[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by Jealous much? It's good to know that your attitude will prevent you from ever being taken seriously.

I'm not jealous of SimUtronics' success. I even think they have a good product, if too generalized and mob-bashing oriented for my person tastes. I simply think that charging 80 dollars a month, plus additional costs, to be competitive in an online game is extremely over-priced. Yes, people are willing to pay it, obviously - that does not mean, however, that it's anything but overpriced, and sickingly so in my opinion. And probably most of the other people here.

Why should I not be taken seriously? I've achieved a lot, am very resourceful, and offer a community-oriented viewpoint. You are merely over-defensive, not realizing that your defenses of your point of view only make you look more like Vryce, and less like other administration.

I do not like Vryce's MUD or ethics more than anyone else around here. However, I don't consider you much higher up than him - and if you want to ridiculously accuse me of being jealous of money some admins havemade, I'd say you're silly. If I wanted to focus on purely capitalistic gain, it really would not be very difficult. I don't want to, though, however.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 04 2006,22:41) I'm not jealous of SimUtronics' success. I even think they have a good product, if too generalized and mob-bashing oriented for my person tastes. I simply think that charging 80 dollars a month, plus additional costs, to be competitive in an online game is extremely over-priced. Yes, people are willing to pay it, obviously - that does not mean, however, that it's anything but overpriced, and sickingly so in my opinion. And probably most of the other people here. Why should I not be taken seriously?

If someone is willing to pay for it, it's not overpriced. It's worth it to that person at that time, ipso facto.

You won't be taken seriously if you insist on insulting gamers who play games you don't like or who value things you don't like based on nothing more than, "Well, I don't like it."

--matt

[Daedroth]

Well, Logos... I am sooo close to falling into the trap that he just mentioned. So I know that he is right. Im addicted to imperian, but it takes so long to get up to a credit buyers level. A very long time, being years. Its just all too easy to throw 70, or 105 dollars in, just to be able to experience everything thats being dangled in front of you..

There is a person whos rich in rl, in imperian right now that bought so many credits that shes got artifacts up the wazoo, (increase stats, which is impossible in any other way besides certain skills, and do other things) she's got all her skillsets completely mastered, shes got the ability to do almost anything she wants. Heres the clincher, shes still on probation in her guild... just out of novicehood, in other words.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Daedroth @ Jan. 05 2006,01:10) Well, Logos... I am sooo close to falling into the trap that he just mentioned. So I know that he is right. Im addicted to imperian, but it takes so long to get up to a credit buyers level. A very long time, being years. Its just all too easy to throw 70, or 105 dollars in, just to be able to experience everything thats being dangled in front of you..

Well, I mean, it's not a trap anymore than walking into Best Buy and lusting after that big HDTV is. You want it 'cause it's cool.

And sure, it takes a lot more time if you're not going to spend money.

--matt

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ Jan. 04 2006,16:00) Whether you will publically admit it or not, the reason this topic gets discussed a lot is precisely because a lot of people care strongly about what business model they play under.

[rant]

I do not think this is actually true. It seems to me that most of the people discontent with the wording of the definition of the MUDs listed on TMS are game admins who are probably looking for a way to use to their advantage the words free to play while other MUDs they do not believe should yield the title should be prevented from doing so.

Pretending this thread comes on and on month after month because all the people posting are so altruistic and worry so much about the defenseless players, internet-junkies-know-nothing who are going to be ripped off by the big companies, is delirious.

On other note, comparing a pay-per-perks model with the restaurant that is free if your friend pays your bill is the sorriest excuse for an attempt to defend an idea. The two situations not only are not comparable, but the argument itself revolves about the twisting beyond imagination of the meaning of the word free, just to suit the persons need for a stupid-looking example.

Free to play seems to be an accurate description of a model in which you can play for free, not only that, but players from these MUDs are actually able to remain competitive even if they do not spend money, though, of course, they need to put on more time and learn tricks and the game in more depth (which by itself is an advantage for they at least know how to use what they have earned).

100% Free is a good way to describe a game for which everything can be obtained for free, although you are failing to mention that the game admin is paying real-hard cash to keep the game running, but you do not need that information in the front page, because what matters is that it is 100% free, nobody on earth has to pay a penny to anybody.

[/rant]

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 04 2006,21:41) Why should I not be taken seriously? I've achieved a lot, am very resourceful, and offer a community-oriented viewpoint. You are merely over-defensive, not realizing that your defenses of your point of view only make you look more like Vryce, and less like other administration.

[rant]
I have tried a couple of RP and RPI MUDs in the past, I have tried a couple of MUDs about Dragon Ball GT/Z and whatnot, a Shadowrun one, a couple of IRE games and then another 2 besides the one I currently play. None of the above really seemed to be what I really wanted, actually, of the list, the ones I enjoyed the least were the RPI ones.

I remember playing for half and hour a day before frustration crept in, for a whole week, sitting in a "dark cell" in which I could see everything up to the smallest detail, just to be allowed out and be caught by the next guardian or whatever name was after being released.

Now, this clearly, is not your case, as you have previously stated that there is high quality in text-MUDs mainly because of those things that cannot be offered in Graphical games, such as role playing and deep player-player interactions; does this mean I am not part of the MUD community? does this mean that having been coder of a MUD, IMM on a couple, and player of MUDs for 9 years are not enough reasons to be able to qualify into your select community?

Seriously, drop the I am the community banner and try to defend your viewpoints without the use of the majority of the people or other twisted wording like the ones you frequently use to give more weight to your statements. The truth is, H&S games are much simpler, have a smoother learning curve, usually do not require prolonged on-line hours to be enjoyed, and the interaction with other players is semi-optional in many cases. This is why it pleases many people, many more than the niche community that is pleased by more complex, detail-rich games. Neither of the two groups is the community, both and others are part of the MUD community, and pretending to be voicing the opinion of the majority while bashing the games that include the greatest number of players among those listed in this site is not only silly but unrealistic.

[/rant]

[Lanthum]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Jan. 04 2006,03:44) You're comparing a text-based MUD to graphical mmorpgs. The two genres offer very different kinds of games.

Actually - YOU are comparing the advertising techniques of Text-based games and graphical games (and he is just responding to what you are saying).   You aren't really comparing the actual games.

Either way, Both text-based and graphical places:
Are still games.
Are in the entertainment sector.
(In general) Have the same qualities (though they often draw to different customers or the same customer at different times).

Your argument structure - that Text-based games can't use certain words (IE: free) that the graphical games do - is ridiculous.  Many companies from many different markets inside the same sector always use similar words.  It's no different with any other consumer product.

And why is it the companies fault if the consumer doesn't do the research into the product before they try it (and become helplessly hooked such that they can't stop using it ...)?  If I were one of those players you so freely cut down, I wouldn't stand for you saying that I wasn't intelligent because I was "addicted" to a game and couldn't help myself.  And I would loath being told by you that I was stupid and didn't do my own research and find out what a game is all about before becoming addicted to it.

Originally Posted by Again, I'll say it - if you are in the MUDing community to make money and approach it from a purely capitalistic goal, then you're better off working for EverQuest... where *real* money is made. Most MUDers and MUD Admins are in it for the love of the genre and community. I am currently working on a commercial MUD project, but my loyalties still lie with the community as a whole.

You know Donathin Frye ... I agree with Matt on this.  You keep snubbing your nose, thumping your chest, and condescendingly TELLING everyone who is in the commerical section of Text-based games to stop and go join the graphical section ... because text-based games shouldn't be commerical, etc. etc. (I just had to count and I stopped when I counted 4 times in this thread alone ... who knows if there are more)  Like you are an expert on the matter and somehow have the right to tell people your opinion?

Rather ironic that after restating multiple times of your high-and-mighty opinion, that you tell everyone that you are working on a commercial game.  Though I do like how this last time you said it, you put the little caveat in about your loyalties ... so that you could seem better than all the rest.  I guess we should be telling you to leave and go join EverQuest.

The truth is you only have an idea of where the loyalties of the other admins fall, commercial and not.  And it's only your opinion.  Just like the rest of us - we base our opinion on our experience.  It's too bad that with this, as well as the dual list, you see the need to project and force your opinion on others.

[Zhiroc]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Jan. 04 2006,21:44) The #2 ranked player in Aetolia currently has never bought a thing with real money. He's level 100, has 7 maxed out skills, and one more that is a hair away from being maxed out. The other IRE games have similar examples. If you don't want to pay real money, you just have to commit more time to the game. It's a simple time-money trade-off, and it's one that allows you to play for free, forever, as the #2 ranked player on Aetolia has, for instance. --matt

I was wondering about how you could do that, and I finally remembered that there is an in-game market of credits for gold. So yeah, I guess you could grind out what you need by generating gold.

Looking at the credit market it looks like there are a little over 400 available to be sold, at an average price of about 2600 gold per credit. That means it takes about 3/4 of a million gold to buy yourself a maxed skill. It also means that there are not enough credits on the market to max 2 skill areas.

And the ingenious thing about it is that the game gets the cash either way. All advancement past 1000 lessons requires someone to have paid real money... OK, maybe a player can "play for free" by grinding out the gold. But, this only happens because someone actually forked over the cash, and wants to generate gold with it.

It takes about 295 credits to max a skill, which is somewhere around $90 in credits. That's about 6-7 months or more of playing a commercial MMORPG. This amazed me once I figured it out. I was about to spend about the same amount as I would for the commercial MMORPG.

And the last thing I have to say about this is that none of this is spelled out. You have to put it all together yourself from how the mechanics work.

Sorry, but even though I did somewhat like Aetolia, it just sounds... sneaky.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Spoke @ Jan. 05 2006,08:33) 100% Free is a good way to describe a game for which everything can be obtained for free

But it can't - you might be able to obtain it for free, but only by getting another player to pay for you. And if you consider that 100% free, we might as well remove the "pay-to-play" entry entirely, because the same argument could be applied to every commercial mud. Or indeed pretty much else, such as the restaurant analogy that apparently went over your head.

[Hajamin]

Originally Posted by (Zhiroc @ Jan. 05 2006,17:12) I was wondering about how you could do that, and I finally remembered that there is an in-game market of credits for gold. So yeah, I guess you could grind out what you need by generating gold. Looking at the credit market it looks like there are a little over 400 available to be sold, at an average price of about 2600 gold per credit. That means it takes about 3/4 of a million gold to buy yourself a maxed skill. It also means that there are not enough credits on the market to max 2 skill areas. And the ingenious thing about it is that the game gets the cash either way. All advancement past 1000 lessons requires someone to have paid real money... OK, maybe a player can "play for free" by grinding out the gold. But, this only happens because someone actually forked over the cash, and wants to generate gold with it.

Actually there are many other ways, that don't involve anyone buying credits.

Bardic and Artisan contests are held, I'm 99% in all IRE games, every month. They give out large sums of credits for creative work that is game related and placed on the website for all to see. Not only do you get credits if you win, but your work gets posted for the whole world to see on your games website!

Most games have mortal builders, these are players that volenteer some of there time to help build rooms. I know in Lusternia we give them a decent rate per room, my current building project has 3 builders and a total credit value of 2000 credits.

Some, like I know Lusternia, also have mortal coders. While much harder to get, for a few hours a week of volenteering you can get atleast enough for 1 skill a month, up to 2 depending on how well you work.

All games randomly do things such as lotteries, which tickets are bought with gold and sometimes the prizes are large amounts of credits.

In Lusternia we give away artifacts, even some of the most expensive ones, during special events and around RL holidays. Just this last holiday season we probably gave away over 10k credits worth of artifacts and other IG items via a type of scavanger hunt.

Those that apply and are accepted to be a guide, and help new players, get "paid" in credits based on how many hours a week they volenteer. Some of our most active guides I've seen get a few hundred credits a week.

I think you may have just missed some of these other options, though most of them(besides bardic/artisan contests and lottery type things) tend to require that you are a long term player and know the game well.

And there are still other methods, the credit market you mentioned as well as trading credits for services in game with players. Mentors gain credits if their proteges purchase, as do cities and guides of their members purchase. Of course, these methods require that someone had made a purchase, but they are another way for people who don't want to spend money to still get credits.

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Jan. 05 2006,04:43) But it can't - you might be able to obtain it for free, but only by getting another player to pay for you.  And if you consider that 100% free, we might as well remove the "pay-to-play" entry entirely, because the same argument could be applied to every commercial mud.  Or indeed pretty much else, such as the restaurant analogy that apparently went over your head.

You can take it even further... If I host a MUD I pay money to some hosting service. Then if a player plays my game another person pays the bandwidth cost used by them for them. Still that doesn't make the game commercial. It is still "100%" free in the normal way of talking.

If you look at dictionary.com the word "free" isn't clear if it means "free as in freedom to make choices" or "free as in no monetary costs". If you want to say that you don't need to pay money to play a MUD you should probably say that it is gratis.

It is possible I have misunderstood the dictionary, though

Check:
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki...s_versus_Libre

[DonathinFrye]

I've thought about my presence here in this forum some, and will say this to some responses.

Matt, I admittedly allow my lack of trust and my sensitive nerve about what I consider to be condescending statements made by you to other MUDers on forums to get the better of me. I, therefor, do tend to push to the point where I am no less condescending than you, merely on the other political/economic-view spectrum as you. Therefor, I will cut the condescension, though it does not change my opinion of you, Vryce, or a few other such people.

Spoke - your post was something that I read, re-read, and decided I liked parts of. I should not try to claim to be the voice of the whole community - however, this is done, in part, because the loudest and most vocal members of these threads are(largely) the ones that I feel are the most selfish and least helpful to the community. It's something I am willing to drop, again, as most of this forum's most vocal players are loyal to the dominant groups of this particular forum, which happen to be the larger commercial MUDs.

Lanthum begs a little response as well, before I back off a bit from what seems to be an overly sensitive subject(fairness and community, that is).

Originally Posted by You know Donathin Frye ... I agree with Matt on this. You keep snubbing your nose, thumping your chest, and condescendingly TELLING everyone who is in the commerical section of Text-based games to stop and go join the graphical section ... because text-based games shouldn't be commerical, etc. etc. (I just had to count and I stopped when I counted 4 times in this thread alone ... who knows if there are more) Like you are an expert on the matter and somehow have the right to tell people your opinion?

Before I correct you, I'll say that of course I have the right to tell people my opinion. That is what opinion forums are for, silly.

Moving on; I have nothing against commercial MUDs, and as you noted am even working on a commercial project. I am merely an advocate of not forcing non-commercial MUDs to compete with commercial MUDs for voter ranking(hence the concept of having two seperate lists). I am also against commercial systems that advertise themselves misleadingly as something most players would assume to be non-commercial. I am also against commercial systems that give huge game mechanic bonuses to players who put out real money, making it *nearly* impossible to become competitive in such games without devoting many years to working yourselves up to something someone else can buy easily. I find these things unethical. I am not, however, against commercial gaming in the slightest - graphical mmorpgs are, by design, meant to suck money out of the player. They are boxed and mass-produced and given "expansion-packs" for this reason. You come to expect this from them. You should not come to expect this from text-based MUDing, as it is not our origins, nor is it what most MUDs strive for. That is my point.

All points made from here-on-out will specificy that I am not the voice of the entire community, and I will avoid "thumping my chest" at Matt/Vryce/anyone else that I have issues involving their ethics/etc.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Aeran @ Jan. 05 2006,11:24) Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Jan. 05 2006,04:43) But it can't - you might be able to obtain it for free, but only by getting another player to pay for you.  And if you consider that 100% free, we might as well remove the "pay-to-play" entry entirely, because the same argument could be applied to every commercial mud.  Or indeed pretty much else, such as the restaurant analogy that apparently went over your head. You can take it even further... If I host a MUD I pay money to some hosting service.

I'm talking about costs for the players though. The players (as a whole) have to pay money in order to be competitive. The fact that some of them will pay for others does not, in my opinion, make the game free.

To apply the same logic to your example, we'd be talking about a mud hosting service that advertised its hosting as "100% free" - but then you realised that in order to have sufficient resources to run your mud for more than a couple of players, you'd need to either pay the hosting provider, or get the admin of another mud to pay it for you (perhaps in exchange for doing coding or building work on their mud).

I recall a situation a bit like that in the past, actually. A mud hosting provider gave a "free" hosting connection to a mud run by someone I knew, in return for sending traffic to their site. After the mud had gone through all the trouble of setting everything up (including shipping a computer over to act as their dedicated server) the provider stated that unless they sent at least a million hits per month, they'd have to pay. Such traffic was simply not possible for the mud in question, which left them in a rather awkward situation.

[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by I recall a situation a bit like that in the past, actually. A mud hosting provider gave a "free" hosting connection to a mud run by someone I knew, in return for sending traffic to their site. After the mud had gone through all the trouble of setting everything up (including shipping a computer over to act as their dedicated server) the provider stated that unless they sent at least a million hits per month, they'd have to pay. Such traffic was simply not possible for the mud in question, which left them in a rather awkward situation.

... bastards. : p

[Valg]

In another thread, I attempted to price "sweat equity" in MUDs, and never got a straight answer from IRE.  The number I was looking for was the conversion rate from money to time.

In other words, Hajamin toes the IRE party line and mentions that you can always write areas, essays, helpfiles, and such for credits.  In some of those areas, you're essentially working for the company-- you put in X hours of work, and they pay you.  The question is, is it worth it?

I was able to grab some numbers from another game that's much more open about how they reimburse.  In that game, if I wanted 3 in-game currency units, I could either do work that would take about an hour, or I could pay around $2.

Now, the heart of the pay-for-perks model is forcing people into that decision.  IRE has described their game as a place where "3/4 of our sales are driven by PvP".  So, let's say I want to compete with Daedroth's character, the dirty fiend.  (Could be a fight, but really could be anything credits can effect.)  He knows I'm coming, so he drops $20 on enhancing a key skill.  That's a pretty modest amount of money as an isolated incident.

Now, I have the following options:
1) Compete at a disadvantage.
2) Drop $20 just like Daedroth did.
3) Spend 10 full hours cranking out essays, area work, etc.
4) Decline to compete and find poorer targets.

10 hours?  That might be my gaming time for a week.  The real choices are #1, #2, and #4.  And if Daedroth spends more than $20, #1 becomes increasingly impossible.  (If all that money didn't buy him victory, why would he spend it?)

It's an arms race.  I can't beat Daedroth unless I spend like he does, or invest an unreasonable quantity of time.  The system is designed to create this result.  Pay, or be a second-class citizen.

And that's the difference between pay-for-perks and the other models (flat fee, or free).  It's a tilted playing field and always will be. Some people like that sort of thing, and all we're asking for is some honest labeling of it.