[Valg]

As advertised elsewhere, <span style='color:red'>Carrion Fields</span> is designed to be a roleplay environment.  We do offer a newbie channel for "how to play" type questions, but we don't let it subvert the potential for character-to-character interaction.

I certainly don't think our "treatment of newbies (is) Nazi-esque to say the least".  (On a broader note, trivializing the actions of the Nazi party by comparing it to anything that happens on an online game is ridiculous.)   I arrived about halfway through the conversation cited in our most recent review, and I've appended a log of the three minutes I observed so people can form their own opinions.

In any event, I encourage players thinking about us as a new MUD to read all of our reviews.  They've been authored by a mix of newer and more veteran players, and there's a great deal of useful information in there.


(Newbie) Pashka: is this not the only channel available?  i thought that in one of the help files it was also where we could search for and find hunting partners

(Newbie) Vrac: I was under the same impression.

(Newbie) An Immortal: All mortal-mortal communication is done In Character.

(Newbie) Nashalya: Got to do that by asking people

(Newbie) Tzydin: you're not supposed to look for groupmates here

(Newbie) Babbette: usually they do it in rp

(Newbie) Tzydin: groupmaters are IC (in-character) matter

(Newbie) An Immortal: No, that's what it's not for.  It's only for out of character questions about the game.

(Newbie) Nashalya: use who group and who newbie to find people to ask

(Newbie) Pashka: rp?

(Newbie) Gremnosh: Help tell

(Newbie) Tzydin: (role play)

(Newbie) Alexi: who group shows a list of those whom it is possible for you to group with

(Newbie) Babbette: sorry, role play yeah

(Newbie) Tzydin: type 'help role play'

(Newbie) An Immortal: 'help newbie channel' explains.  Use say, tell, etc. to communicate with other players IC.

(Newbie) Tzydin: then type 'help newbie' and 'help newbie2'

(Newbie) Tzydin: and in the end type 'help ic' and you're set

(Newbie) Vrac: Heh, that's not real conducive to true newbies here. I've yet to have anyone help me really, and those I've asked weren't very into it.

(Newbie) Vrac: That's just me of course.

(Newbie) Nashalya: Remember your an orc.

(Newbie) Pashka: im not...im a cute half-elf that is looking to play

(Newbie) Vrac: I created as an Orc because my first character got so little help, I figure I might as well deserve it. I've mudded long enough that I don't mind the ignoring

(Newbie) An Immortal: Again, this is not a chat channel.

(Newbie) An Immortal: Please stick to Q&A, so we can focus on answering the questions.

(Newbie) Vrac: Ugh, gimme a break, heh. Lost a few players for that one, Imm On Crack.

[Kylotan]

It does seem like the people there are more willing to tell newbies what they shouldn't do rather than what they should do, though. Perhaps a little more lenience towards very new players might be popular? Depends whether you feel you want more newbies, I suppose...

[Kastagaar]

In my opinion, any review that Godwins itself isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Other than that, it looks like the "game collective" of immortals and players were doing their best to accommodate a new player who was unfamiliar not only with the game, but the game genre, by providing helpful pointers, including the relevant help files.

But to be honest, the reviewer is a) stuck in an "I can't get any help so I'm not going to accept any help, so that I can call it unhelpful" mindset and b) reviewing a role-play mud without knowing what "rp" stands for, which says something for the quality of the review. I respectfully reiterate my first paragraph.

[jornel]

Valg,

Don't take the 'nazi' label as a personal insult having anything to do with WWII.  The term 'rp nazi' is a common one I've heard,  used to refer to someone who insists that all rp must follow a particular set of rules (and usually it is rules not to their liking).

As somone who runs a mud, you obviously must have decided on some rules for your game.  If someone with a more relaxed attitude came along and found your rules too strict or confining, then that explains their use of the 'rp nazi' (or nazi-esque) label. Blame Seinfeld's soup nazi "No soup for you!" for the term. 

A longer thread about the use of this term and suggested alternates can be found here.

[Kylotan]

Originally Posted by (Kastagaar @ Nov. 10 2003,08:50) Other than that, it looks like the "game collective" of immortals and players were doing their best to accommodate a new player who was unfamiliar not only with the game, but the game genre, by providing helpful pointers, including the relevant help files.

But it's about the attitude. Pashka thought it was the only channel available for what was considered a valid comment; nobody explained whether this was true or false. The 'immortal' (who obviously didn't want to be accountable, always a bad sign) wasn't exactly very friendly in advising about the nature of communication. In fact they almost went so far as to censor any kind of discussion. Maybe that was the wrong channel for such a debate, but I didn't see anyone explaining where the correct channel was, if one even exists. Saying "don't do that; look at this help file, it tells you not to do it" is not helping a newbie, it's community policing. Overall it just seemed like an overly taciturn and unfriendly way of dealing with new players, and the phrase "that's not real conducive to true newbies" looks very true.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by Jornel: As somone who runs a mud, you obviously must have decided on some rules for your game.  If someone with a more relaxed attitude came along and found your rules too strict or confining, then that explains their use of the 'rp nazi' (or nazi-esque) label.

Yup.  I'm aware a lot of people throw it around lightly.  I just find it ignorant.

Originally Posted by Kylotan: Pashka thought it was the only channel available for what was considered a valid comment; nobody explained whether this was true or false.

I thought that was what was being communicated in the Immortal's first two responses.  Maybe we're reading it differently.

Originally Posted by Kylotan: (who obviously didn't want to be accountable, always a bad sign)

Actually, our guidelines are that rules/OOC matters are handled like that where possible.  It disentangles the "nuts and bolts" running of the MUD with the person's IC persona.   Because mortal/immortal IC contact is reasonably common, we don't want it influenced by things like this.

As for accountability, we log an awful lot, and we have multiple mechanisms in place for handling complaints against Immortals.  Within the ranks, feedback is swift and common.  Since we have a staff of 30+ Immortals, you're rarely steering the ship alone in any case.

[Kylotan]

In re-reading, I was wrong to say that the question wasn't answered, but I still don't feel it was answered in a polite or very explanatory way. Admittedly the whole setup seems a little newbie-hostile, but such is the way of games like yours. No doubt it filters out a lot of the more annoying players...

[Alysrith]

Kylotan wrote:

==But it's about the attitude. Pashka thought it was the only channel available for what was considered a valid comment; nobody explained whether this was true or false.

This statement is false, as per the following readily seen information:

Question:  (Newbie) Pashka: is this not the only channel available? i thought that in one of the help files it was also where we could search for and find hunting partners

Answer:  (Newbie) An Immortal: All mortal-mortal communication is done In Character.
(General answer)

Answer: (Newbie) An Immortal: No, that's what it's not for. It's only for out of character questions about the game.
(More specific answer:  This channel isn't for "A."  The channel  is only for "B")

Answer: (Newbie) An Immortal: 'help newbie channel' explains. Use say, tell, etc. to communicate with other players IC.
(Even more specific answer:  Other commands are suggested)

I fail to see where "nobody explained."  On the contrary…the explanations look quite specific.
(And this isn't even including the helpful comments from other mortals.)

==The 'immortal' (who obviously didn't want to be accountable, always a bad sign) wasn't exactly very friendly in advising about the nature of communication.

As for accountability, I’m sorry, but you don't know what you 're talking about.  Just because you can't see their name here, doesn't mean they aren't accountable for their actions.

As for advising about the nature of communication:  The immortal gave them the pertinent information.  I fail to see where you thought such "wasn't exactly very friendly."  Since you seem to have missed it, I'll paste it here for you again, and if you would care to explain how this  straight-forward, professional, and pertinent answer was unfriendly, go right ahead:

Answer: (Newbie) An Immortal: 'help newbie channel' explains. Use say, tell, etc. to communicate with other players IC.

== In fact they almost went so far as to censor any kind of discussion. Maybe that was the wrong channel for such a debate, but I didn't see anyone explaining where the correct channel was, if one even exists.

It was the wrong channel.  They were told that "help newbie channel" explains things, and it does.  Aside from this singular newbie-only channel for questions, there are no other OOC channels.  Carrion Fields is intended to be an immersive RP environment.  Such an environment isn't something that goes well with abundant OOC channels.

The immortal in question was answering questions professionally and in detail, and the other players were helping out too.  If Vrac needed a question answered, he could have asked.  I'm sorry, but there isn't a "I want to complain instead of asking the questions I need help with" channel.  Between e-mail, in-game notes, and our official web-site, there are many ways for players to voice opinions both negative and positive.  Creating more spam on a newbie help channel isn't the place for it.  (Which, yes, would have been apparent had they read the stated helpfile…and should have been apparent by the text written by the immortal and other players regardless of whether they read the helpfile).

==Saying "don't do that; look at this help file, it tells you not to do it" is not helping a newbie, it's community policing. Overall it just seemed like an overly taciturn and unfriendly way of dealing with new players, and the phrase "that's not real conducive to true newbies" looks very true.

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.
Carrion Fields has a lot of easily accessible help files.  How is it unfriendly to teach newbies that this information  A.  exists, and B. is readily available?   If a newbie wants to learn a new text-mud…umm…they are going to have to read.    If they aren't willing to put in the effort to help themselves by reading the helpfiles, there isn't much that can be done to help them.

As far as what you term 'community  policing' from the above log:  how is that a bad thing?  Other more experienced players know the rules and the game, and were obviously trying to help steer the newbie in the right direction.  When everyone pitches in to help those new to the game…how can that be a harmful or unfriendly thing?
On the contrary…I would say that sort of environment, in conjunction with a good helpfile system is very conducive to true newbies.

Alysrith,

Immortal, Carrionfields

[Kit]

I just want to add to this that anyone who ends their conversation with an insult (Imm on crack) and a meaningless threat (lost a few players for that one) generally doesn't merit much concern. In my experience, these have been the people who wanted everything handed to them and became upset when they were taught how to help themselves instead. He loses credibility even further with the fact that he didn't ask for any sort of help, didn't ask any questions, and contributed absolutely nothing useful to the conversation. As far as I can tell from the snippet that was posted, the immortal in question was very polite and professional.

[Kylotan]

As for accountability, I’m sorry, but you don't know what you 're talking about.  Just because you can't see their name here, doesn't mean they aren't accountable for their actions.

So if that immortal had chosen to be rude or offensive, and no other immortal was there at the time to witness it, how would a player go about submitting a complaint? This is why real-world police are usually numbered.

As for advising about the nature of communication:  The immortal gave them the pertinent information.  I fail to see where you thought such "wasn't exactly very friendly."

The players didn't want information. They wanted help. Instead they were just told that they were going the wrong way about getting that help.

Carrion Fields is intended to be an immersive RP environment.  Such an environment isn't something that goes well with abundant OOC channels.

And if a player thinks a help file is misleading (as in this case),or is interested in discussing something with a member of staff? Sorry, no discussion allowed. (Apparently.) "e-mail, in-game notes, and our official web-site" are not convenient ways for a MUD-player to communicate with one of the admins.

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.

Tell a man "no, don't eat meat. we don't eat meat here. type 'help fish'. This is not the place to ask about meat.", and he'll probably leave to find somewhere that is going to be a bit more friendly when correcting his ignorance.

Carrion Fields has a lot of easily accessible help files.  How is it unfriendly to teach newbies that this information  A.  exists, and B. is readily available?

It's a stock response for mud staff everywhere to think that player assistance begins and ends with help files. It shouldn't. There are too many things you can't really learn from just reading. It takes a fellow human to help you to understand. This is why universities don't just give you a pile of books and tell you to come back for the exams in 3 or 4 years.

As far as what you term 'community  policing' from the above log:  how is that a bad thing?  Other more experienced players know the rules and the game, and were obviously trying to help steer the newbie in the right direction.  When everyone pitches in to help those new to the game…how can that be a harmful or unfriendly thing?

People pitching in is good; it's the way they go about it. All the 'help' in the transcribed interaction was regarding what not to do, and where to read about not doing it. Nobody made reference to the original problem that brought this up - apparent inability to find hunting partners. Would it have been so wrong to have given the newbies a hand in telling them where (in game) they have the best chance of meeting people? Or maybe you have a help file on that which you could direct them to? Did anyone take Pashka seriously and ask about this alleged erroneous help file? Whereas Vrac may well have an attitude problem, I don't think the conversation treats Pashka very well.

[Jazuela]

(Newbie) Nashalya: Got to do that by asking people

(Newbie) Babbette: usually they do it in rp

(Newbie) Tzydin: groupmaters are IC (in-character) matter

(Newbie) Nashalya: use who group and who newbie to find people to ask

(Newbie) Gremnosh: Help tell

(Newbie) Alexi: who group shows a list of those whom it is possible for you to group with

(Newbie) An Immortal: 'help newbie channel' explains. Use say, tell, etc. to communicate with other players IC.

(Newbie) Tzydin: then type 'help newbie' and 'help newbie2'

(Newbie) Tzydin: and in the end type 'help ic' and you're set

----------------------

All the above look like -positive- rather than -negative- sends from players who are offering their help. It's pretty clear to me that they were being short and concise so as to deliver the information requested without a lot of fluff inbetween.

If you want fluffy snuggly-pooh teddy-bear hand-outs, find a fluffy snuggly-pooh teddy-bear game. In your post, your wording of your opinion seems to imply that you would rather have had half the game start shouting HEY NEWBIE WELCOME TO THE GAME! Glad to have you here, so how's your mom? Do you have a dog? I do, his name's Fluff and he's great! Oh and by the way, find me in the game and pretend that you don't know me. I'm Jojo and I'm on Main Street at the tavern. you can get there from where you are by typing n, ne, e, ne, up, s, e, ne, enter tavern. Then look for me, you'll know it's me because my name's on your screen. Don't worry that my character doesn't know you from a hole in the wall. We'll just pretend we're roleplaying and I"ll give you lots of stuff and take you hunting. Even though my race hates yours but hey - it's just a game right? We'll pretend that my character likes yours anyway. Just so I can help you. And take you hunting. And give you stuff. Oh and don't worry about that OOC newbie channel, you can just ask me ooc stuff when we meet up and ignore the rules since no one cares about them anyway. They just SAY it's a strict game where you really need to read the helpfiles before playing, but they don't really mean it.

OR

They could just save themselves a lot of unneccessary drivel by saying exactly what was said. If a newbie's feelings get hurt by being given facts instead of diatribe, then he probably shouldn't be playing that kind of game anyway.

The original question was answered, by a few different people, each giving different information that would help the newbie find what he needed to find in the most appropriate method available. Perhaps you prefer the touchy-feely method, but touchy-feely isn't efficient. As for "where in the game" they should find people, I'm guessing the helpfiles explained in great detail either exactly where to find them, or how to look for them via roleplaying and aventure. I don't play Carrion Fields so I wouldn't know but it sounds like the kind of game that takes its help files and RP-enforcement seriously.

[Valg]

I think at this point we'll have to accept that our style doesn't match what Kylotan looks for. I don't think that reflects badly on either side- it's why there's so many games out there. However, given the nature of our game, it's been our philosophy that the sooner we teach you how to teach yourself, the better it is for you.

The problem with questions like this:

Originally Posted by Would it have been so wrong to have given the newbies a hand in telling them where (in game) they have the best chance of meeting people?

The 'correct' answer, in my opinion, would go on for several paragraphs. Now, given that the newbie channel has 20+ people on it during prime hours, I think it's much more correct to refer people to the correct helpfiles (which was done in the log above), where they can find literally pages of hints and information. This way, other people's screens aren't flooded, the asker gets information that has been fact-checked and cross-referenced, and they know where to find it again if they forget later.

For similar reasons, it doesn't surprise me to see someone from Armageddon seeing things from our perspective (also on threads like selling in-game rewards). I like how you guys run things over there also, and it's good to see more true role-playing games doing well.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ Nov. 11 2003,13:27) I think at this point we'll have to accept that our style doesn't match what Kylotan looks for. I don't think that reflects badly on either side- it's why there's so many games out there. However, given the nature of our game, it's been our philosophy that the sooner we teach you how to teach yourself, the better it is for you. The problem with questions like this: Originally Posted by Would it have been so wrong to have given the newbies a hand in telling them where (in game) they have the best chance of meeting people? The 'correct' answer, in my opinion, would go on for several paragraphs. Now, given that the newbie channel has 20+ people on it during prime hours, I think it's much more correct to refer people to the correct helpfiles (which was done in the log above), where they can find literally pages of hints and information. This way, other people's screens aren't flooded, the asker gets information that has been fact-checked and cross-referenced, and they know where to find it again if they forget later. For similar reasons, it doesn't surprise me to see someone from Armageddon seeing things from our perspective (also on threads like selling in-game rewards). I like how you guys run things over there also, and it's good to see more true role-playing games doing well.

Well I'm not one of "you guys" - meaning I'm not on their staff, or one of the player "Helpers" - and I'm still considered a newbie on Arm.

But even after just over a year of playing, I've come to truly appreciate being given only enough help needed to find what I need on my own.

And in some cases, I get enough information to learn that what I'm looking for, I shouldn't be able to find at all...or that maybe it isn't appropriate for me to be looking in the first place.

It sounds to me like Carrion Fields runs things in a similar way, though slightly less restrictive because you have a Newbie channel whereas Arm does not.

For whoever takes issue with Carrion Fields' method of helping players, I would suggest you -not- try Armageddon. If you can't handle concise, clear information delivered without a lot of fluff, you will absolutely HATE Arm. And that's fine too. Like Valq says - what you find attractive in a game, others might find unattractive - and vice versa. No crime in that, as long as you take the time to investigate first.

[Kylotan]

Well, I'm certainly not telling you (Valg) how to run your game, nor is "what Kylotan looks for" relevant here. Nor is Jazuela's deliberately exaggerated example anything like what I would like to see, if I had any say in the matter. I would however point out that the website does not go very far in communicating the gameplay style to prospective players, making it unsurprising that some newbies don't get what they expected. I just think that the posted example is quite enough justification for someone to call the game unfriendly to newbies. I would probably argue that any 'immersive RP environment' without a separate way of interacting OOC is newbie-unfriendly. But, it's not my game, so good luck to you.

Originally Posted by So if that immortal had chosen to be rude or offensive

You already said the immortal wasn't very friendly, and taciturn. Other people have disagreed, accountabilty has nothing to do with it. Even then, as you can see it was already logged, and those in charge probably know who did it. Logs abound on muds.

Originally Posted by The players didn't want information. They wanted help. Instead they were just told that they were going the wrong way about getting that help.

We all saw the log, it was even in the note you replied to.

(Newbie) Pashka: is this not the only channel available? i thought that in one of the help files it was also where we could search for and find hunting partners
(Newbie) An Immortal: All mortal-mortal communication is done In Character.
(Newbie) An Immortal: No, that's what it's not for. It's only for out of character questions about the game.
(Newbie) An Immortal: 'help newbie channel' explains. Use say, tell, etc. to communicate with other players IC.


Looks like an abundance of help.

Originally Posted by Tell a man "no, don't eat meat. we don't eat meat here. type 'help fish'. This is not the place to ask about meat.", and he'll probably leave to find somewhere that is going to be a bit more friendly when correcting his ignorance.

That is another misleading statement. The real situation: Player asks if there are any other channels and if this one is appropriate. Player is told no, IC is the only way these are the commands and here is the help file for finding out more.

This would be akin to: Joe asks if there is any other food, and if this mushroom is appropriate. Joe is told no, fish is the only thing to eat here, there is the stream and here's some tips.

Originally Posted by It takes a fellow human to help you to understand. This is why universities don't just give you a pile of books and tell you to come back for the exams in 3 or 4 years.

More like because people are too lazy to do it themselves. Just kidding, you are wrong. Many universities offer distant learning, quite a few of my friends have received diplomas online from real colleges and universities. (EArmyU

Originally Posted by Would it have been so wrong to have given the newbies a hand in telling them where (in game) they have the best chance of meeting people? Or maybe you have a help file on that which you could direct them to?

Q1: It's roleplaying, find out. =)
Q2: Pashka asked: "Is this the only channel available?" followed by a musing about thinking he could use it to find a hunting buddy. They directed him to the help file.


I think he was treated quite well, from what I saw of the log. If there was more of the log that I have not seen, feel free to correct me.

Jazuela

Originally Posted by HEY NEWBIE WELCOME TO THE GAME! Glad to have you here, so how's your mom? Do you have a dog? I do, his name's Fluff and he's great! Oh and by the way, find me in the game and pretend that you don't know me. I'm Jojo and I'm on Main Street at the tavern. you can get there from where you are by typing n, ne, e, ne, up, s, e, ne, enter tavern. Then look for me, you'll know it's me because my name's on your screen. Don't worry that my character doesn't know you from a hole in the wall. We'll just pretend we're roleplaying and I"ll give you lots of stuff and take you hunting. Even though my race hates yours but hey - it's just a game right? We'll pretend that my character likes yours anyway. Just so I can help you. And take you hunting. And give you stuff. Oh and don't worry about that OOC newbie channel, you can just ask me ooc stuff when we meet up and ignore the rules since no one cares about them anyway. They just SAY it's a strict game where you really need to read the helpfiles before playing, but they don't really mean it

Bwahahaha. I love it. Sounds about right on the money for most of the twinks that log on RP-Muds. Although I must say there was a time when the whole IC/OOC was stupid to me as well, until I learned better.

[Kylotan]

Kaylus, your interpretation of the transcript is way too literal and ignores the context. The newbie didn't care about channels, the newbie cared about trying to find hunting partners. That's the 'help' they wanted. The only reason they subsequently asked about channels is because they were obviously told not to look for partners on that channel. Telling the newbies what not to do with the newbie channel may well be necessary, but it's not help that is relevant to their current problem.

Thus, you seem to have missed the entire point of my argument.

Quite what your point about accountability is, I don't know. I prefer people to be visible so that they know that they can't get away with being rude and hiding behind their anonymity. In fact, anonymity is a well-known psychological factor in encouraging anti-social behaviour. The imms on Carrion Fields are probably great, but anonymous figures telling you what you can and can't do tends to come across as unfriendly. You can argue that it is necessary for whatever reason, and I won't argue that point without knowing more about the game in question... but it's still unfriendly from a newbie point of view. Which is what this was about.

As for logs... yes, most muds keep logs, but few will log every channel used by every character. Maybe Carrion Fields is an exception, but that would be