[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (gth @ May 10 2005,18:58) I only hope he's actually read the threads of the many who oppose what has been done, rather than simply ignore them as expected outcries of the few.

But here's the thing, and I mean this with all due respect: Those making the outcry ARE the few. Look at the amount of traffic the site gets, and look at how many people have bothered posting their outrage. 10 or 15 people maybe, some of whom are the same ones who have been on this crusade fora decade? Achaea alone sends a couple hundred TMS users here every day, as does Aardwolf.

--matt

[Delerak]

Bah, so what logos, and the scottish lost to the english why?

[Sinuhe]

tle_logos, Posted on May 11 2005,000

Originally Posted by Member Group: Members Posts: 961 Joined: Sep. 2002  Posted: May 11 2005,000     -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote (KaVir @ May 10 2005,183) This coming from the person who outstayed his welcome years ago - do you honestly think you'd be tolerated here if it wasn't for the advertising money? Don't forget contributes the most traffic of anyone to the site! =) --matt

And don't forget how most of that traffic is just a bunch of brainless sockpuppets clicking the vote button because they are urged to do so by the mudowner, and who never yet have contributed anything of value to the boards or articles page.

And don't forget who contributes the most flame threads and spam of anyone to the site.

And don't forget who insulted the most people on the list, either personally or by sweeping generalisations.

And don't forget who contributes the most meaningless posts, just to keep a promotion thread on the top ten as long as possible, either directly, or through an army of sockpuppets like Hardestadt and Kopribear and others.

And don't forget who never contibuted one single article to the site, or for that matter anything that wasn't done with the main intent of promoting his own mud.

And don't forget who starts all those cute threads asking other posters to donate money to some more or less serious scheme, like sueing Medievia.

And by all means, don't forget who pays for the most banners. Could there be a connection somewhere? (Interesting conspiracy theory. I am expecting one of those swift and 'witty' *warning: sarcasm!* replies from Hardestadt to this one).

[Valg]

Originally Posted by the_logos: But here's the thing, and I mean this with all due respect: Those making the outcry ARE the few. Look at the amount of traffic the site gets, and look at how many people have bothered posting their outrage. 10 or 15 people maybe, some of whom are the same ones who have been on this crusade fora decade?

Conversely, the people expressing support for Medievia are fewer, and all affiliated with IRE or Medievia itself. Hardestadt and others have never expressed a significant dissenting opinion to yours, Matt- I suspect they'd hear about it internally if they did. Team IRE is essentially one poster, plus a Kopribear.

The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision. And a number of them are longtime contributors to the site who provide the kind of content that helps draw regular readers such as myself. The future absence of Molly and others gives me less reason to stop, read, and discuss here.

[Ilkidarios]

Originally Posted by (Sinuhe @ May 11 2005,06:33) an army of sockpuppets like Hardestadt and Kopribear and others.

I believe that the term "sock puppet" is politically incorrect. We wouldn't want to offend Mr. Mihaly. The proper term is "free-will challenged" or "post monkey". Also "zombie" would work too, had it not been changed to "living-challenged flesh being".

I had declined to comment thus far assuming that this, as always, would just end in a mindless bash. It obviously has, but I still couldn't stop myself from "beating a dead horse", it just needed to be said.

Let us get some facts straight before we start:

1] Unless Medievia have changed their code, I am NOT a supporter. I'm unsure where my opinion would lie if they have decided to replace their code as AFAIK the case law is nil on the subject. Even the link from Kavir about IP states that.

2] I am not a player of any games of the_logos, nor do I know Mr. Mihaly in any way other than his posts in this and other various forums.

3] I have been around the mudding community for quite a while, and this community in particular for longer than is apparent.

4] I agree with Kavir on quite a few things he says, though I disagree with his actions of late, on these forums. This is actually though symptomatic of a bigger problem in the mud community. This appears to happen over time to anybody who deals with the mud community for a long time.

"Those expressing [opinion] are [more/less]..."
-------------
This argument has been used on both sides of the table, using an appeal to popularity to gain respect for your cause proves nothing, and contributes nothing to the discussion.

"The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision."

Also due to the amount of emotion fired into attacking anyone with a viewpoint that differs from the political norm of these boards, many people (myself included) decide not to post in order to avoid a barrage of attacks, so I would have to say in this argument the sample of people is unrepresentative of the whole.

"[the_logos/kavir] is...."
-------------
For people whom i've seen, many times, call "LOGICAL FALLACY!" on each other I am amazed at the amount of personal attacks that go into each response, or the amount of logical fallacies that get thrown around. Yes, in debates where you are not searching for truth or proving a truth the art of sneaking in a fallacy works. With topics like this, it should not.

There is a reason that people don't "stop, read, contribute" here anymore. In my opinion, I would hasten to believe that it was because of the hostile atmosphere, and lack of signal.

"All the arguments are caused by the_logos!? Burn him!"
--------------
This is obviously not true, as evinced from this thread itself. [code] 1.Matt said he was immensely glad that synozeer wasn't singling out a mud
2.Kavir replied about blatant IP theft with his slippery pedophilia comment.
3.Kopri stated that it would appear to others that Kavir was blowing things out of proportion.
4.Matt replied, stating everyone knows his opinion, then saying that if he didn't like Synozeer's ruling he didn't have to stay. *
5.Kavir attacked Matt saying he was unwelcome and only was allowed around due to paying Synozeer.[/quote]
--------------
Anyone that attempts to argue a side that contrasts Kavir, and continues to do so is personally attacked, then everyone who feels froggy leaps into mindless "Me too." attacks. If the people here don't see this as detrimental then there is a large problem, though it seems from other posts that people realize it IS a detriment but can't force themselves not to attack "The next victim".

I saw really good arguments over the past couple of months ruined by attacking the person. Changing the subject and calling people mindless isn't an effective argument tool, but it has become one in these forums.

How has it become one?

People are unwilling to waste there time posting if their point is ignored in lieu of a "considering you apparently don't have any opinions of your own?"! This is an amazing hypocrisy, considering the majority of people on the anti-Med side of the argument have posted little to nothing of substance, which isn't saying opposite sides have posted substance. [NOTE: This is still in regards to THESE FORUMS, I am quite aware of everything Anti-Med]

Also the people on this board attempt to take a "For us - Or against us" stance. Anyone who disagrees with a statement is "Anti"-their issue, or "Pro"-their antagonist. This is obviously not logical and just another symptom of the society that has formed on these forums. Which is one thing I do agree with Matt on: his post about how dissenting opinions are treated in these forums.

In fact, alot of what I have seen has been attacks on the_logos, "You are mindless", attacks on people as parents, and comments about harming families. Even comparing Matt to Derek Smart, which shows a lack of knowledge. (all of these can be found in the last months threads)

I'm not asking you to attempt to coerce me with posts that "Prove Matt is the devil!#!!", i've seen him in action sometimes. Though other times it appears paranoia sets in and other people imagine things. Discounting someone because their opinion differs from yours on a regular basis is foolishness.

[In my own personal opinion, and with no relevance on this letter, I believe the FanBoy/Jerk apply just as much to Kavir and most others on -these forums-.]

"IRE is immoral"/"Code theft"
-------------
I don't know where this argument came in. I believe this was mainly due to people jumping in a conversation to "Me too" it, without double-checking their facts. IRE is well respected and as far as I know has done nothing immoral or illegal, regardless of an individuals personal opinion.

(Note: Subjectively this could be argued, some people tend to equate taking money for a service that they think should be free as immoral.)

Yui Unifex
-------------
I have seen some of the best retorts/arguments/statements/assertions come from this persons mouth, although instead of building fortresses of these stones that are put forth by Yui, they are only smashed down by "Shut up, dummy" statements. This is not saying that Yui supports me or my opinions, I just respect Yui.

Anyways, I had more to post but i've decided to take my kids to the beach instead.

Kaylus

[Hardestadt]

My estimated time to someone calling kaylus a sockpuppet or a lapdog or a dummy account, despite all the contrary evidence: 8 posts.

I'm glad to see someone independant say what I've been saying for a while: That no matter what Matt does, the same people will choose to condemn him for it. Some people that have been on the bandwagon in the past, and now have dared actually support him in something.. get called lapdogs.

Some of the things I've seen posted have been utterly deranged, such as people flaming Matt when he announced that a portion of the proceeds from IRE would be going to charity. To me, the people complaining that Matt is killing these boards are the ones who are ultimately doing all the harm - as it is they who derail 90% of the threads after there is some sort of IRE involvement.

Can't we all just get along, and focus on actual development topics instead of this sordid soap opera?

-H

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ June 03 2005,21:02) Can't we all just get along, and focus on actual development topics instead of this sordid soap opera?

Not if you keep dropping flame-bait into the thread, no.

[Hardestadt]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ June 04 2005,05:05) 2--> Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ June 03 2005,21[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]2)]Can't we all just get along, and focus on actual development topics instead of this sordid soap opera? Not if you keep dropping flame-bait into the thread, no.

Such as mentioning Achaea or Matt Mihaly, right?

-H

[GuruPlayer]

All you anti-flamers that heep b*tchin', are keeping these flames alive!  This was a dead thread until Kaylus decided to add his two cents. QUIT EFFIN' POSTING & the threads you hate will die!

[Sinuhe]

Hardestadt wrote; June 03 2005,152

Originally Posted by To me, the people complaining that Matt is killing these boards are the ones who are ultimately doing all the harm - as it is they who derail 90% of the threads after there is some sort of IRE involvement. Can't we all just get along, and focus on actual development topics instead of this sordid soap opera?

The funny thing about that statement is the following:

There is a new Mud Discussion Forum called Mudlab.org, which was started by a group of long-time posters from TMS, in protest of what it has turned into. All the people that you are blaming for the decline of TMS are active members of that forum, some of them even as moderators. Almost all the members there are former members of TMS. Some of them left here for good, publicly or silently, others seem to still follow the threads here somewhat, albeit not very actively. Most of the valid discussions seem to have moved over to the new site.

Despite the fact that this new site has been open for less than a month, it is already a very lively discussion forum, with over 70 members and more than 80 different threads, most of them active (over 800 individual posts). It is an open forum, not reserved for some chosen group of mud owners. Anyone can sign up as a member or just follow the discussions without taking part. It is not reserved for hobbyist Mud developers, although those seem to be in majority, possibly because blatant advertisements are not welcome there.

And here comes the punch line: Although the discussions there are very lively, the same people that you accuse of killing the TMS boards are treating each other in a mature and respectful way there, even when they disagree. Opinions often clash, but that is after all what discussion forums are meant for.

There is no advertisement spam, no fluff, no flame bait (with one single exception so far, which was nipped in its bud). There is also no flashing banners, no ‘ranking lists’ and no ‘reviews’, in short very little ‘line noise’. It is just a place where a pretty large number of mud-related people come to share and discuss mud-related problems, rather like what TMS used to be in the good old days, before its decline.

As you can see from the member lists, most of the posters there are people that once used to be very active here. (Or perhaps that was before your time, many of them started to fade out years ago, when the decline started). I see that your name is on the member list there too, so unless you are totally blind or biased, you must also have noted the differences. Did you ever ask yourself why these differences exist? Basically the same boards, basically the same members… almost.

How many ‘actual development topics’ have you seen on TMS lately?

Just some food for thought-

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by It is an open forum, not reserved for some chosen group of mud owners. Anyone can sign up as a member or just follow the discussions without taking part.

I have to disagree with that.  I signed up to become a member and was accepted.  I perused the site and read the threads.  Then, I found and read a multi-paged thread on god management heirachies, and I gave my input as a knowledgable upper-level admin on a pretty large game.  I thought my post was well-written and explained very well how Medievia's management-scheme is run and managed.  I assume the reference to flame-bait was my post.  However, It was not my intention in the least to become flame-bait.  I was merely contributing.

Within a day I was banned from the forum.  Not from just posting, but from reading it also.  I understand that there were a few posts following mine that were removed, but I never got to see them, so I cannot speak to the content.

I absolutely understand everyone's stance about Medievia.  However, we are a successful game with lots of years and experience under our belts.  We may know what we're talking about when it comes to some things.  

I do not understand how they can advertise that they are allowing anyone to sign up and participate when that is just not true.

[eiz]

Originally Posted by I do not understand how they can advertise that they are allowing anyone to sign up and participate when that is just not true.

Unifex and I did not want to ban you (and we thought your post was perfectly ontopic and just fine). Unfortunately, asking people who feel that you are actively harming them, right now, to tolerate your presence kindly, especially when you're the reason they left the last forum, just wasn't going to work out. Sorry. Given the choice between being somewhat unfair or having yet another Medievia flamewar, well...

Of course we could have just told everyone else to shut up. Would be a pretty lonely forum then...

I do have to disagree with Sinuhe though. The fact that you don't like someone does not make it okay to go around starting **** constantly. KaVir & co. are not blameless.

[Soleil]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes perfect sense, but it is a shame that I get banned but the people flaming me don't. Ah such is life. I guess the MUD community will have to do without my wisdom, at least on that forum.

[Angie]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 05 2005,00:27) I guess the MUD community will have to do without my wisdom, at least on that forum.

Good thing you still have this forum to share your wisdom with us then. I'm holding my breath. So far I haven't seen much else than promotion from you. Even the mudlab post, while I agree it was on topic, wasn't exactly informative. You told us your god system "is very well tuned and works very well" and pasted a list of your immortal levels with two links to Medievia's webpage... not a great contribution to a discussion about the advantages and flaws of different administration arrangements.

[Soleil]

Well, it is true that my expertise is in promoting, as that is my job on Medievia along with the website and game newspaper. However, I do have some knowledge of the inter-workings of the Medievia staff. I'm sorry that my post over there wasn't in-depth enough for you. My post there could have lead to questions about Medievia's god-system, but since I cannot view or post over there, I would have no idea about that.

If anyone would like to know more about how we manage our gods on Medievia, feel free to ask

[xotl]

From reading these posts there seems to some holes in understanding.

I do admire them for their financial success and large playerbases, but the_logos (Matt) and the people from medevia appear to not understand that code theft is bad. I have seen attempts to educate them fail. I have seen very reasonable and forgiving suggestions that medevia just purchase a license for valhalla, keeping in totality their current codebase.

I don't have the time to do this myself, but I suggest that someone educates them. First I would suggest asking them for their code to set up your own system without having to pay them any royalties, for if taking another's code is not bad, they should gladly offer up their own. If they do offer up their code, then hey, they're ok with me. They aren't doing anything to anyone else that they wouldn't be willing to have happen to themselves. If this fails, however, join one of their muds as a developer, gain priviledges, then steal their code and set up a new system and make cash off of it, making the minimum amount of modifications needed, while giving them no credit. If this happens, and they have any complaints, there should be someone that overtly supports the theft and champions it. I think that this should cover any holes in understanding.

I suspect they just don't have any reality on what it would be like for this kind of thing to happen to them is all, and not that they are bad people. I have been in a situation where the code to a mud I owned was stolen, and it wasn't pleasant.

As for Kavir, you appear to have a fine sense of ethics and the fortitude to stand up for what you think is right despite significant opposition. But this is occasionally ruined by your inability to refrain from making pointless personal attacks on someone's character. Here is a web site with the majority of the logical fallacies: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php
I would hope that you could see that "Attacking the Person" actually makes you look bad, and look wrong, no matter how right you may be.

Anyhow, I hope this helps all involved. Unless you guys are really enjoying the fighting, in which case, fight on!

Xotl

[Traithe]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 04 2005,21:22) If anyone would like to know more about how we manage our gods on Medievia, feel free to ask

What's your policy on copyright infringement?

For example - what if one of your developers, say, absconded with your codebase, set it up on a server, stripped out the credits, claimed it as her own and then began using it to make profit?

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by What's your policy on copyright infringement? For example - what if one of your developers, say, absconded with your codebase, set it up on a server, stripped out the credits, claimed it as her own and then began using it to make profit?

Well, to be perfectly honest and to no surprise by anyone reading this, I have no policy.  That's Vryce's department, and his alone.  As stated in my earlier posts, I'm willing and able to discuss Medievia's promotions and it's godstaff management.  Copyright infringement was never on the slate for discussion by me.  If you want to hear Vryce's side of it, feel free to email him.

[Traithe]

Oh, come now - let's not be coy!

I'm sure you have SOME idea how you'd react in such a case.

Why not share and enlighten us? From the sounds of it, code theft and copyright infringement are pretty big issues in the MU* community these days. Coming from such a large, well-established MUD, you've no doubt encountered these sordid sorts of things in the past, no?

I know I for one would certainly welcome a few sage words of advice here from someone so obviously experienced in these matters.

[Soleil]

The last time I commented on the state of Medievia and it's role in copyright infringement and the such I was called a slut and my family was threatened. At that point I decided to no longer "enlighten" the users of this forum with my thoughts on that topic. Forgive me for looking out for my own welfare and that of my family. As I said, If you want to know about that, email Vryce, I'm sure he'd love to enlighten you.

[Traithe]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 05 2005,07:59) The last time I commented on the state of Medievia and it's role in copyright infringement and the such I was called a slut and my family was threatened.  At that point I decided to no longer "enlighten" the users of this forum with my thoughts on that topic.  Forgive me for looking out for my own welfare and that of my family.

Well, you're still posting here - so presumably either you don't really feel that your welfare is threatened, or you've got your priorities skewed, one of the two.

In all seriousness, the aforementioned ranting nutjobs aside - while I certainly agree with and understand their sentiment, I find their presentation a bit overwrought and in poor taste - why the reluctance to answer my question?

You're a clever girl - masters' degree, as I recall? I highly doubt you're underqualified to answer the question - intellectually, anyway.

You asked if any of us wanted to know how Medievia handles its "gods." I asked what you'd do if you found out one of your gods absconded with your code and was using it to make profit, sans any credits or mention of your game.

Seems like a reasonable question in light of your invitation to me.

[Sinuhe]

Soleil wrote: June 04 2005,17:27    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Thanks for the explanation.  Makes perfect sense, but it is a shame that I get banned but the people flaming me don't.  Ah such is life.  I guess the MUD community will have to do without my wisdom, at least on that forum.

What a touching sobstory from the 'innonetly punished'.

I hope nobody is gullible enough to fall for it. Soleil may be banned from Mudlab in her capacity of Promotion Manager of the code-stealing mud Medievia, for the simple reason that the mere displaying of the word Medievia, especially in connection with direct links to its webpage, is offensive to a large number of the posters there.

This should not have come as a great surprise to Soleil, since it has been repatedly stated that it was the main reason why they left this Forum to start a new one.  Consequently her mere presence there can be regarded as an intentional provocation, of the same sort as certain people here repeatedly posting flame-bait and then feigning wounded innocence when actually flamed in return. I'd say that she got exactly what she asked for and expected.

However, as for her not being alllowed to read any posts on that Forum, there was, and is, nothing to stop her from reading the boards or even taking part of the discussions under a different name, as long as she doesn't mention Medievia. But since her only interest in that and other boards is to post promotional stuff about Medievia, that is probably not going to happen. So far there have been no posts from her in these boards either that hasn't has as the sole purpose to either to promote or defend it.

She obviously isn't interested in Mud development, she is just interested in getting more players for Medievia.

[Soleil]

And as I stated earlier, that would have to be a decision for Vryce to make. It's not that I cannot answer the question or that I am avoiding it per se, I just don't want to put words into Vryce's mouth so to speak. I am not him, I do not know what his decision would be on a matter such as that.

I can speculate however that he would call our lawyers who would then deal with it

Is there reason to believe we should fear that someone HAS indeed infiltrated our god-system and is posing as someone they are not so that can run away with our code?

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by She obviously isn't interested in Mud development, she is just interested in getting more players for Medievia.

Well, part of our MUD's development is the art of getting new players, the best ways to go about it, marketing techniques, etc. It is my JOB to get us new players. Forgive me for doing it.

Originally Posted by However, as for her not being alllowed to read any posts on that Forum, there was, and is, nothing to stop her from reading the boards or even taking part of the discussions under a different name, as long as she doesn't mention Medievia.

And btw, no I cannot go to mudlab to read the posts at all. My IP has been banned from even going there. I get this message as soon as I try to go to the forums: " You have been banned from this forum. Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information." When I click on "register" to try and register under a new name, I get the same message. So, I cannot view the boards or create a new account under a different username as you suggest.

[Traithe]

Ah, okay - I think I see.

In other words, you'd probably haul the thief into court for having the audacity to violate your protected copyright.

Copyright protection, incidentally, provided to all original creative works, whether explicitly copyrighted or not.

Interesting.

[Soleil]

Originally Posted by In other words, you'd probably haul the thief into court for having the audacity to violate your protected copyright.

As I've stated multiple times, I don't know if this would happen at all. That would be Vryce's call to make. Don't twist my words to make them fact. Here's his direct email if you aren't getting my point here - vryce@medievia.com

[Valg]

I'm not sure Vryce would be able to sue the operator of a MUD for infringing his copyright and failing to give credit to him, largely because the balls required for such an astounding act of hypocrisy would prohibit him from walking there.

Soleil: Regardless of your interpretation of the license, could you answer the question of why Medievia refuses to acknowledge the DIKU team in the game's credits, given the role they played in making Medievia possible?

[Soleil]

Yep, I can. The following link is the "How Medievia Got Started" link on our website. I am not sure when Vryce last updated it, but I think this has been there some time...

How Medievia Got Started

Vryce wrote that, so if you have any questions, ask him

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 05 2005,08:27) And btw, no I cannot go to mudlab to read the posts at all. My IP has been banned from even going there. I get this message as soon as I try to go to the forums: " You have been banned from this forum. Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information." When I click on "register" to try and register under a new name, I get the same message. So, I cannot view the boards or create a new account under a different username as you suggest.

Your IP is not banned. You simply asked the forum to autologin when you originally registered. Since your username was banned, you thus receive that message. If you clear your cookies (Tools -> Internet Options -> Delete Cookies), you should have no trouble reading the forums.

As for new user registrations, I had the *@medievia.com email address banned from activating new accounts to stem further trouble. Since you have indicated a desire to register a new username not affiliated with the source of the troubles, I have removed that email ban. Email addresses are hidden, so I see no harm in that.