[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 08 2005,08:22) No, and no.  As I stated earlier many many times now, this is Vryce's "thing" so to speak.  Yes I stand by him in his decisions and his stance, but no I will not speak for him.  I've provided the link to our webpage that explains his stance, and I've provided his email address to which you can write.  I doubt anyone has or will. ... I don't always have the knowledge to answer your questions without getting myself in over my head.  I've explained to you all over and over that I cannot answer your questions as I am not Vryce.  You may see that as weak or playing hard to get, but that's the way it is.  I do not want to speak out of my realm of experience.

1) Multiple people have assembled detailed claims of why you have committed plagiarism. Vryce can't make time for a public answer? Sweeping it under the rug and pretending Vryce needs this thread typed and privately emailed or he just can't find the time... is nothing less than an obvious attempt to slink away from the mess you created, and a clumsy attempt to bury the issue after being publically exposed as a fraud.

2) You don't get to use the "But I don't know anything!" defense, because you've come here on multiple occasions and posted (smugly) about how Medievia isn't plagiarism. If you are the uninformed innocent bystander you're now trying to pass yourself off as, you should not have made those claims. Otherwise, be prepared to back them up, or tap Vryce on the shoulder and get him to fill in where you aren't capable.

I recognize the plagiarism in question isn't your doing, and that you feel obligated to defend Vryce regardless of all the things he did. I suspect you know, as anyone who has read the definitions and code comparisons would, that you're running a DIKU derivative and are ignoring the license. It's sad that Vryce is hanging you out to dry by not owning up to his actions and sticking you with his public relations problems.

But hey, you took your twenty pieces of silver from the community. You're the public relations figurehead for Medievia, and this community is part of the public. Got answers?

[Soleil]

I already answered all your questions to the best of my ability.  Vryce does not care about posting to this forum.  As I said in my previous post, he does not feel he needs to answer to you here, or probably anywhere.  If you want answers from him you will have to contact him directly.  I've said that multiple times now.  Keeping at me with the same questions isn't going to lead me to answering them.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ June 07 2005,18:34) Sorry, but the day I take The_Logos word on anything re Medievia & code theft is the same day winged monkeys start flyin' out of my butt!!

Excellent! Then do yourself a favor. Print out the DIKU license, take it to a lawyer with some background in intellectual property law, and find out what he has to day. I bet you will be sorely disappointed.

[xotl]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 08 2005,10:27) I already answered all your questions to the best of my ability.  Vryce does not care about posting to this forum.  As I said in my previous post, he does not feel he needs to answer to you here, or probably anywhere.  If you want answers from him you will have to contact him directly.  I've said that multiple times now.  Keeping at me with the same questions isn't going to lead me to answering them.

I am getting the impression that Soleil is a person who operates off of her feelings on matters, I keep reading the word feel in many places.

Soleil, I apologize if anyone has hurt your feelings or if you have felt personally attacked or threatened.

A lot of people in the mudding community are feeling badly about what they have heard. They are angry or sad that Vryce has originally built his mud upon diku code and is not thankful. This is like a parent named diku raising a child Medevia, then when the child has outgrown his parents, leaving in spite with no appreciation for their efforts.

As I see it, these members of the community are trying, much like certain religions do, to bring about something like "Honor your parents" or "Honor your beginnings".

I can email Vryce and post a response here if that's needed.

[xotl]

Hi Soleil, I composed an email per your request. I hope this helps you out. Here are the contents:

Hi Vryce,

This is Xotl from the mud Accursed Lands on which I am the head Admin.

There has been a discussion recently on the Top Mud Sites forum regarding Medievia and the removal of the Diku credits.

I understand that you have recoded your mud several times to the point that there is very little to no recognizable code left in it from the original works.

However, there are several of us to which it seems clear cut that the mud is still a derivative work, per US law, as per the definition on the following web page which I have copied after the link for your convenience.

http://law2.house.gov/uscode-....0%20%20

A ''derivative work'' is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a ''derivative work''.

I am curious as to why you felt the need to remove the diku credits in the first place and to not honor a team of people which contributed to the success of your original muds, and I am sure your original muds contributed to the success of your current mud. I have looked around but have not seen a statement by you on this anywhere.

Please understand that I am not saying that "Medievia is a DIKU mud.", as you have stated it is not on your "How Medievia Got Started" web page. I understand you have made extensive modifications to it and that it has turned into a work unto itself. What I am saying is that it still appears to be a DIKU derivative work, they contributed to your success, and thus I hold the belief that they are worthy of recognition as such.

I am curious what the harm would be of putting a couple names somewhere on your title screen to thank them would be? I would think that it would resolve your public relations issues.

Thanks for your time in answering my questions,

Xotl

[Sinuhe]

Soleil wrote: June 08 2005,08:22

Originally Posted by More and more they are coming to Medievia from topmudsites, despite all the negativity surrounding the game.  So, I think I lost my point, but basically even though you all hound on Medievia and our background, I still love being a part of it all. And, you can think and believe what you will about Medievia, Vryce, me, our integrity and so forth.  Nothing is going to change your feelings, ever.  Even if we were sued and DIKU won and you all got what you want, you would still hate Medievia.  Even if the DIKU team publically stated they don't care what we are doing, you would still hate Medievia.  We will always be the ugly duckling of the Mud world.  So be it.

At least the last part of that statement is of course not true.
Sure, the flames will probably continue,  if you plan to just go ahead advertising on these boards and even bragging a bit about all the new players you get from the bad publicity, (like Vryce also used to do before he allegedly stopped reading boards).

But there is a very solid and simple alternative way, which has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

If you showed some remorse for what was done in the past, if you put the Diku credits back on the log-in screen, and removed the lies and the insults to the Diku team from the website, and then struck some kind of deal with the Diku team about the licence, then would have mended a bit of the harm your husband did in the past. Then twink mudowners could not point at Medievia as an example of how you can steal someone’s work and make a profit from it without any repercussions from the society. Then you would have shown some civil courage that would most likely make the community willing to forgive and forget the past. And then the flames would stop.

Regrettably it seems pretty clear by now that this is not a route that you are going to choose. And as a consequence the flames will probably rekindle every time you post to advertise your game. And maybe you will end up withdrawing from the boards, like Vryce already did. And maybe you will also regret that you didn’t take that other route, when offered to you. At least some day in the future when your kids get old enough to enter the internet and find out for themselves about the nature of mommy’s and daddy’s little business.

But in any case, don’t try to paint yourself out as an innocent victim. You are not a victim, and you are certainly not innocent.

And we'll all be very interested to read Vryce's response to Xotl's e-mail.

[Jazuela]

If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it.

That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break.

The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!"

They've painted themselves into a corner.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ June 09 2005,09:00) If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it. That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break. The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!"

Not really. They can adopt Matt's argument- they're a DIKU derivative, but the license doesn't mean they can't use their present business model. (Either because it's the copyright holder's responsibility to sue them, or because they can weasel around the precise wording of the license.)

In contrast, no one outside of the Happy Medievia Couple is claiming they aren't a DIKU derivative. It's the weakest part of a very weak larger argument of weakness.

I think going from "breach of contract and plagiarism" to "breach of contract" would help their public relations problems to some degree.

[GuruPlayer]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ June 08 2005,12:12) Excellent! Then do yourself a favor. Print out the DIKU license, take it to a lawyer with some background in intellectual property law, and find out what he has to day. I bet you will be sorely disappointed.

As usual, you miss the effin' point, which seems to be a problem in this modern age.  I don't care if the DIKU license is flawed, or why DIKU hasn't sued.  The point is what Medievia did was morally & ethically WRONG, period...end of line.

Maybe you subscribe to the "If it feels good & I can get away with it, do it" code of ethics like Medievia, but I don't.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ June 09 2005,12:06) Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ June 08 2005,12:12) As usual, you miss the effin' point, which seems to be a problem in this modern age.  I don't care if the DIKU license is flawed, or why DIKU hasn't sued.  The point is what Medievia did was morally & ethically WRONG, period...end of line. Maybe you subscribe to the "If it feels good & I can get away with it, do it" code of ethics like Medievia, but I don't.

You only care about the morals and ethics aspect of it Guruplayer? Well let me refresh your apparently very-short memory. Here's your original retort to Jeena

Originally Posted by Do you even know who or what "Diku" is? FYI: Diku refers to a university in Denmark & the Diku code that was developed by their students & was released to the public to use for free, the only stipulations were: 1. Give the Diku developers credit, & 2. Do not charge money to play the game (which includes pay for perks). Now that university, who owns the rights, doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action in the US vs Medievia, which Medievia counts on, else they would probably lose if forced to show their code in court. What did happen was the original Diku developers now refuse to release any future code versions due to the Medievia theft, which is what KaVir is referring to when he says "have you ever played a Diku3 derivative?" By the way Jeena, try doing a little research before posting that there is no evidence...

Where in the #### do you state that your care about the morals and ethics of Medievia stealing code? No, your retort to Jeena was that if DIKU had the money, they'd take Medievia to court and win. No mention of any moral arguments against Medievia! You even had the gall to tell Jeena to do "research" when you yourself had done none!


So apparently, you quickly change your mind to fit your needs. Before it was Medievia definitely violating the license, now it's Medievia is morally wrong. You have been exposed as two-faced.

[GuruPlayer]

Yep I was right, you do miss the effin point!

[Sinuhe]

Valg wrote: June 09 2005,107    

Originally Posted by -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote (Jazuela @ June 09 2005,090) If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it. That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break. The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!" Not really.  They can adopt Matt's argument- they're a DIKU derivative, but the license doesn't mean they can't use their present business model.  (Either because it's the copyright holder's responsibility to sue them, or because they can weasel around the precise wording of the license.)

They could also do ‘the honourable thing’ and strike a deal   with the Diku team.
True, it would cost them a bit, probably the price of the Valhalla licence.
But the cost would be tax-deductible. And the gain in goodwill should be worth the cost.
At least Soleil, as their PR responsible person, should realise that.

The response from Vryce to Xotl’s e-mail might clarify this. If there is a response, of course.

[KaVir]

The problem is that the Valhalla licence applies to a different codebase - presumably one derived from Diku, but from an earlier version. There were discussions some years ago about re-releasing Diku under a different licence, but a member of the FSF said such a thing wouldn't be possible without getting permission from every contributor. As many of these contributors have vanished into the mists of time, getting such permission was obviously not possible, and as a result it was determined that the licence conditions couldn't be changed.

In the case of Medievia, the issue is further complicated by the fact that they're based on Merc, which is a Diku derivative. Even if you were to overlook the FSF's claims about the contributors, the fact still remains that the Diku team have no rights over Merc.

However I do agree that from a goodwill perspective it would be a fine gesture, particularly if they also restored the Diku and Merc credits and apologised for lying to everyone for the last decade. I do wonder what sort of knock-on affect such a legally-invalid special-case licence would have on other Diku muds though...

[Ashon]

xotl,

Any reply yet? Any whatsoever?

[xotl]

No reply from Vryce yet.

[GuruPlayer]

Don't hold your breath waiting....

[Sinuhe]

While we all hold our breath waiting for Vryce's response to Xotl's very polite e-mail, here is an interesting question:

At about the same time that Medievia was allowed back on the TMC list, (or somewhat later), it seems to have been removed from the Mudmagic listing. Since Mudmagic used to promote Medievia rather aggressively before, it would be interesting to know what made Kyndig take this decision.

[Valg]

We should have set up a pool for how long Vryce would take to answer xotl's questions, including several versions of "Never", like "Curt email dismissing need to reply." or "Soleil claims Vryce's email doesn't always work." The winner could get some "unaccounted for" Munch paintings, or an autographed picture of Jayson Blair.

There is much difference between imitating a man and counterfeiting him.
- Benjamin Franklin

[Valg]

For those in the pool, "Respond to a reasonable question within 10 days." is now out.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ June 19 2005,12:36) For those in the pool, "Respond to a reasonable question within 10 days." is now out.

Well, to be fair, it's not really a "reasonable question." It is rather an inquisition, as he is no doubt aware. You guys are asking him largely so that you can use whatever answer he gives (and it won't matter what answer he gives) to further attack him, so why should he play that game with you?
--matt

[Valg]

Two possibilities:

1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it. He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism.

In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty? (And cowardly, to boot.) What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code?

2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar.

If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent? Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist?

He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law. Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind. If so, shouldn't he post it?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by 1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it.  He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism. In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty?  (And cowardly, to boot.)   What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code?

Well, if that's the scenario, you'd have no way of knowing about it, since you can't know that he knows his position is indefensible. There's also nothing wrong with calling him out as guilty if that's what you believe, but I mean, when do you drop it, considering it's not actually accomplished getting the credits put back, if indeed Medievia is guilty of code theft? 10 years is a long time to carry on over something that caused "the victims" very little damage of any sort and which "the victims" have long ago dropped as an issue.

So I mean, yeah, you can continue to post on forums asking that he do it, but since he's clearly not going to, the posts asking him to are just non-commercial spam in a way, if you see what I mean. I think it's healthy that the issue was discussed, but it's also been discussed quite to death with no change in the status quo.

Originally Posted by 2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar.

You know, I think it's odd to focus on the law quite so much because the hatred for Medievia seems like a moral thing rather than a legal thing. Many people regularly speed, and that's clearly illegal and has -far- more serious potential consequences (killing people, etc) than not having the DIKU creators names on the login screen of a MUD. Of course, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this is a lot of effort to put forth for such a minor thing when you could be spending your time trying to, say, shame speeders into slowing down. There are people out there right now, speeding all over the place. All over wherever it is you live. Right in your local neighborhood. Anyway, I know I break various laws regularly, and I don't care. In fact, just today on my motorcycle I passed numerous cars by crossing over the double yellow line, zipped along at well over the speed limit, and failed to signal that I was turning into my driveway. As I write this, I am relaxing with an illegal substance used purely for recreational purposes. The law doesn't get to dictate my or your morality.

On the other hand, if it's a moral thing, which it appears to be, then you have to recognize that this is hardly a black and white issue. I am -not- defending code theft (or the use of -any- IP without permission), but I don't think it's a stretch to make a moral argument that differs substantially from the technicalities of the definition of a derivative work under US law. I mean, intellectual property as a concept is a reasonably recent invention in terms of mass acceptance by the US, and parts of the world have no real concept of it in their moral structure. (Owning things, yes, owning ideas, no.) Are they wrong? I don't think so, though I would certainly use whatever tools the law makes available to me to go after anyone taking what I view as my stuff.

I just want to repeat: If Medievia did indeed engage in what they are accused of, I would certainly not be a fan of that kind of behavior. But, lots of people, including my immediate family and best friends, do things I don't approve of. Life would be pretty lonely if you tried to ostracize everyone who did something you disapproved of.

Originally Posted by If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent?  Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist?

Well that one is easy. Who cares if you guys claim he's a plagiarist? What possible reason have you given him to care? It's been nothing but bile and rancor, which isn't a very good invitation to a rational discussion. Life's too short to care what people who can't really affect you think of you in general. (I'd make one crappy politician!

Originally Posted by He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law.  Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind.  If so, shouldn't he post it?

Why? I mean this in the nicest possible way: Who do you think you are that someone should come running to answer your questions? It'd be one thing if you were one of the DIKU authors, I'll grant, because they're the victims if what is alleged is true, though even then he could quite reasonably expect that they would contact him privately to deal with it. From his point of view though, why would he come running just because some random forum posters ask him to, especially when those forum posters have, in some cases, spent 10 years vilifying him. And in fact, at this point he probably dislikes some people so much for attacking him so repeatedly and viciously that the fact that he CAN ignore you with no consequences is probably quite enjoyable. Really, there's nothing to be gained for him by engaging with you guys on the issue at this point, especially because I'm sure he knows that no matter what he says, some posters will use it as a reason to attack him more.

--matt

[Ilkidarios]

Maybe the reason Vryce doesn't answer is because he doesn't feel like it.  What do you want him to say?  I for one am glad he doesn't say anything, I couldn't care less.  At least we won't end up with a Derek Smart on our hands.  And frankly, I don't think he's going to be comin out here to say something anytime soon.  Him admitting he stole codebase would be like an idiot admitting he was stupid, it just doesn't happen.  Who's the last murderer you know who plead guilty? (No, I'm not comparing Vryce to an idiot or a murderer)

[Daedroth]

Coulda swore this thread was dead.... *cough*

Hate to say it, but logos is actually right... somehow. No matter how many people post about it on these forums or others, its not gonna affect medievia or any of their people at all. Really, all this is doing is advertising for them, as im sure has already been said. Think of them as gods, and you are just mortals, whining to the heavens. Do they really care?

Truthfully, are we MU* players even affected by whether or not they are here? Does it even make a difference on our daily lives if they DID steal some code? I don't think its worth all this effort for nothing.

I'm so gonna get flamed....

[prof1515]

Easy solution:

If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community. If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves.

There. Enough said.

Take care,

Jason

[Sinuhe]

the_logos June 19 2005,19:14

Originally Posted by So I mean, yeah, you can continue to post on forums asking that he do it, but since he's clearly not going to, the posts asking him to are just non-commercial spam in a way, if you see what I mean. I think it's healthy that the issue was discussed, but it's also been discussed quite to death with no change in the status quo.

It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames.

Originally Posted by Anyway, I know I break various laws regularly, and I don't care. In fact, just today on my motorcycle I passed numerous cars by crossing over the double yellow line, zipped along at well over the speed limit, and failed to signal that I was turning into my driveway. As I write this, I am relaxing with an illegal substance used purely for recreational purposes. The law doesn't get to dictate my or your morality.

And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post.
Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames.

Or, you could just stop flaming them. *gasp*

Originally Posted by And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post. Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?

Why post here asking that? Why not just mail Kyndig or post on Mudmagic asking him?

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ June 20 2005,03:29) Easy solution: If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community.  If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves.

Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft. Of course, I'd also never defend stealing any sort of IP, and there's plenty of that going on in many MUDs on TMS. On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care?

Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere and I'm wondering who it is actually directed to. I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it. People could lose their jobs, be unable to pay their mortgages, etc. If, on the other hand, I suffered only mild ego harm, like the DIKU authors did, then I doubt I'd care very much....which is pretty much the stance the DIKU authors seem to have taken, since they dropped the issue years ago.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 20 2005,13:43) Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere....

Chalk it up to being sick of seeing this topic on the forums featuring rationalizations to defend unethical and immoral acts.

Originally Posted by Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft...On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care?

Do you approve of Medievia's actions?  Yes or no.  Same goes for the others that made up excuses as to why Medievia shouldn't be held accountable by whatever means possible for their act of theft.

Anyone that doesn't believe that taking something that isn't yours and claiming it as your own when you are aware of to whom ownership belongs as well as their will regarding it.  We all know who created the DIKU code and we know their conditions for its use.  That known, Medievia chose to steal.  Making excuses for people who deliberately committed an immoral act leaves a person guilty of approving of such an act.

Originally Posted by I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it.

Harm is harm, and committing an act against another when you know they do not approve of that act is just as immoral regardless of the degree of harm it causes.  To put it only in economic terms just shows that you approve of theft except under specific conditions.  That's the same as saying you oppose murder but approve of attempted murder as long as it fails and no injury occured.

So, back to my question:  do you approve of what Medievia did? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Take care,

Jason

[Ilkidarios]

I'll answer your question myself: No I don't approve of it, but I just don't care anymore.  There's nothing I can do about it.  I just want to stop talking about Medievia.  All these mindless drones who say "M3DI3VIA DIDN'T ST3AL CODE BECAUSE I'M IGN0R4NT!!!1R0FLMAOLOO00OLLLLLLLLL!!!11" are drawn to discussions like this.  Perhaps, like a moth and a lamp, if you turn off the lamp the moth goes wherever it was going.  So maybe if we stopped talking about Medievia, the mindless drones will go away.  After all, if a kid with ADD gets bored, he will go run with scissors or something.