[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 08 2005,08:22) No, and no.  As I stated earlier many many times now, this is Vryce's "thing" so to speak.  Yes I stand by him in his decisions and his stance, but no I will not speak for him.  I've provided the link to our webpage that explains his stance, and I've provided his email address to which you can write.  I doubt anyone has or will. ... I don't always have the knowledge to answer your questions without getting myself in over my head.  I've explained to you all over and over that I cannot answer your questions as I am not Vryce.  You may see that as weak or playing hard to get, but that's the way it is.  I do not want to speak out of my realm of experience.

1) Multiple people have assembled detailed claims of why you have committed plagiarism. Vryce can't make time for a public answer? Sweeping it under the rug and pretending Vryce needs this thread typed and privately emailed or he just can't find the time... is nothing less than an obvious attempt to slink away from the mess you created, and a clumsy attempt to bury the issue after being publically exposed as a fraud.

2) You don't get to use the "But I don't know anything!" defense, because you've come here on multiple occasions and posted (smugly) about how Medievia isn't plagiarism. If you are the uninformed innocent bystander you're now trying to pass yourself off as, you should not have made those claims. Otherwise, be prepared to back them up, or tap Vryce on the shoulder and get him to fill in where you aren't capable.

I recognize the plagiarism in question isn't your doing, and that you feel obligated to defend Vryce regardless of all the things he did. I suspect you know, as anyone who has read the definitions and code comparisons would, that you're running a DIKU derivative and are ignoring the license. It's sad that Vryce is hanging you out to dry by not owning up to his actions and sticking you with his public relations problems.

But hey, you took your twenty pieces of silver from the community. You're the public relations figurehead for Medievia, and this community is part of the public. Got answers?

[Soleil]

I already answered all your questions to the best of my ability.  Vryce does not care about posting to this forum.  As I said in my previous post, he does not feel he needs to answer to you here, or probably anywhere.  If you want answers from him you will have to contact him directly.  I've said that multiple times now.  Keeping at me with the same questions isn't going to lead me to answering them.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ June 07 2005,18:34) Sorry, but the day I take The_Logos word on anything re Medievia & code theft is the same day winged monkeys start flyin' out of my butt!!

Excellent! Then do yourself a favor. Print out the DIKU license, take it to a lawyer with some background in intellectual property law, and find out what he has to day. I bet you will be sorely disappointed.

[xotl]

Originally Posted by (Soleil @ June 08 2005,10:27) I already answered all your questions to the best of my ability.  Vryce does not care about posting to this forum.  As I said in my previous post, he does not feel he needs to answer to you here, or probably anywhere.  If you want answers from him you will have to contact him directly.  I've said that multiple times now.  Keeping at me with the same questions isn't going to lead me to answering them.

I am getting the impression that Soleil is a person who operates off of her feelings on matters, I keep reading the word feel in many places.

Soleil, I apologize if anyone has hurt your feelings or if you have felt personally attacked or threatened.

A lot of people in the mudding community are feeling badly about what they have heard. They are angry or sad that Vryce has originally built his mud upon diku code and is not thankful. This is like a parent named diku raising a child Medevia, then when the child has outgrown his parents, leaving in spite with no appreciation for their efforts.

As I see it, these members of the community are trying, much like certain religions do, to bring about something like "Honor your parents" or "Honor your beginnings".

I can email Vryce and post a response here if that's needed.

[xotl]

Hi Soleil, I composed an email per your request. I hope this helps you out. Here are the contents:

Hi Vryce,

This is Xotl from the mud Accursed Lands on which I am the head Admin.

There has been a discussion recently on the Top Mud Sites forum regarding Medievia and the removal of the Diku credits.

I understand that you have recoded your mud several times to the point that there is very little to no recognizable code left in it from the original works.

However, there are several of us to which it seems clear cut that the mud is still a derivative work, per US law, as per the definition on the following web page which I have copied after the link for your convenience.

http://law2.house.gov/uscode-....0%20%20

A ''derivative work'' is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a ''derivative work''.

I am curious as to why you felt the need to remove the diku credits in the first place and to not honor a team of people which contributed to the success of your original muds, and I am sure your original muds contributed to the success of your current mud. I have looked around but have not seen a statement by you on this anywhere.

Please understand that I am not saying that "Medievia is a DIKU mud.", as you have stated it is not on your "How Medievia Got Started" web page. I understand you have made extensive modifications to it and that it has turned into a work unto itself. What I am saying is that it still appears to be a DIKU derivative work, they contributed to your success, and thus I hold the belief that they are worthy of recognition as such.

I am curious what the harm would be of putting a couple names somewhere on your title screen to thank them would be? I would think that it would resolve your public relations issues.

Thanks for your time in answering my questions,

Xotl

[Sinuhe]

Soleil wrote: June 08 2005,08:22

Originally Posted by More and more they are coming to Medievia from topmudsites, despite all the negativity surrounding the game.  So, I think I lost my point, but basically even though you all hound on Medievia and our background, I still love being a part of it all. And, you can think and believe what you will about Medievia, Vryce, me, our integrity and so forth.  Nothing is going to change your feelings, ever.  Even if we were sued and DIKU won and you all got what you want, you would still hate Medievia.  Even if the DIKU team publically stated they don't care what we are doing, you would still hate Medievia.  We will always be the ugly duckling of the Mud world.  So be it.

At least the last part of that statement is of course not true.
Sure, the flames will probably continue,  if you plan to just go ahead advertising on these boards and even bragging a bit about all the new players you get from the bad publicity, (like Vryce also used to do before he allegedly stopped reading boards).

But there is a very solid and simple alternative way, which has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

If you showed some remorse for what was done in the past, if you put the Diku credits back on the log-in screen, and removed the lies and the insults to the Diku team from the website, and then struck some kind of deal with the Diku team about the licence, then would have mended a bit of the harm your husband did in the past. Then twink mudowners could not point at Medievia as an example of how you can steal someone’s work and make a profit from it without any repercussions from the society. Then you would have shown some civil courage that would most likely make the community willing to forgive and forget the past. And then the flames would stop.

Regrettably it seems pretty clear by now that this is not a route that you are going to choose. And as a consequence the flames will probably rekindle every time you post to advertise your game. And maybe you will end up withdrawing from the boards, like Vryce already did. And maybe you will also regret that you didn’t take that other route, when offered to you. At least some day in the future when your kids get old enough to enter the internet and find out for themselves about the nature of mommy’s and daddy’s little business.

But in any case, don’t try to paint yourself out as an innocent victim. You are not a victim, and you are certainly not innocent.

And we'll all be very interested to read Vryce's response to Xotl's e-mail.

[Jazuela]

If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it.

That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break.

The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!"

They've painted themselves into a corner.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ June 09 2005,09:00) If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it. That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break. The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!"

Not really. They can adopt Matt's argument- they're a DIKU derivative, but the license doesn't mean they can't use their present business model. (Either because it's the copyright holder's responsibility to sue them, or because they can weasel around the precise wording of the license.)

In contrast, no one outside of the Happy Medievia Couple is claiming they aren't a DIKU derivative. It's the weakest part of a very weak larger argument of weakness.

I think going from "breach of contract and plagiarism" to "breach of contract" would help their public relations problems to some degree.

[GuruPlayer]

Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ June 08 2005,12:12) Excellent! Then do yourself a favor. Print out the DIKU license, take it to a lawyer with some background in intellectual property law, and find out what he has to day. I bet you will be sorely disappointed.

As usual, you miss the effin' point, which seems to be a problem in this modern age.  I don't care if the DIKU license is flawed, or why DIKU hasn't sued.  The point is what Medievia did was morally & ethically WRONG, period...end of line.

Maybe you subscribe to the "If it feels good & I can get away with it, do it" code of ethics like Medievia, but I don't.

[PinkFloyd]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ June 09 2005,12:06) Originally Posted by (PinkFloyd @ June 08 2005,12:12) As usual, you miss the effin' point, which seems to be a problem in this modern age.  I don't care if the DIKU license is flawed, or why DIKU hasn't sued.  The point is what Medievia did was morally & ethically WRONG, period...end of line. Maybe you subscribe to the "If it feels good & I can get away with it, do it" code of ethics like Medievia, but I don't.

You only care about the morals and ethics aspect of it Guruplayer? Well let me refresh your apparently very-short memory. Here's your original retort to Jeena

Originally Posted by Do you even know who or what "Diku" is? FYI: Diku refers to a university in Denmark & the Diku code that was developed by their students & was released to the public to use for free, the only stipulations were: 1. Give the Diku developers credit, & 2. Do not charge money to play the game (which includes pay for perks). Now that university, who owns the rights, doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action in the US vs Medievia, which Medievia counts on, else they would probably lose if forced to show their code in court. What did happen was the original Diku developers now refuse to release any future code versions due to the Medievia theft, which is what KaVir is referring to when he says "have you ever played a Diku3 derivative?" By the way Jeena, try doing a little research before posting that there is no evidence...

Where in the #### do you state that your care about the morals and ethics of Medievia stealing code? No, your retort to Jeena was that if DIKU had the money, they'd take Medievia to court and win. No mention of any moral arguments against Medievia! You even had the gall to tell Jeena to do "research" when you yourself had done none!


So apparently, you quickly change your mind to fit your needs. Before it was Medievia definitely violating the license, now it's Medievia is morally wrong. You have been exposed as two-faced.

[GuruPlayer]

Yep I was right, you do miss the effin point!

[Sinuhe]

Valg wrote: June 09 2005,107    

Originally Posted by -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote (Jazuela @ June 09 2005,090) If they admit that they are, in fact, a deriv of Diku, then they will be admitting, due to the wording of the license, that they are violating it. That's why they can't admit that they're a deriv. No Diku = no license to break. The moment the credits re-appear on their game is the moment the bruhaha rises again pointing fingers and saying, "AHA! See? You ARE a diku! Now you have to stop being commercial!" Not really.  They can adopt Matt's argument- they're a DIKU derivative, but the license doesn't mean they can't use their present business model.  (Either because it's the copyright holder's responsibility to sue them, or because they can weasel around the precise wording of the license.)

They could also do ‘the honourable thing’ and strike a deal   with the Diku team.
True, it would cost them a bit, probably the price of the Valhalla licence.
But the cost would be tax-deductible. And the gain in goodwill should be worth the cost.
At least Soleil, as their PR responsible person, should realise that.

The response from Vryce to Xotl’s e-mail might clarify this. If there is a response, of course.

[KaVir]

The problem is that the Valhalla licence applies to a different codebase - presumably one derived from Diku, but from an earlier version. There were discussions some years ago about re-releasing Diku under a different licence, but a member of the FSF said such a thing wouldn't be possible without getting permission from every contributor. As many of these contributors have vanished into the mists of time, getting such permission was obviously not possible, and as a result it was determined that the licence conditions couldn't be changed.

In the case of Medievia, the issue is further complicated by the fact that they're based on Merc, which is a Diku derivative. Even if you were to overlook the FSF's claims about the contributors, the fact still remains that the Diku team have no rights over Merc.

However I do agree that from a goodwill perspective it would be a fine gesture, particularly if they also restored the Diku and Merc credits and apologised for lying to everyone for the last decade. I do wonder what sort of knock-on affect such a legally-invalid special-case licence would have on other Diku muds though...

[Ashon]

xotl,

Any reply yet? Any whatsoever?

[xotl]

No reply from Vryce yet.

[GuruPlayer]

Don't hold your breath waiting....

[Sinuhe]

While we all hold our breath waiting for Vryce's response to Xotl's very polite e-mail, here is an interesting question:

At about the same time that Medievia was allowed back on the TMC list, (or somewhat later), it seems to have been removed from the Mudmagic listing. Since Mudmagic used to promote Medievia rather aggressively before, it would be interesting to know what made Kyndig take this decision.