[Soki]

Quick reply to Orion and Azhon on one point:

If you will click on the "Info" button next to Threshold, you will see listed under "features" as Pay per Play. It is not hidden on this site either.

Carry on!

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo) *sigh* So far, no one but you and Threshold seems to be having a problem with understanding it.

But you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty refuting it. Maybe it's because you say the same thing over and over again, and ignore what I've said?

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo) I also made it clear, I will not attempt to take into account personal finances. That has no relevance to the MUDs as entities. Free MUDs do not have a guaranteed source of income... they might get a donation here and there, but in general it will be nothing near the type of income a P2P MUD would have.

You don't seem to understand that personal finances are tightly coupled with your argument: You are saying that P2P muds shouldn't occupy a spot in the list because they can afford to buy an advertisement. I am saying that this point is impractical to apply because some free mud administrators can also afford buy an advertisement. You said yourself that you don't want to take into account personal finances, which demonstrates the impracticality of your logic. This is a central premise of your argument on the immorality of the issue, and without it your conclusion completely falls apart.

Furthermore, your argument makes complete sense to me, and I understand it fully. But remember way back there on the second page, where I requested that you give an attribute of P2P muds that decided the immorality of the issue? Your only attempt at giving one -- that they can afford an advertisement -- is what I have shown to be completely impractical to apply, and you've puzzingly decided to ignore it?

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo) So, if you're fixated on this personal income issue, you might as well give up now... it has no relevance here, and continually bringing it up serves no real purpose.

I don't see how you can honestly say that it has no relevance here, given the evidence I've laid out for you.

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo) (the point wasn't circular no matter how much you may wish for it to be)

One point does not a circle make, Orion. Circular logic occurs when one point is used to 'prove' another point, and then that point is then used to 'prove' the point that was used to prove it. Repeating the same thing in response to all of my questions is most certainly circular; it shows that you take your argument as a given.

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo) Bravo. You've stooped to the level of troll.

Have a little maturity, will you? We're all adults here.

[OnyxFlame]

Ok, this argument long ago stooped to juvenile drivel that I barely managed to stomach reading through in order to have the slightest idea what was going on. Why can't you guys just agree to disagree? Why is it so important that you change someone else's mind? You can think the other guy is an ass all you want, but posting about it repeatedly just makes you look like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a toy car.

The reasons I don't play P2P muds are simple.

1. I have no money.

2. Percentage-wise, there are at least as many P2P muds that I wouldn't enjoy as there are free muds that I wouldn't enjoy. I prefer RP oriented muds, whereas the vast majority of either pay or free muds involve mindless killing of mobs. I can try out a free mud and decide it sucks and stop playing, without losing anything except a little bit of time. I couldn't do that with a good lot of P2P muds because in the process I'd waste money I don't have in the first place. There's no point in spending money on something that sucks, and if you don't know whether it sucks or not, why pay for it?

I see nothing wrong with P2P muds as long as they use ethical business practices. I'm not gonna get all rabid and bash them for trying to get money for entertainment. Heck, you pay for music CD's and videotapes and DVD's and internet connections, why not pay to play a mud if you can afford it and want to do so? I just don't happen to be one of the people who can afford it and wants to do so.

I do think, however, that pay muds should be very up front about what they cost and why. (i.e. muds where you have to pay for skill/exp advancements) Tell us what it costs, period. None of that "small fee" or "piddly amount" bit. $10 might be piddly to one person but not to another. Heck, to some people $100 is piddly. It isn't to me. If a mud which makes a lot of money can't put out the effort to specify its cost in an obvious place (including in their rankings here or on other sites), then why should I expend the effort to play it? If a mud which makes a lot of money can't put out the effort to specify its cost, maybe they're not putting a lot of effort into their coding and the running of their system either.

As for pay muds "stealing" rankings from free ones, why not just have rankings for various categories, as well as a master ranking? Not only could there be a pay category and a free category, but also categories for RP vs. H&S, heck maybe even for average number of players. If there were more categories all the way around, people would find it a lot easier to find a mud they could enjoy and stick with for years, whether they have to pay for it or not.

[Threshold]

((( This was originally an actual point-by-point response. A few minutes later, I decided to go back and erase everything because continuing to argue each point seems to just fan the flames. I imagine that is of neither benefit nor interest to the general readership here. I left my statements that are 2 posts below because I felt it was important to point out OE's 100% false accusations regarding Threshold's TMS listing. Since I cannot delete this post, editing it out is the best I can do.)))

[Soki]

Thanks for getting everything right back on track, Onyx.

Comparing pay muds to starvation is taking things a little too far, I think.

There are plenty of P2P muds out there as well as free ones. For me, I just want one that I enjoy. I'm glad TMS is here to help me find interesting muds. I check the muds that seem interesting to me regardless of rank, but I check the ranked ones if they seem like something I would like.

No one is stealing anything from anyone unless it's Synozeer since this is HIS site.

[Threshold]

First, the statements that I and Threshold are such horrible, evil things:

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: If it makes you feel better you are in my opinion being immoral and taking advertising from those who need it, which in my opinion equates to stealing bread from the hungry.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: Can't have a community when so many of them are vultures, like Threshold, willing to pick off the weakest of the pack in an effort to get a step ahead.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: Let's see... underhanded business practice, willingness to step on those below you to gain any advantage you can... yeah. You have the perfect corporate appearance. You behave like slime, and are proud to do so.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: you're one of the soulless minions that is corporate evil.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot. You're successful because you're willing to do what it takes. Good job. Can't wait to see which option you choose when someone gives you the option to murder a puppy in cold blood for a hundred thousand dollars. I get the feeling poor little Rover will have a short lifespan, though I could be wrong.

... and I probably missed a few.


And then, the most important FOUR quotes:

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: That's nice. Is it mentioned in your listing here on TMS? What about your MUD's info link? Didn't think so. You are as bad as the rest of them. You lure them in enough to get them in the doors, when more than likely many of the people lured in would bypass you outright.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: That's nice. Is it on your MUD's ranking listing or in your MUD's information listing? Didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: Occasionally some people really are just in the right place... or they're slimeballs willing to kick their grandmother down the stairs. Your underhanded attempts to hide from people that your game is free until they actually go to the trouble of logging in fits into the latter category in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Orion elder wrote: What I dislike is the P2P MUDs who hide or are not clear about they fact that they do take payments. If you find it so necessary to not make it clear on your listing here that you take payments, one must wonder why exactly that is.

I wanted to quote these seperately as they are GLARING examples of how Orion Elder blathers on without making even the tiniest effort to EDUCATE himself about the topic.

FOUR times over the last few days Orion Elder accused me of not listing Threshold as a pay mud. He could *EASILY* have looked up our link. It isn't hard, we're right there on the front page.

Here is the link to Threshold's listing on TMS:

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....=thresh

Please note that in the FEATURES section, it clearly says: Pay-per-play

Our listing has ALWAYS said that.

Seriously OE, before you spew insults at people you should at least spend a few seconds researching your accusations.

[Dulan]

Eh. I've been enjoying this Unifex vs. OE argument, Threshold, but if you want to jump in, I get to jump in too. And, unlike with the previous subject, you won't be able to use the constant emotional appeals as well as irrelevant points to your audience, because this subject has none.

-D

[Kitsune]

*rubs his temples*

Wasn't this beat to death once before?

- The annoyance previously known as TG_Nek

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (Kitsune @ Jan. 22 2003) Wasn't this beat to death once before?

Believe it or not, to some of us this is new material. Perhaps you could enlighten us about the conclusions of the beating, or give an informative link?

[Alajha]

PTP MU*s go against everything I and my fellow Oldie MUDders stand for.
I don't know how to explain it... it's just an ethics thing. I love hosting MU*s. Though I'm currently not doing it, I've paid for multiple MU*s, and I would never ask anyone to pay to play on them... that's just gross.
Okay, so I'm an old DnD TT fan. And I'm willing to guess that alot of people who have been playing MU*s for 10 years + are, like me, against paying for MUDs.
Overall, I think it relates to the fact that we remember what it was like to have no money

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ Jan. 22 2003,18:19) Believe it or not, to some of us this is new material.  Perhaps you could enlighten us about the conclusions of the beating, or give an informative link?

It was a few months back.  I spent an hour or so last night trying to find the exact thread.  Granted, I'm not as "fly through the forums to find a lost thread capable" as some folk.  It started when I posted a poll that was running alongside the "P2P are evil" thread that was developing asking folks how they would prefer P2P mud's be listed on the ranking page (not the Features page).  Dulan made a crack/observation about many of the options weren't relevant or somesuch, focusing on 'leave the place to the cockroaches' joke option.   If someone remembers the thread and has better luck finding it, more power to 'em.

I think how it progressed was OE and I going round-robin for a few pages with some occassional shots being tossed in by Dulan and others.  How it concluded I can't say I recall, as the last two weeks of my finals interrupted my following of the debate.  I think I also felt I was arguing with a brick wall and forced myself to stop.

In my mind I think it concluded for me in deciding that everyone has different opinions, some people can't look past their own for the betterment of design purposes, and that I should probably focus my time on my schoolwork.  What probably happened was that I got a few flames after my last post and then it died.  

Personally, I don't play a P2P Mud.  But I'm not a hater and don't see any reason why they should be made to post it on the rankings page if they already identify themselves as such in Features.  It takes an extra few seconds to just check the Features page to find out more about the mud - or their web site.  Now looking beyond my OWN opinion if you are going to make an $ icon on the rankings page for P2P muds, for DESIGN PURPOSES why not have icons depicting several other preferences players might have (RP/PK ratio, code base, genre type).  I know I'd be upset  if I tried a listing that said it was heavy rp oriented in its ranking description only to find out it was a "rp to justify pk" mud.  It would probably upset me more than finding out it was P2P.  But I wouldn't demand them put an icon about it in the rankings page.  if folk are going to panic about one thing, why not cover all the basics?

Anyway, Yui, hope this clears up any 'enlighten'ment issues.  I meant no offense.  I just think there is too much P2P hate going on.   The more hate amongst 'the community', the less I could see valuable discussions occuring in the Forums.  I mean, I wouldn't want to discuss Game Design or Role-Play enhancements with a bunch of folk who hated me.  And there are a few very vocal, closed-minded people out there.

Peas.

[CSmith_Fan]

Originally Posted by (MelissaMeyer @ Jan. 21 2003,17:05) What we SHOULD be doing here is forming a community of people who would like to improve the overall state of text-based games ... reaching out to those who currently can't see past the graphical games enough to recognize that a text-game is a far greater quality of experience ... and that the brain is the most powerful 3D engine out there.

I've played P2P MUDs before and dont now simply not because of the issues mostly stated here a TMS on the unteengazillion threads about the topic but because of one simple little bit of personal taste of mine (that some people might or might not agree to) and that is this :

...If I have to pay more money (besides what i pay just to log on the net each month) then P2P MUDs had better give me the most bang for my buck. So far...NONE (imo btw..) can even come close. The closest one ever got was Terris (about the time they changed from free to P2P). If I can find the same playability and "bells and whistles" on a free MUD, I dont see why I'd have to pay $$ to play some other MUD.
Now dont get me wrong..there are some online games that i want to play like "Star Wars Galaxies" which btw is a graphic 3D game..but one that is so large the creator used Everquest as an example and said EQ would be considered a planet in SWG...and the game has 6 planets with a spaceship expansion pack comming out. If my compy had the processor speed to use it, I wouldnt be my current MUD.
But still..as far as MUDs go..if you want my $$$ give me something so spectacular that it will make me want to play it every waking moment and not even have a thought of doing something else.
Some may feel this way..some might not..just figured I'd put some opinion in.

Agreeing with a previous poster, I have no problems with P2P muds, as long as they are upfront about it.

What do irk me, however, are those "free" muds that "encourage" monetary donations by offering powerful in-game items or other benefits in return.

In a mud that I used to play, some of those donation items were almost a necessity to have any sort of success within the game world.

I would pick a monthly fee over this "the more you pay, the more powerful you are" crap anyday.

Melissa, however, did deserve whatever hostility she received from the other posters, just for ths sheer level of condescension in her post.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by (Friedman @ Jan. 22 2003,23:26) Melissa, however, did deserve whatever hostility she received from the other posters, just for ths sheer level of condescension in her post.

I wouldn't agree with that at all.  

In previous posts she has been a lot more composed and mature than I'd say a fair share of posters to the forums.

In fact, I think I'd go as far as to say that she more deserves the right to be condescending until folk rise up from the muckslinging, name calling, and flaming.

[PinkFloyd]

Reading this thread and noticing the little flagrant war going on between Orion Elder and Threshold, I decided to bring an unbiased and unobstructed view to the whole mess and see if anything can get sorted out. Is Threshold RPG misrepresenting itself by not advertising as a P2P MUD?
Orion elder said:

Originally Posted by That's nice. Is it on your MUD's ranking listing or in your MUD's information listing? Didn't think so.

Orion Elder, if you had just taken the 5 simple seconds and checked out Threshold's information listing yourself, you would have noticed that Threshold RPG does mention itself as a Pay-per-Play MUD. Lying, Orion Elder, weakens your argument greatly. Furthermore, personal attacks might sharpen your ego, but if you think they make your argument stronger, then you are dead wrong. Calling Threshold stupid was certainly uncalled for. Just shows how bitter you really are.

As for Threshold's reply, there were no lies he stated in his responses. The only problem I had with Threshold RPG was this. I'll quote this from Threshold.

Originally Posted by Firstly, and most importantly, you cannot even MAKE a character or get INSIDE the game of Threshold without being forced to read *DETAILED* files that explain our system explicitly. Furthermore, you can play the game for 100-200 hours before you are required to register (as I said, we operate by a shareware model) and there are no recurring fees (i.e. no monthly or annual fees). Secondly, on our web site: http://www.threshold-rpg.com/register.html.

I decided to go through the character creation process to see if this was true. Threshold was true to his word on the first case. Before a person can finish the character creation mode and start the game, one the files that they must read is the help register file. I would post the file here, but I would need permission from Threshold; however, the file in there is very specific that Threshold is pay-per-play and highlights something very important. Namely that if people do not register money to a game they don't enjoy, and if that's the case with Threshold, then they should not. Orion Elder, if you are so concerned about deceitful practices Threshold might be playing, then I certainly think you should log into Threshold and read it for yourself.

The only problem I had with Threshold was in the second example he stated in the quote. The website mentioned about registration does mention the requirement of registration, however when a person goes to the Threshold Home Page, there is no link to the registration page from there. I think it would be helpful if there was a link to the registration page from the Threshold Home Page (www.threshold-rpg.com).

Orion Elder, please quit your bickering. One lesson I learned when I immigrated here was that "there is no such thing as a free lunch". That applies to the situation with the free MUDs vs. pay-per-play MUDs. Most pay-per-play MUDs mention in their information pages that they are such. Furthermore, your argument that Pay-per-play MUD's should not use the ranking list as a means of advertisement is certainly ridiculous. If the opportunity is there and it does not cost you a dime why not take up on it? Most businesses out there certainly would, be they non-profit or profit. Furthermore, if you are furious that the top MUDs on the ranking list are pay-per-play MUDs, then that should tell you something about them. Namely that most of them out there are better overall than the free MUDs.

Orion Elder, while your ideas are certainly noble and well-meaning, they are just out of touch with reality. I hope you realize that.

End of rant.

An Unbiased Forum Poster.

[Nevynral]

A rather amusing thread. A couple questions, though.

How is it that a P2P mud can 'steal' something from a free mud when the free mud doesn't own it in the first place?

If a free mud is just that, free, then why do they really care about losing the slot to a P2P mud? Or to rephrase, why is it wrong for someone who lives off the fruit of his work to occupy a slot that would otherwise be taken by a hobbyist who doesn't depend on the success of his hobby? It would seem that where 'need' is concerned, a businessman needs customers, a hobbyist merely desires them.

[Azhon]

Thanks to whoever pointed out the info thing. For some reason I never noticed it. Stupid me.

I take back my statement on Thres