[prof1515]

Let's be honest about it, the terms used to describe MUDs may be descriptive of the games' policies but they hardly reflect the reality of the capablity of that MUD in regard to RP.

"RP-accepted" means "Not RP".  This is little more than "Hack and Slash but you can talk to the mobs before they die if you want to."  I've tried to RP (a long time ago) on such a game.  It's just not possible.  You go into a room and interact with a mob only to have some fool come by and slaughter it for the "experience points".  So, you try to RP around it only to have the mob respawn so the next H&Ser can come along and score some experience.  Nope, it just doesn't work.

"RP-encouraged" means "Not RP".  RP requires that there are certain standards within the world.  If one person tries to RP with another, events going on around them can easily destroy an atmosphere of RP created by them.  Even solo-RP requires that the world revolve around some sort of constant.  If one person wants to RP that they're taking a casual stroll down the street, it's disruptive to the atmosphere if they constantly come across corpses.  Even if they RP around that, at some point, it begins to become ridiculously unbelievable.  

Now, I could go off on quite a few of the so-called "RP-enforced" MUDs too but I'm going to hold back.    Suffice to say, RPers aren't "elitists" but merely looking for something other than mindless slaughter.  Whereas some people look at a mob and think "points" or "loot"; RPers look at a mob, read its description, think about what the mob would look and act like, and treat it as if it were another PC within the world they're in.  I almost laugh at people that take their H&S world seriously yet don't see the irony in treating that world seriously while they cut down every NPC in their path.

Anyway, as for me, I've had my fill of H&S.  Just doesn't hold my interest anymore and they are occassionally played by pathetic people that take it way too seriously for what it is, a game.  I think a small number of them use the game to compensate in their own minds for feelings of inferiority in real life.  To that end, they become overly competitive and act in a manner quite unacceptable to achieve their goals.  I'd just as soon not deal with those people.  It's sometimes unavoidable in real life, but why do it during my recreation?  Besides, I enjoy living out my imagination through a fictional world (exploring it and interacting with it) more than killing things.  You can only type "kill <mob>" so many times before it loses its fascination.  But, just as the real world contains endless potential, so too do RP worlds.  That's where you'll find me on my time off.  

Take care,

Jason

[Dubthach]

Next time, I recommend you use less prejudicial language if you are trying to not come off as "elitist".

Originally Posted by You go into a room and interact with a mob only to have some fool come by and slaughter it for the "experience points".

Originally Posted by Suffice to say, RPers aren't "elitists" but merely looking for something other than mindless slaughter.

Originally Posted by I almost laugh at people that take their H&S world seriously yet don't see the irony in treating that world seriously while they cut down every NPC in their path.

Originally Posted by Anyway, as for me, I've had my fill of H&S. Just doesn't hold my interest anymore and they are occassionally played by pathetic people that take it way too seriously

Seems pretty clear that you are, in fact, elitist. You characterized non RP'ers as pathetic fools who are interested in mindless activities.

Dub

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by You go into a room and interact with a mob only to have some fool come by and slaughter it for the "experience points".

Originally Posted by Suffice to say, RPers aren't "elitists" but merely looking for something other than mindless slaughter.

Originally Posted by I almost laugh at people that take their H&S world seriously yet don't see the irony in treating that world seriously while they cut down every NPC in their path.

Originally Posted by Anyway, as for me, I've had my fill of H&S.  Just doesn't hold my interest anymore and they are occassionally played by pathetic people that take it way too seriously

Originally Posted by Seems pretty clear that you are, in fact, elitist.  You characterized non RP'ers as pathetic fools who are interested in mindless activities. Dub

In regard to the first comment, if someone else were already there, entering a room and mindlessly (if the action didn't entail any extensive thought beforehand regarding the situation, that pretty much consititutes mindless) killing the NPC that the other person might have been interacting with within the atmosphere of the room description is perhaps not the action of a fool.  Substitute "ass" instead.

Concerning the second statement, please see my above comment about mindless activity.  It doesn't take a lot of thought to type "kill <mob>", then direction "x", then "kill <mob>" again, etc.

In reference to the third comment, I take it you don't see the irony.  Maybe you just didn't think about it.

As for the fourth statement, read my earlier comments again and you'll see that I said that they are "occassionally played by pathetic people", not exclusively.  Most RP MUDs actually weed out those types because they are unlikely to stay within the confines of their role and the RP world in favor of doing something completely unrealistic (like slaughtering everything in sight just because it's there).  So, taking some of my words out of context may fit your purpose, but it doesn't make me an elitist.

Finally, in regards to your belief that I'm elitist, Eleanor Roosevelt said that "noone can make you feel inferior without your consent."  If for some reason you feel I'm elitist, ask yourself instead why you feel the way you do.

Take care,

Jason

[Molly]

Originally Posted by You go into a room and interact with a mob only to have some fool come by and slaughter it for the "experience points".

Originally Posted by I almost laugh at people that take their H&S world seriously yet don't see the irony in treating that world seriously while they cut down every NPC in their path.

Originally Posted by "RP-accepted" means "Not RP".  This is little more than "Hack and Slash but you can talk to the mobs before they die if you want to."

Forgive an old hack'n'slasher for reacting to the some of the irony of this.  

Do you roleplayers actually take the mobs in your mud so seriously that you try to "interact" with them, expecting some kind of intelligent response?


Sure, in my own Mud it would be a very good idea to talk to the Mobs instead of slaughering them, because many of them have scripts that would make them respond in a seemingly intelligent way. But this is because our mud is heavy on Quests, and many of the mobs are important parts of those. So naturally we expect our players to interact with them, rather than killing them.

But I'd never call it roleplay, even though my mud is one of the "roleplay-encouraged" that you sneer at. To me roleplay is something that involves player to player - not player to mob.

On a side note, in a pure hack'n'slash mud it is usually regarded as highly improper to slaughter "someone else's mob" - for different reasons of course, but the codex still exists.

Naturally idiotic players occur in all types of muds. I've met my fair share of them in RP-enforced muds too, even though I admit they are more frequent in H&S and PK environments.

[Pris]

I tend to try and make a lot of joke posts here 'cause I think a lot of topics get a bit out of hand and a bit of light-hearted humour is sometimes required.

Sometimes however it may come about that I wish to write a serious note.

Just so you're all aware; this is one of those times.

prof1515, you're a complete knob.

Honestly, those have got to be the worlds stupidest posts on any forum, ever. When neaderthals were writing notes to each other on cave walls they still came up with better responses than you did. Obviously the only thing you can RP is a troll.

Actually, I take that back, you could probably RP a troll but that's nothing compared to what is obviously your favourite RP character: The half elf, half vampyre prince of the elves who was outcast from his tribe as a youth but struggles through adversity and misconceptions every day in an effort to reach his birthright of the lost sword of R0X0RiNG!!11!!

Oh well, you have fun, maybe one day you'll be able to RP a polite, considerate person and then one of your lives might actually be able to engage the rest of us in some sort of proper conversation. Obviously it's never going to happen to your RL entity.

Don't reply, you got the flame you were trolling for. Just walk away and let everyone else continue the discussion they were having.

Yours,
Pris

[John]

Pris, if prof is a troll, then your... I don't know. What's worse then a troll?

In defence of part of prof's post. I see many reviews refer to console RPGs as having the "mindlessly killing monsters to gain EXP" without anyone being offended.

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Feb. 21 2004,04:37) Do you roleplayers actually take the mobs in your mud so seriously that you try to "interact" with them, expecting some kind of intelligent response?

Of course we don't expect a response. But if we expected a response whenever we RP, would we solo-RP?

And if we only RP when a player is around. Does that mean I get to go around slaughtering NPCs when no players are around? After all, there is no-one around, so therefore I don't have to roleplay

The answers to those questions are going to vary from mud-to-mud depending on the level of roleplaying that mud requires.

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Feb. 21 2004,04:37) To me roleplay is something that involves player to player - not player to mob.

Both of them are roleplaying, but the level of roleplaying is different. On one level, you have storytelling, that involves only RPing when there is someone there to appreciate it. On a higher level you have playing the role. Now I don't mean to sound elitist here. If storytelling is the level of roleplaying someone wants and the mud allows this, then good for them I personally prefer "playing the role" level of RPing Everyone's different though

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by prof1515 wrote: Let's be honest about it, the terms used to describe MUDs may be descriptive of the games' policies but they hardly reflect the reality of the capablity of that MUD in regard to RP.

Originally Posted by "RP-accepted" means "Not RP".

Originally Posted by "RP-encouraged" means "Not RP".

I tend to think of them as follows:

1) Non-RP: You shouldn't roleplay.

Example: If you roleplay here, we'll point and laugh at you.

2) RP-accepted: You can roleplaying if you like.

Example: Some people like to roleplay, and that's fine, but you don't have to.

3) RP-encouraged: You'll be rewarded if you roleplaying.

Example: We award bonus exp for roleplaying, and only proven roleplayers are allowed to become guild leaders.

4) RP-enforced: You'll be punished if you don't roleplay.

Example: We'll freeze and ban you if your roleplaying is bad, and if you talk about OOC things we'll send the lads around to your house to break your kneecaps.

Originally Posted by Anyway, as for me, I've had my fill of H&S. Just doesn't hold my interest anymore and they are occassionally played by pathetic people that take it way too seriously for what it is, a game.

Sounds like you've got it the wrong way around - a HnSer is someone who is simply playing the mud as a game. It's the roleplayers who often try to make it more than that, and people like you who wish to ban those who do treat the mud like a game. If it's possible to go around slaughtering mobs and benefiting from doing so, then clearly the person doing so is playing the game, while you are trying to enforce behavior that goes against the intention of the game. In this case you should clearly look for a game which isn't geared that way - for example a mud in which killing NPCs for no reason gives the killer no exp, and makes other (powerful) NPCs hunt them down.

There is nothing wrong with RP, nor with HnS. Some players insist on one extreme or the other, while others prefer something of a middle ground - fortunately there are plenty of muds available so everyone can find something that appeals to their own tastes.

I should also point out that a mud doesn't have to be either RP or HnS - it can be both, or it can be something else entirely. Nor does "combat-oriented" have to mean "mindless HnS", any more than "roleplaying" has to mean "mudsex".

[Kelthan]

I try to run an RP encouraged mud, at least I *thought* I was building and running an RP encouraged mud.

We talk on the OOC channels about a variety of things. People have the option to mute the channel completely or mute individual players.

We mainly kill mobs for experience. Most quests and some areas give a one-time bonus for completion just for figuring things out that a typical H&Ser might miss out on.

We have several options that offer alternatives to killing (many, many skills, crafting of weapons and arms, building homes, farming, marketing, and more) unfortuently leveling is pretty much tied into killing. I think adding experience simply for typing SAY or EMOTE is a bit silly. I'm going to attempt adding it into the skill system though.

I have some fairly complex "eliza" type scripts running that allow people to interact with several key mobs. In no way can a mob offer the complexity and range that another PC can. I don't undestand how someone can seriously expect to role-play with a mob that has a very limited capacity? For the important things, myself or the other admin will possess the mob and RP.

We're in the early stages of progress for the mud (working since August 03) so I'm certainly no expert when it comes to handling a large playerbase or anything else of that nature. I do read and gather ideas from many of you folks though and I am attempting to stay within the category of "RP-Encouraged".

I do dislike players running through town butchering everything in their path. I also dislike treating every mob on town as a high level retired adventurer. One idea we came up with and are beginning to implement is to have multiple (and usually quite low) levels of mobs in town. Kill one and you get a <town-name> killer flag set. No one in that town will do business with you anymore.

So am I enforcing RP at this point? You guys are starting to leave me more confused after reading anymore

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I do dislike players running through town butchering everything in their path. I also dislike treating every mob on town as a high level retired adventurer. One idea we came up with and are beginning to implement is to have multiple (and usually quite low) levels of mobs in town. Kill one and you get a <town-name> killer flag set. No one in that town will do business with you anymore. So am I enforcing RP at this point?

IMO no - you're not enforcing anything, you're just changing the coded rules of the game to reflect a more realistic approach to cause and affect. Something which any type of mud (RP or not) could benefit from.

In fact in my opinion, based on what you've wrote here, I probably wouldn't even consider you "RP encouraged" - from what you've said, you don't appear to actually offer any incentives for roleplaying, and therefore would fall into my interpretation of the "RP accepted" category. The additional quests, crafting, etc that you offer are likely to appeal more to a different crowd entirely from the typical HnSer or RPer.

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 21 2004,02:40) Suffice to say, RPers aren't "elitists" but merely looking for something other than mindless slaughter.

I'll make sure and tell the chess club to cease their mindless slaughter and stop to think about how a rook would feel about the tiled warfare.

In case you didn't detect my sarcasm, I'm obviously telling you that the opposite of "RP" is not "mindless slaughter". There are countless strategic games out there that require a great deal of brain power, making your polarization completely foolish.

[Molly]

I think the main problem with some of the more ardent roleplayers is that they tend to take themselves way too seriously. If they could losen up a bit and try to apply some humour to the absurd situations that sometimes occur in a Mud, they would do not only their co-players but themselves as well a big favour.

If a Mud contains combat code that allows you to score exp. points from killing mobs, obviously some players are going to kill those mobs. If you cannot handle that without sneering at the players that do, you should find a mud where all actions, including combat, are emoted.

A fact is that quite a few Muds that announce themselves as RP mandatory still have a strong element of hack'n'slash, and this sometimes can lead to funny situations. The example below is from Threshold.

(Disclaimer: This is not meant as any flame over Threshold, which I actually think is a pretty good game, in spite of my frequent clashes with Aristotle on these boards. It could have happened in any Mud of a similar type. Anyhow, here goes

One of the Newbie areas in Threshold is a small farm with some chicken and cows and other animals, that you obviously are supposed to kill. I was in a room with a cow. I was not 'interacting' with it (not even in any indecent way), just studying it, contemplating whether or not it would be safe to kill.

Now in Threshold you don't see the name of other players until you have introduced yourself to them (a somewhat lengthy procedure, but very IC). So in from the left comes a player, who on my screen looked something like 'a brown-eyed Dwarf' since we hadn't been introduced. Next this Dwarf opens his mouth and says:
'Fair maiden, would you mind if I kill your cow?'

Sure - it was bad roleplay. But after all, the Mud WAS RP enforced, and he obviously didn't want to take any chances, in case some nitpicky imm was lurking in the background.

And it gave me one of my best laughs on line that week.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Sounds like you've got it the wrong way around - a HnSer is someone who is simply playing the mud as a game.  It's the roleplayers who often try to make it more than that, and people like you who wish to ban those who do treat the mud like a game.  If it's possible to go around slaughtering mobs and benefiting from doing so, then clearly the person doing so is playing the game, while you are trying to enforce behavior that goes against the intention of the game.  In this case you should clearly look for a game which isn't geared that way - for example a mud in which killing NPCs for no reason gives the killer no exp, and makes other (powerful) NPCs hunt them down. There is nothing wrong with RP, nor with HnS.  Some players insist on one extreme or the other, while others prefer something of a middle ground - fortunately there are plenty of muds available so everyone can find something that appeals to their own tastes. I should also point out that a mud doesn't have to be either RP or HnS - it can be both, or it can be something else entirely.  Nor does "combat-oriented" have to mean "mindless HnS", any more than "roleplaying" has to mean "mudsex".

Kavir, I was referring to players that go beyond treating it as a game.  I'm talking about players that are so obsessed with getting or (even more so) staying ahead of everyone else that they resort to behavior that is not considered acceptable behavior in society such as stealing, cheating, lying, etc.  Now, in an RP MUD, where one assumes a role and portrays it, such things are "acceptable" because they're being done in-character, not because the player wishes to have the best equipment or the most money.  That player could then go on to later play another character who's a charitable priest or something.  It's about portraying the role.  But what I was refering to was not in-character behavior, it is player behavior.  Playing the game is one thing; wanting to outdo others to the point of cheating or spoiling their enjoyment even though they're not interfering with you is another.

Now, as for your accusation that "people like you who wish to ban those who do treat the mud like a game", I do not believe in punishing players that stay within the bounds of a MUD's rules.  Players that want to punish someone for simply playing a game by the rules is not something that I condone.  That applies to RPers trying to force RP on a non-RP-enforced MUD and H&Sers trying to justify random killing on RP-enforced MUDs.

Now as for there being a MUD for everyone, I agree completely.  But my point is that if you want to RP, why do so on a MUD that isn't really designed for RP?  After all, there are plenty of MUDs out there.  I mean, if you saw a restaurant and a hardware store next to each other and you happened to be hungry (and you've got plenty of cash), why go to the hardware store to eat just because they've got a vending machine inside?  Same goes for RP.  Nothing says you can't play more than one MUD, one for RP and one to indulge your appetite for H&S.

In regard to talking to mobs, Molly, no it's not all that there is to RP, but it is a good element of RP.  Why?  Well, because the mobs are there to add to the RP environment.  If an RPer's not going to interact with the MUD environment, why not just RP over AIM?

I started MUDding five years ago on H&S MUDs.  After a while, I branched out away from H&S and began playing RPI MUDs as well.  Over the years, I've migrated to RPI MUDs, solely playing them for well over a year.  I quite H&S MUDs because I didn't like playing a game that had veteran players cheating and acting vindictively just because they wanted to get ahead.  And for me, I'm just not a competitive person.  I play MUDs to relax.  The leveling and killing mobs just didn't appeal to me.  In fact, I recently realized that on one RPI MUD I've been playing for 11 monthes now that I haven't killed anything at all in all my time on the game!  I haven't had characters that had any reason to kill anything, be it hunting or self-defense.  But on an RP MUD, you don't have to do that.  That's pretty much the point and you're surrounded by players that understand that because they're the same way, they're trying to portray their character, not race to kill as much as possible.

Personally, I feel that levels and experience points have no role in RP.  With the software running things, all the calculations and data can be stored and processed without the PC ever seeing it, allowing them to focus on their role, not their statistics.  But that's a different discussion entirely.

Yui, strategy has its place in everything.  But I'm talking about the difference between assuming the role of a character and portraying it (RP) and not.  Both can involve strategy.  But there's a big polar difference between doing something because your character would do it and doing something because you would do it.  For example, on one of the MUDs I play, my character has more than enough money to purchase a house.  I would like to get a house for the character because it would make playing the role so much easier (easier to travel, easier to logout, etc.) but I have not purchased a house because my character wouldn't do it.  Their occupational requirements are contrary to settling down in one place long enough to do so and even if that wasn't the case (and I know that there are several good justifications that I could come up with for doing so), my character still has personal reasons for why they wouldn't want to buy a house and settle down in the area.  Hence, while buying a house would be easier for me, the player, I won't do it because it doesn't fit into the personality of my character.

Pris, you've either got some issues or I touched a nerve.  Whichever it may be, I hope you eventually figure it out, because it's really unbecoming.

Take care,

Jason

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 21 2004,12:05) Yui, strategy has its place in everything. But I'm talking about the difference between assuming the role of a character and portraying it (RP) and not. Both can involve strategy. But there's a big polar difference between doing something because your character would do it and doing something because you would do it. For example, on one of the MUDs I play, my character has more than enough money to purchase a house. I would like to get a house for the character because it would make playing the role so much easier (easier to travel, easier to logout, etc.) but I have not purchased a house because my character wouldn't do it. Their occupational requirements are contrary to settling down in one place long enough to do so and even if that wasn't the case (and I know that there are several good justifications that I could come up with for doing so), my character still has personal reasons for why they wouldn't want to buy a house and settle down in the area. Hence, while buying a house would be easier for me, the player, I won't do it because it doesn't fit into the personality of my character.

Duh, I know the difference between IC and OOC, and I certainly know that both can involve strategy. The polarization I'm talking about is your reference to RP as if it were the only alternative to mindless gaming activities. It isn't.

[Pris]

Prof1515, you quit H&S muds because you couldn't stand the cheating and the way some people played. That's fine, I would do exactly the same. I think all of us would. Where you go SERIOUSLY wrong, and why I label you a troll, is because you then take that experience and use it to canvas every H&S mud in existence.
That's like me saying that every RP mud is filled with the half-elf/vampyre creation that every teenage AOLer wants to make. It's gross misrepresentation designed to garner exactly the response I gave you.

You had a bad experience on a H&S mud. That doesn't define H&S muds everywhere. Any decent H&S game smacks cheaters down as harshly as any decent RP mud slaps down people who refuse to RP. You just found a bad game. It wouldn't matter if it was RP or H&S. A bad game is just a bad #### game.

Yours,
Pris