is where my comments on children not being able to understand -jutsu styles comes from. From my own experience.

KaVir: Read my statements again. I meant to imply that Kung Fu could be neither a -jutsu or -do style, instead, it could incorporate parts of both within it. Again, my definitions of 'soft'/'hard' come from only being used on the practice mat (Make sure to perform this pin soft, and not extend fully!, and a bad assumption.

-D

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I meant to imply that Kung Fu could be neither a -jutsu or -do style, instead, it could incorporate parts of both within it

The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese. Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.

[Dulan]

Originally Posted by The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese.

Again, I have no experience with non-Japanese styles, which Kung Fu is definitely not Japanese in origin - it is Chinese, as we seem to keep repeating.

Originally Posted by Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.

A very good convention, mind you. -points to previous examples of his mistaken hard art assumption-.

-D

[Shao_Long]

Originally Posted by The modern day -do has been modified so that you can use them in sport. The modern day -jutsu retains all of the original schools "deadliness", as you put it.

1. I dont care about *modern day -do* . I speak about *original* -do. And if you think schools in which I was and am studying have something to do with *modern* names, you're wrong. Speaking about *deadliness*, would okinawate be *deadly* enough for you ? or its not ? one blow with fingers piercing metallic armor is too weak for you ?
what about jujutsu ? if you didnt knew,its a sport. Pure sport. As any sport, it has its combat usefulness.

Besides,all these naming discussions have no point. There are no two schools which use any single name in one meaning.

Originally Posted by As for kendo, if I had no use for it, I would not study it, would I Shao?

Again,many meanings of single word. What do you call use ? I never used my katana for battle. It doesnt means I have no use for it,does it ?

Originally Posted by I speak from experience here Shao. How much experience do you have, other then supposed "gung/kung fu" training?

Well,as said my teacher..and very correctly said : 'why should you speak of your experience ? Fool will not believe you, smart will,and will use it against you. Say your school's name after battle,not before'
Althought,I dont think we will fight,as well I dont think you will believe me..But if you are asking for it,I expect you want to hear some answer.
I was trained in school practicing budo - this included judo,aikido,aikijujutsu and classical karate. Basic physical training in these begun in my age of 4. Training in kendo and bodo i received begun in my age of 7 (before the weapons were too heavy ) There also were basics of ninjutsu - mostly physical training,not fighting techniques, daito-ru and some other stuff.You could say,this sounds funny .. well,my favorite books starting at age of 6 were 'Book of Five Rings' by Musashi,and Sun Tzu's 'Art of War'. Very interesting,these are. Speaking of 'moral' training - well,i still managed not to use anything of what I learned against people not in my Dojo,in training.This (at least for me and my teacher) means more then any knowledge I achieved. Gung fu - I started learning it at age of 11,after my first teachers death.Mostly shaolin's style of dragon (thats where I got my name,from my second teacher). Now I realized that most japanese styles actually were coming from older chinese ones.Besides,I found chinese hand-to-hand combat arts more to my liking.They are more peaceful.And this doesnt means they are weaker.

Now,if you would believed at least in half of what I told..
but dont worry,i have more then enough experience to speak of what we are speaking now.

[Dulan]

Originally Posted by ...would okinawate be *deadly* enough for you ? or its not ? one blow with fingers piercing metallic armor is too weak for you ?

You lie.

The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty.

I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.

-D

[Mandrake]

While my own experience is primarily with Korean "kicking" (the details not being important because I've no need to claim that the water is either cold or deep.)

The best martial advice I've ever heard came from my DI, Sgt. Tibedoux. Tib was a lee-zee-anna boy to the core, and he taught us that the best move we could do was to quickly place our dogtags into our mouths and bite down. Thus saving the medic some work.

As Tib would say, "You go han' han' cowmbat, you dea! Member' you go han' han', you gunna die. Bess' weapun fo' han' han' cowmbat is a loaded fowty-fi, Member' tow brin' yo' loaded fowty fi to any han' han' combat."

~Mandrake

[Mason]

As long as we are comparing styles, I thought I would throw my own 2 cents in.  I have been training in various martial arts for over 14 years and have my own opinions.

Mostly, I've only seen a discussion of the "Eastern" arts, but there are many others that are quite formidable and therefore definitely worth mention.  My own opinion of the eastern arts is that they are too rooted in tradition and are not very practical for today's fighter.  If you disagree with me then you can take it up with Bruce Lee, who developed Jeet Kune Do, because HE felt most martials arts were impractical.  JKD is widely accepted as a major breakthrough in bringing MA into the 20th century.

Speaking of major breakthroughs, everyone discovered in the first five UFCs how great Brazilian Ju Jitsu was for a one-on-one fight.  Granted, BJJ has its limitations, especially when fighting multiple opponents.  However, BJJ is an invaluable tool when the fight heads onto the ground (as many of them do).

Finally, though it has been around for over 50 years, Krav Maga is recently starting to get some serious attention.  This is because it is one of the most effective, realistic fighting techniques ever developed.  Created for the Israeli Defense Forces, Krav Maga is now taught to law enforcement agencies around the globe (including counter-terrorism and S.W.A.T. teams).  The "traditional" arts have a lot to offer in the way of discipline, flexibility, and both mental and physical fitness.  However, if you are looking to kick some ass and defend yourself against a mugger, Krav Maga is definitely for you.

http://www.kravmaga.com

Therefore, any discussion regarding what martial arts will make you the best fighter that does not mention JKD, BJJ, and KM is seriously lacking in the realism department.

[Shao_Long]

Originally Posted by You lie. The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty. I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.

You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.

dont make any judgements too quickly.

[Dulan]

Originally Posted by You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.

Wow. I never expected this level of stupidity from even you, Shao. The human hand cannot approach the level of "hardness" as to equal metal. It is a structural/material impossility using simple physics and material density. Human flesh is extremely weak structurally - its main intent is to "hold stuff in", so to speak. While it can be "hardened" via calluses and/or scar tissue, it cannot become even as strong as a hardwood when compared in a density and/or strength test. And definitely not a metal. Human bone, no matter how dense it is, cannot approach the structural density and tensile strength of tempered metal. One of the most known "feats" of martial artists is breaking wood with their bare hands. The reasoning is simple - wood has a grain. Watch the wood break - it breaks along the grain of the wood. If the wood had no grain, a la metal, the persons fist would likely be damaged. All it takes is mere focus to a single point of the power behind the punch, and the force will quite often break the wood along the grain. It takes conditioning to not damage the hand, however. But, the human hand cannot be conditioned to pierce metal.

Human flesh and bone has severe limitations on how strong it can be conditioned. Tempered metal should not have the weak spots that can be seen in wood grains. If you want to argue that they were breaking through improperly tempered metal, then sure, I can punch a hole through a tank. Shao, I can honestly say you have no martial arts experience from this conversation. Human flesh and bone cannot ever be conditioned to be harder then tempered metal. Even initiates to many arts realize that within a few months of training. I think KaVir, and others, will agree with me here when I say you are utterly full of it - both in your claims of martial arts experience, and your claims of the human hand.

-D

[Mandrake]

Human hands pierce metal armor?
Tensile strength?  What does a material's tensile strength have to do with a shearing action?  Wouldn't that be its shear stress or bending stress?

If martial artists can "focus" a blow to hit the grain of wood, and stress (no matter what regime) is expressed as allowable force over area.....could not the area of the blow be small enough to exceed a material's yield strength?

What is tempered metal?  Is it heat tempered, work hardened, annealed, quenched, forged, or just refined?  Hardened metals tend to be much more brittle than their unhardened ductile versions.  They are also more scratch resistant, yet fail at lower stresses.  Wouldn't that make them more likely to fail from a blunt blow?

Who's master / trainer is a higher "daaaaaaaaaan"?  I'm sure that figures in to all this somehow too.
~Mandrake

[Dulan]

Originally Posted by Human hands pierce metal armor? Tensile strength? What does a material's tensile strength have to do with a shearing action? Wouldn't that be its shear stress or bending stress?

Used the improper term for the meaning. I do that alot - see this thread.

Originally Posted by If martial artists can "focus" a blow to hit the grain of wood, and stress (no matter what regime) is expressed as allowable force over area.....could not the area of the blow be small enough to exceed a material's yield strength?

It's not that simple. Properly forged and tempered metal does not have a "grain" or a "weak point" to strike and break as martial artists do with wood. You'd have to focus it to such a small point that you'd be basically hitting it with a tiny chisel - and that really wouldn't work very well in the end.

Originally Posted by What is tempered metal? Is it heat tempered, work hardened, annealed, quenched, forged, or just refined? Hardened metals tend to be much more brittle than their unhardened ductile versions. They are also more scratch resistant, yet fail at lower stresses. Wouldn't that make them more likely to fail from a blunt blow?

"Temper" was used in a generic manner. But, even then, unless we are talking about something totally and utterly out of the bounds of this conversation, Shao is lieing outright.

Originally Posted by Who's master / trainer is a higher "daaaaaaaaaan"? I'm sure that figures in to all this somehow too.

That is largely irrelevant. If Shao even follows an art, it probably refers to itself in terms of "Belts", with full-fledged "brown belts with red tips" or whatever.

-D

[Aequitas]

I'd have to go with Jet Li, and if you havn't seen Dragons of the Orient yet... do so it'll give you a little insight on where Jet Li is comming from.

[Shao_Long]

now im sure you know nothing of japans history,Dulan...
Okinawa's peasants unarmed and unarmored were resisting samurai's invasion for about 5 years. Pretty long time for a bunch of untrained peasants,eh ?
If hand is specially practiced and trained,even without any special concentration of ki,it can pierce metal armor.
Or you dont believe that it is possible to break a concrete slab with a hand too ?
you pretty closely resemble one of my classmates now.he too doesnt likes me too much,and in discussion what best submachine gun is (aksu vs mp5) he was arguing for half a hour, even when all the class already was against him,just to yell 'liar !' at me. this is moronish,dont you agree ?
human body has much more applications then eating/sleeping/yelling. properly trained human really canbreak metal/stone. sure,im not speaking about 5meters thick titanium/ceram steel or some depleted uranium armor. But it IS possible. heh,i seen that myself. so you can yell 'liar' as long as you can,i dont care.

[Dulan]

Shao, I can break concrete slabs with my hands. 4 at once of 3" thicknesses. I can break ice, as well. However, do you know _why_ they can be broken? They are porous materials. They "want" (Well, not really, but relatively vs metal) to give way. Metal has a molecular structure that is tight-knit and does not want to give way.

Originally Posted by now im sure you know nothing of japans history,Dulan... Okinawa's peasants unarmed and unarmored were resisting samurai's invasion for about 5 years. Pretty long time for a bunch of untrained peasants,eh ?

Which province, which date, which ruler, and which dynasty? There are several instances of this in Japan. Also, this is irrelevant to the argument. Any reason why you are trying to bring it off-topic, Shao? Fear, maybe?

Originally Posted by If hand is specially practiced and trained,even without any special concentration of ki,it can pierce metal armor.

Wrong. I've checked with a physics Ph.D at my university on this matter. Go check with an equivalently-knowledgeable Physics person in your area. He/she will confirm that statement - the human hand cannot be conditioned to break metal.

Originally Posted by Or you dont believe that it is possible to break a concrete slab with a hand too ?

I can do this myself. It is because concrete is a porous material. Metal is not.

Originally Posted by you pretty closely resemble one of my classmates now.he too doesnt likes me too much,and in discussion what best submachine gun is (aksu vs mp5) he was arguing for half a hour, even when all the class already was against him,just to yell 'liar !' at me. this is moronish,dont you agree ?

Oh? I see one person against me. You. A twit who has no clue whatsoever about what the human body is and is not capable of. And, again, this is irrelevant to the argument. Why do you bring up so much irrelevant crap, Shao?

Originally Posted by human body has much more applications then eating/sleeping/yelling. properly trained human really canbreak metal/stone. sure,im not speaking about 5meters thick titanium/ceram steel or some depleted uranium armor.

Yeah. Sex. Stone is theoretically possible - unless we are arguing thin tin or some crap, metal is not.

Originally Posted by But it IS possible. heh,i seen that myself. so you can yell 'liar' as long as you can,i dont care.

You are a liar, or it was a hoax. Period. It is a physical impossibility for a human hand to break anything that is commonly considered metal armor.

-D

[Shao_Long]

Really ? Ask your physics teacher ? Or scientist ?
Is it possible for a man to stop a katana with a hand ?
Is it possible for a man to last w/o breathing for more then hour ?
Is it possible for a man to move something w/o touching it ?
Is it possible for a man to kill someone simply by pressing,not hitting,some specific points on his body ?

This list can be continued almost endlessly.Everything listed here IS possible.And was done already.

Physics cannot explain everything, Dulan. Besides,the thing about we are now arguing IS explainable.
Bullet is made of lead.How can it pierce steel ? Lead is softer then steel,if you didnt knew.

If you cannot believe me, take any book describing approximately 16 century,maybe 17,not sure,and Satsuma's invasions of Okinawa. Read a bit about Okinawa Te,and then speak further. And,please,stop hurling your stupid insults at me. They make me laugh.


ps.speaking about stone,is it possible for you to break a brick wall with a FINGER ? made from double bricks.

[Orion Elder]

Fixed the topic title. Figured if it must stay around, it can at least be readable.