[visko]

TCPA is an organization of very large companies in the computing industry, including Microsoft, Intel, AMD, IBM, VIA, SiS, and many others, who have banded together to develop hardware and software, legislation and government endorsement, to spying on your computer at all levels.

They will have full access to any hardware and software, files and information you keep on your computer, and they will have full authority using their devices to outlaw, change, or delete anything you have on your computer.

Got an ass or any freedom whatsoever?  Start kissing it goodbye; it'll be gone within 3 years if these guys get their way.  Go to the website I posted as the name of this thread.  Read the faq.  Be very afraid, and sign up to fight this.

-Visko

PS:  This could mean the end of MUDs.

[Eagleon]

If this is passed as standard, no one would use a computer. It doesn't matter how big the companies that are peeping in your box are, businessmen and the general public do NOT like having their privacy violated. This is a bad idea even for the people who want it. You need a customer base to function.

Dumbass egocentric fools. They'll set us all back just for more control, and kill themselves in the process.

[Threshold]

Thanks for the info. I hope more people learn about this kind of stuff going on.

[Delerak]

I think people are over-exaggerating on TCPA, but I also think that it is bull****, considering all these huge companies would come together to stop piracy, and try to police the internet. The internet is a beast that cannot be tamed, try as they might, in the end they will just get biten in the arm, and they will bleed to death by the animal that they themselves created.

[Rafnir]

Legalized internet fascism, hmm, does this seem like a good thing to me... hold on, ive got my answer in my coat! *reaches inside his coat and pulls out his middle finger*

The TCPA is wrong and against the freedom of the individual, how could anyone find this the appropriate response to fear?

Times like these make me glad I'm a "Eurobitch"

TCPA, DMCA, PATRIOT, Homeland Security, Echelon project...

Yup, home of the free indeed... Have fun over there

[Orion Elder]

Hrm? What does that have to do with anything, Ingham? This affects EVERYONE who uses a computer. Everywhere. Many software creators and hardware creators are now including ways to force this onto people (which, essentially, is the main reason people are railing against it so hard). Where you live is of no consequence.

When the major BIOS suppliers incorporate required compliance... when the 'fritz' chip comes into wide-scale usage... when it makes it into motherboards, and the like... when MicroSoft and the others insert mandatory use of those capabilities into their products so that without it you can't use their software, see how much denial and being anti-American helps you.

I'd venture to say not much. But, to each their own.

[Mason]

Palladium and the like are nothing new.  M$ has been working on it for a while - though they did just change the name  to 'Next-Generation Secure Computing Base' because of all the bad press it has been receiving.

Read this slashdot article for more information about Palladium.  Or browse through other Slashdot articles for additional reading.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by see how much denial and being anti-American helps you

I know Bush is fond of saying "if you're not with us, you're against us", but don't you think it's just a bit extreme to accuse someone of being "anti-American" simply on the basis that they're not actually American?

[Lotius]

What does that have to do with anything? Ingham's statement was oozing smug anti-Americanism. Doesn't that make him anti-American?

Lot

Originally Posted by (Lotius @ May 12 2003,08:52) What does that have to do with anything? Ingham's statement was oozing smug anti-Americanism. Doesn't that make him anti-American? Lot

I love it when people call me anti-something simply because I'm right. I don't troll on these forums, I leave that for IRC. (real time responses are much more fun and people are quicker to anger in a real time chat situation) However, it is ironic that the US, the country which has been the (self proclaimed) land of freedom, oppurtunity and equality, is now instituting laws and regulations against all it supposedly stands for. They barge over to Iraq to liberate oppresed people while their own country slowly becomes an economic dictatorship, a Plutocracy. Besides, in regard to this subject, was in not Thomas Jefferson who said the following:

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country” Thomas Jefferson

That said, yes, I'm against the US goverment. Strongly. However, not against the US people.

[Delerak]

I'll tell you, if I could I would definitely choose to live in Europe besides USA. Too much blood spilt here for stupid beliefs for my taste.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by (Lotius @ May 12 2003,05:52) What does that have to do with anything? Ingham's statement was oozing smug anti-Americanism. Doesn't that make him anti-American? Lot

Originally Posted by (Ingham @ May 12 2003,06:43) “I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country” Thomas Jefferson That said, yes, I'm against the US goverment. Strongly. However, not against the US people.

You're getting your words mixed up with propaganda, Lot.  

What Ingham is doing is criticizing Amerian™ policy, not America itself. As his quote above shows, he is pointing out what Thomas Jefferson, an original patriot, might say about the situation today.

And Delerak, you should check out European history... centuries of bloody warfare.

- Ryan

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 10 2003,21:30) I'll tell you, if I could I would definitely choose to live in Europe besides USA.  Too much blood spilt here for stupid beliefs for my taste.

That's quite a baffling comment. Very little blood has been committed on American soil relative to the amount spilled on European soil and the reasons were generally just as stupid.

--matt

[Delerak]

Depends on which part of Europe. Switzerland hasn't been involved in a war for over 600 years if I recall correctly. And the only wars in europe that was spilled due to stupid beliefs would be the world wars, and world war I had a purpose, world domination. Two was just hitler's insanity unleashed in Nazism. Other then that, europe is far cleaner then America, in the sense that it is much older, and in comparison to America which has only been around for the past three centuries, simply pales in the major problems that america has faced, and now faces.

-Delerak

[Eagleon]

Personally, I could care less about the number of wars a nation has participated in or created. What I look at is what the people who live under the government think of those wars. And a lot of Americans would love to see the mid-east nuked into oblivion.

I hear Norway is nice this time of year.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by (Eagleon @ Sep. 11 2003,13:23) And a lot of Americans would love to see the mid-east nuked into oblivion.

Thats because America's population is one of the worst educated in the First World. Many people here believe the media when they frame stories to make it appear that islam is fundamentally opposed to western ideals. At the same time, they're angry (probably rightfully so) that such a huge portion of our budget is being spent on "the middle-east" (it actually goes to us-based arms dealers and other multi-national corporations).

Of course, this trend will only get worse now that Bush has asked for an additional 87 Billion dollars which, for comparison, is equal to one fifth of the budget of all domestic deptartments.

I think its all an elaborate plan to roll back the last remnants of the New Deal, but that makes me sound paranoid.

- Ryan

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 11 2003,12:56) And the only wars in europe that was spilled due to stupid beliefs would be the world wars, and world war I had a purpose, world domination. Two was just hitler's insanity unleashed in Nazism. Other then that, europe is far cleaner then America, in the sense that it is much older, and in comparison to America which has only been around for the past three centuries, simply pales in the major problems that america has faced, and now faces.

You aren't much of a student of history, are you?

Honestly, do a tiny little bit of research. For over a thousand years Europe was nothing but one bloody war after another. Ironically, the only thing that managed to keep Europe at peace for more than a handful of years was the Cold War.

Here is a nice little link to get you started down the road of knowledge: http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html

If you think the US is out of control right now, fine. But your historical revisionism is absurd.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 11 2003,12:56) Depends on which part of Europe.  Switzerland hasn't been involved in a war for over 600 years if I recall correctly.  And the only wars in europe that was spilled due to stupid beliefs would be the world wars, and world war I had a purpose, world domination.  Two was just hitler's insanity unleashed in Nazism.  Other then that, europe is far cleaner then America, in the sense that it is much older, and in comparison to America which has only been around for the past three centuries, simply pales in the major problems that america has faced, and now faces. -Delerak

You are truly clueless.

Europe was one big f-ing bloodbath from oh, about 500 BC until 1945. In no particular order: Carthaginian invaders, Turkish invaders, Greeks slaughtering each other, Romans making war on half of Europe, Vandals and Goths making war on Rome, Charlemagne, Moorish invaders, Mongol hordes, the First and Second Wars of Succcession, Viking raids, wars between Russia and Norway, the Hundred Years war, the interminable Balkan wars, the Napoleonic wars, the French Revolution, the Dynastic wars in England, the wars between England and the Scots, the Danish Civil War, the various Frankish civil wars, the Danish-Swedish war, the Livonian War, the War of the Spanish Succession, and on and on and on and on and on. And that leaves out WWI and WWII, both fought for exceedingly stupid reasons.

--matt

[Eagleon]

Umm... Maybe this doesn't make any difference, but 500 BC? Not counting native history (which I admittably don't know much about), America is a much younger country than that. Also, the wars you listed involved many nations, some now dead. The US grew very quickly compared to other nations, but it's not fair to compare an entire continent's timeline back to a point where the total time to the present is nearly eight times as long as the age of the US, now is it?

(Bleh, forgive me if it's not eight times, my math skills are not great.)

[Delerak]

I thought I was stating that as common sense already Eagleon, thank you for clarifying to those here who didn't realize I meant comparison from when America was founded and not the entire history of Europe! Haha. That actually made me laugh. I am majoring in history and of course Europe has more blood spilt in all. But since 1776, Europes wars compared to America's are nothing, #### Britain gave up. Threshold take a look at that timeline of yours and compare each war from when america was founded (one country) to all of the wars in Europe. You will notice that America's were far bloodier and far stupider. At least the countries in Europe were fighting to further their own territory, america claims to fight for freedom, and equality or something like that, I don't even know why we wen't to Iraw now, hah, I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics. Nice of the_logos and Threshhold to educate us though, they seem to be packed full of knowledge.

-Delerak

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by (malaclypse @ Sep. 11 2003,16:43) Thats because America's population is one of the worst educated in the First World. Many people here believe the media when they frame stories to make it appear that islam is fundamentally opposed to western ideals. At the same time, they're angry (probably rightfully so) that such a huge portion of our budget is being spent on "the middle-east" (it actually goes to us-based arms dealers and other multi-national corporations). Of course, this trend will only get worse now that Bush has asked for an additional 87 Billion dollars which, for comparison, is equal to one fifth of the budget of all domestic deptartments. I think its all an elaborate plan to roll back the last remnants of the New Deal, but that makes me sound paranoid. - Ryan

Even though I am american born I have to agree with that entire post, and I am paranoid and I bet it will go back to the new deal.

[CSmith_Fan]

Just got to put 2 cents in for a moment....

Before posting any more "I hate the US government" type posts remeber a few things....

1. The US still allows basic freedoms people (inlcuding ALOT here) take for granted.
2. Stupid Euro wars? I can name some for starters...Crusades (all four),  Bosnia, Russian expansionisnm (Warsaw Pact? Please..more like Russian "We own you" policy)
3.  Swizerland 'leaned' toward the German National Socialists (read :Nazis) in WW2..besides that..since the guards that are posted at the Vatican are members of the Swiss Guard, and the Vatican is the Holy HQ for Catholocism, which Catholic would want to **** of the pope? Especially since early kings could be excommunicated so easily...
4. the US' education : blame liberals and politics for that one.

5.

Originally Posted by Many people here believe the media when they frame stories to make it appear that islam is fundamentally opposed to western ideals

: Actually..it is..since Christianity comprises a vast majority of the populace of the West, Isalm is opposed to it..just like Christians are opposed to Buddists, and Buddists are opposed to Judeoism, etc..it's when the so-called *experts* (both lliberla and consertive) try to mingle politics with religion that you get the whole anti-Islam sentiment. "Islam is un-american..they dont believe in God"..wich they do..Allah is arabic for 'god" just like Got is german for 'god'..but we dont see DC going after germans because of that do we?

6.

Originally Posted by Of course, this trend will only get worse now that Bush has asked for an additional 87 Billion dollars which, for comparison, is equal to one fifth of the budget of all domestic deptartments

: Probably because democrat presidents, and congressmen have been slashing the military buget every chance they get. Of course, they (liberal) point to Iraq and scream about Bush dragging us into war and as always forget to sue the school they graduated from for robbing them of the education they so richly deserved..that meaning..Hrm..lets look at US hitsory real quck shall we?
1. WW1 - Woodrow Wilson - Democrat
2. WW2 - FDR - Democrat/ Harry S Truman - Deomocrat (note : Truman is the ONLY world leader to nuke another counrty in war 2x)
3. Korean War - Truman -Democrat
4. Vietnam War - Kennedy - Democrat

Hrm..4 major wars and all led by liberals. Yes, the first Gulf War was initiated by Bush Sr. but that's ONE so called *war* (which cant really be called one because it lasted what? 1000hrs? ####! I've spent more time MUDding this year than that) Of course there are smaller conflicts..Gernada...Panama..etc..but no huge scale wars like those. Bush bad? Personally I think *both* sides of the political arena have been bad for this country for the longest time. Maybe it's time we had someone who was an Independant to become president, who wasnt a lawyer and loves America enough to clean house..of course if that happens, then Dark Hope will be the #1 MUD here on TMS.

As for the orginal *topic* of this  thread, I'm reminded of the general statement that most heavy metal bands from 1970-2004 have stated about people killing others/themselves because of *oooh-ooooh-hidden-messages*...to paraphrase..why kill the people who make us money?
 I say it's just some hoax article that some kid somewhere wrote and is laughing his butt off. Kind of like when  Penn and Teller got 1000s of pro-enviromentalists to sign a petition to band dyhydrogen monoxide...also known as water.

Ok..back to your regular flamming of each other...

..oops! as a quick side note..glad to *finally* see some activity here at TMS on the boards..been a while since there was an actual page turner of  a thread here.

[Lanthum]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 11 2003,22:42) I meant comparison from when America was founded and  not the entire history of Europe!  ...  I am majoring in history and of course Europe has more blood spilt in all.  But since 1776, Europes wars compared to America's are nothing,  Threshold take a look at that timeline of yours and compare each war from when america was founded (one country) to all of the wars in Europe.  You will notice that America's were far bloodier and far stupider.  At least the countries in Europe were fighting to further their own territory, america claims to fight for freedom, and equality or something like that, I don't even know why we wen't to Iraw now

Wow ... some people amaze me!  I'll try not to go off on anyone, but this thread just blows my mind!  

Delerak, would it make sense to compare how a 10 year old acts to that of a 40 year old?  Under most circumstances, no.  One should be more mature than the other ... so why would you EVEN BEGIN to try and compare what wars all the European countries have been in during the last 300 years, to those the US has been in?  Of coarse Europe should have been in less than the US.  Europe, being the older country, should be more mature, and having seen what wars can do (lets not bring up WWII anymore), should therefore try to stay out of as many wars as they can.

And no wonder you speak words that make it seem you think Europe is the be-all-end-all.  You think "fighting to further their own territory" is more worthwhile than fighting to liberate oppressed people, and to try and secure many countries futures from fascists and extremists!

Originally Posted by I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics.

It shows!  Let's face it, the US government isn't perfect and certainly has done their share of horrible acts.  But, I tend to believe that they are ususally done with the best (or near best) of intentions.  I sure don't see any other countries out there trying to make the world a safer place for everyone.  Let's all remember how Hitler became so popular, and that Europe and Russia both had several chances to stop him years before he became so powerful!

As for the original thread, I agree with CSmith_Fan.  This is probably a hoax ... but even if it's not, only the guilty will fret!  If you don't have anything to hide, don't worry about it.  Yes it sucks that anyone COULD do that ... but there really isn't anything we can do if they do it.

Lanthum

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 11 2003,23:42) I thought I was stating that as common sense already Eagleon, thank you for clarifying to those here who didn't realize I meant comparison from when America was founded and  not the entire history of Europe!  Haha.  That actually made me laugh.  I am majoring in history and of course Europe has more blood spilt in all.  But since 1776, Europes wars compared to America's are nothing, #### Britain gave up.  Threshold take a look at that timeline of yours and compare each war from when america was founded (one country) to all of the wars in Europe.  You will notice that America's were far bloodier and far stupider.  At least the countries in Europe were fighting to further their own territory, america claims to fight for freedom, and equality or something like that, I don't even know why we wen't to Iraw now, hah, I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics.  Nice of the_logos and Threshhold to educate us though,  they seem to be packed full of knowledge. -Delerak

So then, if territorial ambition is not a stupid reason for war in your opinion (one of the stupidest and most juvenile reasons in mine) where is all this blood that's been spilled on American soil since its founding for stupid reasons? Do you think the Civil War was stupid? Cause that's the only significant bloodletting caused by war that's happened on American soil since it was founded.

Americas wars were -not- bloodier, by a long shot. About half a million people died in the Civil War. (Of course, if you don't think a war about territorial ambition is stupid then it's hard to call this a stupid war given that the war was all about maintaining the territory of the US.)

- A few tens of thousand people died in the Mexican war.
- Less than 10,000 died in the War of 1812 and the Spanish American War.
- Many natives died, but 95% of that was by disease, most of which was completely unrelated to war and related simply to the presence of Europeans (go read Jared Diamond's Putlizer-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel for a fantastic discussion that includes an extensive look at this sort of thing.)

Of course, these wars were about territorial ambition which, by your (silly) definition is a good reason for war.

So where are all these deaths caused by 'silly' wars on American soil? America doesn't know what suffering is compared to Europe and that's true regardless of what historical period you choose.

6 million Jews died in WWII for VERY silly reasons that had nothing to do with territorial ambitions. That's more than Americans have -ever- lost in all wars combined, on or off American soil, "silly" or not.

And those 6 million Jews pale in comparison to the 50 MILLION that died in total in WWII. Don't want to talk about World War II? Ok, let's talk about the between 20 and 40 million+ Russians slaughtered by their own government between 1924 and 1953. (There's no consensus number there. Some historians, like Rummel, says it's as high as 61 million, while others, like Wallechinsky say it's around 20 million.) Don't like that? Ok, let's talk about the approximately 15-25 million that died in WWI.

Give me a break Delerak. You should demand a refund on your education because they're not teaching you anything. I have a LOT of problems with America, but that doesn't change facts.
--matt

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by 1. The US still allows basic freedoms people (inlcuding ALOT here) take for granted.

Do you think this is a good excuse for the US government to take away rights granted to its people in the Bill of Rights?? Have you even looked at the so-called Patriot Act?

Originally Posted by 4. the US' education : blame liberals and politics for that one.

Typically Liberals advocate better social services for the general populace at the expense of higher taxes. Conservatives typically advocate lower taxes at the expense of social services. So, now that we've cut taxes in a huge way, and also increased our military spending in a huge way, that obviously leaves much less money for our schools. And you say this is on the liberal agenda? Under Bush? Are you crazy?

One day of military operations in Iraq could pay for the entirety of the education budget cuts.

Originally Posted by Many people here believe the media when they frame stories to make it appear that islam is fundamentally opposed to western ideals

Originally Posted by : Actually..it is..since Christianity comprises a vast majority of the populace of the West, Isalm is opposed to it..just like Christians are opposed to Buddists, and Buddists are opposed to Judeoism, etc..

I rest my case...

Originally Posted by Of course, this trend will only get worse now that Bush has asked for an additional 87 Billion dollars which, for comparison, is equal to one fifth of the budget of all domestic deptartments

Originally Posted by Probably because democrat presidents, and congressmen have been slashing the military buget every chance they get.

Good, because the #### thing is bloated! Here are some numbers:

Current Military, $459B:Military Personnel $99B, Operation and Maintenance $133B, Procurement $68B, Research and Development $58B, Construction $6B, Family Housing $4B, Retired Pay $39B, DoE Nuclear Weapons $16B, 50% NASA $8B, International Security $7B, 60% Homeland Security $16B, misc. $5B Note: President Bush does not include any funds for the war on terrorism or the war on Iraq in this budget, which he expects to request later as supplemental funding.

Past Military, $345B: Veterans’ Benefits $63B; Interest on National Debt (80% estimated to be created by military spending) $282B

Human Resources, $593B: Education, Health/Human Services, HUD, Food/Nutrition programs, Labor Department, Soc. Sec. Admin.

General Government, $235B: Legislative, Justice Dept., State Dept., International Affairs, Treasury, Gov’t. Personnel, 20% interest on national debt, 50% of NASA, 20% Homeland Security

Physical Resources, $99B: Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Interior Dept., Transportation, Environmental Protection, Army Corps Engineers, NSF, FCC, 20% Homeland Security

Source: War Resisters League

- Ryan

[Delerak]

I see we're going to numbers now. And I am not necessarily speaking the wars only held in american lands. Any war america has participated in has been horrific. Compared to Europes. And Lanthum, Europe is a continent not a country. I am comparing every country in Europe from the 1700s to America up to today, America has definitely had more wars, and spilled more blood. And a dictator killng his own people (stalin) doesn't necessarily count. I am talking full-fledged wars here Logos, waged on other countries. Germany and France for example. America and Mexico, America and Vietnam. America has killed more in war than those other countries, and here are some numbers.

America's Wars Total
Military service during war 42,348,460
Battle deaths 651,008
Other deaths in service (theater)13,998
Other deaths in service (nontheater)525,256
Nonmortal woundings 1,431,290
Living war veterans 17,578,5003
Living veterans 25,038,459

And I'm not talking civilian casualties, just soldiers. Hitler killed the Jews for his belief, which started the war, his army was shredded by america, as was Japans, which can be included, how many died because of the bombs?

Hiroshima Nagasaki
Dead Dead
70,000 20,000
Wounded Wounded
130,000 50,000

.. 90% of Those wounded died within months from radiation poisoning. I think the estimate of deaths from America can't even be calculated, I would guess over 20 million, no telling though, all in the name of freedom and equality. Sure, and now in 2003 we aren't even sure if we have it. Let's go kill some more and call it War of Terror.

-Delerak

[malaclypse]

I would agree that America™ has been the most ruthlessly aggressive state in the past 50 years... but trying to prove so by comparing our history to Europes is not a particularly useful way to do so. Europe also has a bloody legacy that is thousands of years old, and don't forget that America inherited its aspirations of domination from the old continent.

This new war on terror is just the same old stuff in new packaging. Remember the cold war? Its all about establishing the rest of the world as Americas™ service sector, in the disguise of democracy and freedom. Democracy for those who agree with us, and freedom for those who can afford it.

[JilesDM]

I don't know where you seem to have been living these past 50 years, but apparently it wasn't on earth. This past war in Iraq was the first war of aggression waged by the US. That's right. A big fat 1. Korea, Vietnam, and the first gulf war were all triggered by expansion of a foreign power. Maybe you would have preferred that the US allow unchecked Russian expansion? Wondering if it would have been fun living under Mao during the "great leap forward"?

Re: Delerak: Compare both Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Russian capture of Berlin during WWII, in which they lost 300,000 soldiers. Half the total battle deaths of the US in a single battle. The total German military and civilian casualties are unknown to this day.

Or perhaps you'd like to take a gander at the figures for civilian casualties during the German offensive into Russia?

I don't like the current US administration's policies, but the level of historical revisionism that's taking place here is absolutely disgusting.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by (JilesDM @ Sep. 12 2003,19:43) I don't know where you seem to have been living these past 50 years, but apparently it wasn't on earth.  This past war in Iraq was the first war of aggression waged by the US.  That's right.  A big fat 1.

You were likely not taught about the wars that we didn't send troops to, but instead created foreign militias under ruthless men who would be sympathetic to our commercial interest, or just funded the war with weapons and money.
Here's an incomplete list: Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Angola, Panama.

Do the research, its pretty scary.

And thats not even counting all the popular revolutions against oppresive dictators that we squashed in the name of "national security". Vietnam falls under that category. The threat they posed to us is as laughable as the "threat" Iraq posed.

- Ryan