[Rastus]

I agree with Ixlone. And it seems that we're that mud that you guys are all just waiting to jump on and cheat. Hey, I never cheated. Hell, 99.9999% of the playerbase cheated. The fact is, logs can be made up and even if those logs are true there are huge chunks missing. Vassago can't make a player stop cheating and so we all suffer because of one jackass. Surprise surprise. So don't tell me WE cheat. WE don't cheat. Certain players might, I can't say they don't. I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later. Ignorance is a bliss.

[Galleus]

Originally Posted by (Rastus @ Feb. 03 2006,21:30) I agree with Ixlone. And it seems that we're that mud that you guys are all just waiting to jump on and cheat. Hey, I never cheated. Hell, 99.9999% of the playerbase cheated. The fact is, logs can be made up and even if those logs are true there are huge chunks missing. Vassago can't make a player stop cheating and so we all suffer because of one jackass. Surprise surprise. So don't tell me WE cheat. WE don't cheat. Certain players might, I can't say they don't. I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later. Ignorance is a bliss.

When that "certain player" is the owner, it rather reflects poorly on the game as a whole, regardless of the circumstances. It makes no difference whether Vassago created the voting script on his own (though he apparently lacked the technical knowledge to do so) or had to have Lothos do it for him, in the end, Vassago sought out means to cheat and did so.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (ixlone @ Feb. 03 2006,19:30) I really couldn't give a toss if he cheated or not, the fact is materia magica is easily the best game out there, all this thread is doing is throwing free advertising MM's way so thx.

Yes, that certainly explains why Vassago sent me such an angry email after I posted that web address. Do you think he was angry because he appreciates this thread and the exposure? Or do you think he might be angry because he doesn't like his cheating brought into a discussion again? I'm going to go with the latter.

--matt

[somied]

Originally Posted by This being the case, why are you still here and talking? If I thought the fix was on and corruption ruled the day, I sure as hell wouldn't be here metaphorically ****ing in the wind. I'd be out doing something less stupid, such as going outside and literally ****ing in the wind.

Because even though I disagree with the ranking system (popularity contest that doesn't reflect actual game quality) and how its rules are created, enforced, and modified, I still enjoy reading and discussing things pertaining to the MUD community every once in a while on these forums.

[The_Disciple]

Originally Posted by (Rastus @ Feb. 03 2006,21:30) I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later.

I don't think that's the case for anyone here.

There probably have been other MUDs banned from TMS at some point for cheating in a similar way, but this is the one we all remember hearing about. If you'll look at the start of this thread, the_logos wasn't trying to bash MM down. That they were caught cheating is not debatable, it is, as you say, yesterday's news. Rather, it was about the how it was done. Is it so hard to believe that in this community, people would be interested in that?

Anyway, even if people were threatened by MM (I'd personally never heard of it until they were caught cheating and that whole debacle), I doubt they would be now. If a person does great and benevolent works their whole life, but then is caught trying to pick up a twelve year old boy in a chat room, they'll forever after be just a child molester in the public eye, whether it's fair or not. Cheating to get ahead on TMS is kind of like that. Whether MM is a good or bad MUD, no one will ever after know or care, here -- if you mention it, people will just be like 'Oh, that cheater MUD?'

Whether that's fair or not, that's the way it is. No one feels threatened by a cheater MUD anymore than Mother Theresa is worried the child molester is going to edge her out for sainthood.

[an anonymous coward]

Whatever, Rastus.  You cheated in the game for years and were rewarded by being placed on the staff and being given an Immortal.

Nice job toeing the company line, though.

[somied]

Originally Posted by Nope. We stopped as soon as the rules were changed. We are sticklers for the rules and despite what some exciteable types might claim, we don't cheat. --matt

I guess the first few 'insider traders' should be considered wholesome, blameless, upstanding people like you, since after all, there was no rule against it until they did it.

You don't actually have to break a rule in order to be doing something immoral or unethical.

Originally Posted by I think you should decide whether the site is supposed to be a traffic exchange (which is how its set up) or whether it's genuinely supposed to rate muds (in which case I wish you the best of luck in such a quixotic enterprise.) Assuming it's the former (and all signs certainly point to that), to whose benefit is it to make increasingly restrictive rules on voting practices? Traffic is traffic and the only people I ever see complaining about voting practices are an insignificant percentage (far less than 1%) of the site's users.

Well isn't this interesting. Here you are quite publically announcing how you think "traffic is traffic" regardless of voting practices (read: cheating), which is quite peculiar considering how often you're found insulting games who use questionable voting practices.

In fact, it seems as though you like to dance on that fine line between legal/illegal, right/wrong, etc. As I believe KaVir once said, you're more interested in following the letter of the rules rather than the spirit - which to me, is no better than those who break them.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (somied @ Feb. 04 2006,13:19) In fact, it seems as though you like to dance on that fine line between legal/illegal, right/wrong, etc. As I believe KaVir once said, you're more interested in following the letter of the rules rather than the spirit - which to me, is no better than those who break them.

Yes, I'm completely interested in the letter of the law, because the letter of the law is what the law is. Different people have different versions of the "spirit of the law," and there's no valid way to claim that your personal interpretation of the "spirit of the law" is any more valid than anyone else's.

What I (and the site owner as far as I can tell) care about are what the rules are according to the person who interprets them (the site owner). You're free to inject your opinion on what you think the rules should be, but they aren't until the site owner says they are. Similarly, it doesn't matter a bit what you think about whether there is, say, a constitutional right to privacy in the US. What ultimately matters, and what IS the law is what the final interpreters (the US Supreme Court in the US) say. As far as I know, Adam (site owner) has never accused us of breaking any rules here, whereas MM was kicked off for breaking rules.

In any case, it'd be nice to see a little moderation here. What I personally have to do with this thread is a little beyond me. It's quite off-topic.

--matt

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by (somied @ Feb. 04 2006,13:19) Well isn't this interesting. Here you are quite publically announcing how you think "traffic is traffic" regardless of voting practices (read: cheating), which is quite peculiar considering how often you're found insulting games who use questionable voting practices.

Using bots to vote isn't "traffic". There's no one coming to the site, and thus, none of the muds listed here even get a glance from real players. That's why this kind of vote cheating is so harmful to the people interested in this issue. One person is generating hundreds and hundreds of votes for one mud that is sending no traffic at all.

Regardless of what you think of the_logos personally, this issue has very little to do with him except that he managed to find that article. Many of us have always wondered exactly how MM pulled off the obvious voting bot.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Feb. 03 2006,15:13) Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 03 2006,14:54) Having tried all the MUDs that have consistently appeared on the TMS Top 100, I have given Materia Magica two attempts.  Both times I've been as unimpressed as possible.  The word pathetic doesn't really describe my feelings toward what they offer.  So, claims that Materia Magica didn't cheat from individuals that also claim it's a good MUD make me laugh. They cheated.  Synoozer should boot them off permanently.  One less piece of trash cluttering up the list. Take care, Jason I think it's sad that you're so willing to conflate "having a different opinion" with "being a liar." Your personal opinion on MM's quality is precisely as valid as anyone else's (including the posters defending MM), and is beside the point of this thread. To claim that because someone's opinion on the quality of MM is different from yours they must, thus, be lying about something else is just as silly as claiming that because someone likes Neopolitan ice cream (I think it's crap), they must be lying about how Neopolitan ice cream is made. MM is a popular game. They've obviously done a good job of making a game that a lot of people consider quality. They were also booted off for cheating. I can't see what one has to do with the other. --matt

What's sad is you misquoting me. Nowhere do I say "being a liar". That's your own petty twisting of my words. What I said was that claims from someone that thinks Materia Magica is a great game obviously are coming from a biased source, a source that is unlikely to consider fully that their MUD was caught cheating. It's not lying, it's just denial based on a biased, favorable opinion.

Lying would be claiming I said something that I didn't when you know well enough that I never said that in the first place.

Take care,

Jason

[the_logos]

I think it's sad that you're projecting your apparent inability to understand that it is possible to like a product and still be critical about it or its management onto everyone else. I like Google. I think what Google is doing in China sucks. I'm quite sure many MM users are capable of engaging in the same sort of distinction. From their point of view, they have no knowledge of the cheating. They themselves didn't cheat, and no doubt Vassage says he didn't authorize any cheating. They may not even have been playing MM when the incident happened, and so from their point of view, saying MM cheated may just be the kind of thing they've been assured is a lie all along. They have no reason to trust anyone here more than Vassago, for instance.

--matt

[Aardwolf]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Feb. 01 2006,15:33) Awhile ago (a year? 2 years? I don't remember), Materia Magica was kicked off TMS for rampant cheating. They, of course, claimed innocence. Another TMS user kindly sent me this link, which purports to be from the guy that helped MM cheat and lays out how he did it, including the script he used. http://www.pkzone.org/index.php?nid=176 --matt

Hmm, I always figured he was doing it using a bank of anonymous proxy IP addresses ... amazing that they were all from the same subnet/ISP and it still went unnoticed for so long.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Feb. 04 2006,16:23) I think it's sad that you're projecting your apparent inability to understand that it is possible to like a product and still be critical about it or its management onto everyone else. I like Google. I think what Google is doing in China sucks. I'm quite sure many MM users are capable of engaging in the same sort of distinction. From their point of view, they have no knowledge of the cheating. They themselves didn't cheat, and no doubt Vassage says he didn't authorize any cheating. They may not even have been playing MM when the incident happened, and so from their point of view, saying MM cheated may just be the kind of thing they've been assured is a lie all along. They have no reason to trust anyone here more than Vassago, for instance. --matt

And again, where did I say they were lying? Hmmm?

I'm not projecting my "apparent inability to understand that it is possible to like a product and still be critical about it" as the person I was refering to wasn't critical of the product they liked. If they had, they'd be a good example of someone relying critical analysis rather than preconceived bias. But that's not what they did. And it's sad that you keep twisting the situation in order to try and insult me rather than recognize that.

But I do agree, they have no reason to believe anyone here any more than anyone on the MUD. However, I ask again. Where did I say they were lying as opposed to simply not being informed or having a biased opinion?

Jason

[Threshold]

What I remember most about this incident was the graph that showed MM's voting.

It looked like stair steps. They would go for 6-10 hours averaging like 2 votes per hour. Then they would have like 100-200 votes in a 10 minute period. Then they'd go another huge span of time with barely any votes.

It was incredibly obvious that a computer script was doing the voting. If indeed Vasago denied he was cheating (I don't recall one way or another), then you really have to just laugh. No rational person would deny they were cheating when faced with that evidence.

As someone else mentioned, the thing about this type of cheating that was particularly bad was the fact that it was not even real traffic. Thus, MM was benefiting from the traffic everyone else was sending ("risking" their own players) and yet they were not risking anything to get all of their votes.

If I recall, there was a period of time where MM was getting these massive vote surges despite not even having a vote icon on their web page. That was when they definitely didn't want to risk even a single player coming to TMS and possibly trying a different game. Too funny.

[somied]

Originally Posted by In any case, it'd be nice to see a little moderation here. What I personally have to do with this thread is a little beyond me. It's quite off-topic.

I brought you personally into the discussion because it seems highly relevant to me when someone finds it necessary to debase others for things they themselves have done before.

Materia Magica got votes illegally and was banned because the rule was already set.

Achaea got votes illegally and was pardoned because the rule was not clear enough yet - after which it was made more clear so you could stop dancing around the "subjective" (as you regard it) spirit of the rule.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...

[Milawe]

How the heck is having 1 person generating hundreds of votes by proxy even comparable to spamming your own playerbase? Spamming your own playerbase only hurts yourself and your own players because you could annoy the crap out of them enough that they stop playing your game, and you're sending them to a site that offers the same type of games that you run.

What MM did more than broke the spirit of the rules; it completely and utterly demolished it. Comparing the two really lets MM off light.

[Solus]

Originally Posted by It was incredibly obvious that a computer script was doing the voting. If indeed Vasago denied he was cheating (I don't recall one way or another), then you really have to just laugh. No rational person would deny they were cheating when faced with that evidence.

Even if there was cheating, Vassago didn't have to be behind it. A player wanting his favorite game to be number one can cheat without the admin's permission or knowing.

Originally Posted by If I recall, there was a period of time where MM was getting these massive vote surges despite not even having a vote icon on their web page.

I remember this since there was several comments about this on Materia Magica's forums. In short, the person accusing Materia Magica of not having an icon was incorrect. He looked at the wrong spot. Materia Magica's voting icon was on its message board page.
The most popular section of Materia Magica is its message board, which may be why the icon was there. Because that is the most popular page on Materia Magica's site, more of Materia Magica's players would see it there.

Originally Posted by How the heck is having 1 person generating hundreds of votes by proxy even comparable to spamming your own playerbase?

Because of your last sentence, I don't know if your saying MM spammed the player base, or if that other MUD did. If you mean MM, there was no spam in game. Players did do a bit of spamming on the message board though, in hopes that they could get more players to vote. (Thus why I was surprised when MM was accused of cheating. There were quite a few players chanting 'vote! vote! vote!' on the message board, and the occasional yell in game from players saying to vote.)