[somied]

Originally Posted by (Hajamin @ Jan. 13 2006,13:23) I am EXTREMELY insulted by your implications that Koreans are a bunch of unskilled people working in a shoe factory.

Hi, I'm extremely insulted by your implication that it takes unskilled people to work in a shoe factory.

Originally Posted by I'm an American that has lived in Korea for the past three years and have a Korean wife, have you ever been here or even met someone from Korea? Korea and Japan are right next to each other in economics and technology, both are far more technicalogical than America.

Wrong. And even if it was right, just look at the majority of what kind of 'technology' both of these countries boast: American.

Originally Posted by Korea is the most wired country in the world. 75% of Korean homes have DSL or better, where America around 30% of homes have dial-up or better.

Again, wrong. As with 99.9% of statistics spewed forth by forum posters, yours was made up on the spot with no factual information backing it. Check out the real statistics here, as reported by the CIA and other sources. South Korea only has ~2.7% higher internet usage per capita than the United States. Both of which are hovering around 65% of total population (where on Earth did you get your 30% figure?). As far as broadband usage goes, ~50% of Americans have broadband. About ~60% of Koreans have broadband, however, this is largely due to the population density in Korea. They provide all this connectivity with just 13,760 miles of fiber optic cabling throughout the entire country. By comparison, Verizon laid over 20,000 miles of fiber optic cabling in West Virginia alone.

Originally Posted by A lot of the technology you use every day, expecially cellphones, was invented in Korea or Japan.

Wrong. Last I checked, Martin Cooper, Rudy Krolopp, and John Mitchell were all Americans. http://www.cellular.co.za/cellphone_inventor.htm

Originally Posted by Learn what you speak about before you throw out racist comment.

The same could be said about you throwing around your anti-American ignorance.

[tehScarecrow]

It's not really complicated. The IRE games aren't free if you want to do more than dabble, and use the word "free" to advertise and attract people.

Oh, and the cell phone was invented in Norway  

[Keldar]

Now, this didn't take long to go from a terminology discussion to figuring out which country is more leet.

As for who invented the cellphone, TV, radio, hellicopter, the bicycle and the wheel... I am amazed that there is any confusion - as all those inventions are patently and unmistakebly Russian.

[Gorgulu]

I only read the first page, because I have things to do.

Sooo... why all the debate? All the IRE games are free to play. How can you argue that? You can PLAY them without spending any money. You can't get all the 1337 skillz and l00t, but nowhere are any of their games labled as 'Free to get all the skillz and l00t'. Not only is there no legal argument to be had, there's no linguistic one.

I'm guessing by this point the discussion has gone totally off-topic and I'm making an idiot of myself. Meh.

[Hajamin]

Originally Posted by (somied @ Jan. 14 2006,05:28) Again, wrong. As with 99.9% of statistics spewed forth by forum posters, yours was made up on the spot with no factual information backing it. Check out the real statistics here, as reported by the CIA and other sources. South Korea only has ~2.7% higher internet usage per capita than the United States. Both of which are hovering around 65% of total population (where on Earth did you get your 30% figure?). As far as broadband usage goes, ~50% of Americans have broadband. About ~60% of Koreans have broadband, however, this is largely due to the population density in Korea. They provide all this connectivity with just 13,760 miles of fiber optic cabling throughout the entire country. By comparison, Verizon laid over 20,000 miles of fiber optic cabling in West Virginia alone.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1422
http://www.technet.org/tnd_news/sfchron_031305/
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/korea.html

[Anitra]

Gorgulu @ on Jan. 13 2006,21:20

Originally Posted by I'm guessing by this point the discussion has gone totally off-topic and I'm making an idiot of myself. Meh.

You are correct abouth both things. Entering a discussion without reading through the entire thread is usually not a wise thing to do.
And yes, the discussion has been thrown off-topic, as usual.

In case you or anyone else are interested, the most valid parts can be found on the pages 8 and 9.

[eiz]

Ah, nothing like off-topic US vs. Them rubbish to start the day...

Did you just cite Wired as a source? ... Man.

FWIW, 42% of the total US population (61% of US Internet users) has broadband, as of September 2005. And as far as I know, Sweden and Hong Kong are still kicking everyone's ass, South Korea included.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (eiz @ Jan. 14 2006,06:22) Ah, nothing like off-topic US vs. Them rubbish to start the day... Did you just cite Wired as a source? ... Man. FWIW, 42% of the total US population (61% of US Internet users) has broadband, as of September 2005. And as far as I know, Sweden and Hong Kong are still kicking everyone's ass, South Korea included.

The point Hajamin was making was that Ilkidarios was engaging in completely ignorant cultural slandering with his dig at South Koreans as having nothing to do but work in shoe factories.

And Hajamin is also correct about South Korea leading the world in broadband penetration. Here's another link:
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D....04.html

1. South Korea
2. Hong Kong
3. Netherlands


--matt

[Richter]

While I understand that is it not generally considered a good idea to post without reading the entire topic, I grow tired of wading through semantics and mudslinging (pun intended), and thus have only read about half of the ten pages here.

That said, I do believe it would be wonderful for a deeper classification system to be created for the MUDs listed on TMS. However, if that is going to happen, it should at least be accurate. My experience with MUDs have largely been with IRE games, and they are indeed free to play. Some characters in Aetolia that I've had, have never once purchased credits, and one or both have gotten to be publically known during their day and age. I was a decent fighter (in comparison to people with as much MUDding experience as I, I didn't expect to be a top ten fighter when I started MUDding), I was well known in the circles I ran in, and most of all I enjoyed playing for free.

Now, in Lusternia, I'm regarding as someone with extraordinary wealth, primarily due to the fact that I finally have a decent job. But could those things that I've purchased be gained without credits? Indeed they could! In fact, as I've stated in the past here and elsewhere, there's a fantastic example of a player that rose to lv100, had many sets of skills fully learned, and the only time she got credits from outside the game, was when someone purchased a small amount on her, to make sure that if she ever went inactive, she wouldn't eventually be wiped.

I've seen an heard about other MUDs that advertise free to play, but are not. These are the ones that require you to pay a fee up front, and then the rest of your gaming experience is "free". Now, is making you pay to play free? Er, no. Is IRE falsely advertising because it says it is free to play. No! Just because you can accelerate your character's growth with the possibility to purchase credits does not mean that the game is not free, because I know there are hundreds of Lusternians that have never purchased credits.

So, in summary, there's no reason why we could not have a more in-depth system, but it should accurately reflect what the game really is.

[eiz]

Originally Posted by The point Hajamin was making was that Ilkidarios was engaging in completely ignorant cultural slandering with his dig at South Koreans as having nothing to do but work in shoe factories.

I am aware of this. He also claimed that 30% of US homes have dialup or better, which is complete nonsense (see recent statistics).

Equating Korea to Japan economically was pretty silly too, considering that Japan's economy is roughly 4 times as large as South Korea's. I'm not saying that justifies Ilkidarios's comment, but come on. Ignorance does not justify further ignorance.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (eiz @ Jan. 14 2006,15:29) Ignorance does not justify further ignorance.

Sure, but there's a difference between misquoting a stat (even though the fact that he was using the stat to demonstrate - that the US trails South Korea in broadband penetration - is true) and saying, effectively, "Koreans are morons who have nothing better to do but work in shoe factories and play Kart rider."

--matt

[Keldar]

Originally Posted by (eiz @ Jan. 14 2006,15:29) Equating Korea to Japan economically was pretty silly too, considering that Japan's economy is roughly 4 times as large as South Korea's.

Japan's economy is almost four times that of ROK because Japan's population is almost three times that of ROK. It doesn't mean that ROK is uncomparable economically with Japan, the two are pretty much on the same level of economic development, which is evident from GDP per capita of both countries: ~ 19,000 US$ for ROK and ~29,000 US$ for Japan.

To illustrate, the US GDP was 11.75 trln US$ in 2004, while that of Japan in the same year - 3.75 trln, which is over 3x difference. GDP per capita in the US was almost twice that in Japan. Yet the two countries' economies are perfectly comparable, and both of them are classified as "developed". For further illustrations you can compare the economies of Japan and Switzerland, or the US and Luxembourg.

Furthermore, in specialized studies on the economy of Northeast Asia, bundling ROK and Japan economically had become a custom that doesn't even require a justification anymore. Especially when talking about capital and technology sources in the region.

P.S. All data - CIA purchasing power parity estimates.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by That said, I do believe it would be wonderful for a deeper classification system to be created for the MUDs listed on TMS. However, if that is going to happen, it should at least be accurate. My experience with MUDs have largely been with IRE games, and they are indeed free to play. Some characters in Aetolia that I've had, have never once purchased credits, and one or both have gotten to be publically known during their day and age. I was a decent fighter (in comparison to people with as much MUDding experience as I, I didn't expect to be a top ten fighter when I started MUDding), I was well known in the circles I ran in, and most of all I enjoyed playing for free.

 Be a little more realistic Richter. YOU do not have to buy credits to succeed in an IRE game but somebody does. All those credits on the credit market didn't appear out of thin air. Someone bought them. The rare exception is someone who manages to win a large amount of bardic competitions

[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by So, in summary, there's no reason why we could not have a more in-depth system, but it should accurately reflect what the game really is.

Well, here's something I said back on Page 9;

Originally Posted by No, I think specifying is useful for the average player. As Valg says, their time deserves to be respected. Matt, you want to have your little blurb and still be categorized with the "free-to-play" MUDs(which are largely, 100% free and not skirting around the edge)? I would not be against a specific system, like this one. Examples: Achaea["Free-to-Play, Pay-for-Perks"] Legends of Karinth["Free-to-Play, Donations Accepted"] Threshold["Pay-for-Registration"] Dragonrealms["Pay Monthly, Pay-for-Perks"] It would take an hour to come up with 4-6 terms that every MUD could find its way into. Then, a simple tag or color-code could be added, with a key/etc for the player to use. It is being made out to seem like drawing the lines in the sand is too difficult a task to be undertaken. It is not. I agree that the economic-model should either be removed or specified further and made easier to access for the users of the site. I prefer the latter by about 200x more than the former, however. No player is going to feel cheated if you give them more knowledge at their disposal. Achaea["Free-to-Play, Pay-for-Perks"] Makes sense to me. Does it not to anyone else?

I believe your defense of IRE only supports my own idea(that somehow got lost and undiscussed amongst more flaming posts).

[somied]

Originally Posted by (Hajamin @ Jan. 14 2006,03:47) http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1422 http://www.technet.org/tnd_news/sfchron_031305/ http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/korea.html

Wow, please tell me you didn't just cite references pertaining to internet technology that are blatantly dated 3.5 years ago? In any case, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the CIA is a tad more credible than "Spero News".

Oh, and just as a side note, not a single one of your sources claimed the same thing you claimed. One of them even agreed with me *boggle*...


Edit: Just thought I should also point out that nation vs nation internet penetration comparison isn't fair unless you also take into account population and geographic size. If all ~300 million Americans lived in the state of West Virginia, I can guarantee over 75% of them would have broadband too. It wouldn't be too hard to get that kind of penetration if it only costed us the same to wire the U.S. as it did South Korea (probably roughly 1/100th the cost). And if you'd like to compare strictly numbers, the U.S. wins hands down regardless.

[Richter]

Originally Posted by Be a little more realistic Richter. YOU do not have to buy credits to succeed in an IRE game but somebody does. All those credits on the credit market didn't appear out of thin air. Someone bought them. The rare exception is someone who manages to win a large amount of bardic competitions.

I'm being quite realistic. I think that if I've been able to be successful, and enjoy myself in my past ventures, then anyone can (unless you account for maturity and common sense, in that case, some people are naturally screwed). I'm not a particularly skilled gamer who spends 24 hours a day in front of the computer either.

But I do feel I've gotten a bit off topic, so I'll try to redirect my post.

Let's say that you join a club, and in this case, we'll use music as an example. You're in a music enthusiasts club, they play music, listen to music, and talk about music. Now, this club costs money to keep it running, as many clubs do. The new members get to listen to some of the music, and play some of the beginner instruments, and as they progress, through time and work, they're allowed to play and listen to more and more, untill finally they have access to everything. This may take years, but it is possible. Some people, however, donate money to keep the club running, and instantly gain access to some of the things that it might have taken other members time and effort to get.

Now the question is, is the club still free? Of course it is. Should it be advertised as such? Indeed.

That was perhaps somewhat of an odd example, but there's my point. It is also 3am, I'm feeling a little bit nutty, and oh... I do believe Koreans can do more than work in shoe factories.

[Protoss]

This thread has almost as much comic value as former President Clinton asking whoever was grilling him on the stand "Well that depends on what you definition of 'is' is".

Look the word free up in the dictionary and leave it at that.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by I'm being quite realistic. I think that if I've been able to be successful, and enjoy myself in my past ventures, then anyone can (unless you account for maturity and common sense, in that case, some people are naturally screwed). I'm not a particularly skilled gamer who spends 24 hours a day in front of the computer either.

And that is the point Richter. AnyONE can but not EVERYone cane. If every player of an IRE game tried to advance solely by subsiisting off the credit market or winning bardics there would be no IRE games because ther