[gameover]

Just in case anyone's keeping up with Medievia's latest change to force players to vote, here's a direct threat from the owner of the MUD:

[Mon Dec 12 06:10] Vryce(148):: if we dont STAY in the top 5 on that vote list I will shut down medievia

I've been playing Medievia for 6 years, and will never play it again after Vryce and Soleil broke TMS rules, and pushed yet another threat down his players' throats.

[Jeena]

Complainers, whiners, moaners, and groaners are always the ones who are most vocal but are not in the majority. I talk to people nearly every day who are pleased and excited about the new and amazing innovations that are going on in medievia almost weekly.  
Serpents, ships, terraforming, and other new features make this game a growing, evolving vibrant place, and despite the few vocal naysayers, it is in fact an wonderful world to be a part of.
But here's the other thing to keep clearly in mind. Change is hard for some people. There are people out there who prefer to know something inside and out, they want no challenge, they want all things predictable. You can't use Gamerevolution to win this game. Med is not that place.
Today on Med will not be the same as tomorrow on Med. Something you try now, mayl be harder or easier tomorrow.
Some people can't handle that. But if you want a challenge, if you really want to feel good about what you've accomplished, Med is the place for you. If you want easy and predictable, I recommend Tetris.
In order to compete with muds that have FAR FAR FEWER players, Medievia must employ the same tactics that they are allowed to use. This is only fair.

[gameover]

Their change is illegal. Read the rules of this website.

If they "have to" resort to cheating to get people to play the game, chances are there's either a problem with their content (unlikely, since the depth of gameplay is amazing), or with their management.

I'd say management has been slowly killing the game for years. Luckily, this will probably give it the shot it needs to put it out of its misery.

[Soleil]

As I see it, no rules were broken.  We've just researched what the other top muds do to help get their players to vote and have adopted a similar strategy that the usual #1 MUD (Aardwolf) uses.  If Medievia is at fault, then they are too. (I know, sounds soooo petty...)

Mr. Gameover, I'm sorry you are disappointed by our actions today, but I'm probably about 99% sure that you are not leaving Medievia because of this issue here on TMS.   If you are, then so be it.  However, I urge you to leave Medievia if you don't like it there.  Go find another game that suits your needs better.  After all, games are for entertainment, right?  You SHOULD leave a game that is no longer fun for you.  Since playing a game like a MUD takes a lot of time, that time should be spent somewhere you have fun.  It's always a shame to lose a player, but we don't want to keep players around who don't enjoy their experience.  I wish you the best at your new MUD home and hope that you enjoy it as much as you enjoyed your time on Medievia.  Good Luck finding that game!

[the_logos]

I can't say I'm happy about it, but they do have a point in that Aardwolf seems to have the same system and nobody is complaining about them (although I am about to, privately, to Synozeer).

--matt

[gameover]

Aardwolf's reminder is OPTIONAL, which is the key here. Medievia hinders gameplay by breaking people's prompts, and then threatens them if they use a script to turn it off. Aardwolf offers the option of having a reminder, and the ability to easily turn it off.

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by I can't say I'm happy about it, but they do have a point in that Aardwolf seems to have the same system and nobody is complaining about them.

Of course no one is complaining, they aren't Medievia   If anyone had a problem with Aardwolf's system and it was brought out here as ILLEGAL, I highly doubt we would have adopted it.  We have been doing everything as we should around here, although it is VERY easy to offer rewards for voting, we haven't.  We do THIS and right away the Medievia Spies are on top of us and shouting from the rooftops about our SCAM.  Well, the 'scam' has been around for awhile folks, and Medievia didn't start it.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (gameover @ Dec. 12 2005,15:52) Aardwolf's reminder is OPTIONAL, which is the key here. Medievia hinders gameplay by breaking people's prompts, and then threatens them if they use a script to turn it off. Aardwolf offers the option of having a reminder, and the ability to easily turn it off.

Well, first, I have no problem with either system. Don't play the MUD if it bothers you that much. Having said that, however, here is what the rules say:

"You cannot display different messages based on whether someone voted or not, or reward a player for voting by not showing messages."

It doesn't distinguish between systems that are opt-out and systems that aren't. You can argue about one being more intrusive, and you'd be correct, but the rules don't take that into account.

I would certainly back a change that allowed for players to opt-in to that kind of prompt notification system, but the rules currently don't permit it as far as I can tell.

--matt

[Jeena]

I second Soleil's post. It is obvious that "Gameover" has not been happy in Med for sometime and is now taking his/her parting dig at the game.
This does not negate some basic truths about Medievia....

The Challenge
The Companionship
The Fun
The Evolution
The Variety

Sadly, too many people aren't aware of the wonders of Medievia, by employing the same tactics used by other Muds on TMS Medievia is leveling the playing field with the competition and helping to make more people aware of the possibilities.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Jeena @ Dec. 12 2005,15:57) I second Soleil's post. It is obvious that "Gameover" has not been happy in Med for sometime and is now taking his/her parting dig at the game. This does not negate some basic truths about Medievia.... The Challenge The Companionship The Fun The Evolution The Variety Sadly, too many people aren't aware of the wonders of Medievia, by employing the same tactics used by other Muds on TMS Medievia is leveling the playing field with the competition and helping to make more people aware of the possibilities.

Whether he's upset with Medievia or not is immaterial as to whether Medievia is breaking the rules or not. Whether Medievia is a great game or a bad game is irrelevant to the voting rules.

--matt

[gameover]

Originally Posted by (Jeena @ Dec. 12 2005,15:57) It is obvious that "Gameover" has not been happy in Med for sometime and is now taking his/her parting dig at the game.

Now, if only I could have the significant sum of money that I've spent on the game refunded!

Live and learn...

By the way, you're a great mouthpiece for the game, and so able to ignore anything but happily-spun propaganda. Soleil should pay you, if she isn't already.

[gameover]

Originally Posted by (Jeena @ Dec. 12 2005,15:57) It is obvious that "Gameover" has not been happy in Med for sometime and is now taking his/her parting dig at the game.

Now, if only I could have the significant sum of money that I've spent on the game refunded!

Live and learn...

By the way, you're a great mouthpiece for the game, and so able to ignore anything but happily-spun propaganda. Soleil should pay you, if she isn't already.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,15:54) Originally Posted by I can't say I'm happy about it, but they do have a point in that Aardwolf seems to have the same system and nobody is complaining about them. Of course no one is complaining, they aren't Medievia If anyone had a problem with Aardwolf's system and it was brought out here as ILLEGAL, I highly doubt we would have adopted it. We have been doing everything as we should around here, although it is VERY easy to offer rewards for voting, we haven't. We do THIS and right away the Medievia Spies are on top of us and shouting from the rooftops about our SCAM. Well, the 'scam' has been around for awhile folks, and Medievia didn't start it.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense Soleil. You know I've defended Medievia in the past, but saying you're going to break a rule because someone else did is crap. If you knew Aardwolf was breaking the rules, why not just shoot an email to webmaster@topmudsites.com to let Adam know? It's worked in the past. Materia Magica got kicked off here after they cheated. A couple other MUDs have too.

I wish you guys would reconsider.
--matt

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by but saying you're going to break a rule because someone else did is crap.

That's really not what I meant.  I just assumed that since Aardwolf's system has been in place for a long time and that they've been the #1 game for just as long, that what they were doing was totally in agreement with the rules.  If not, why wasn't this brought up ages ago?? That is the major reason why we chose to do the same-ish thing.  I didn't know they were breaking the rules at all.  Maybe just my assumption that everyone was aware of what they were doing was incorrect.  

This brings about this question...
Just exactly how far does Synozeer go to prove that games aren't cheating?   Does a representative of this site EVER log into MUDs to make sure they are following the rules?  If so, why didn't Aardwolf's system come out before?  Why now, when Medievia does it, does it come out as illegal?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,16:13) That's really not what I meant. I just assumed that since Aardwolf's system has been in place for a long time and that they've been the #1 game for just as long, that what they were doing was totally in agreement with the rules. If not, why wasn't this brought up ages ago?? That is the major reason why we chose to do the same-ish thing. I didn't know they were breaking the rules at all. Maybe just my assumption that everyone was aware of what they were doing was incorrect. This brings about this question... Just exactly how far does Synozeer go to prove that games aren't cheating? Does a representative of this site EVER log into MUDs to make sure they are following the rules? If so, why didn't Aardwolf's system come out before? Why now, when Medievia does it, does it come out as illegal?

I'd imagine that Synozeer depends 100% on MUDs policing each other. Aardwolf has a lot of players, so we've never seen a reason to investigate their high vote counts, but we do investigate, as thoroughly as we can, any sudden jumps in voting or suspiciously high vote-total to total players ratio.

So I mean, the answer to your question is probably just, "Nobody complained." (Until now.)

Incidentally, I'm proposing to Adam that he consider changing the rule to allow for vote reminding systems that allow players to opt-out if they want. That way Aardwolf could just keep their current system (which seems perfectly fine to me as long as the rules permit it) and you could modify yours to allow players to opt-out of the vote-status-on-prompt.

I think that the reason for the rules is that Adam doesn't wish players to be selectively nagged based on whether they've voted or not. Currently the options are then either to nag everybody or not to nag. If the rule change were permitted, there'd be a third option, "Only 'nag' those who are ok with being 'nagged.'"

--matt

[Jeena]

3-->

Originally Posted by (gameover @ Dec. 12 2005,14[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]3)] Originally Posted by Jeena,Dec. 12 2005,15:57 It is obvious that "Gameover" has not been happy in Med for sometime and is now taking his/her parting dig at the game. Now, if only I could have the significant sum of money that I've spent on the game refunded! Live and learn... By the way, you're a great mouthpiece for the game, and so able to ignore anything but happily-spun propaganda.  Soleil should pay you, if she isn't already.

You think a person has to be paid for stating the obvious? I've played med for almost 7 years. I didn't hang around cause it was a great chat program. I like the game. It's the most innovative game out  there.
I think it's time people who support med are as vocal as the minority who bash it. I mean, for godsakes if it sucks so bad why do people stay and why do they come back? Because frankly it doesn't suck.  It's awesome. But no matter what is going on there's always a few who stand back with nothing better to do than to knock someone down.
So, do I support Medievia. Yes I do. I show my support by playing, by donating, and by doing my best to be as vocal as the naysayers. You complain, I support. See how it works?

[betrayed.by.gods]

You know, I wouldn't even have a problem with the game except for this one paragraph

"Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history."

Sounds like an implied threat to me, and makes me wonder why I'm playing a MUD where the gods can be so callous about the playerbase

[Ilkidarios]

If a vote button comes up after a certain period of time in the client, is that alright?  If it doesn't turn off if you vote, that is. Is that legal in the voting rules system?

[the_logos]

I just heard from Adam regarding this whole issue. Here is the general gist of his feeling:

Displaying different messages based on whether someone has voted or not is fine IF those people have opted-in to that scheme. So, if it's on by default when you create, or is turned on by default for you, that's illegal (so no opt-out schemes, only opt-in schemes).

So, if Aardwolf's is on by default, Adam says it's illegal, but if people have to opt-in to it then he says it's fine. Medievia's sounds like it is still against his intent though, as it seems like it's forced on players.

He says he'll try to take some time tonight to consider altering the rules to clarify his intent.

--matt

[mild mudder]

Here, let's discuss further shall we?

There's a saying:

"If everyone else was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you?"

Obviously, Medievia would. But that's not really the point is it.

I'd like to point out that Medievia has made a significant jump on the list by forcing people to vote. Yes, that's "forcing", as in, no choice, or we break your prompt, and also, think about the implied threat:

"We won't support you."

Ok, so for instance, if a player does something illegal by Medievia's rules to another player. Let's say the discipline gods now have to check the records to see if someone's voting for Medievia or not. Let's say here that the victim is not voting, and has subbed or somehow blocked the ugly IVOTE yellow tag so their prompt will work right. That person isn't voting, therefore gets no help? Doesn't that sound like an utter crock? That's like saying "Oh here, go vote and you can do whatever you want." Golly gee whiz! If only the money I've sunk into Medievia for donation equipment would buy me the same privileges!!

But it doesn't. All I have to do now to get away with things is go vote for a game. And I don't have to hand over any of my hard-earned money!

That'll raise revenue won't it? But the above scenario is merely supposition. What's the real deal?

And Jeena, you're not fooling anyone with your name on here. I know who you are, and so does anyone else who's played Medievia. Your condescending "holier-than-thou" attitude can't be mistaken, and you are one of Medievia's gods, so of course you're going to defend the game.

The sad thing is, there are players who haven't been screwed by Medievia yet who will come and defend it too. I can name off the top of my head quite a few bigtime players/donaters who got nailed. No reimbursements, not even a note saying "Hey, sorry about your loss", no nothing. Just a bunch of excuses and no facts.

You all can lie until it flows our your ears. Too bad V has a big mouth, and loves gloating over how "smart" he is over the IMM channel. You all say one thing, and then turn right around and do another.

[Soleil]

Sorry about the repeat post

[Soleil]

There simply is no forcing being done. Simply type vote ivoted and the text goes away. Plain and simple. Read into the 'implied threat' all you want, but if you have played Medievia as long as you are claiming you have, you know that's just Vryce's 'way'. The rest of your post is just crap.. we won't be treating voters any differently than every other player on Medievia. If you break the rules, you get punished, whether you vote or donate or whatever. Enough of the purged players can tell you that. Bottom line is, if you don't like the game and the way it is managed, don't log in

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,18:29) There simply is no forcing being done. Simply type vote ivoted and the text goes away. Plain and simple. Read into the 'implied threat' all you want, but if you have played Medievia as long as you are claiming you have, you know that's just Vryce's 'way'. The rest of your post is just crap.. we won't be treating voters any differently than every other player on Medievia. If you break the rules, you get punished, whether you vote or donate or whatever. Enough of the purged players can tell you that. Bottom line is, if you don't like the game and the way it is managed, don't log in

Wait a second, I think I must have missed something, with both you and Aardwolf.

Voting isn't what is giving different messages. It's whether you typed 'ivoted' or not. That's not against the rules at all as far as I can tell, as it's not basing anything on whether someone's voted or not, just on whether they typed 'ivoted', which doesn't have to have anything to do with voting.

My apologies. I just misunderstood how you and Aardwolf were doing things with the voting prompt.

--matt

[mild mudder]

To those of us who know better, Soleil's post is utter crap.

[betrayed.by.gods]

Ok, so the new helpfile on Medievia says,

"Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history."

Which seems to be at odds with your bit about how voters won't be treated any differently. And as to asking purged players about breaking the rules, I can think of a handful that were purged due to mistakes Med gods never admitted to.

[Soleil]

Mild Mudder- Well, we both think what each other is writing is crap, we agree to disagree?

And Matt- yes we don't link voting to people's ips or anything like that. We give them the prompt to remind them to vote. They can type vote ivote for the prompt to go away, whether they vote or not. We have no way to prove if the person actually went and voted. So, are you now saying that we are NOT doing anything against the rules?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (betrayed.by.gods @ Dec. 12 2005,18:40) Ok, so the new helpfile on Medievia says, "Once you vote do a VOTE IVOTED and your prompt will clear until tomorrow. Do not run a script to clear the prompt as the game detects this and marks your history. That is fine but if you ever want our help, or our support in your problems, or to become an avatar or god, you do not want this kind of history." Which seems to be at odds with your bit about how voters won't be treated any differently. And as to asking purged players about breaking the rules, I can think of a handful that were purged due to mistakes Med gods never admitted to.

If it makes you feel any better, Medievia cannot tell if you have a script running to do that or not.

They can't tell if you've voted unless you tell them you do, and there's no way for them to verify it. You'll know this has changed if you mouse-over the vote link and see that you're going through a redirector rather than straight to part of the Topmudsites site.

--matt

[betrayed.by.gods]

an except from the imm channel on medievia:

---------------------------------------------------
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: it wont be there for long
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: now that we are doing what others are doing with the vote prompt and are winning, they wan
t a new rule
[Mon Dec 12 17:53] Vryce(148):: they say they soon wont allow it
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: anything they can do so med cant win
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: my suggestion is to vote like crazy this week, we called their bluff and it worked
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Dirocus:: you think its a conspiracy against you v
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: I dont think, they say it is
[Mon Dec 12 17:54] Vryce(148):: they even admit it is
[Mon Dec 12 17:55] Vryce(148):: go on the forums and post how much med is better than the other muds if you get a chance

[mild mudder]

So bottom line, rather than admit he might have been wrong, it's now a conspiracy.

Gets better and better!

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ Dec. 12 2005,18:42) And Matt- yes we don't link voting to people's ips or anything like that. We give them the prompt to remind them to vote. They can type vote ivote for the prompt to go away, whether they vote or not. We have no way to prove if the person actually went and voted. So, are you now saying that we are NOT doing anything against the rules?

Well, I'm not Adam and so am certainly not the official rules interpreter, but the current ones are pretty short and simple as regards this,

"You cannot display different messages based on whether someone voted or not, or reward a player for voting by not showing messages."

You guys aren't doing that (again, my apologies, I misunderstood how you and Aardwolf were doing things). You're displaying different messages based on whether someone has typed 'ivoted' or not, and there's nothing stopping anyone from typing 'ivoted' regardless of whether they've voted.

--matt