[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Dec. 31 2005,06:26) I simply do not think that having a large playerbase necessarily makes one MUD better than another - and I bet that the vast majority of MUDers would not base its "success" merely off of its size/popularity. Trying to say that I'm an immature communist, just because I don't value gaming success by immediate commercial means, is just sort of silly.

I have never said anything related to "gaming success by immediately commercial means" or whether a "large player base makes one MUD better than another"? You are arguing against a straw man there.

If you want to turn this into a flame war, then you'll have to carry that on with yourself. If you want to discuss things reasonably, I'll try to participate.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Dec. 31 2005,05:20) And I still don't see how eliminating voting bots, or even having separate lists would be negative for the site.

Nobody said eliminating bots, itself, is bad for traffic. But the methods suggested here so far, WOULD be bad for traffic. They would reduce REAL traffic. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Dec. 31 2005,05:20) The reason might be that these people expected TMS to be something _more_ than just a traffic exchange site.

Would you look at a hammer and want it to be _more_ than just a hammer? Do you understand than wanting a hammer to be more than just a hammer is somewhat silly?

The voting element of TMS was specifically designed from the very beginning to be a traffic exchange. The only reason any web site on the internet has any sort of voting or polls is to generate traffic. Period. The votes/polls are always incredibly unscientific, so obviously there is no goal of "truth" for these polls. The goal is always traffic. Period.

It doesn't make any sense to even hope for a voting/poll area of a site to have any other goal or purpose. Traffic is specifically the goal of polls.

As for the whole of TMS, there already is more. There is a large discussion area, and an incredibly worthless review section that should, in my opinion, be completely removed (but that is another issue).

If your desire is for TMS to be a more robust site, suggest features to add, or suggest ways to improve the discussion forums. Discussing changes to the vote portion, especially ways that only reduce traffic, is not productive.

Furthermore, I simply do not believe that any of the people suggesting things like separate lists have ANY goal other than trying to get artificially enhanced prominent placement of their favorite game. They want popular muds to send traffic here, and then their mud to benefit from it unfairly and undeservedly. That's their honest motive, which they occasionally veil thinly with other, transparent goals.

[Sacac]

Well my friend, believe it. I want to have tons and tons of lists to make every need of mine viewable.

Call it a fetish of lists.

The only reason I see that you are against it is because the mud beneath you might steal your players. And every mud beneath you is unworthy of the same treatment you get. I'd rather that the player has list for everything. So they can see a list like the front one with all the muds that fit their query. Censorship by massive amount of uninforming information is a major turn off.

I mean this when I search for death.

Originally Posted by Aaezure Odyssey Info Telnet Web Page Abydos Info Telnet Web Page Akarian Dawn Info Telnet Web Page Alumuble Arda Info Telnet Web Page

Really unproductive.

[DonathinFrye]

Hah, I don't want a flamewar Threshhold. Easiest way to avoid feeling like you are a part of one is to not incorrectly generalize other people's comments, and avoid calling them immature and communistic. Again, it's just silly.

My opinion remains the same; this site is supposedly a resource site, and therefor should be focused on the community as a whole, rather than just a few MUDs. Others have echoed me in this.

On that basis, I still believe improving the accuracy of a fair voting process, as well as creating seperate lists for commercial and non-commercial games is more resourceful/beneficial to the community as a whole.

One last note, Thresh - I never knew the size of your playerbase, nor am I familiar with you/your game really. My notes have nothing to do with you, beyond re-clarification of my purpose to solidify my opinions. So let's just leave things to that. : )

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Sacac @ Dec. 31 2005,13:34) I understand Threshold. You want to cater to the biggest Muds.

Wrong. But nice try at putting words in my mouth.

I love how you equate fairness with "catering to the biggest MUDs." That just cracks me up.

Originally Posted by (Sacac @ Dec. 31 2005,13:34) However, by getting those smaller muds onto the list and making their users happier, they will vote more and see your mud more.

Why do they need to be made happier? They should already be ecstatic that something like TMS exists that they can use to easily get some attention and players. They pay nothing and they get to be on a list that is visited by thousands of mudders (the majority of them sent here by a handful of the more popular muds). I sure wish TMS had existed back when I was starting Threshold. It would have helped a TON.

Originally Posted by (Sacac @ Dec. 31 2005,13:34) Of course, that also goes the other way, those smaller muds have a better chance of luring your players away

They don't have a better chance, they are just putting a lot less at risk and getting a lot more benefit.

Imagine 2 lists side by side, like Jazuela and others have suggested.

A top 10 mud on one list, sends thousands of people to the site. This is a lot of traffic, and that is also a lot of players they are risking by saying "Hey, go to this site that lists other games."

A top 10 mud on the other list, perhaps sends tens of people to the site. This is not very much traffic. They did not risk much and they did not send a lot of traffic to the site. Traffic is what benefits the site, and traffic is what benefits all muds in the community.

Both muds got the exact same "reward": #1-10 placement and the top spot on a list. They are both listed equally prominently. Is this fair? Not even close.

Of course, you don't care. All you care about is figuring out ANY WAY to get your favorite mud a better listing, so it can benefit unfairly and undeservedly from the traffic sent by other games.

Just be honest, ok?

Stop kidding yourself by trying to paint me and others as people who want preferential treatment for popular games. We aren't asking for anything preferential. We are asking for things to stay the same as they are, which is a fair way to do things. You send traffic, you get listed higher. It is that simple.

What amazes me most of all, is to listen to people **** and moan and attack the very MUDs that are sending them traffic and giving them a CHANCE to get new players from the traffic they send.

It isn't enough that popular muds send the majority of the traffic here. They need to also give up the reward of prominent listing and share that with other muds as well.

It isn't enough that Synozzer creates a site that helps MUDs get publicity and new players, which they did not have before. He has to find ways to artificially boost up less popular (for whatever the reason) muds so they can gain more players from popular muds.

Truly, no good deed goes unpunished.

[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by It isn't enough that popular muds send the majority of the traffic here. They need to also give up the reward of prominent listing and share that with other muds as well.

This is not being 'fair'; it is being self-serving. If this site is oriented towards helping the community out as much as possible, it would be useful to add *any* features to the site that could improve the community as a whole. And the vast majority of MUDs in the community probably would feel greatly aided in a seperation of commercial/non-commercial lists. If most MUDs do not agree with you that the status quo is the best viable option, then it could be assumed that the community as a whole wants to improve itself with the afforementioned change.

I'm currently working on a massive commercial MUD project(granted, trying to avoid things I generally dislike about some of such projects), and I still feel like I would prefer two lists. Again, it would benefit the community as a whole.

[Threshold]

How exactly does it aid the community to alienate and run off the MUD that send the overwhelming majority of the traffic?

That's calling killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Right now, smaller muds have the enormous BOON that is TMS. The popular muds on the list did not have anything like TMS to help them out. Smaller muds have an opportunity to be listed on a site where traffic is sent from tons of MUDs (which means the visitors are self selected to be interested in MUDs).

Since almost EVERY SINGLE player of every MUD tries out other games eventually, this means every small mud has a shot at these players from all of these muds.

But you WILL run off popular games if you continually push for these unfair, communistic ideas like two side by side lists that give equal prominence to games that are not sending traffic.

Why should one mud send thousands of its players here, to earn a placement that another mud can earn by sending a handful of players. That makes no sense.

If you were to get your way, traffic would drop and that benefits nobody. That doesn't help the community at all.

What helps the community is driving as much traffic to a site that provides information on MUDs. That grows the community.

By the way, you seem to only consider "the community" to be small muds. You realize that the majority of the mudding community probably plays about 10-20 muds total, right? So things that benefit the big muds still benefits "the community" of which they are a part.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 02 2006,04:35) And the vast majority of MUDs in the community probably would feel greatly aided in a seperation of commercial/non-commercial lists.

A vast majority of MUDs might want that, but the vast majority of MUDs are also garbage.

How about the vast majority of MUDers? You know, the actual PEOPLE playing the muds and visiting this site?

Take a look at the votes (as they existed when I wrote this post):

[code]
6249 votes, top 10
1573 votes, 11-20
778 votes, 21-30
390 votes, 31-40
280 votes, 41-50
208 votes, 51-60
133 votes, 61-70
102 votes, 71-80
74 votes, 81-90
59 votes, 91-100

Total Votes; 9846

Top 10; 6249 (63.46% of all votes)
Top 20; 7822 (79.44% of all votes)

Bottom 90; 3597 (36.53% of all votes)
Bottom 80; 2024 (20.56% of all votes)
[/quote]

So if you want to talk about majorities, the majority of the traffic comes from the top 10 muds on the list, and the OVERWHELMING majority comes from the top 20 (front page).

Think about that, before you start wondering how the majority of the people who visit the site feel. Think about where the majority of the traffic for this site comes from.

Don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

[DonathinFrye]

I believe that the community is every MUD, as I have stated. The majority of MUDers do not just play commercial MUDs. Infact, there are so many non-commercial MUDs that the statement becomes ridiculous.

And it alienates you not at all to have a seperated list. Your commercial MUD will still land on the front page in the top ten list. Your qualm seems to be that "you didn't have TMS when you were starting out, so smaller MUDs don't deserve it". Again, this is not focused on the community as a whole, but yourself.

Traffic =! Community. The majority of the traffic clicks to vote and then has nothing else to do with the community. The vast majority of MUDs, however, would benefit from two lists on the front page.

I know I'm arguing to deaf ears, but anyone who reads what you are writing can see that you don't care about the community as a whole, and therefor probably should not deem to represent the site's stance or "purpose".

[nass]

wow

All I see this site as is as a traffic exchange - I harbor no illusions of being higher in the list having anything to do with quality. The only thing that it represents is popularity, and popularity is not the same as quality. For example I can think of some dodgy politicians who are popular but they're sure as hell not quality

I also think that this site outweighs its usefulness periodically. Ie once the "votes out" % becomes too low, then I usually stop focussing attention here for a few months and go make a splash elsewhere. Point being that by then most people will have had a look, made their minds up and decided yae or nay to go play the mud I represent. That's why I don't bother buying an icon either, and actually it's quite funny but by not buying one we stand out more than by buying one nowadays

Regarding commercial vs. noncommercial, kinda mixed feelings. Seeing as we're in the middle of many of the commercial boys we've found us getting some of their players and also recently med refugees through here, which is clearly quite nice for us and we'd lose that. But then it cuts both ways, because the muds that build in reminders into their clients all take it a bit too seriously imo, detracting from what really mudding's all about.

Regarding ethical and non-ethical means of getting votes here, well all we have is a sticky on the forums, the "vote for us" button here and there on the website, occasional shouts across globals and some zmud plugin reminder thingie that one of our guys wrote and several other muds now use too apparently. Oh yeah and I did double exp for everyone for a weekend as a thanks to all the players. That's it.

[Crystal]

I have a random related question.

On a MUD I used to IMM for, I would send out a random gecho daily just reminding people to vote if they hadn't yet. There was nothing coded into the game, nor was there any benefit/repercussion from doing so. Would this tie into forced reminders on TMS?

I haven't really read through the rules yet, since I haven't listed my MUD here at all yet.

[Anitra]

Threshold @ Jan. 01 2006,21:35

Originally Posted by If your desire is for TMS to be a more robust site, suggest features to add, or suggest ways to improve the discussion forums. Discussing changes to the vote portion, especially ways that only reduce traffic, is not productive.

Since this thread is about the voting list, I’ll restrict my suggestions to that, for now at least.
So here is a suggestion that I think would really improve the voting list, leaving the discussion about two lists aside for now:

Give each voter a ‘receipt’ that the vote has been accepted/not accepted.

Preferably in the form of a message which, depending on the circumstances, says either
‘Thanks for your vote. It has been added to the listing. ’  or
‘Your vote has not been accepted. You may only vote once per 12-hour period. Please wait XX hours until voting again. ’ (The XX hours naturally being the time remaining until next vote is possible).

I understand that this type of timered message is what the muds on top of the list are using in their games, but it would be great if a similar feature could be added to the list for all users. If it is too hard to code the timer, I’d settle for the accepted/not accepted message.

The reason why I ask this is twofold.
Firstly: I am actually not sure whether my votes register at all. I try to vote every day for my favourite mud, but even if I would be the only player voting for it, (which I don’t believe I am), I don’t see it registering even the number of votes that I’ve put in personally. If I vote once a day for 30 days, the game should get 30 votes a month, right? Well, it seems it doesn’t.

Secondly: I don’t mud with a watch in my hand. So it could be that I sometimes click the vote button after 15 or 11 hours, instead of 13 hours. Or it might even happen sometimes, if I’m lagging on the net, that I click the vote button twice, because the page doesn’t change and I get unsure of whether I actually hit it or not.

I don’t think that I am alone in having these problems. Or perhaps it is just something with my server?

A simple message would serve as a receipt that the vote was accepted and also show that the time restriction in the list actually is working, which would be a deterrent for potential spam voters.
A ‘timered’ message would help preventing excessive voting by mistake, and be a big help to those voters that don’t have their muds provide them with reminders in their prompts.

And here is another suggestion: Change the voting period to once per 24 hours. It would be a lot easier to monitor, since it could be coded to accept a vote any time of day within a given date, and there would be no need for the voters to keep track of the exact hours.

Yes, I do realise that this would reduce the voting ‘traffic’ to the site a bit. But again I have to ask which is the main purpose of the site; to register as many brainless clicks as possible, whether they are legitimate or not, or to make the voting process as easy and fair as possible for everyone that uses it? This would be exactly the same condition for all listed muds, and I believe most voters, even the ones from the big commercial muds, would appreciate it. Nobody really likes to be hassled by their game owners to vote twice a day.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Dec. 31 2005,07:19) So perhaps the sub-quality commercial MUD owners have it right.

Jason, are you truly unable to ever make a post without insulting someone? Seriously, it's really getting old.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ Jan. 02 2006,12:55) Nobody really likes to be hassled by their game owners to vote twice a day.

Let's stop with the loaded words like 'hassled.' We have hundreds of players that have -chosen- to be reminded twice a day. So does Aardwolf. Aardwolf and Achaea are perpetually on top because players -want- to vote for them. For instance, Achaea currently has about 250 players that have completely voluntarily turned on an option to remind them to vote every 12 hours. They can turn it off with a single command at any time, and nobody cares whether they have it on or not.

That's not being hassled. That's providing a service to players that want it because they want the game they play to be ranked highly.
--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 02 2006,08:56) Traffic =! Community. The majority of the traffic clicks to vote and then has nothing else to do with the community. The vast majority of MUDs, however, would benefit from two lists on the front page. I know I'm arguing to deaf ears, but anyone who reads what you are writing can see that you don't care about the community as a whole, and therefor probably should not deem to represent the site's stance or "purpose".

Click-throughs to TMS result in impressions which are saleable to advertisers.

Let me spell out the process for you:
MUDs send traffic to TMS. MUDs get traffic back somewhat in proportion to how much they send. That's simply fair. You get something back in rough proportion to what you pay. Why anyone has a problem with this, I don't know. I can only theorize that some people are so used to a welfare state that the idea of getting something for nothing is second nature to them.

Every time someone clicks through, an impression is generated. Impressions are what keeps the site alive and what makes Synozeer money, since they can be sold to advertisers for banner ads and such. Reducing impressions = reducing advertising dollars, literally costing Synozeer money.

And don't talk to me about representing the mudding community. My organization directly represents more text MUDers than any other aside from Simutronics. No doubt you or someone else will now call me or imply that I am arrogant for pointing out a plain fact, but there you have it.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Jan. 02 2006,14:13) Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Dec. 31 2005,07:19) So perhaps the sub-quality commercial MUD owners have it right. Jason, are you truly unable to ever make a post without insulting someone? Seriously, it's really getting old. --matt And don't talk to me about representing the mudding community. My organization directly represents more text MUDers than any other aside from Simutronics. No doubt you or someone else will now call me or imply that I am arrogant for pointing out a plain fact, but there you have it.

Plenty of the time. That wasn't an insult by the way, it was an observation on my part based on my impression of the vast majority of the commercial MUDs when compared to the best of the MUDding communi