[Eagleon]

Shut up everyone, we're all butchers!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The United States of America is not perfect. But its less imperfect than anywhere in this great big world.

Love it or loathe it, but thats a fact.


-VT, Proud to be an infidel.

[CSmith_Fan]

Out of respect for Snoozer and his staff..I've posted my reply over in


Flames

[Delerak]

To the flames thread then!

Delerak trots away from this thread.

[the_logos]

Delerak wrote:

Originally Posted by I'll tell you, if I could I would definitely choose to live in Europe besides USA.  Too much blood spilt here for stupid beliefs for my taste.

Delerak wrote:

Originally Posted by I see we're going to numbers now.   And I am not necessarily speaking the wars only held in american lands.  Any war america has participated in has been horrific.  Compared to Europes.  And Lanthum, Europe is a continent not a country.  I am comparing every country in Europe from the 1700s to America up to today,

So now you've gone from comparing the blood spilt for 'stupid beliefs' in Europe and the US to the blood spilt anywhere in the world by America since 1776 with the blood spilt by any single European country since 1776. Nice little series of revisions you've made there, subsequent to being demonstrated as clueless over and over.

Fine. Germany and Russia. Both have spilled WAY more since 1776 than America ever has. How many times do people have to say this to you: 10s of millions killed by Germany alone in WWII. 20-60 million killed by Stalin.

The US doesn't even come close, and frankly, putting the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and don't forget Tokyo in which American B52s killed almost as many people with conventional bombs) in the same category as Hitler's aggression is just dumb. Hitler's war was pure, naked aggression. The American attack on Japan happened only after Japan attacked America with no good reason.

Intellectual dishonesty to support your political position is just sad. America sucks in many, many ways. But there can be no doubt that the blood spilled in America (which was your original argument despite your attempts to wriggle out of it) pales in comparison to Europe, which was essentially one big battleground for 2000 years, and that the blood spilled by America since 1776 pales in comparison to both Europe as a whole and some individual European countries.

--matt
(I chose not to move my post because Tavern of the Blue Hand is explicitly for discussion of whatever you want. )

[CSmith_Fan]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Sep. 13 2003,14:13) (and don't forget Tokyo in which American B52s killed almost as many people with conventional bombs)

Matt,

Dont hit me with the troll bat but......


I think you meant B-25s...52 didnt come until after 1946.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (CSmith_Fan @ Sep. 13 2003,14:32) I think you meant B-25s...52 didnt come until after 1946.

Yes, my apologies. They were described as darkening the sky over Tokyo so many of them were employed on the bombing runs. Almost as scary as a A-bomb in those kinds of numbers.

--matt

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by (Lanthum @ Sep. 12 2003,03:25) Delerak, would it make sense to compare how a 10 year old acts to that of a 40 year old? Under most circumstances, no. One should be more mature than the other ... so why would you EVEN BEGIN to try and compare what wars all the European countries have been in during the last 300 years, to those the US has been in? Of coarse Europe should have been in less than the US. Europe, being the older country, should be more mature, and having seen what wars can do (lets not bring up WWII anymore), should therefore try to stay out of as many wars as they can.

So just because America is a young country it is forgiven for all the murders it commited in Vietnam, and all the other wars it's had. Take a look at Germanys history. They never had wars that America has had, aside from the world wars, and Germany is a less-civilized country and much older. If anything the younger a country the less war it should wage, if you think just because America is young then it is okay for it to wage war for it's belief's then you are just a naive patriot.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by (Lanthum @ Sep. 12 2003,03:25) Originally Posted by I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics. It shows! Let's face it, the US government isn't perfect and certainly has done their share of horrible acts. But, I tend to believe that they are ususally done with the best (or near best) of intentions. I sure don't see any other countries out there trying to make the world a safer place for everyone. Let's all remember how Hitler became so popular, and that Europe and Russia both had several chances to stop him years before he became so powerful! As for the original thread, I agree with CSmith_Fan. This is probably a hoax ... but even if it's not, only the guilty will fret! If you don't have anything to hide, don't worry about it. Yes it sucks that anyone COULD do that ... but there really isn't anything we can do if they do it. Lanthum

It seems they are seeking for the best intentions, but take a long look at this: If America continues getting involved in wars, no matter what your reason is (freedom, equality, justice, all those other words they use) then sooner or later, most likely later, America will fall like any other empire in the history of the world. Rome tried to do what America is doing, and it is in ruins. Alexander the Great and his father the king of Macedonia, both crumbled because of their wars. If you agree with america's wars then you are just another person who will go down with the country. It is inevitable if it continues.

[Stilton]

JilesDM, replying to (Delerak?):

Originally Posted by I don't know where you seem to have been living these past 50 years, but apparently it wasn't on earth. This past war in Iraq was the first war of aggression waged by the US. That's right. A big fat 1.

Delerak has been excreting a huge amount of fertilizer into this thread, but the above shows a pretty ignorant view of history.

How about the Spanish-American war, and our other dealings in the Phillipines, just for starters? (Since there's such a blatant counterexample to your claim available, I won't for now argue about Vietnam or other recent conflicts)

Grenada was also not exactly storming our beaches when they were invaded by the US. And that's even before we start discussing the arguably non-invasion actions like overthrowing the pre-Shah government of Iran. Remember that if you dismiss an action like the US installation of the Shah as not an act of war, to be fair you'll then have to count the US invasion of Afganistan as an aggressive war on the US's part.

America has had a pretty respectable record in international affairs until recently (looking at both motives going in and how a defeated enemy is treated), but claiming that the record has been perfect is just as ignorant as Delerak's spew.

Stilton

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 13 2003,14:59) So just because America is a young country it is forgiven for all the murders it commited in Vietnam, and all the other wars it's had.  Take a look at Germanys history.  They never had wars that America has had, aside from the world wars, and Germany is a less-civilized country and much older.

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying, "Well, I'm the best basketball player in the world if you don't count all the pros, semi-pros, and college players."

Yes, I count the world wars. They were wars of naked aggression by Germany and they -utterly- dwarf anything America has ever started. Completely and without comparison. You're just as bad as a flag-waving patriot in that you have no interest in the truth, just your own propaganda.

Further, what's this nonsense about Germany being older? Germany was founded well after America was. At the beginning of the 19th century, what is now known as Germany was a huge piecemeal quilt of hundreds of little nation-states. It wasn't until 1871 that Germany became a nation-state, under the influence of Bismarck and the dominion of the Prussian King. Yes, there were people there before the Germany became a nation-state but then, there were people in the US long before it became a nation-state as well.

Sheesh, I thought you said you were a history major. This is all basic European history.

--matt

[Delerak]

Doesn't matter if Germany wasn't a nation, it's been around longer then America, historical writings date back millenias for it, so we can have a better understanding, America doesn't have that, it only has the Native Americans, and they don't know much about their past, and they most definitely do not date nearly as far back as Germany does. Technically, no, Germany wasn't recognized as a country, but it is still far older then America, in the sense that when Rome was running the world, Germany (germania) was populated and had a fairly stable peoples, who have a history, even if they were barbaric in nature.

Now you say that the world wars were worse then anything America started. America unfortunately doesn't work like Germany did, where Germany makes it obvious where they stand. America will just get involved and instead makes war under the guise of television, the media, and then tries to justify it with noble words. If you ask me, I would rather know what a war is being fought for, rather then just sit and be in the dark about anything that America does and acts on. You? I don't know what you'd rather have, maybe you enjoy your ignorant society where you go about your simple lives with no knowledge as to what is happening, except your TV which is definitely not going to give you the truth. I'm still not understanding what we are debating now, I thought it was whether America had bleed more people then Euro-countries. Guess it doesn't matter anymore and we are just trying to get the better of each other?

-Delerak

[Tavish]

Originally Posted by  I'm still not understanding what we are debating now, I thought it was whether America had bleed more people then Euro-countries.

I'm not sure you ever really understood what was being debated, which is quite sad considering you began it.  You continue to try and assert that America is more warlike than these other countries without providing any type of reasoning behind it other than your opinion.  Everytime you try and prove this your "facts" are either shot down or you try to change what the debate is.
If you want to claim that modern day America is more aggresive than other nations then by all means do that, you will at least have a leg to stand on there.  If you don't like modern day America's war tactics then thats great, I would agree with you.  But when try and claim that the US historically is more warlike you are completely off base.
If this is what you actually want to debate sit down, do abit of research, and then attempt to back this claim up with some sort of facts that actually relate to the topic.

[JilesDM]

Stilton:

Originally Posted by America has had a pretty respectable record in international affairs until recently (looking at both motives going in and how a defeated enemy is treated), but claiming that the record has been perfect is just as ignorant as Delerak's spew.

I suggest you look up the definition of war of aggression before spouting off. A state is considered to have commited a war of aggression if it a) initiates aggressions in a manner which is in contravention to the UN charter, and b) is the first state to do so in the conflict in question. None of your examples meets both criteria. I personally consider this past war against Iraq to be a war of aggression, but even that is probably technically incorrect, as a state of war had already existed between the US and Iraq since 1990.

[Lanthum]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 14 2003,22:53) Doesn't matter if Germany wasn't a nation, it's been around longer then America, historical writings date back millenias for it, so we can have a better understanding ...

Wow, you just keep putting that big ole foot of yours in your mouth don't you Delerak.  There are more than a few people on this board who realize you need to change the debate just so you aren't wrong.

You don't want to debate each countries bloodshed when they were each respectively new countries because it doesn't make sense to you - more likely it's because you would see just how bloody MOST other countries were when they were young - either within their own borders or outside.  You don't want to debate the World Wars - why, who knows but most likely again because it blows your whole theory away that the US has historically spilled more blood.  You say Germany is older than the US because you don't have much history of North America before the European patriots came over and destroyed it - and yet you don't want to remember all the war the germanic tribes waged.

Well, for those of us out here that aren't buying into your "America has historically spilled more blood in the last 300 years" propaganda, can you decide just exactly what it is you ARE trying to debate!  It's getting very hard to follow your weak###, thin debate!

OHHHH!  And I just Loooove this:

Originally Posted by historical writings date back millenias ... America doesn't have that, it only has the Native Americans, and they don't know much about their past, and they most definitely do not date nearly as far back as Germany does ... Germany is still far older then America ... Germany (germania) was populated and had a fairly stable peoples, who have a history, even if they were barbaric in nature.

Now I'm no history major ... that's your cup of tea, but isn't the current accepted theory for Native Americans that they migrated over the Bering Land Bridge some 25-30,000 years ago?  And, after migrating south began to establish tribes in what is now called The United States area around 20,000 years ago?  Now just how old are those supposedly stable germanic tribes?  So if you are going to consider those Germanic tribes, it would seem to me you would have to consider the Native American tribes as well.

Oh, and please don't be so stupid as to say that Native Americans don't know much about their past just because you don't know it.  I know plenty about my ancestors.  We just tend to be closed off and not too friendly with outside prying people.  But it is amazing what you can find in written records in some tribal councils and colleges.

Originally Posted by You? I don't know what you'd rather have, maybe you enjoy your ignorant society where you go about your simple lives with no knowledge as to what is happening, except your TV which is definitely not going to give you the truth.

One last thing, you keep insinuating that most Americans and only Americans believe their TV's too much!  Man, you are so out of touch.  Every country, from Japan with far more Ads per person than the US, to Iraq and Saddam's propaganda on TV, to Hitler and his burning Books and his Hitler Youth Clubs ... every country and every people has it's own propaganda!  It's money man!  It makes the world go round.  It's not just the US ... your stupid to think so!  I'll quote another good Tool song:

"All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fat### dirty
Dollar"

Here, there, anywhere.  It's all media hype, businesses vying for your dollar, people trying to sell something, governments trying to bolster their ratings.  It's not only in the US.

[John]

The Germans had plenty of wars, they were constantly battling Rome. Or does that not get included anymore, whereas the fact that Germany has had a long history (with bloodshed throughout it) does count?

It seems your excluding every fact that doesn't support your case. Well yeah, when you ignore facts left, right and center it tends to become difficult to show you why your wrong.

[CSmith_Fan]

Originally Posted by (JilesDM @ Sep. 15 2003,02:45) I suggest you look up the definition of war of aggression before spouting off.  A state is considered to have commited a war of aggression if it a)