Tavern of the Blue Hand

DonathinFrye · 03-23-2006, 05:20 AM

This entire subject is silly and not progressive - the subject name alone probably keeps Syno(the only real person here who has the ability to make Matt act accountable for his attitude/actions/manipulations) look right past this thread and at other threads.

I'm sure the campaign to make all MUDs and MUD resource sites be accountable for their affect on the community will continue. As a favorite graphic novel of mine constantly reflects, "With great Power comes great Responsibility." Large, innovative, influential MUDs should throw their weight to make themselves role-models for the entire community. All Matt's attitude and IRE's approach(besides Lusternia, which takes responsibility for what it is enough in my opinion) shows the community is that underhanded manipulation, public derisiveness, egocentricism, and greed are good ways to create a successful MUD. IRE's not alone in this, granted, several other MUDs(such as Midievia) also support this observation.

Personally, having done just about everything one can do in this community within the past 14 years, I find Valg/Carrion Fields and Kavir/GodwarsII to be a far better role models - showing the community that underdogs can not only compete and out-innovate commercial MUDs, but can also act progressively and ethically within the community, without backing down from bullies.

nhl · 03-23-2006, 09:15 AM

I fully agree that this subject is silly and not progressive. While I agree with Matt on some of his points, I really don't see the need to start this topic (I guess some people get a kick out of flame threads).

But that aside, I have also been meddling in the world of MUDs for the past 14 years or so. It's disappointing to see that while the world of commercial graphical MMORPG's have progressed tremendously, the world of MUDs hasn't. There's many reasons for this, but one of them is the constant infighting among MUD admins and activists. If you guys would spend as much time and effort on actually developing the games, as you do on flaming Iron Realms, maybe you'd have a chance to compete with them.

Claiming that Iron Realms is blackmailing the owners of TMS or Mudconnector is in my view silly. Should Iron Realms withdraw their financial support over something as petty as a "pay for perks" flag in a mudlisting, I'm sure other MUDs (us included) would be willing to fill that gap. Not all MUDs have the financial means of Iron Realms, but with a small cooperation some of us would have. And not all of the bigger MUDs are opposed to a "pay for perks" flag.

As for the definition of competing with commercial MUDs, I guess that depends on your definition of competition. Is it tied to the playercount? The amount of time spent per player?

Large, innovative MUDs should definetly try to be rolemodels, but we also need to be a bit realistic here. Very few games operate for free, and most admins do not want to carry all expenses of their game after the N:th year of operation. Not to mention that to really become a large MUD, unless you have horribly good existing ties, you need something of a marketing budget.

Finally: just looking at the quality of the posts here on TMS, I find it very hard to see any here as a decent rolemodel for the MUD community. The decent rolemodel for the MUD community is one who spends his time making good games, not one who feels it's his duty in life to flame other admins.

Regards,
Gore (admin of BatMUD)

lovechiefs · 03-23-2006, 10:28 AM

I agree with nhl.
Stop infighting and help the muds compete with the graphics MMORPGs

DonathinFrye · 03-23-2006, 11:05 AM

I think it is just that I wish you could see the difference between some's "flaming" and others' activating. I am fair - period. I am not flaming IRE, or being unfair to it in any way whatsoever. Infact, Matt does plenty of flaming to MUDs he deems less successful, and that is the primary reason why I speak out at all.

Some of us do put our energies towards developing innovative games and simultaneously being vocal role-models in the community. Some of us work co-operatively with other MUDs in the community, and want nothing more than the community to be as helpful as it can be. Those of us that do, also are the ones that tend to not like the negative affect MUDs like Midievia and Achaea(or specifically, Matt/IRE) have on the community without giving back in return.

It is important for you, the poster, to understand the difference between a true "flame" and something that has more positive intentions. It's very possible that you are players of IRE, though, and will defend your games no matter what I write here - which, while understandable/acceptable, does make it difficult for us to make any real headway.

nhl · 03-23-2006, 12:05 PM

I'm not daft enough not to see a difference between a flame and a regular conversation. I questioned the motives why this thread was even started. Nonetheless, some of you really have swallowed the bait.

I have no affiliation with IRE whatsoever - I don't play their games. I still think it's silly that you have spent years fighting over their definition of free. It's true that all MUDs like to advertise being free (it's an advantage compared to games which force you to pay a monthly fee), but let's face it - the world has changed since the 1990s. The "de facto" standard meaning of "free" seems to be that it's limited in scope, or has a catch. "Free cell phone with 36 month subscription", "Free email (if you watch our ads)", you name it...

As Matt has pointed out, the FTC agrees with the usage of "free" as in allowing someone to play (free of charge) even if there is a commercial revenue model behind it (pay for advantages). It may be misleading and understandably somewhat annoying for MUDs in which the admins pay everything out of their own pockets, but it's legal and accepted nonetheless. Except on this forum...

Gore (admin of BatMUD)

DonathinFrye · 03-23-2006, 12:23 PM

It is accepted - we just want this resource site to have a means for the user/MUD-seeker to be able to differentiate between MUDs that have no hidden charges, and MUDs that do.

Just because the rest of the world has begun to grey the lines between commercial/free, does not mean that we cannot(at least on some level, on a resource site) expect more from our own community.

Valg · 03-23-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (nhl @ Mar. 23 2006,12:05)

As Matt has pointed out, the FTC agrees with the usage of "free" as in allowing someone to play (free of charge) even if there is a commercial revenue model behind it (pay for advantages). It may be misleading and understandably somewhat annoying for MUDs in which the admins pay everything out of their own pockets, but it's legal and accepted nonetheless.

I don't think anyone is asking IRE to change their advertising. People are asking Synozeer/TMS to label games as "Free", "May-Pay-for-Perks", or "Pay-To-Play" vis-a-vis the current system of only "Free" or "Pay-to-Play".

The issue is not about what one can legally get away with, but instead about how this site should function as a MUD resource.

gth · 03-23-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Valg @ Mar. 24 2006,06:37)

5-->

Quote:

Originally Posted by (nhl @ Mar. 23 2006,12[img

http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]5)]As Matt has pointed out, the FTC agrees with the usage of "free" as in allowing someone to play (free of charge) even if there is a commercial revenue model behind it (pay for advantages). It may be misleading and understandably somewhat annoying for MUDs in which the admins pay everything out of their own pockets, but it's legal and accepted nonetheless.

I don't think anyone is asking IRE to change their advertising. People are asking Synozeer/TMS to label games as "Free", "May-Pay-for-Perks", or "Pay-To-Play" vis-a-vis the current system of only "Free" or "Pay-to-Play".

The issue is not about what one can legally get away with, but instead about how this site should function as a MUD resource.

It's downright unfair that a MUD that works damn hard and doesn't have ANY income of ANY kind - gets lumped into the same category as those who not only accept donations and sell paraphenalia, but also gain income from payments for in-game benefits. That's just a bit too 'different' than the splitting hairs rubbish that the_logos and his ilk defend their stance with.

Debate the marginal differences between the various income-MUD models later - you can mark the 100% FREE muds as exactly that right now without a single ounce of confusion.

nhl · 03-23-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

I don't think anyone is asking IRE to change their advertising. People are asking Synozeer/TMS to label games as "Free", "May-Pay-for-Perks", or "Pay-To-Play" vis-a-vis the current system of only "Free" or "Pay-to-Play".

So flame (or even better, ask nicely) the owner of this site and mudconnector to add such a feature. Seems to me like you are flaming the wrong person here.

Yes yes, I read the argument about how Matt uses their financial power to "manipulate the policies". And I already countered that especially for mudconnector, should they lose Iron Realms due to them changing the policy to include a "pay for perks" option, that there will be other MUDs (including BatMUD) that will sponsor it instead.

On a technical detail, it shouldn't be too hard for either site to have both a "Free to play" (versus "Fee-based subscription") and a "Non-commercial (versus "Pay for perks") flag for the mud entries, to avoid this ambiguous interpretation of the term.

Flaming Matt or Iron Realms for TMS or Mudconnector lacking a feature is about as pointless as flaming him over a feature that your MUD lacks.

Regards,
Gore (admin of BatMUD)

DonathinFrye · 03-23-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

So flame (or even better, ask nicely) the owner of this site and mudconnector to add such a feature. Seems to me like you are flaming the wrong person here.

Yes yes, I read the argument about how Matt uses their financial power to "manipulate the policies". And I already countered that especially for mudconnector, should they lose Iron Realms due to them changing the policy to include a "pay for perks" option, that there will be other MUDs (including BatMUD) that will sponsor it instead.

Flaming Matt or Iron Realms for TMS or Mudconnector lacking a feature is about as pointless as flaming him over a feature that your MUD lacks.

Regards,
Gore (admin of BatMUD)

We aren't flaming Matt, and will not flame Syno - your definition of what flaming is seems askew. Also, we aren't specifically attempting to instigate change on Mudconnector on this, the TMS forum. We're attempting to incite TMS to change. The truth is that TMS' advertising depends very heavily on IRE currently, and Matt has already shown himself willing to threaten pulling advertising if he doesn't get his way.

None of this means, however, that we will stop our reasonable and dedicated attempts to educate forum readers on these matters, and to request that Syno add extra listing features. It has nothing to do with flaming Matt, Syno, or anyone else. At least not for myself and I suspect, most key others.

nhl · 03-23-2006, 04:54 PM

Go back a few pages, and then tell me there was no flaming. I'll quote a few lines from a post from prof1515:

Quote:

Originally Posted by

You a) don't have the English comprehension skills necessary, b) are off pretending you're running your little "business" instead of actually sitting in front of your computer wetting your pants and whining, and c) can't see the screen what with your head so far up your ass.
You're really pathetic. How you can honestly think you're a professional is beyond reason. Now run along back to your own little VIAGRA MUD forums, play-pretend you're a "businessman", and have someone change your diaper before you wet it again. Wait! Probably too late for that.

I don't know about you, but in my book that is definitely not a "reasonable attempt to educate forum readers" or a plea to TMS.

I can't speak for TMS' advertising, and without seeing some click-through figures, I can't comment on how worthwhile it would be for any other MUD to offer similar sponsorship agreements as IRE does. I can say, that for "that other service", there are MUDs willing to compensate the loss of revenue, if it is only because someone is throwing a tantrum over a simple policychange.

Traveler · 03-23-2006, 05:10 PM

While I do not necessarily agree with Prof's tactics, he has stated he was merely responding in kind to Matt's own immature antics. Not exactly the way I would try to get my point across but . . .

DonathinFrye · 03-23-2006, 05:32 PM

I also do not agree with Prof's tactics, and he has said on numerous occaisons that he speaks for himself. You cannot lump anyone who takes a stand against the status quo into one category.

prof1515 · 03-23-2006, 06:08 PM

I learned a long time ago that you can't convince most people of anything. They have to get screwed personally before they'll even consider your words, and by then it's usually too late. I'll try once, then wash my hands of it. That's not to say if they ask for help later, I wouldn't help them, it's just that after a while, you realize when you're talking to a wall because the wall's not listening.

As for my response to Matt, take a look a little further back in that discussion. You'll note that I made an offer to TMS that if ad money was pulled, I'd pick up the difference so as to remove any consideration of dollars from the issue (as has been speculated before as a possible reason why policy might not change). Matt's response was accusations of bribery and attempts to twist my words.

As for flames, the first flame in this entire discussion was posted in the first sentence of the the first post. And we know who posted it. I have repeatedly said he will receive in equal or greater doses to that which he dishes out. If he thinks flaming other people and MUDs on this site is fun, we'll see how he likes it.

Take care,

Jason

GuruPlayer · 03-23-2006, 08:09 PM

When the_logos posted this thread, I referred to it as a "bait thread" on his other "payment method" thread. He denied it, & lo & behold, 11 pages of worthless crapola posted by both anti & pro IRE folks have followed...

Not a bait thread, huh, the_logos...

Congrats folks, you have succeeded in taking the bait & giving the IRE muds a lot of free advertising.

prof1515, take a chill pill, you & the_logos have sparred for months on this site, & the only thing you have proved is that you & the_logos are both full of hot air. (I had to resist using the words I'm really thinking)

prof1515 · 03-23-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ Mar. 23 2006,20:09)

....the only thing you have proved is that you & the_logos are both full of hot air.

I'm not setting out to prove anything.

Ilkidarios · 03-23-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ Mar. 23 2006,20:09)

Congrats folks, you have succeeded in taking the bait & giving the IRE muds a lot of free advertising.

Now see, this tactic never works. Most everyone on this forum tries to use this tactic at one point or another, especially Matt, but in reality, there's no advertising to be gotten from this forum. If anything, the controversy advertises the forum, not the game.

the_logos · 03-24-2006, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ Mar. 23 2006,12:23)

Just because the rest of the world has begun to grey the lines between commercial/free, does not mean that we cannot(at least on some level, on a resource site) expect more from our own community.

You are presenting a false dichotomy. Commercial and free are unrelated. I am watching CBS on broadcast right now, for free, and it is absolutely commercial.

--matt

03-23-2006, 05:20 AM	#91
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: On Tour in America Home MUD: Clandestine MUD Posts: 348	This entire subject is silly and not progressive - the subject name alone probably keeps Syno(the only real person here who has the ability to make Matt act accountable for his attitude/actions/manipulations) look right past this thread and at other threads. I'm sure the campaign to make all MUDs and MUD resource sites be accountable for their affect on the community will continue. As a favorite graphic novel of mine constantly reflects, "With great Power comes great Responsibility." Large, innovative, influential MUDs should throw their weight to make themselves role-models for the entire community. All Matt's attitude and IRE's approach(besides Lusternia, which takes responsibility for what it is enough in my opinion) shows the community is that underhanded manipulation, public derisiveness, egocentricism, and greed are good ways to create a successful MUD. IRE's not alone in this, granted, several other MUDs(such as Midievia) also support this observation. Personally, having done just about everything one can do in this community within the past 14 years, I find Valg/Carrion Fields and Kavir/GodwarsII to be a far better role models - showing the community that underdogs can not only compete and out-innovate commercial MUDs, but can also act progressively and ethically within the community, without backing down from bullies.

03-23-2006, 09:15 AM	#92
nhl Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 37	I fully agree that this subject is silly and not progressive. While I agree with Matt on some of his points, I really don't see the need to start this topic (I guess some people get a kick out of flame threads). But that aside, I have also been meddling in the world of MUDs for the past 14 years or so. It's disappointing to see that while the world of commercial graphical MMORPG's have progressed tremendously, the world of MUDs hasn't. There's many reasons for this, but one of them is the constant infighting among MUD admins and activists. If you guys would spend as much time and effort on actually developing the games, as you do on flaming Iron Realms, maybe you'd have a chance to compete with them. Claiming that Iron Realms is blackmailing the owners of TMS or Mudconnector is in my view silly. Should Iron Realms withdraw their financial support over something as petty as a "pay for perks" flag in a mudlisting, I'm sure other MUDs (us included) would be willing to fill that gap. Not all MUDs have the financial means of Iron Realms, but with a small cooperation some of us would have. And not all of the bigger MUDs are opposed to a "pay for perks" flag. As for the definition of competing with commercial MUDs, I guess that depends on your definition of competition. Is it tied to the playercount? The amount of time spent per player? Large, innovative MUDs should definetly try to be rolemodels, but we also need to be a bit realistic here. Very few games operate for free, and most admins do not want to carry all expenses of their game after the N:th year of operation. Not to mention that to really become a large MUD, unless you have horribly good existing ties, you need something of a marketing budget. Finally: just looking at the quality of the posts here on TMS, I find it very hard to see any here as a decent rolemodel for the MUD community. The decent rolemodel for the MUD community is one who spends his time making good games, not one who feels it's his duty in life to flame other admins. Regards, Gore (admin of BatMUD)

03-23-2006, 10:28 AM	#93
lovechiefs Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 67	I agree with nhl. Stop infighting and help the muds compete with the graphics MMORPGs

03-23-2006, 11:05 AM	#94
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: On Tour in America Home MUD: Clandestine MUD Posts: 348	I think it is just that I wish you could see the difference between some's "flaming" and others' activating. I am fair - period. I am not flaming IRE, or being unfair to it in any way whatsoever. Infact, Matt does plenty of flaming to MUDs he deems less successful, and that is the primary reason why I speak out at all. Some of us do put our energies towards developing innovative games and simultaneously being vocal role-models in the community. Some of us work co-operatively with other MUDs in the community, and want nothing more than the community to be as helpful as it can be. Those of us that do, also are the ones that tend to not like the negative affect MUDs like Midievia and Achaea(or specifically, Matt/IRE) have on the community without giving back in return. It is important for you, the poster, to understand the difference between a true "flame" and something that has more positive intentions. It's very possible that you are players of IRE, though, and will defend your games no matter what I write here - which, while understandable/acceptable, does make it difficult for us to make any real headway.

03-23-2006, 12:05 PM	#95
nhl Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 37	I'm not daft enough not to see a difference between a flame and a regular conversation. I questioned the motives why this thread was even started. Nonetheless, some of you really have swallowed the bait. I have no affiliation with IRE whatsoever - I don't play their games. I still think it's silly that you have spent years fighting over their definition of free. It's true that all MUDs like to advertise being free (it's an advantage compared to games which force you to pay a monthly fee), but let's face it - the world has changed since the 1990s. The "de facto" standard meaning of "free" seems to be that it's limited in scope, or has a catch. "Free cell phone with 36 month subscription", "Free email (if you watch our ads)", you name it... As Matt has pointed out, the FTC agrees with the usage of "free" as in allowing someone to play (free of charge) even if there is a commercial revenue model behind it (pay for advantages). It may be misleading and understandably somewhat annoying for MUDs in which the admins pay everything out of their own pockets, but it's legal and accepted nonetheless. Except on this forum... Gore (admin of BatMUD)

03-23-2006, 12:23 PM	#96
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: On Tour in America Home MUD: Clandestine MUD Posts: 348	It is accepted - we just want this resource site to have a means for the user/MUD-seeker to be able to differentiate between MUDs that have no hidden charges, and MUDs that do. Just because the rest of the world has begun to grey the lines between commercial/free, does not mean that we cannot(at least on some level, on a resource site) expect more from our own community.

03-23-2006, 05:10 PM	#102
Traveler Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 50	While I do not necessarily agree with Prof's tactics, he has stated he was merely responding in kind to Matt's own immature antics. Not exactly the way I would try to get my point across but . . .

03-23-2006, 05:32 PM	#103
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: On Tour in America Home MUD: Clandestine MUD Posts: 348	I also do not agree with Prof's tactics, and he has said on numerous occaisons that he speaks for himself. You cannot lump anyone who takes a stand against the status quo into one category.

03-23-2006, 06:08 PM	#104
prof1515 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 493	I learned a long time ago that you can't convince most people of anything. They have to get screwed personally before they'll even consider your words, and by then it's usually too late. I'll try once, then wash my hands of it. That's not to say if they ask for help later, I wouldn't help them, it's just that after a while, you realize when you're talking to a wall because the wall's not listening. As for my response to Matt, take a look a little further back in that discussion. You'll note that I made an offer to TMS that if ad money was pulled, I'd pick up the difference so as to remove any consideration of dollars from the issue (as has been speculated before as a possible reason why policy might not change). Matt's response was accusations of bribery and attempts to twist my words. As for flames, the first flame in this entire discussion was posted in the first sentence of the the first post. And we know who posted it. I have repeatedly said he will receive in equal or greater doses to that which he dishes out. If he thinks flaming other people and MUDs on this site is fun, we'll see how he likes it. Take care, Jason

03-23-2006, 08:09 PM	#105
GuruPlayer Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 73	When the_logos posted this thread, I referred to it as a "bait thread" on his other "payment method" thread. He denied it, & lo & behold, 11 pages of worthless crapola posted by both anti & pro IRE folks have followed... Not a bait thread, huh, the_logos... Congrats folks, you have succeeded in taking the bait & giving the IRE muds a lot of free advertising. prof1515, take a chill pill, you & the_logos have sparred for months on this site, & the only thing you have proved is that you & the_logos are both full of hot air. (I had to resist using the words I'm really thinking)

Tavern of the Blue Hand

Iron Realms sucks!