[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Jan. 16 2003,04:37) Originally Posted by Again, I'm not claiming that helping Synozeer is my primary motivation I think we are all well aware of what your primary motivation is, matt.

Just in case there is any confusion, it's twofold: making money while making the sort of game I like. Either of them without the other is insufficient. I can't imagine too many careers I'd like better than making games, and while I'm hardly a religious man, I'm quite thankful to live in an age where I can do it.

--matt

[the_logos]

Some of you are really great, and I'll probably lose out by not participating, but one of my personal weaknesses is a chronic inability to avoid silly arguments, of which there are many on any unmoderated board. Thus, I'm out of the boards and will stick to the rankings list. Here's hoping some of you wise the heck up and start bringing some decent traffic here. I'd love to see someone else bring more traffic than us.

--matt

[thelenian]

Originally Posted by As for your claims, I'd be curious to know where you get those statistics from. Are they facts, or conclusions derived from anecdotal evidence?

Conclusions derived from logs as well as anecdotal evidence gathered by surveying a random sampling of new players.

Of those who come to our MUD through TMS, the majority are people either new to MUDs, dissatisfied with their old MUD, or actively searching for a new MUD for some other reason (e.g., old MUD closed). Many noticed our new banner ad on TMS, but did not come until convinced by word-of-mouth. Very few, if any, came through our site by way of a voting gateway.

Based on my observations and experimentations, it has been most effective to target the demographics of dissatisfied players, and those new to MUDding. This is most likely why TMC is able to generate the amount of banner traffic that it does. Its services are catered quite specifically towards those demographics with which MUD-related advertising is most effective.

Originally Posted by We currently send (by far) the most traffic to the list of any MUD on the list. Yet, despite this, we have been gaining a not-insignificant number of players (and customers) who came to us from Top Mud Sites. If we can get a noticeable benefit from the traffic supplied by MUDs that are supplying no more than 20% as much traffic as we are, then the proportional increase that a smaller MUD can get is even greater.

Your data does not support that conclusion. Your conclusion relies on the implicit unsupported assumption, that the traffic you're gaining from TMS comes by way of the voting gateways of other MUDs.

As for your numerous attempts to imply that you are benefitting other members of the list by bribing players to vote, let me be the first of those members to say that it's quite insulting. Unless you've been running a net loss of players since becoming a member of the list, your listing has caused a net loss to the rest of the members. We're all here competing for players, no big bad secret there, but I draw the line when someone finds a way to further devalue the system and then tries to tell me that it's good for me everyone else.

[Molly]

the_logos 1:

Originally Posted by Some of you are really great, and I'll probably lose out by not participating, but one of my personal weaknesses is a chronic inability to avoid silly arguments, of which there are many on any unmoderated board. Thus, I'm out of the boards and will stick to the rankings list.

It figures. When the discussion gets a bit embarrassing, he withdraws from the arena. He never yet gave a straight answer to an embarrassing question – like for instance why he uses those phoney adverts, claiming unexisting awards.
I guess it also illustrates what his only interest in this site is.

the_logos 2:

Originally Posted by It's a simple relationship. We bring the most traffic, so we get the most traffic back. Seems fair to me. --matt

Not quite. There is a distinct difference between REAL traffic – people who come here to actually view the list and to take active part in the site, and those who just click a vote button to get some extra experience points in a mud. The latter don’t contribute to discussion threads or submit articles. Like the owner of Achaea, they are only interested in one thing – to get immediate advantages for themselves.

This site used to be a great place, with interesting discussions and articles to read. It used to be fun watching the struggle on the list, even if it reflected more the size of the playerbase than the quality of the mud. Now one mud has made a total mockery out of the list. And I think, that regardless of how many hits the site may get from their bloated votes, it still harms it a lot more than it ‘helps’, because it alienates the good people that used to hang out here and make contributions to the community.

I find myself gradually losing interest in the site, and I think the same thing has happened to others. When was the last time there was an interesting thread on the Advanced Mud Concept or Builders’ Forum? How many new articles have been posted in the last months? Coincidence? Maybe, but my personal opinion is that there is a connection.

I respect Synozeer’s assessment that the list cannot be ‘policed’ in any effective way. He is probably right about that.
Still, I don’t think that a mud that so blatantly abuses a system as Achaea should be allowed to continue with it. In this case there is absolutely no doubt about what is going on.

I also respect Synozeer's generosity and civil courage to allow this discussion to go on openly. Free speech is always a good thing.
So now I’ll exercise that freedom of speech and respectfully make a suggestion:

My suggestion would be to post a policy on the boards, that setting up a jumping ip-address and then bribing the players to click the vote button as often as possible is not acceptable. I would then suggest that he politely ask Achaea to stop what they are doing, and if they fail to comply, that he remove the mud from the list for a suitable length of time. Perhaps that would send a message to the owner, who otherwise seems remarkably devoid of shame and deaf to public opinion. Maybe it would also send a message to the rest of the Community.

[Dulan]

Gotta agree with Molly here.

Even I've been disappearing from these boards, and the reasoning is not unrelated to Mihaly's little shennanigans.

In fact, Mihaly's a direct cause of my reluctance to add toa ny serious discussion on these boards - TMS used to be a site worth my time. Ever since Mihaly's crap started, however, TMS seems like nothing more than a way for some people to make some cash, and that's it. No community, nothin'.

-D

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (thelenian @ Jan. 16 2003) Unless you've been running a net loss of players since becoming a member of the list, your listing has caused a net loss to the rest of the members.

I'm not so sure that it's a zero-sum game like that =). For a mud on the list to benefit the other muds on this list, I think we can all agree that a player needs to come from that mud and find another mud here. Since some players get their start on a specific mud, players are exposed to other muds through the voting mechanism. One could argue that these players would get their start somewhere else, but this simply isn't true in all cases, and we can't measure every player in existence to prove it as such.

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ foo) It used to be fun watching the struggle on the list, even if it reflected more the size of the playerbase than the quality of the mud. Now one mud has made a total mockery out of the list.

Such a struggle does still exist. It may not be for the #1 spot, and it would be silly of me not to acknowledge that there are less slots to view, but the struggle is very much alive. That is, if you're not hung up about any specific placement.

[shadowfyr]

Just a comment, but unless the rankings where weighted based on the 'real' size of the player base like 'This site has recieved 50 votes from its 500 players' the list will never be accurate. If no muds gave incentives then basic human nature would be for maybe 10% of the players to actively play and 20% of them actually voting at all. The result is the biggest player bases at the top of the list, which makes the whole process sort of pointless, since you could just post the actually number of total players that are over some level and get the same result.

As for the one I play at.. We are under new admin and the results of attempting to get us to vote has been less than impressive. lol Most on AoD are frankly more interested in the next new areas being added, the new changes to the battle arena and the occational invading army that we have to fight off. And frankly.. even if they did give us something like a 200% exp rate for a day, the result would be more like 120% due to all the extra people wandering around trying to kill stuff instead of doing other things. I am sure bribery works in some places, but prior to the server rearrangement that temporarily lost all the links to vote sites (and still isn't completely fixed), we where roughly the same place as now without any promised incentives. However, what I think that means relative to our actual active player base is as good a guess as yours...

[Threshold]

I understand that Synozeer doesn't want to mire himself in policing duties, but surely it is not difficult to ban a mud who so BLATANTLY and BRAZENLY abuses the system.

I think Molly makes an excellent point regarding the long term "psychological" effects of Achaea's gross abuse of the system. When people see someone "get away with murder" long enough, eventually they just throw up their hands in disgust and give up.

Lately, there have been numerous threads expressing disgust at what Achaea does. That is indicative of a very serious problem. But the indicator of whem the problem is even worse is when you STOP seeing threads about this. Why? Because that will mean people will no longer care, and when they don't care, they'll just abandon the site entirely.

The lack of quality, substantive discussions in the forums is a very good indicator of this. I hate to see it because I have always enjoyed the TMS forums. The software is vastly superior to what I have seen on other "mud" sites, and Synozeer doesn't allow disgruntled gamers to use the forums as a way to destroy the muds they got kicked from. That combination of factors makes for a good environment.

I think we are nearing the point where despite everything Synozeer has said about policing, he is going to have to make a choice. I think if he doesn't do something about Achaea soon, he will be jeopardizing the long term viability of the entire site as people simply give up.

I would hate to see that because I think Synozeer is a good guy. a good site admin, and deserves to have his site succeed.

[Terloch]

As I am sure you all have seen, I have been voicing my displeasure at the monopoly of the top spot here in my latest banner ad for Feudal Realms.  We pay $100 a month to be the sponsor of the site, which I honestly don't mind doing (my wife is another story).  Does it bug the #### out of me, sure.  Did the fake stupid ads on TMC bother me to the point where I blew my own money to call and verify that they weren't true, sure.

I have to agree with a lot of people, my interest (and my players interest) in here is waining.  People don't care as much to vote knowing that there's no way in bloody #### they can compete with large commercial muds with huge playerbases which give in-character incentives for clicking on a few links.  As for added traffic from here, sure we get quite a bit, but we also pay for it.  I don't see ads popping up for all the big ptp muds, I just see them leeching off the traffic here.  And yes, there were veiled comments made months ago about "oh, we're talking about advertising possibilities" and so on, well, I've seen no result of that, just the same folks (and some newer small muds as well) throwing their banners up to try to get something out of the site.

I seriously think Synozeer should just allocate the top spot to Achaea and we just ignore them and have a ranking for "all the rest"...but hey, people have been bitching about this for months now and nothing has changed, so I don't expect anything to happen...

Terloch

[Mason]

I would like to echo the sentiments of those who suggest the community is disappearing.  I always liked this place as a resource and as a vehicle for interesting debates about MUDs.  However, once this place became a mere "banner exchange," I lost most of my respect for this site.

If this place is just a banner exchange, then all Achaea's traffic does is raise the advertising rate for other muds.  But, these is no evidence that the voters from Achaea are actually checking out any other muds.  As such, Muds will see their advertising rate increase but see no noticeable difference.  Eventually, people will stop advertising and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

Also important to consider is the_logos' continued denial and resistance to other people's opinions demonstrates that he is only concerned with his own mud - not TMS or anyone else.  And, as Terloch mentioned, I too am still awaiting Achaea's adverts.  

Unless things change, I think we can all expect to see fewer and fewer people actually interested in this site.  And, as a personal note, notwithstanding Synorzeer's inability to police the boards, I"m a liitle disappointed in his failure to address this in a manner that responds to people's concerns.  Though in the short term it may benefit him to have Achaea at the top of the list, in the long term I think it can only do irreparable harm.

[imported_Synozeer]

I've decided to go ahead and not allow incentives and rewards to be given to players for voting. Here is the new entry in the Rules section:

Originally Posted by You CANNOT offer incentives or rewards to players for voting. That means you cannot give players items, experience, or anything else in return for votes. You CAN offer a game-wide prize (e.g. for ALL players on your mud) for reaching a goal, such as getting your mud the top 20, finishing in the top 10, etc.

Obviously, the majority of the community here at TMS is against the idea of offering rewards for voting, and this site is here for what's best for everyone as a whole. While offering rewards might increase traffic to a degree, I think restricting rewards will also increase traffic as more muds will activately try to get a better ranking on the list.

Notice that I still allow awards to ALL players for a goal. For example, you can tell your players that if your mud is in the top 10 at reset time, you'll reward them by opening up a new area, giving them all 1000xp, having a festival day on the mud, etc. This reward must be given to ALL players on the mud - not just the ones that voted.

This rule will begin to be enforced starting Monday, January 16th. Please continue to discuss the issue, your thoughts on this rule change, suggestions, etc. Nothing is ever etched in stone.

Synozeer

[thelenian]

Originally Posted by I'm not so sure that it's a zero-sum game like that =). For a mud on the list to benefit the other muds on this list, I think we can all agree that a player needs to come from that mud and find another mud here.

It is mostly a zero-sum game, actually. From an economic standpoint, if we view players as units of wealth, the only creation of wealth comes from players new to MUDding. Now, let's say that TMS creates 50 new units of wealth (attracts 50 new people to MUDding) per month. The most any other given MUD can gain per month without drawing directly from another is the amount of wealth created every month. Even this can be viewed as denying income to other MUDs that would otherwise have gotten those players.

It's simple, really. New members to the list do not facilitate more creation of wealth (unless they start buying TMS adspace on mpogd or something), therefore unless they draw exactly 0 players, or run at a net loss, they are further dividing the resources of the site.

[thelenian]

Wow.. Thanks Synozeer. I hope that enforcement doesn't place too much of a burden on you.

[Tavish]

Synozeer:

Originally Posted by Obviously, the majority of the community here at TMS is against the idea of offering rewards for voting, and this site is here for what's best for everyone as a whole.

The majority meaning the vocal majority I assume.  A dozen  out of the 1000+ registered is not quite a majority.  A dozen plus the board owner is a vast majority though - -, so I do hope that everyone supports any final decison.   What concerns me, and the primary reason I even joined into the thread is the thought of trying to control how people run their mud.  Will the complaints about one muds use of incentives that altered how the rankings fell, turn into complaints that another mud uses ingame announcements or other zealous attempts to make the pbase vote?  Is it at all a concern that some muds may choose not to sign-up for the listing with restrictions placed on the way their mud is ran?  ( Please pardon me if the questions seem over-dramatic, I tend to go that route when I play devil's advocate. )  My hats off to you for being proactive in trying fix what some see as a problem.

Pertaining to previous posts:
Mason:

Originally Posted by I would like to echo the sentiments of those who suggest the community is disappearing.  I always liked this place as a resource and as a vehicle for interesting debates about MUDs.  However, once this place became a mere "banner exchange," I lost most of my respect for this site.

Threshold:

Originally Posted by The lack of quality, substantive discussions in the forums is a very good indicator of this.

Molly:

Originally Posted by This site used to be a great place, with interesting discussions and articles to read.

Has the depth of the discussions really gone downhill all that much?  Does anyone miss discussions on sock-color or is this post or is this post not spam?  TMS has been around long enough now that the same discussions have been rehashed so many times that many people now have nothing new to talk about.  There have been about as many interesting new advanced concepts brought up in the last few months as there were in the few months preceeding Achaea's and DR's arrival.

The only thing, barring a major event in mudding, that is left for people to discuss is the meta-game of mudding ( how to promote, how to deal with twinkish players, etc) and ethics.  Both of those topics are unanswerable and incite flamewars which is why they will always be around.  You shouldnt need anymore evidence than to look around at the other mud-based forums to see that all of them are going through the same stages.  I truely do not believe it has anything to do with how the list was maintained.

Terloch:

Originally Posted by I have to agree with a lot of people, my interest (and my players interest) in here is waining.  People don't care as much to vote knowing that there's no way in bloody #### they can compete with large commercial muds with huge playerbases which give in-character incentives for clicking on a few links.

Were people more inspired that they could overtake RoD during it's heyday at the top of the list?  It was assumed that no matter what the current situation was at the #1 ranking, by the end of the session RoD would be there again.  Perhaps the flaw in the incentive promotion was that it should have only kicked in the last week or so of the process and let other muds have their few days in the sun.

Molly:

Originally Posted by There is a distinct difference between REAL traffic – people who come here to actually view the list and to take active part in the site, and those who just click a vote button to get some extra experience points in a mud. The latter don’t contribute to discussion threads or submit articles. Like the owner of Achaea, they are only interested in one thing – to get immediate advantages for themselves.

This makes the very difficult assumption that people who are not drawn here through incentives are REAL traffic.  Like the owner of Achaea, the first reason they come here is to promote their mud.  The link is to vote for this mud at Top Mud Sites, not join a mud community.  Those people have the same chance of catching on and becoming members as those who come through incentives.

Sorry for jumping through so many topics at once.  Here's hoping for the best.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Synozeer @ Jan. 16 2003,17:36) I've decided to go ahead and not allow incentives and rewards to be given to players for voting. Here is the new entry in the Rules section: Originally Posted by You CANNOT offer incentives or rewards to players for voting. That means you cannot give players items, experience, or anything else in return for votes. You CAN offer a game-wide prize (e.g. for ALL players on your mud) for reaching a goal, such as getting your mud the top 20, finishing in the top 10, etc.

WOW!

This is excellent news. Thank you Synozeer for being so responsive to the users/readers here!

I can hardly put into words how PLEASANTLY surprised I was when I read this post!

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (thelenian @ foo) It is mostly a zero-sum game, actually. From an economic standpoint, if we view players as units of wealth, the only creation of wealth comes from players new to MUDding.

The creation of new units would come by one of two ways:
1) A new player gets his start on a mud.
2) An existing player finds a mud that he likes and plays it in addition to his other muds.

These two factors are both influenced by the muds at which the player is currently playing. I don't know of any existing surveys that can quantify either of these factors enough to make a decision on this matter. While I would agree that there would be some "loss" (where loss is often defined in this case as failure to gain, which is usually something else entirely) to some people, I disagree that there is no benefit as well. I think that deciding either way without much quantitive evidence is unwise =).