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Old 04-27-2002, 01:59 AM   #1
Zerop
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blah im bored so im making polls~!
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:54 AM   #2
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One would generally think of vampires being a class rather than a race.

A boogyman race\class? (if that's wrong, sorry, already forgot the poll answers) um, sure, why not? Can't be bad.

The other answers I'll assume are silliness, you can't have vampires, vamps as race, vamps as class, and no vampires all together
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Old 04-27-2002, 12:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Wenlin @ April 27 2002,03:54 am)
One would generally think of vampires being a class rather than a race.
Hey there...

Actually, in World of Darkness, I vampires are actually viewed as a race, like werewolves, fae, humans, ghouls, etc. It's possibly not done that way in the rest of the RPGs, however. In WoD, once a human is Embraced to become a vampire, they are no longer a human and actually have to fight to retain what little humanity they do have left.

Even from what I remember in AD&D, class represents things like thief, mage, ranger, fighter/warrior, etc. Race meant human, half-elf, dwarf, elf, orc, troll, etc. Class would seem to represent ways of life or even type of occupation to me, whereas race covers what a character is biologically. I wouldn't say that being a vampire is an occupation.

But this is just my 2 cents worth and just my opinion.
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:00 PM   #4
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Ah, this debate again The definition really depends on the theme of your mud. In your typical fantasy mud, I would argue that "vampire" is neither a class nor a race - because becoming a vampire doesn't usually make you forget how to fight or cast spells (ie, class), or make a giant shrink or a fairy lose it's wings and grow (ie, race). In this sort of setting, "vampire" works better as a separate flag, or even another category completely (perhaps "mortal", "vampire", "werewolf", "lich", etc - assuming you can only be one of those).

However "class" doesn't always mean "profession", but it instead (in the context of a mud) refers to a categorisation which grants certain powers, skills and/or abilities. Therefore in a White Wolf mud I would consider "vampire" to be a class, as I would "werewolf", "mage", "mummy", and so on. A "mortal" would not really be a class in its own right, but a hedge magician could be considered as such.

In some themes, you cannot BECOME a vampire - it is quite literally a predatory race which co-exists with humans. As such, referring to it as a "race" would be perfectly fitting. In other themes, humans are the only race which can become vampires (in some cases, humans ARE the only race, except for vampires). Once again, in this sort of scenario I would consider a vampire to be a race in its own right.
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:56 PM   #5
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ok, this is just my opinion..totally ignore it if you want.

To me, vampires, have to be a class. If its a race, it would just be a vampire. Not a human vampire, or a elven vampire. It would just be a vampire. A vampire HAS to have a race or it would be a nothing.

Which leads to an idea of mine...in the stories and myths, when vampires bite another person, they are slowly turned into a vampire. Wouldnt it be an interesting idea to impliment that into a mud of some sort? I know there would be many flaws to work out..but i think it would be a neat idea...
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Old 04-27-2002, 09:58 PM   #6
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To me, vampires, have to be a class.
Scenario: Typical fantasy mud.

Bubba has been trained in combat since he was old enough to hold a sword.  His father was a weaponmaster, and Bubba is even better - he's a level 30 warrior who has specialised in swords.

Boffo has lived his (very long) life studying arcane lore in the Great University.  He is a level 20 mage who has specialised in scrolls.

Biffo has grown up on a farm, growing turnips.  He's not very bright, but he's honest and hardworking, so he gets by.  He's a level 2 farmer.

They all become vampires.  Do they become level 1 vampires, or retain their previous level?  If they all become level 1, then that means Biffo and Boffo are now just as good with swords as Bubba.  If they retain their previous level, then Bubba now has greater magical powers than Boffo.  The only logical solution is to say that they dual-class, which means that Bubba will no longer advance in his fighting skills as quickly as he did (even though that's the only thing he's interested in) and Boffo will suddenly start getting skilled at combat (even though he has no interest in it).

I agree that in some situations, it can make sense for "vampire" to be a class, but in many situations (such as when there is already a different concept of "class") it doesn't.

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If its a race, it would just be a vampire.  Not a human vampire, or a elven vampire.  It would just be a vampire.
So when I turn an elf into a vampire, it's ears become round?  When I turn a giant into a vampire, it shrinks?  When I turn an orc into a vampire, it's skin changes colour and it's snout turns into a nose?

Or are you saying that only a human should be able to become a vampire?

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A vampire HAS to have a race or it would be a nothing.
It can either be a race in it's own right (eg the "truebloods" in Blade), or a disease or parasite which can afflict one or more races.

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Which leads to an idea of mine...in the stories and myths, when vampires bite another person, they are slowly turned into a vampire.  Wouldnt it be an interesting idea to impliment that into a mud of some sort?
The whole "biting another player turns them into a vampire" thing has been done many times before, and is available on at least two stock codebases.  I've not seen the "over time" idea implemented, but it wouldn't require much extra effort.
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Old 04-27-2002, 10:05 PM   #7
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I agree with Kavir, it really depends on the theme of your mud.

On Anywhere but Home vampirism and lycanthropy are diseases. One contracts either through saliva/blood contamination. For the theme of my mud, medieval fantasy, this makes the most sense.

However, I do believe that vampires as a class is a rather odd choice for any theme. Lets see, i can train to become a priest, a warrior, or a vampire??? Just a little odd imho.
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Old 04-27-2002, 10:18 PM   #8
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However, I do believe that vampires as a class is a rather odd choice for any theme. Lets see, i can train to become a priest, a warrior, or a vampire???
Imagine a "classless" mud, in which anyone can learn any natural skill (which could include magic, if such is possible within your theme). Imagine that you then add things like "vampire", "werewolf", "lich", and so on - each of which are mutually exclusive, but which grant access to a whole range of supernatural powers which can be developed and trained up. Would it not be unreasonable to refer to those categorisations as "classes"?

As I said previously, it really depends on what approach you're using. There isn't a universal "right answer" - it's completely dependent on the theme of your mud.
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Old 04-27-2002, 10:52 PM   #9
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in Wolrd of Darkness Vampires are not a race, it is the gift or curse of caine. in ad&d vampires are not race, its a curse.
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Old 04-28-2002, 12:27 AM   #10
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My point was well said by someone else, you have to be a human vampire, or an elven vampire, but you can't just be a vampire. Now, if on a race selections screen you see:

Avalible races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Vampire, Werewolf

Perhaps the Vamp and Werewolf have already been explained to being restriced to ONLY HUMAN or whatnot, then that would make it a valid race.

Perhaps after you pick Vamp or Were, you can pick a sub-class of human, elf, dwarf, etc.

About the curse thing in AD&D, I've never done and D&Ding, but wouldn't being a vampire have a substantual effect on the way your character goes about doing things? The Human warrior that is now a vampire cannot eat 10 pounds of wonderbread™, drink 5 gallons of water, and push the wheel of pain all day. He'd much rather slay a 100 pound man, drink 5 gallons of blood, and smite people with his vampireness.

Of course, he is still a warrior, so vampire could possibly be a sub-class. Are you a spellcasting human vamp? or are you a tough hard-hitting dwarf vamp?

Both come into play, and as shown by the poll, it is evenly split.  
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Old 04-28-2002, 01:19 AM   #11
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For some odd reason..I knew my little post was going to get chewed left and right..
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Old 04-28-2002, 10:07 PM   #12
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Wenlin wrote:
My point was well said by someone else, you have to be a human vampire, or an elven vampire, but you can't just be a vampire.
And as I've said twice before, that depends entirely on the theme.  I've read a huge number of vampire stories, and seen a great deal of vampire movies, and the amount of variation is significant.  In some stories, vampires are a race completely separate from humans - you can't even *become* one, you're either born one, or you're not.

There is no universal "right" or "wrong", because vampires are fictitious, and their definition varies from story to story.  If you want to talk about AD&D vampires, then I'd say that they are neither race nor class.  But unless you're talking about specific definitions, you cannot make sweeping generalisations.
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Old 04-29-2002, 03:21 PM   #13
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lol, i think that vamp should be a race. i mean, i have an elven vamp and all, but i think it should be that vamp is the race instead of the class... i mean, why can't vampires be mages and warriors? like, instead of elf, or orc, vampires could have their own characteristics, and then no one would have to worry about if giants shrink or elves' ears become rounded. they'd be.... humanOID... like in sci-fi books! (don't mind me, i read too much sci-fi) anyways, just my op....

-likita
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Old 04-29-2002, 05:51 PM   #14
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Like the god old AD&D books say, vampirism should be a curse. The best way to solve this is to let the players have the charactaristics of their old character, however, force them to play during night time only. (or instantly during the day) Also make them hungry for blood and more powerfull after they just had a good meal of blood. (saving up blood in containers doesnt count.) Also be sure to add some more nasty side effects, preferably maintaining a good strong tie to the AD&D vampires. After all, AD&D has been played long and still is quite popular.
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Old 04-29-2002, 06:07 PM   #15
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Not all muds are based on AD&D, you know.
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Old 04-29-2002, 06:32 PM   #16
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Still tho, AD&D has good system for dealing with vampirism and all kinds of other assorted stuff like lycantrophy. It doesnt have to be based on AD&D, it'll just need to nick a few ideas from it
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