[Kyandra]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ May 11 2002,01:33 am) At the risk of sounding bitchy, I don't think it's a good idea to close down threads because there is already a thread with a remotely similar subject. My example is Kyandra's thread "Censorship", which I think had an interesting subject that might have stood a better chance of generating a good discussion than this thread has. (Censorship, both on boards and on some muds, is something that quite frequently occurs, and it would have been interesting to see some views on it

Isn't censoring a thread on censorship the ultimate form of the latter. Thank you for your kind words. At the risk of being banned from these forums (and if I am right at the moment I would say no serious loss) I would like to start a referendum for the resignation of the censor. (Maybe that should be the poll).

Maybe I need to repeat a little of what I said before, in my censored thread. Take serious mud discussions to the serious parts of the form. This one is for being silly and having fun and, I will add, should be run by someone who has not forgotten what fun is.

I see many of you young players who are so darned (I really wanted to use a stronger word here, read it in yourselves) serious about it all that you have forgotten that above all else (Unless you own evercrack and are making money at it) that a mud is a GAME that we are supposed to be playing for FUN and ENJOYMENT.

Take away the fun
Take away the goofyiness
Take away the laughter
Take away the community each (larger) mud has

What do you have left -- nothing working PLAYing.

Take away the fun, the goofyiness, the humor, the sense of community the silliness here has and what do you have left?

A group of mudders who will go elsewhere, leaving this place so much poorer for their loss. Because they are not the newbie inexperienced players. They are the ones who (while you may not always believe it) care.

ps -- thank you Molly

[Sidmouth]

As for me having no sense of humor: I certainly do, and my bookmarks contain a small selection of humorous websites.  This is not one of them.

This website is for the discussion of muds.  Sure, muds are a form of entertainment, but that has never stopped literary critics from hotly debating the merit of an author, or high life elites in New York from trashing this or that new broadway play.  I think most people here are here because they wish to discuss the nitty gritty of muds.  What makes a mud entertaining?  How can I make mine more entertaining?

To take a comparison, Slashdot is filled with spammy posts, some of which are quite funny.  Even if you do find links to a certain website (you know what I'm talking about), calls for slashdot blackouts and "why *BSD is dying" posts to be funny (and the latter 2 are very amusing to me), you probably do not read them, and any legitimate poster would almost certainly not speak up in their defense.  This is noise run wild, and it is a -moderated- forum where you can avoid most spam by browsing at high mods.  Topmudsites has no such system.  The point is, I don't go to slashdot for funnies.  If I wanted to laugh, I could go to seanbaby.com, forum3000.org, thespamletters, or any of a number of other sites.

Now, if it is the case that the majority of people on the boards do not find the signal to ratio noise of these boards to be annoying, then perhaps nothing should be done about it.  However, if many people find that: a) the spam is annoying, and b) it damages the usefulness of the forums for appropriate discussion, then something -should- be done.  It is my opinion that people have mixed views about a, but I believe we have a majority that will agree with b.  Again, the very least that should be done is for the posts to be removed from the recent discussions, as this will greatly mitigate b.

-Sidmouth

[EDIT]: Decided I did not agree with myself about censorship.  If anyone feels that Orion is being unfair, I think it is appropriate that they should bring it up.  Just keep in mind that this is a private forum and Orion has been entrusted by Synozeer to censor if he sees fit.  If people have an issue with Orion's management of threads, they should bring it up with him or Synozeer, but it's a little early to call for his resignation on the basis of a post or two that you felt was justified and he didn't.

[EDIT]: Reread Kyandra's original censorship post and find myself agreeing with my original statements (which I deleted). As the owner of this -private- forum, Synozeer is well within his rights to censor language and offensive humor if he sees fit. My clarification above is in the spirit that if you believe a moderator is truly abusing their powers, debate is welcome. However, I think Synozeer has made it clear that he objects to strong language on these boards, and so it is quite clear that Orion is acting appropriately to me.

If you wish the policy on strong language to be changed, then start a thread, but make it a little more constructive than "Orion should resign and only Nazis disallow dirty jokes".

[Dionae]

I agree that these forums do not need to be all serious discussions. I understand you guys want to have fun, but some things like the color of your socks, what your favorite fast food restaurant is, etc. I could care less about. I know it was just a joke, but some of us are just sick about the way these forums seem to be heading.

I do have a sense of humor. I enjoy reading things in Mud Humor and posting in the quotefile thread and all, but at least those things are semi-mud related. Really, when someone said why should Synozeer spare the bandwith for something that is totally unrelated to his site, I completely agree.

And I hate to see the Tavern of the Blue Hand become the forum for spammers and pointless, stupid posts. Some things, like the What Alignment are you? and What DnD Character are you? threads were interesting, and a nice way to learn more about people, while still having some relevance to muds and mudders' interests. Yet, with all the spam, it drowns out some of the more relevant posts.

I started a thread in Tavern of the Blue Hand about Retaining Players, which seemed to spark some serious discussion. I don't think it really fit anywhere else, as it wasn't an advanced mud concept, it didn't have to do with roleplaying, or building, or coding, or anything. But threads like that get lost in all the pointless threads, and some people don't even visit the Tavern of the Blue Hand because of all the mindless posts.

So, while you guys may enjoy the random silly posts and all, I think you should respect the majority of the people here's wishes. And if you really must post these kinds of threads, like someone said, there are plenty of other places where it would be more fitting.

[Maggie]

Originally Posted by I see many of you young players who are so darned (I really wanted to use a stronger word here, read it in yourselves) serious about it all that you have forgotten that above all else (Unless you own evercrack and are making money at it) that a mud is a GAME that we are supposed to be playing for FUN and ENJOYMENT.

I just wanted to make a couple comments about this.  First, I don't consider myself to be a young player; I am older than you are.  I also think that you seem to have confused the forums with the games being discussed.  The MUDs are meant for fun and enjoyment, but I was under the impression that this site was for sharing information and ideas aboiut them.  When I want to play, I go to the game rather than doing it here.

There is nothing wrong with my sense of humor; I even find a lot of the spam funny.  I just think that so much of it in a forum not meant for it is very disruptive and detracts from the purpose of the boards.  Having worked as a monitor/moderator, I know that people tend to dislike anyone who restricts what they're able to write; but I also know that with nobody doing that, the forum is doomed to be nothing but a slow moving chat room.

[LikitaRenn]

well, i don't know if it's really necessary to say that i agree with kyandra, since what she said is basically what i've been saying all along, but i will anyways. i thought it sucked when no one really listened to me, and i think it sucks worse that no one's listening to her. i was new here and i didn't really have an influence, so why should anyone listen to me, right? but from what i've seen, kyandra seems to be someone who has a pretty valuable opinion, and she's not a "spammer" or anything like that, so you people should maybe let some of the stuff she says sink in. you guys keep saying that no one wants to deal with the forums after it becomes full of "useless" posts, but i think that a lot of people won't want to come if it becomes all serious and boring! at least leave ONE forum FUN! i mean, if you don't want to read about socks, you can NOT click the thread that says "what color are your socks?" am i the only one who thinks it's pretty obvious?

-likita

[AngelaChristine]

Fun for who?

Forums are supposed to be fun, but there are many thousands of forums out there so ideally everyone can find one that suits their intrests. A few "community" posts that have nothing to do with the main topic can be fun, but they shouldn't take over. When fun but off topic posts by a handfull of users start out-numbering on topic posts the group is on it's way down, I've seen this happen both with web forums and USENET groups. New readers are turned off because the group is mostly fluff and in jokes that they don't get, not the topic they came to the site to discuss.

I find discussions that have some depth to be fun, I like discussing the implications of things. I don't find reading fluffy chats between people I don't know to be fun, that sort of thing would be better served by IRC, ICQ or private email. Is there some exhibitionist thrill folks get by holding pointless private discussions in public? Shallow, off-topic discussions between just a few people (say 5 or 6) clutter the boards and make them LESS fun for most of the other readers. I've barely read these forums in the last few months because nearly every topic in the recent discussions box has nothing to do with mudding.

Taking the TotBH threads out of the recent discussions box would help. Another option would be for some savvy chatter to create a #topmudsites channel on an IRC server, creating a fun, informal place for members of the community to chat without disrupting ongoing mud related discussions here.


Angela Christine

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Kyandra wrote: Take away the fun, the goofyiness, the humor, the sense of community the silliness here has and what do you have left?

Take away the mud, and what do you have left? Discussions which don't belong here.

Originally Posted by A group of mudders who will go elsewhere, leaving this place so much poorer for their loss.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I would not consider it any great loss. On the old forums it was always understood that the Tavern was for general discussions related to muds - this is, after all, Top Mud Sites. And everything was fine back then, without your "group of mudders". I'd be more than happy to go back to the way things were; I come here to discuss muds, not to participate in idle chatter.

My suggestion is that Synozeer changes the forum descriptions to state the obvious. Just as we have warnings that state "this coffee is hot" or notices on packets of salted peanuts which state "this product contains nuts", so Synozeer should place a notice stating that the discussion forums on Top Mud Sites are for discussing issues related to muds.

[Andvari]

Don't you see what they've done already? By making such a big stink and whining about 'censorship' and 'why aren't we allowed to do whatever we want' they've made the focus of the forum all about them, anyway.

I say just silently sweep their #### under the rug (translation: into the trash can) every time you see it until Synozeer updates the description from 'The place to post about anything' to 'The place to post about MUD-related issues that don't fit in any of the other forums' or something like it.

Otherwise, this place looks like an AOL chatroom. I'm surprised there's been no 'hey baby wanna cyber' or 'a/s/l' yet.

[Shao_Long]

hey...I still dont understand..
If you look for serious discussions - why cant you go to serious discussions section ?
and if knowledge that on another section some people talk and think differently,troubles you that much,why dont you start complaining that somewhere in internet there are some stupid discussions ? somewhere in all our damn world ?

Isnt the knowledge that mudders are here,is enough to make this thing mud-related ??

[Xanferious]

I sorta agree with shao_long here serious discussions are in the other categories of the forums, the tavern still though is intended for mud related, however it doesn't mean they have to be serious

[Seth]

Ah yes, the wonders of discussion forums. It's like politics, they can't agree even on the single most boring thing, even here. It's like there is this constant war against anything that isn't related to MUDs. First it was the spam and now it's the talk that's not related to spam which would lead me straight to hell, if I were to believe the lot of you people.

Now seriously, I think general unrelated talk should be allowed. Why? Simple, because it's thanks to that this is a community, not a load of people who just post allot and about 300 people who lurk and leech information with ever saying something themselves. (those people talk the loudest in here, odd isn't it?)

That, and maybe, MAYBE there are people here who are here for that community who you're all so enthusiastically willing to kill? I am, for one. I couldn't care less about MUDs. I played one and I liked it because of the social aspect, but the MUD itself was boring like *BEEP*. And I honestly think I'm not the only one here who just likes being here to talk to people, sometimes in a silly way and other times not.

Anyways, I fully encourage a seperation from the front-end Recent Forum Discussion thingy. If people want to read any interesting threads in here, they shouldn't be such a lazy bum and click the two damned links that lead to the Tavern. Don't ruin the fun for others because you're too lazy to click a few links.

[Shao_Long]

listen,folk ! maybe you really should pass a petition to Synozeer asking to kill the comunity,leaving just info ??

hell,people ! Not everyone's here just for 'information'.People mean more.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by [b]Seth wrote:[b] Now seriously, I think general unrelated talk should be allowed. Why? Simple, because it's thanks to that this is a community, not a load of people who just post allot and about 300 people who lurk and leech information with ever saying something themselves. (those people talk the loudest in here, odd isn't it?)

That statement makes absolutely no sense. How can someone lurk without saying anything, yet talk the loudest?

However you are wrong about the community aspect. The community here has built up around people who like to discuss muds. It's only recently that other people have decided to come here and talk about socks and other completely unrelated things. And if you "couldn't care less about MUDs" then what on earth are you doing on Top Mud Sites?

Once again I reiterate, Top Mud Sites is a forum for discussing muds. If I want to learn about your socks, I'll find a sock discussion forum (and if I WASN'T interested in socks, I wouldn't log on there, tell everyone that I wasn't interested in socks, then proceed to start discussing muds).

Really, you people disgust me. Learn a few manners.

[Valg]

Given that the majority of non-MUD posts on these forums are generated by a small group of people, one solution is to ban that small group of people by IP, given that they ignore all suggestions otherwise.

I agree that it's good to have a forum for miscellany, so long as the miscellany is at least peripherally related to MUDs. There are plenty of good threads on the Tavern, but they're difficult to find, and the spam has greatly hindered my desire to use this site.

[Shao_Long]

well,point me to ANY pure spam posts in Tavern for last days..
(Socks dont count - they had a REAL reason )

[Xanferious]

banning people by ip is hard cuz most of those n00bs use aol and its not a static ip, if you ban the host isp all toagther then your losing the others that come here to talk about the important stuff, but everyone needs to chill, the forums have been settleing down tho.

[LikitaRenn]

god, how freaking hard is it?? i mean, if you're not interested in socks, there's a simple solution... DON'T CLICK THE "SOCKS" THREAD! is that not why there are titles on the threads?!? i don't understand what's the big deal! i mean, i love the fact that i came in here and people have befriended me! the community is the most important part to me, and if you kill that, you will lose a lot more people than just the "small group" of people posting the threads that aren't mud-related. if you want just plan boring information, read a freaking encyclopedia, or stay in the serious discussions. but some people want to interact with other people with the same interests, in more than just a "hey, can you tell me how to...?" or a "hey, any suggestions on...?" manner. jeez, two of the people in here are two of my best friends, and that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the silly things in the tavern, because the things in the "discussions" bore me. (not all mudders know how to code or build, some enjoy PLAYING it, and leaving the techie stuff to those who are good at it, so a lot of the stuff in there is way useless to those of us who fit into that catagory)

muds are games, and games are meant to be fun... so how did you mudders get your heads stuck so far up your collective ass?

and i completely agree with shao on this point.....

Originally Posted by Isnt the knowledge that mudders are here,is enough to make this thing mud-related ??

you think we're being selfish by wanting to discussion "silly" things, but aren't you being a bit hypocritical by trying to make us stop? where's the good old american freedom of speech? "can't we all just get along?" (and call a good proctologist to help remove your heads so you can see other people's points???)

-likita

[Mason]

As of 11:24pm central time, shao, xanf, seth, and likita have a combined total of 997 posts. TMS has a total of 3040 posts. There are 403 total members. That means that 4 people have about 33% of the posts while 399 people have the other 67%. Arguably, a great percentage of those 997 posts have been spam, or arguments about spam. Many other people's posts have been in response to the infamous 4.

I believe these facts speak for themselves.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by the community is the most important part to me, and if you kill that, you will lose a lot more people than just the "small group" of people posting the threads that aren't mud-related.

The "community" you refer to appears to consist of yourself and three others. So why don't you take your "community" elsewhere else?

Originally Posted by if you want just plan boring information, read a freaking encyclopedia, or stay in the serious discussions. but some people want to interact with other people with the same interests, in more than just a "hey, can you tell me how to...?" or a "hey, any suggestions on...?" manner.

You appear to miss the point. This is Top Mud Sites. The forums here are for discussing muds. If you want to discuss other things, then take it to email or to a private chatroom. You are not wanted here.

Originally Posted by jeez, two of the people in here are two of my best friends, and that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the silly things in the tavern, because the things in the "discussions" bore me. (not all mudders know how to code or build, some enjoy PLAYING it, and leaving the techie stuff to those who are good at it, so a lot of the stuff in there is way useless to those of us who fit into that catagory)

If you want to play, play. If you want to talk about muds, then do so. But this is not a mud, nor a chatroom.

Originally Posted by Isnt the knowledge that mudders are here,is enough to make this thing mud-related ??

No.

Originally Posted by you think we're being selfish by wanting to discussion "silly" things, but aren't you being a bit hypocritical by trying to make us stop?

No.

Originally Posted by where's the good old american freedom of speech?

1. I am not American.
2. You apparently don't understand the meaning of "freedom of speech".

[KaVir]

An interesting fact from the statistics supplied by Mason is that if every member of these boards posted as frequently as the four individuals he mentioned, there would be over one hundred thousand posts every month. Let's just be glad that most of the other posters show a little more consideration!

[Seth]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 12 2002,10:51 pm) However you are wrong about the community aspect.  The community here has built up around people who like to discuss muds.  It's only recently that other people have decided to come here and talk about socks and other completely unrelated things.  And if you "couldn't care less about MUDs" then what on earth are you doing on Top Mud Sites?

Read the goddamn post, Mr. I-dont-care-what-someone-else-says-as-long-as-I-can-bitch-at-that-person. It clearly says that the social aspect is very much interesting, same here on these forums. I talk with people because I like to talk with them, not because I am so obsessed with MUDs I can't even have fun anymore or a decent life, like most of you turdflingers around here.

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 12 2002,10:51 pm) Really, you people disgust me.  Learn a few manners.

You, my friend, make a crap example for teaching us manners.

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 13 2002,10:35 am) The "community" you refer to appears to consist of yourself and three others.  So why don't you take your "community" elsewhere else?

KaVir is partially right here. There is no TMS community anymore, just a bunch of people who take MUDs far to serious and forget that the whole concept of creating a MUD is to have fun in a nice way. Instead, they bitch at everyone and forget this having fun principle altogether, with the only social contacts that they still have consisting of MUD gatherings where they eventually forget their own RL name. I pity that kind of people.

These are the kind of people who make up the majority of TMS. Close minded people. People I do not want to associate myself with. Henceforth I have decided to let these forums die out and rot in peace, because they are not worth the effort to argue about. I have met several wonderful people here, I had nice arguements and I have been astonished that people who are running social games can be such utter assholes.

The avatar hosting service will go down in one week. PM/email me your avatar URL and I'll decide if I'm going to keep it or not, based on the fact wether you are a <removed the 'F' bomb. -OE> asshole or not. Anyone remotely nice who is interested in still contacting me, feel free to MSN me at jeroenvogelpoel@hotmail.com. The rest of you can screw yourself and drop dead, thank you very much.

Closed minds should come with closed mouths.

[KaVir]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Shao_Long]

im tend to agree with Seth here..you people make EXCELLENT work in disrupting communities..
maybe you work in some special agency on communications devastation assingment..

Im posting a poll,and,well..we'll see..If the results will be just as i fear they will be..well,bye-bye TMS...

*edited to add ps*


PS. and,yes freaking stop already yer flaming ! I suppose everything was posted in this thread can be answered by mine last two polls..Hell,do you care,people ??or about people...

[cainers]

Okay, very simple.  What URL do you type into your browser when you come here, topMUDsites.com.

If you wish to discuss socks, it would stand to reason that you would go to this site:

I LOVE SOCKS!

Which appears to be a really neat site about this guy, and his love for socks.

However, if you would like to discuss relevant mud related issues, then we are happy to have you aboard.

And BTW, The mud community that frequents here, and on mudconnector is a very tight knit group. Those that feel we are obscessed with MUDS i have two words for you; No ####!
You think anybody puts up with the #### and hassle that a mudder puts up with without being obscessed? *shrug*

Thats it,
Cainers

[Shao_Long]

the people ASKED for socks..see the suggestions forum..
and,ask you again..SHOW ME SOME RECENT SPAM..
Or stop the hell flaming about how bad it is !

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Shao_Long wrote: im tend to agree with Seth here..you people make EXCELLENT work in disrupting communities..

Actually our community was fine for the last couple of years, until you lot turned up.

Originally Posted by Im posting a poll,and,well..we'll see..If the results will be just as i fear they will be..well,bye-bye TMS...

Excellent! Just two more to go, then. What do I need to vote?

[Shao_Long]

hmmmmm...After seeing your reaction..
Think I shoulda hang around there for a while more
sorry

[Jazuela]

I'll offer a few words as someone who was once the target of flames here by KaVir and Co.

I broke the rules out of ignorance, and got thoroughly roasted for it. In the private forums I go to elsewhere, such flaming is strictly against ToS and anyone flaming someone just because that someone did something wrong would be considered JUST as much in violation of the rules as the person who they were flaming. So I came here with that perspective. And I was flabbergasted, and not just a little irate, when I was treated so poorly.

I still think flames - insults - slamming someone intentionally to make them feel like idiots - is wrong. No matter what the reason.

But in the current trend on these boards, I've seen people try to deal with "violators of the spirit of the boards if not the actual policies" in fairly polite ways. At first. And then it seemed that these "violators" have decided that this is their new playground and if everyone else who's been here for years doesn't like it, then THEY can find a new playground.

I'll tell ya something. THIS AIN'T NO PLAYGROUND. If you want to play, log into a mud and play. That's what muds are for. There are a few focused threads that are great for us as contributors and readers of this forum to relax in. Such as that word association one, and the occasional "continued story" thread.

But socks? Hello? Do you not understand how ridiculous that is? Would you submit a poll about your favorite socks to your high school yearbook? To the daily newspaper in your town?

This is OUR daily newspaper. We love our text-based comic strips, sure. But those comics should only take up 1 or 2 pages within a 50 page paper. At the present time, it is not. At the present time, when I type www.topmudsites.com into the URL buffer and hit enter, the home page shows me an index of current threads. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH MUDS.

This isn't topComicsites.com. It is topmudsites. If you have nothing to contribute or no interest in reading about the muds, then find another forum to play in.

To wrap this all up - KaVir, I hope you don't put me in the same category as some of the folks here of late. I can see now why you took such a vehement stand, though I disagree with the methods. I apologize for the past, and agree with you on the present.

-Formerly known as Baglady

[Shao_Long]

again and again and I ask you again...

Point me to at least one post that wasnt about muds or stuff ? (yes,socks,I saw it,thanks,anything else in three days ? or in a week ?)
Everyone's quiet ?
Then why by the hell you keep flaming and flaming and flaming some more ?
Cant stop ?
Guys,I think you're REALLY wrong here..

[LikitaRenn]

i would sumbit a socks poll to my newspaper... hehe, as a matter of fact, that's a good idea!

-likita