[gth]

My apologies - I posted in the wrong thread.  A "welcome" thread is the wrong place to express my feedback on this topic, so here is the correct place --
___

Just thought I'd add my voice to the list of people that would prefer TMS didn't accept money from lying thieves (refer to http://www.game.org/med/ for further information).

Personally, if I lived near you, Mike, I'd key your car and smack your kids on their way to school daily.  You're in need of some serious karma and I hope you get everything that's coming to you.  Here, have a smug smiley...

[edit: forgot the smiley]

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (gth @ May 08 2005,19:13) Personally, if I lived near you, Mike, I'd key your car and smack your kids on their way to school daily.

Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****.

I'm lodging an official complaint with Synozeer, asking that you be banned. That's so out of bounds it's not even funny.

--matt

[mudnutx]

For crying out loud, lighten up! Here's a sleeping pill and two shots of valium.

Of course he isn't going to threaten the infamous Medievia CEO or his kids. It is called humour. I thought it was quite funny.

Anyway, what is this whole business of Medthievia about? having done quite a bit of research on it, from reading old debates between Kavir and Highlander [one of the MUD's founders] to reading the comments by former staffers on MEdievia who resigned in protest at the licence usage, in a simplistic sense it boils down to:

1. What code or codebase did Medievia begin with?
2. what is their code now, having entered the beta version of their latest stage of Medievia, Medievia 5 ?
3. What is the definition of a derivative work that must still be bound by the DIKU licence even if the code becomes 100 percent modified?

I am unsure what the answer to [2] is because not being a current coder on Medievia, I have never seen their code.

The answer to [1] appears to be starting with the diku/merc codebase.

Based on [1] above and the MUD's continued derivative status, I think that Medievia probably deserves the accusations. But I can also understand TMS giving them the benefit of the doubt now that they have begun Medievia 5.

This is an attempt to be as balanced as possible on the issue. It requires some effort to do so. I have the bias that I was a builder on Medievia and they sacked me for reacting to their incompetent management of my building work.

so now I build futuristic zones for Tempus instead.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (mudnutx @ May 09 2005,02:05) Anyway, what is this whole business of Medthievia about? having done quite a bit of research on it, from reading old debates between Kavir and Highlander [one of the MUD's founders] to reading the comments by former staffers on MEdievia who resigned in protest at the licence usage, in a simplistic sense it boils down to:

You might also want to read the other threads, such as the one started by the_logos in one of his increasingly unprofessional posts, in which Soleil no longer even bothers to deny being based on the Diku code, but instead just claims that there's nothing the Diku team can do about it. Of course that doesn't bother the_logos here, who apparently seems to think he's extended "professional courtesy" to them by giving them a warm welcome (which, in retrospect, is probably quite fitting).

[GuruPlayer]

I posted this reply on another thread, but I figured I'll post it again here:
I am a mud player, I don't know coding, am not & have never been an IMM for any mud, have never reached Hero/avatar status on any mud... just a mud player. Now I've been playing muds for a little over a year, so I guess you could call me a veteran newbie. So I hadn't heard of this Medievia controversy, & didn't know what to make of it. Then I see that Molly O'Hara, someone who's posts I've always found informative, & respectful to all, posts a thread that she is leaving this board. That is a real shame, and I hope Ms O'Hara comes back, the mud community needs her. Be that as it may, I punch "Medievia code theft" on Google, & read a bunch of different sites, & find a very informative one at http://slithytoves.sytes.net/~kurt/Medievia.html

Now I have been a professional actor for 30 years & I believe I know a little something about copyright infringement, I would like to thank everyone who has posted their objections to Medievia coming back to this website, if you hadn't, I wouldn't have known anything, & no doubt would have played the mud. Now that I did a little research, I can assure you that I will never try it, I will make every effort to inform other newbie mudders like me. The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes tells you all you need to know about their moral alignment.

All in all, I'll be hoping Molly will reconsider, we need her thoughtful insight a #### of a lot more than the logos & others of his ilk...

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ May 08 2005,20:51)  The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes tells you all you need to know about their moral alignment.

Yes, clearly, using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil, not an indication that you're running a business. Darn those lawyers. #### them! So much better to listen to random forum posters for legal advice. By your childish logic, basically every company in the world must be evil, since they all employ lawyers to investigate things like what a contract actually says as opposed to what a few forum posters want it to say.

--matt

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 08 2005,20:56) Yes, clearly, using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil, not an indication that you're running a business

You missed the point.

What GuruPlayer writes:

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ May 08 2005,20:51) The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes...

What the_logos sees:

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ May 08 2005,20:51) The fact that the thieves had a lawyer...

Any questions?

[the_logos]

5-->

Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ May 08 2005,21[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]5)]You missed the point. What GuruPlayer writes: Originally Posted by GuruPlayer,May 08 2005,20:51 The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes... What the_logos sees: Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ May 08 2005,20:51) The fact that the thieves had a lawyer... Any questions?

I think you missed the point. They didn't say they were looking for loopholes. Someone else put words into their mouth. They said they had a lawyer look at it and found it was full of holes, poorly written, probably unenforceable (I think that's what they said, don't quote me. It's the gist of it in any case.) That's called "doing your homework" and in the real world in which some of us try to live, it's standard practice to show contracts to lawyers for general review.

--matt

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 08 2005,21:11) I think you missed the point. They didn't say they were looking for loopholes.

Sorry, my post about the particular point you missed was not concerned with the quality of the Diku license. It was only concerned with your humorous attempt to twist "[they] had a lawyer look for loopholes" into "using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil". One does not follow from the other.

If you want your other, more important points to be taken with any sort of respect then you would do well to avoid such mistakes.

[GuruPlayer]

Well. that's the difference between me & the_logos, I'm just a player & the_logos, unlike 99% of the posters, is in it for the money...gee...That must be why there's no reviewing of any of your muds, hmmmmm?... Yet every couple of weeks like clockwork, here comes another new promotion thread for one of the IRE muds. See, the "professionals" don't look at things like licenses with the premise: "Is it wrong?", they look at it as: "Will I get caught?"

[the_logos]

My partners have asked me in no uncertain terms to stop wasting my time (and thus Iron Realms' time to some extent) arguing with inconsequential random forum posters, particularly when an issue is already settled, such as the Medievia issue (they will be permitted here, they will continue to operate, there's nothing the Kavirs of the world can do about it, etc.). They're right, and I'm wrong.

Enjoy your futile complaints about Medievia! I'm sure you'll continue to have about the same amount of success in preventing them from being successful as you have in the past.

--matt

[Jaregarde]

I wanted to reply about the comparison mentioned in the other thread between Medievia and the Star Wars muds.

First of all, regarding the Lucas license...I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure any good one would know that even for a company that doesn't mind the production of 'fan fiction', it's a pretty good idea to have a license so that the copyright holders can enforce it as strictly as they desire in certain important cases, and still let little things slide (like the Star Wars muds). There is at least one major difference between Medievia and those Star Wars muds, in my opinion, and that is in that the guys at Lucas(that is, George Lucas or whoever owns the copyright) don't really care about the small-scale muds[1] that infringe their copyright. On the other hand, I've seen several quotes on KaVir's website of various DikuMud and Merc creators who are disgusted with how Medievia disrespects their efforts for the mud community.

Originally Posted by Quote (gth @ May 08 2005,19:13) Personally, if I lived near you, Mike, I'd key your car and smack your kids on their way to school daily.   Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****. I'm lodging an official complaint with Synozeer, asking that you be banned. That's so out of bounds it's not even funny.

I agree(not about the 'piece of ****' part ). Its out of line to threaten a person's family, even in jest.

[1] Ok, admittedly I'm making an assumption here that Lucas doesn't care about the Star Wars muds. And also I was guessing that the Star Wars muds are 'small-scale' but I don't really know how popular they are to tell the truth. (I apologize if I offended anyone in calling them 'small-scale'.

Edit: About the last thing I said (before the footnote), allow me to clarify that I don't think gth should necessarily be banned for that comment; I just agree that it was inappropriate.

[WarHound]

Sad that Molly is leaving.

I would rather Medievia stayed off of TMS, but that's Synozeer's call and I'll leave it to him. But aside from mild distaste, I rarely give Medievia thought. I don't like thieves, but is my dislike so intense I'm going to go out of my way to flame them? That's stupid. I'll just ignore them, and reccomend that others do the same.

I hate people...

-WP

[Keriwena]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 08 2005,21:22) My partners have asked me in no uncertain terms to stop

Listen to your partners. They're wiser than you.

They probably can see more.

[Iluvatar]

Originally Posted by (they will be permitted here, they will continue to operate, there's nothing the Kavirs of the world can do about it, etc.).

ROFL...Synozeer has always presented as an intelligent person and I've moderated for a bit of time as has KaVir so we've seen him function. Do you honestly think if the public outcry was large enough, Midievia would survive on TMS? I'm sure the advertising coins are nice but I don't think he makes a living off of it. As to continuing to operate, sure they will, dishonor is an honorable behavior when you get to cash the checks, I just don't need to see it in my face.

I was anti-Midievia on TMC and walked away from TMC largely because of their presence and the other children flaming most of the things other people said. Fortunately, we have a decent cadre of intelligent people here and it really never gets as bad as TMC.

edited to fix the backwards quote symbols.

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 08 2005,19:28) Originally Posted by (gth @ May 08 2005,19:13) Personally, if I lived near you, Mike, I'd key your car and smack your kids on their way to school daily.   Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****. I'm lodging an official complaint with Synozeer, asking that you be banned. That's so out of bounds it's not even funny. --matt

Whoa, I actually agree with the_logos here. Just because somebody's a complete *** doesn't mean you should kill their children, even though it may say so in the bible.

Can't you find other ways to go about this? I hope you were just joking, but even so, that's pretty awful.

[Berg]

I see a lot of posts on this topic in one forum or another and i do expect to get flamed....
I voice my view on the matter Diku intented the code to be used for the benifit of many not the enrichment of a few by useing their code for personal gain.
Finding loopholes useing lawers who cares turn your backs on the issue refuse to give it any standing in the mud community and stop supporting those that help it along.
For those that support this immoral use of the law to polute an artist work with commercial gain shame on you.

If you dont like what I say live with it, thats my oppinion

[Berg]

sorry i double clicke the post button

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 09 2005,03:22) My partners have asked me in no uncertain terms to stop wasting my time (and thus Iron Realms' time to some extent) arguing with inconsequential random forum posters

By which, of course, you mean that your partners have asked you to stop making even more bad publicity for their muds by associating yourself with and publically defending a well-known mud thief.

You should listen to them more often, and perhaps one day people might even start to take your posts seriously.

[Ilkidarios]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 08 2005,19:28) Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****.

Yeah, that is pretty overboard. It's a freaking MUD license! How passionate can you get about this stuff?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 09 2005,05:11) By which, of course, you mean that your partners have asked you to stop making even more bad publicity for their muds by associating yourself with and publically defending a well-known mud thief.

It was more along the lines of (referring to, frankly, you and a few other posters), "Matt, what are you doing? Does Bill Gates stoop to arguing with random forum trolls on Slashdot? They're beneath you."

I just didn't want to put it that way, because they're more dismissive of people like you than even I am, and I know how easily some TMS posters work themselves into a tantrum.

--matt

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by It was more along the lines of (referring to, frankly, you and a few other posters), "Matt, what are you doing? Does Bill Gates stoop to arguing with random forum trolls on Slashdot? They're beneath you."

One wonders why you had to be told that by others. A shame they didn't rein you in earlier.

[Delerak]

Total slaughter... Total slaughter... I won't leave a single man.. alive... La-di-da-di-dai - Geno-cide.. La-di-da-di-dad .. an ocean of blood... Let's begin the killing time..

[PhoenixFlare]

Gotta be more tired than I thought, finding that more funny than it should rightly be tonight Must dig out the box set and watch an episode or two. *nods to self*

[Kopribear]

Are we all children here? Good lord, perhaps they should begin putting a maturity level requirement on MUDs and deviations thus. Lack-wit sarcasm is completely uncalled for... *sparkle* especially following posts with properly witted sarcasm. I will take an example, which is incidentally the only example I can find suitable on this board. Matt simply stated his opinion, albeit sarcastically, and that bruised some egos. Yet he was intelligent in doing so. Next those of you whose egos took a beating in his well-worded post replied, in some instances almost trying to take his words out of context, and proceeded to not attack what he said, but him as a person. That's unfair, especially as he had enough respect to leave personal attacks out. The probable reason that he was asked to stop arguing is that it's unbecoming of an administrator to bicker with children who don't even seem to read over what they type before posting it... so don't attack him for that, either.

Anyway, this is only my second post, perhaps there's simply some friendly rivalry that I've misinterpreted... however, I doubt it. My advice to you all: grow up. If you don't like a website for its principles, then don't support it. Just don't personally attack the people who happen to disagree with you. Play nice, boys and girls.

[Delerak]

Go away you fools with no posts, you must have more then a hundred posts to continue with these very important discussions! Where are these people coming from! They are stumbling from their caves of never-postism and beginning to rally! I'll kill all of your children!!

[Kopribear]

*bounce* Aww, Delly, you're cute. *stuffs him into her pocket* I'm working on the number of posts I've made, but many of you have... oh say two or three years on me... it's gonna take a little catching up to do. Instead of judging by the number of posts I've made, though, how about what I said? ...y'all were new once, too, and were just as respectable as you are now. If not less.

[Keriwena]

Originally Posted by (Kopribear @ May 09 2005,22:21) *bounce* Aww, Delly, you're cute. *stuffs him into her pocket* I'm working on the number of posts I've made, but many of you have... oh say two or three years on me... it's gonna take a little catching up to do. Instead of judging by the number of posts I've made, though, how about what I said? ...y'all were new once, too, and were just as respectable as you are now. If not less.

> Instead of judging by the number of posts I've made, though, how about what I said?

Well, I think you were trying to be condescending. Would you like some lessons?

[gth]

Just to clarify my comment --

In a world of justice, those who commit crimes are punished.  I know in the USA you all seem to think the courts and endless litigation are a wonderful solution, but in the not too distant past you took up justice yourself if you were wronged - the closest thing we have to that today is defending yourself when someone attacks you (although even then you need to go through endless police and court proceedings to prove that you were in fact defending yourself).

My perspective is to report crime when I see it happening.  I get involved because not only can't I stand to see a criminal getting away with their crime without any form of punishment (or worse, profitting from it),  but moreover it sickens me to think of the pain that their victims go through - whether it be as simple as losing their hard years of effort producing intellectual property (IP), or a rape victim never feeling safe in public again.

So how does a Diku licence violation compare?  A bit overboard, huh?  Well, I'm not claiming death rights on anyone, so that should reassure a few  But seriously, the concept of doing nothing at all offends my ethics - and I'd #### well do something if I could.  At the very least I see educating the ignorant about what this particular criminal is up to is one method: Medthievia's paying customers will hopefully leave him, find and pay for a more deserving MUD and TMS will still get their advertising revenue in the long run.

Hopefully Methievia will then simply close through lack of customers, and that may be, in the end, the only way it finally ends, since the Diku guys know the legal expenses, etc. in trying to actually bring the criminals before a judge and get their just desserts.

But Mike's on my ****list for sure - anyone who thinks he should be on my christmas card list should probably explain why first.     To all those who work hard writing original code and sharing in both the letter and spirit of GNU and Diku licences... I'd send you a card if I could.  

Have a nice day.

{edit: apologies if anyone thinks damnation is part of a profanity - it isn't in my country}

[Delerak]

They should start charging to use Linux code! And all the mozilla products should cost money! Everything should cost money I say! Why not! It would stop all this foolish IP I keep hearing about, charge for everything! I think it should cost 1$ just to register at topmudsites then we could rid ourselves of these Medthievia people I keep hearing so much about! Yes. This is the solution, release nothing and charge for everything, become a capitalist internet and destroy the soul of those names and legends we all love - Hans Henrick Staerfeldt, Katja Nyboe, Michael Saefert, and Sebastian Hammer.

-D