[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,03:20) Even though ThresholdRPG does not have recurring fees, the administrators do send out notices to customers that have not added to their registration total in over a year asking them to send in more money to add to their overall registration.

OH MY GOD! THE HORROR! NOT A *shudder* *quake in fear* NOTICE! ACK!

You mean we actually want to stay financially solvent so we can stay in business?

The fact that you felt the need to specifically mention this in a "gotcha" manner is hilarious.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,03:14) Even though credits are required for certain things, it still doesn't change the fact that it is free to play, because again you can play that (emphasis mine) game without having to pay. Now if the IRE games were to label themselves as "free" (with no "to play" addendum) then I would have a bone to pick with them as they are indeed not free. But as you see the IRE administrators have carefully added the "to play" addendum so as to not mislead you as to the game being absolutely free. Again I see nothing wrong with the way IRE advertises themselves. Originally Posted by I'm curious how you define "out-of-touch".  How does that term apply to me?  Examples? That's an example of being out of touch. Adding extra meaning to terms and phrases where no such extra meaning exist. It is very apparent that you are twisting the mean of the term "free to play" to make it fit your agenda. Yes your (sic) communist (we'll leave out the bull**** this time around to play nice) propoganda (sic) of trying to make all MUD's equal.

You're not playing the same game as someone who's paying for credits.  It may be played in the same world, but it's not the same game.  It'd be like playing 2-on-5 basketball.  So no, it's not free-to-play if you want to play the same game as those buying credits.

All MUDs aren't equal and I have no intention of trying to make them so because it's impossible.  For example, trying to make the quality of RP on a Viagra MUD consistently equal to that of an RPI would be a hopeless task because the system's just not set up for RP.  The ability to use outside factors to affect in-game performance destroys the RP environment.  Likewise, it's not set up for player-skill-based PvP since the credit system can be used to gain advantage beyond one's abilities (see the above 2-on-5 basketball game).  Nothing that can be done will make all MUDs equal so long as there are niche types.

I don't care to waste my time trying to achieve that which won't happen.  For example, in the case of my own MUD, we're not trying to create a MUD that will appeal to as many people as possible.  We're concentrating on developing a comprehensive world with a social structure that is as functional and accurate as we can get it to the historical model we're using.  We know this won't appeal to the average MUDder at all and even the average RPI MUDder may find it less than attractive at first.  We're fine with that because we're trying to cater to those players that concentrate on character development and total immersion into the social setting and culture rather than those who take a casual approach toward RP consistency.  Therefore, we won't be advertising ourselves as anything but what we are.  The problem with most MUDs though is that they try to advertise themselves as everything to everyone.  And for people using this site (and has been pointed out, regardless of a few commercial MUD owners' opinion, this is more than a traffic exchange), honesty would be nice when trying to find what they want, rather than what the MUDs themselves want to sell you.

And finally, your continued misuse of the word "communism" indicates one of two things, if not both:  your poor vocabulary and/or your close-minded, paranoid fear and protectionism of your prefered MUD.  Try learning a bit about terms you don't understand before you use them.  You'll come across a little more intelligent.  And while you're learning the definition of communism, take a little time to learn how to spell propaganda correctly.  Then you won't look like you're both ignorant and illiterate.

Take care,

Jason

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,09:14) No.. free to play means free to play. The term doesn't imply anything else besides simply telling you that you can play something for free. Again, could you play any IRE an unlimited amount of hours without having to pay?

Yes. Guild Wars and Threshold are also free to play (just not free to buy/register), and you'll see Guild Wars advertising itself as such. Many of the large monthly-fee commercial muds also allow you to play for free (as long as you don't mind creating a new account each month).

The problem is that if you use the term 'free' to mean only 'free to play' and nothing more, then most commercial muds would have good grounds for arguing that they fall into that classification. I think this could get very confusing for prospective players.

[The_Disciple]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,03:14) Yes your communist (we'll leave out the bull**** this time around to play nice) propoganda of trying to make all MUD's equal.

Okay, the joke is up and I'm on to you. No one could write that sentence in all seriousness.

Oh noes! The commies is coming to get us and wash our brainses! Awesome, man. Just awesome.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Jan. 11 2006,03:26) OH MY GOD! THE HORROR! NOT A *shudder* *quake in fear* NOTICE! ACK! You mean we actually want to stay financially solvent so we can stay in business?

(Note: It got confusing talking about both Threshold (the game and business entity) and Threshold (the forum poster who owns it), so I'm referring to the latter as Mr. Threshold.)

Heck, we ask our playerbase on our forums to donate if they can, maybe once or twice a year. We don't send them anything beyond a thank-you, and it doesn't do anything to the gameplay (we don't even know what characters are associated, since donations arrive with the player's RL name, which we don't track). Completely voluntary requests like that don't make you a commercial enterprise, and I don't think anyone would confuse us with one.

Threshold is pay-to-play because there's a mandatory fee up front. It's what they advertise, and I agree with Mr. Threshold's philosophy that it probably saves them heartburn to make it clear up front.

I'm not some crazy hippy railing against the Corporate Man. At my day job, people pay me a generous salary for my services, and those people and I get along swimmingly. If I didn't like it, I could leave. Mr. Threshold gets paid for his services, doing whatever he does on a daily basis to keep the MUD running. If he didn't like it, he could leave. If his customers didn't like it, they could leave. There's no difference there- all the relationships are mutually agreed upon.

I'm also not pretending I have no stake in this. I've stated a number of times that what I don't like is that TMS uses the same word ("Free") to describe both Carrion Fields-type games and IRE-type games, even though we use very different business models. I enjoy my game, I've taken on the responsibility of advocating it here, and that's part of it. I think that my agenda (accurate labeling) is beneficial to my game. I also honestly think it is beneficial to players who are looking for a game to play.

If I had a "hidden agenda", as some posters have implied about people on this thread, I wouldn't be signing every one of my posts with my "MUD name", my affiliation and title, and the CF logo waving away in the upper left corner. I sign them that way in the interest of accurately labeling myself as well.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Jan. 11 2006,03:26) Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,03:20) Even though ThresholdRPG does not have recurring fees, the administrators do send out notices to customers that have not added to their registration total in over a year asking them to send in more money to add to their overall registration. OH MY GOD! THE HORROR! NOT A *shudder* *quake in fear* NOTICE! ACK! You mean we actually want to stay financially solvent so we can stay in business? The fact that you felt the need to specifically mention this in a "gotcha" manner is hilarious.

And am I chastising you for writing such a letter? No.

However, Mina stated that Threshold is a pay-for-perks MUD rather than a pay-to-play MUD,. I was just using this to counter her sentiment that she views Threshold more as a pay-for-perks. That's all.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Jan. 11 2006,05:12) Yes.  Guild Wars and Threshold are also free to play (just not free to buy/register), and you'll see Guild Wars advertising itself as such.  Many of the large monthly-fee commercial muds also allow you to play for free (as long as you don't mind creating a new account each month). The problem is that if you use the term 'free' to mean only 'free to play' and nothing more, then most commercial muds would have good grounds for arguing that they fall into that classification.  I think this could get very confusing for prospective players.

But do you have to recreate a new character every month for an IRE game? Can you play an unlimited amount of hours on an IRE game without having your character deleted because of non-payment?

I am not using the term "free" to mean "free to play". I am using the term "free to play" to mean "free to play". There is really nothing ambiguous about it really. As long as you allow a player to play a game without forcing them to pay anything means that said game is free to play. The fact that said game might allow you to enhance your character into an uber-man by allowing users to pay for it is irrelevant. They don't force your character to become uber-man, it's your choice to do so.

As I said, I would have a problem with IRE if they did label their games as "free" only.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Jan. 11 2006,05:06) You're not playing the same game as someone who's paying for credits.  It may be played in the same world, but it's not the same game.  It'd be like playing 2-on-5 basketball.  So no, it's not free-to-play if you want to play the same game as those buying credits. All MUDs aren't equal and I have no intention of trying to make them so because it's impossible.  For example, trying to make the quality of RP on a Viagra MUD consistently equal to that of an RPI would be a hopeless task because the system's just not set up for RP.  The ability to use outside factors to affect in-game performance destroys the RP environment.  Likewise, it's not set up for player-skill-based PvP since the credit system can be used to gain advantage beyond one's abilities (see the above 2-on-5 basketball game).  Nothing that can be done will make all MUDs equal so long as there are niche types. I don't care to waste my time trying to achieve that which won't happen.  For example, in the case of my own MUD, we're not trying to create a MUD that will appeal to as many people as possible.  We're concentrating on developing a comprehensive world with a social structure that is as functional and accurate as we can get it to the historical model we're using.  We know this won't appeal to the average MUDder at all and even the average RPI MUDder may find it less than attractive at first.  We're fine with that because we're trying to cater to those players that concentrate on character development and total immersion into the social setting and culture rather than those who take a casual approach toward RP consistency.  Therefore, we won't be advertising ourselves as anything but what we are.  The problem with most MUDs though is that they try to advertise themselves as everything to everyone.  And for people using this site (and has been pointed out, regardless of a few commercial MUD owners' opinion, this is more than a traffic exchange), honesty would be nice when trying to find what they want, rather than what the MUDs themselves want to sell you. And finally, your continued misuse of the word "communism" indicates one of two things, if not both:  your poor vocabulary and/or your close-minded, paranoid fear and protectionism of your prefered MUD.  Try learning a bit about terms you don't understand before you use them.  You'll come across a little more intelligent.  And while you're learning the definition of communism, take a little time to learn how to spell propaganda correctly.  Then you won't look like you're both ignorant and illiterate. Take care, Jason

You are playing the same game. When you log into the MUD the world is identical for each player. You have access to fight the same mobs, the same shops, the same guilds or whatnot.
It's not trying to play 2-on-5 baskteball, it's more like facing a team that has superior players to yours.

Still, your team is allowed to pay for free while the superior team has to pay up for a lot of upgrades. It does not change the fact you can play an unlimited amount of hours without being bothered to pay. That's free to play. You are mistaking the term with something along the lines of "free to play, but not equally".

Oh and I find it funny that you chastise me for misspelling one single word. Calling me illiterate even? Well congratulations sir, you have shown qualities of being a mighty fine proofreader. Must make you feel so superior by pointing it out and then using it to denigrate me. Enjoy the ego boost.

Furthermore, the definition of illiterate is being unable to read and write or showing a lack of formal education. The definition does not make any references to misspelling a word. In that case I guess you are as illiterate as I am for the misuse of a word.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,21:04) Yes.  Guild Wars and Threshold are also free to play (just not free to buy/register), and you'll see Guild Wars advertising itself as such.  Many of the large monthly-fee commercial muds also allow you to play for free (as long as you don't mind creating a new account each month). The problem is that if you use the term 'free' to mean only 'free to play' and nothing more, then most commercial muds would have good grounds for arguing that they fall into that classification.  I think this could get very confusing for prospective players. But do you have to recreate a new character every month for an IRE game? Can you play an unlimited amount of hours on an IRE game without having your character deleted because of non-payment?

However "free to play means free to play. The term doesn't imply anything else besides simply telling you that you can play something for free."

Even though there might be a registration or initial payment fee, and even though with some commercial muds you might have to recreate a new character each month, "it still doesn't change the fact that it is free to play, because again you can play that game without having to pay".

As I stated before, the problem with the arguments you use is that they can be applied equally well to most other commercial muds.

[Atyreus]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Jan. 11 2006,15:30) Even though there might be a registration or initial payment fee, and even though with some commercial muds you might have to recreate a new character each month, "it still doesn't change the fact that it is free to play, because again you can play that game without having to pay".

Again you are ignoring critical distinctions. IRE can honestly and ethically claim that their games are free to play because they have made the games available to everyone for play at no charge. No payment, or even promise of payment, is ever required of such players in order to play the games. Any reasonable person can accept "free to play" as a fair description of such a game. Note what "free to play" does not say: it does not say that you will get all the advantages of a paying player; it does not say you are guaranteed to enjoy the game as much as paying players; it does not say that you won't have to devote extra time for certain achievements that other players can perhaps purchase. It just says that you can log in to the game and play it without paying for it and without ever being expected to pay for it.

Threshold does not make its game available for free to everyone. They allow you a trial period to decide whether or not to become a paying player (IIRC, their helpfile states that you can play for 100 hours for free after which you are expected to pay). If you decide not to, your character will eventually be deleted. Furthermore, unless things have changed since I played there, you cannot just create a new account without permission from the game administration. It's pretty safe to say that the only way you could play Threshold for free is to violate their game rules and constantly re-create accounts under the guise of someone who is actually considering paying for the game.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Again you are ignoring critical distinctions.

No, the problem is that certain people are claiming IRE muds are "free to play" based on the literal meaning of the phrase, while at the same time arguing that other muds are not "free to play" based on their own additions to the definition.

Originally Posted by IRE can honestly and ethically claim that their games are free to play because they have made the games available to everyone for play at no charge.

So do most commercial muds. If I wanted to I could sign up for Gemstone IV right now, and play it for a month, completely free. I could create an account on Threshold and play it tonight if I wished, all without spending a cent.

I could even buy a copy of Guild Wars tomorrow, phone in to work sick, then play it for free as much as I liked - because as they advertise in their press releases, they provide "FREE online play".

Originally Posted by Note what "free to play" does not say: it does not say that you will get all the advantages of a paying player; it does not say you are guaranteed to enjoy the game as much as paying players; it does not say that you won't have to devote extra time for certain achievements that other players can perhaps purchase.

Nor does it say that you'll be able to keep your character for more than a month, or that there won't be any registration or purchase fee.

Originally Posted by Threshold does not make its game available for free to everyone.

Yes, it does - all you have to do is connect and you can start playing. Remember, "free to play means free to play. The term doesn't imply anything else besides simply telling you that you can play something for free."

[Atyreus]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Jan. 11 2006,20<!--emo&[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]So do most commercial muds.  If I wanted to I could sign up for Gemstone IV right now, and play it for a month, completely free.  I could create an account on Threshold and play it tonight if I wished, all without spending a cent.

But why do such games not advertise themselves as "free to play"?  Probably because, in the US at least, offers for free trial periods are generally required to be clearly explained as such so that consumers know what the length of the trial period is, what the conditions of eligibility for such trial periods are, and what, if anything, the consumer needs to do to avoid being charged for continued services after the trial period is over. For example, if my cable TV company advertises an offer for a "free" upgrade to my standard cable service, they have to let me know for how long the upgrade will be free and what action I have to take to cancel the service to avoid being billed for it when the trial period runs out.

Originally Posted by I could even buy a copy of Guild Wars tomorrow, phone in to work sick, then play it for free as much as I liked - because as they advertise in their press releases, they provide "FREE online play".

Guild Wars does not advertise themselves as "free to play." They very clearly qualify "FREE online play" to mean only that you will be allowed to access their servers for online play without having to pay a monthly fee, the assumption being, of course, that you have already purchased their game.  Unless they plan not to charge for their client either, Guild Wars is not free to play; the cost of play is the cost of the client required to play. This is not at all the same as saying that you are offering to let anyone play at no cost.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,15:19) Oh and I find it funny that you chastise me for misspelling one single word.... ...[T]he definition of illiterate is being unable to read and write or showing a lack of formal education. The definition does not make any references to misspelling a word. In that case I guess you are as illiterate as I am for the misuse of a word.

If you'd misspelled just one word, that'd be an error. However, your posts demonstrated numerous misspellings and gramattical errors as well as your ignorance of the meaning of the word "communist" which justified an assessment of your literacy as such.

In fact, you just gave another example by showing a limited knowledge of the word "illiterate" itself.

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/illiterate

Originally Posted by Main Entry: il·lit·er·ate Pronunciation: (")i(l)-'li-t(&-)r&t Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin illiteratus, from in- + litteratus literate 1 : having little or no education; especially : unable to read or write 2 a : showing or marked by a lack of familiarity with language and literature b : violating approved patterns of speaking or writing 3 : showing or marked by a lack of acquaintance with the fundamentals of a particular field of knowledge synonym see IGNORANT

Your lack of familiarity with the English language, as demonstrated by your frequent spelling, gramattical and contextual errors meets the definition of the word illiterate.  Hence my use of the term is correct, while your use of the word only further demonstrates your illiteracy through your failure to realize as much.  So, yes, you are illiterate.

Take care,

Jason

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ Jan. 11 2006,15:19) You are playing the same game. When you log into the MUD the world is identical for each player. You have access to fight the same mobs, the same shops, the same guilds or whatnot. It's not trying to play 2-on-5 baskteball, it's more like facing a team that has superior players to yours. Still, your team is allowed to pay for free while the superior team has to pay up for a lot of upgrades. It does not change the fact you can play an unlimited amount of hours without being bothered to pay. That's free to play. You are mistaking the term with something along the lines of "free to play, but not equally".

To further the analogy, their team is not superior by nature, it's superior because they're not constrained to the same limitations, ie. not playing by the same rules and hence not really the same game, because they've paid money and you have not. They get unlimited fouls while five against you sends them the line for some free throws. And while you get one point for a free throw, they get four! That's not the same game.

And neither is paying credits versus "free-to-play". To make "free-to-play" accurate, it should be elaborated upon through the noting of limits. Then it becomes accurate.

Take care,

Jason

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by But why do such games not advertise themselves as "free to play"?

You'd have to ask them that. But that's really completely irrelevent to the fact they are indeed "free to play", going by the literal meaning of that phrase. It's when you start adding your own implied meanings to the phrase that it becomes an issue, yet that's exactly what you've criticised others for doing.