[rendekar]

Originally Posted by Threshold I really don't consider that the "most fair" gaming experience. I have a job, kids, and a lot of real world responsibilities. I'm not some kid living in his grandma's basement, or some guy living off a disability settlement, who can play 15-20 hours per day. I don't consider it "fair" that in your garden variety MMO my superior gaming skill cannot hope to match the sheer amounts of time these other people throw at the game. So, what you described may be your version of fair, but I certainly do not think it is objectively the "most fair" gaming experience by a long shot.

i really consider %100 free games or in other words 'completely free' games (that we all know! which muds rightfully fulfill this description) offers the most fair gaming experience..that description is invaluable for many players but makes no sense at all for many others..well, iam not the type for pay-for-perks games but i have great respect for them.some of them are so popular, have some brilliant special-client support and iam sure have the potential to attract even WOW players.but for many mudders,the game dies instantly if they get in-game benefit with their donations.well, they continue to donate for the game, just they don't want any benefit..

if you work hard with a decent intelligence( with some other factors) in the world you live in, you can get the goods,riches,success whatever quicker than others(like real world in most cases[not all])..(you can't get money from forgotten realms)..that is not my concern what is s/he in real life as soon as s/he keeps doing all the deeds ICly.

i meant this with 'most fair' ..no offence to your mud, just my thoughts.

[cratylus]

Threshold wrote:

I know exactly why this discussion crops up every 6-12 months. A very few people decide they are jealous of someone else's success, or the number of players they have, or something of that nature, and they want to take a shot at them. So they lash out in this one little way in the misguided hope that they can obtain players for their own mud they feel they would not have gained otherwsise.

I am not jealous of Nodeka. A very good point was raised about the
claim that this mud is 100% free. That is, doubt was raised, the doubt was
reasonable, and it was discussed. I am not certain that jealousy enters into it.

I can tell you that I have no interest at all in getting players. This is
because I don't actually have a mud. The closest thing to an open mud
I run is a demo for my codebase. I gain nothing from getting players
from commercial muds to abandon their games.

I am as ardent an advocate for a clarified listing system as any of
the mud admins who might better fit your stereotype. This is not
because I gain from my position. It is because the position I share with
them has merit.

I'm not sure why you're resorting to claiming some sort of untoward motivation
for supporting a clarified listing. It seems to me you're taking this personally,
perhaps. If so, I don't think it is warranted.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index

[Edit: corrected typo. It's late, I can be forgiven. 24AUG2007 2315]

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by cratylus Threshold wrote: I am not jealous of Nodeka. A very good point was raised about the claim that this mud is 100% free. That is, doubt was raised, the doubt was reasonable, and it was discussed. I am not certain that jealousy enters into it. I can tell you that I have no interest at all in getting players. This is because I don't actually have a mud. The closest thing to an open mud I run is a demo for my codebase. I gain nothing from getting players from commercial muds to abandon their games. I am as ardent an advocate for a clarified listing system as any of the mud admins who might better fit your stereotype. This is not because I gain from my position. It is because the position I share with them has merit. I'm not sure why you're resorting to claiming some sort of untoward motivation for supporting a clarified listing. It seems to me you're taking this personally, perhaps. If so, I don't think it is warranted. -Crat LPMuds.net - Index [Edit: corrected typo. It's late, I can be forgiven. 24AUG2007 2315]

I don't think he was pointing you out, merely for sake of arguement saying that some people only bring issues like this up out of jealousy/some other personal reason.

[Molly]

Originally Posted by the_logos I trust, however, that since we're after information, nobody is going to object to another search category, along the lines of: [1]. Professionals in charge. [2]. Hobbyists in charge. Of course there's never going to be complete agreement about the meaning of those words but then, nobody who is supporting more information ala donation/payment collection can have a problem with that given that there's not agreement here about the meaning of the word free, right? --matt

Originally Posted by Threshold I know exactly why this discussion crops up every 6-12 months. A very few people decide they are jealous of someone else's success, or the number of players they have, or something of that nature, and they want to take a shot at them. So they lash out in this one little way in the misguided hope that they can obtain players for their own mud they feel they would not have gained otherwsise. .

Does anyone else get a sense of Deja vu here?

Lasher, in case you still wonder, this is what I was referring to.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Molly Does anyone else get a sense of Deja vu here? Lasher, in case you still wonder, this is what I was referring to.

So, you're against providing more information for MUD searches? Why? Do you have something to hide? That is, after all, exactly the implication you've leveled at those of us who find adding a handful of revenue gathering options to MUD searches to be insufficiently descriptive?

Or am I misreading your sarcasm? I mean, your MUD, for instance, is run as a hobby. Don't you think some players might want to know that ahead of time? If your motive for wanting revenue gathering options to be added to MUD searches is, as you claim, to help the players by providing more information, then don't you think that players would like to be able to search for MUDs that are specifically run by hobbyists as opposed to professionals? Is it impossible to imagine that some people might want to play only one or the other, for whatever reason? (Perhaps they want to support MUDs as a hobby, perhaps they want an experience that includes full-time staff, etc.)

Or is it that you think that perhaps "hobbyist" doesn't accurately capture what your MUD is about (I happen to agree it doesn't). Imagine feeling that way! Oh wait....

--matt

[Samson]

I would gladly accept Matt's professionals/hobyists checkboxes if it meant we also get accurate labels for the kind of pay-for-perks MUD he runs - and there was some means of enforcing this.

Otherwise I suppose I can throw in a listing for Alsherok and say it's run by professionals. You failed to specify what type of professionals, so I feel the fact that I'm an IT Professional qualifies me to choose that option instead of the hobbyist option. So I'd be a "Professionally run mud that accepts no payments or donations. IE: 100% free." See? It is possible for professionals to run free MUDs!

Of course, my feeling is Matt offered the pair of options up rhetorically because he doesn't like the payment classifications and doesn't want to be trapped by an accurate one for his game. My cynical opinion

Cratylus,

I think your scale could use another "payment optional" definition:

Payments and/or donations accepted but not solicited. No in-game rewards offered.

There are games who will gladly accept offers of cash but aren't actively seeking them out or giving players rewards for doing so. I mean, I'm not about to refuse it if someone logs on to Alsherok and decides I need $50 just because.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Samson I would gladly accept Matt's professionals/hobyists checkboxes if it meant we also get accurate labels for the kind of pay-for-perks MUD he runs - and there was some means of enforcing this.

Someone didn't read the thread!

I've already stated that I've dropped objection to Lasher's proposed checkboxes.

I proposed the professional/hobbyist checkboxes because if information is good then surely that's important information.

Otherwise I suppose I can throw in a listing for Alsherok and say it's run by professionals. You failed to specify what type of professionals, so I feel the fact that I'm an IT Professional qualifies me to choose that option instead of the hobbyist option.

I'm not sure why you're intentionally misconstruing what I said. If it makes you happy though, say "Run by Professional MUD Admins". Being a professional X does not make you a professional Y. Being a professional IT guy does not make you a professional MUD admin any more than playing pickup football makes you a professional football player.

Of course, my feeling is Matt offered the pair of options up rhetorically because he doesn't like the payment classifications and doesn't want to be trapped by an accurate one for his game. My cynical opinion

You should probably read the whole thread.

Do you not want to be "trapped" by an accurate label of "hobbyist" or "amateur" for your game? They are both accurate labels and yet, perhaps you feel that those terms do not communicate an accurate reflection of the totality of the experience you offer?

--matt

[Hephos]

I have to object a little to a tag "professionals" and "amateurs".

WHAT is going to separate them? Are you a pro if you are the creator of several commercial mmorpgs and a millionaire from it, BUT you have a free mud as well listed here? Are you a pro if you have 10 years of education in computer programming or working in support?

Or are you a pro if you are hired by the mud to sit and answer questions in help channels, and spend your other time working at wall mart?

Well... imo no such classification is really showing much. I would rather see:

[] paid staff
[] unpaid staff

(and even that is pretty bad... are you paid if you get below minimum wages? or are you paid if you get just a silly amount now and then etc etc...)

[Samson]

I intentionally misconstrued what you said ( perhaps this means I understood you loud and clear though ) because I was making a point. I did so sarcastically because I know full well you already know what it means to be pay-for-perks but were deliberately wanting to be classified as free. I think that's just as deceitful as my rhetorical scenario where I classify mine as run by professionals because I'm an IT professional for a living.

BTW, I did read the whole thread.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Hephos I have to object a little to a tag "professionals" and "amateurs". WHAT is going to separate them? Are you a pro if you are the creator of several commercial mmorpgs and a millionaire from it, BUT you have a free mud as well listed here? Are you a pro if you have 10 years of education in computer programming or working in support?

So, you mean that there's a large grey area involved in terms of what's likely to be relevant to a player?

That is exactly my point.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Samson I intentionally misconstrued what you said ( perhaps this means I understood you loud and clear though ) because I was making a point. I did so sarcastically because I know full well you already know what it means to be pay-for-perks but were deliberately wanting to be classified as free. I think that's just as deceitful as my rhetorical scenario where I classify mine as run by professionals because I'm an IT professional for a living.

Pay-for-perks describes a revenue collection method. Free describes the ability to use a product without paying. They are not mutually exclusive. The law agrees with me as demonstrated by the FTC's guidelines on using the word 'free.' Common usage agrees with me as is evidenced by any number of examples from public parks to worlds like Runescape (with far more players than all text MUDs put together) to broadcast television.

Again, what you're are talking about has to do with your conception of 'fair', not whether something is free or not.

Also, I didn't sink to calling you deceitful. I just asked why you are intentionally misconstruing what I said (which you've admitted you were). Why do you need to sink to insults when you disagree with my position? Let's stick to actually arguing based on a chain of reasoning please.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by the_logos Do you not want to be "trapped" by an accurate label of "hobbyist" or "amateur" for your game? They are both accurate labels and yet, perhaps you feel that those terms do not communicate an accurate reflection of the totality of the experience you offer?

Exactly what sort of professionals is a valid question though. Paying someone technically makes them professional, but does that signify any aptitude or certification/qualification in the field you're paying them to do?

My MUD has a professional historian writing the historical background, a professional coder implementing the code changes, and a professional artist implementing the skilled crafts, many of which are artistic in nature. I'd wager that most of the so-called "medieval" MUDs here, including the commercial MUDs, don't have as many aspects of their game staffed by professionals from that field. Additionally, I've offered several of my staff assistance in their research by purchasing materials and resources for them and letting them keep the books, software, etc as compensation for their time and dedication to making the game. In essence, I've paid money to the staff to advance the project. As they're received something for their services, they're now technically professionals. However, that would make Matt's search choices inaccurate as far as differentiating between the types of games he's attempting to classify because my game is nothing like those games to which he's labeled "professional". If anything, the minimum standards for every aspect of my game exceed the maximum standards I've seen on any Viagra* MUD. Hence the term "professional" is entirely inaccurate as a description for such games.

Given the vague nature of the word "professional" and the lack of (m)any more professional of staff on non-hobbyist MUDs than you can technically find on many "hobbyist" MUDs, it would be far more accurate to instead use the following terms as search options:

[ ] Commercial
[ ] Hobbyist

This would be accurate since the Viagra MUDs and the like are indeed commercial, ie operating for the goal of generating revenue, while the hobbyist MUDs are not. Instead of loaded phrases meant to confuse, the difference between the two is made clear by the nature of why they're in operation. The former are operated for the purpose of generating revenue, the latter are run for sake of their art and the enjoyment that doing so brings their staff.

Take care,

Jason

* Viagra MUD is my pet term for "pay-for-perks" games since the motivation for use of both is in many ways the same for many players: making themselves more than they are without the purchased product, be it a pill or a perk.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by prof1515 Exactly what sort of professionals is a valid question though. Paying someone My MUD has a professional historian writing the historical background, a professional coder implementing the code changes, and a professional artist implementing the skilled crafts, many of which are artistic in nature. I'd wager that most of the so-called "medieval" MUDs here, including the commercial MUDs, don't have as many aspects of their game staffed by professionals from that field. Additionally, I've offered several of my staff assistance in their research by purchasing materials and resources for them and letting them keep the books, software, etc as compensation for their time and dedication to making the game. In essence, I've paid money to the staff to advance the project.

It's funny, but if I attempted to dissemble like that about what free means, you'd jump all over me.

If anything, the minimum standards for every aspect of my game exceed the maximum standards I've seen on any Viagra* MUD. Hence the term "professional" is entirely inaccurate as a description for such games.

Standards have nothing to do with one definition of professional (which I can choose to use just as you can choose to use one definition of the word free). It's whether you're paid to do something or not. If you want to pick, though, we can just change it to "Full-time professional mud admins."

You're going to dance around the meaning of that too and parse it as well as you can, because you don't like the implications that such an overly simplistic description of the care with which you run your game generates.

Again, gosh, imagine feeling that way....

--matt

[Molly]

Originally Posted by the_logos Or am I misreading your sarcasm? --matt

What sarcasm?
I think my post was pretty straightforward.
Unless of course you are referring to the quotes I used?

[Newworlds]

I seriously boggle at the concern over games that are free, games that have a paying system, and most of all advertisements on TMS. Come on people, is it truly that hard to just go and play ten or twenty muds that "look" like the type of mud you enjoy and find out for yourself if the value for the product is there? That is what "test driving" is all about. The issue over who says they are 100% free, 20% free, or cost your first born to play is irrellevant, because no matter what you put in your mud bio, the truth is only found when you actually play the game and decide if it is what you want whether it be free or not.

And on the ad note: Why in the world would anyone care who advertises or who does not on this site? The simple fact that we signature our posts here is advertisement. The fact that we talk about our muds or other muds is advertisement. Have a little respect for the Forums here, the people who post here and the people who pay to keep this place running.

I have played at least 5 of the games on the top forty list here and a few not on the list at all. And every one of them have things of value in them, but like I said a page or two ago, games that have a paid staff can offer a certain level of consideration to the players that in many cases can not be offered from games with a volunteer administration and staff--You get what you pay for.

It is up to you to decide what you want in a mud. That's all.