[Nodeka]

EDIT: This originally began as an ad for Nodeka and grew into a discussion on the definition of "free" in games. With the blessing of the original poster I have moved it into its own thread -- Lasher.

For those interested, Nodeka is now no longer requiring donations to remort. Below is a list of only a few things we have to offer. Visit us on the web at: Nodeka :: Crossroad to a Thousand Journeys Or on the MUD at nodeka.com port 23 N [O D E K] A o Auto-updating REAL-TIME over head map displaying TRUE field of vision o 500+ skills and spells including: rune-ring, mental tempest, hammer o 126 classes including: monk, ataelos, khehusod, witch, druid o 80+ races such as: Onillin, Ryven, Rhras, Gaa'el, Jadior, Red drake o A quest system that'll blow your mind: o Story-like quests that have multiple outcomes o A morality system based on YOUR quest DECISIONS o Stored all completed quests - see summaries whenever you want o Tracked open quests and current state - pick up wherever you left off (have tons of open quests and never forget where you are) o A skill/spell system using 'preventions' that create not only a fast paced, but a highly strategic, combat system o Customizable output - including shrinking and expanding combat output and hiding things you don't want to see o 5 Huge continents o 100+ Areas covering villages, cities, dungeons, bogs, plains, mountains, oceans, lakes, jungles and much, much more. o PK protection for new players. o Complex unrestricted player killing that requires strategy and skill o Limitless player growth o Craftable Equipment o Virtually every aspect of combat, output, displays can be customized in color and look o So much more, come give us a try!

[KaVir]

For those interested, Nodeka is now 100% free to play.

Ah, nice. I think that's a good move from a (player vs player) competitive perspective, as I was always rather wary after reading reviews like this one: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/r...splay&num=8244

o Auto-updating REAL-TIME over head map displaying TRUE field of vision

I can't seem to activate the extended map though...how can I view it?

[Ide]

I'm at a loss here. I've never played Nodeka or read a review for it. Looking at the website and the list of features in the OP, this looks like a very cool mud, one I would definitely try. Reading the review that KaVir posted the link to, this looks like a mud I will never try (not just because of the donations mentioned -- the review seems to disparage the areas and quest system as well). Since this is a promotional thread anyway, maybe the OP can respond to the review?

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by KaVir Ah, nice. I think that's a good move from a (player vs player) competitive perspective, as I was always rather wary after reading reviews like this one: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/r...splay&num=8244 I can't seem to activate the extended map though...how can I view it?

You do not need the extended map to play nodeka it is playable and enjoyable with the normal map. The extended map is simply a conveinance for your donation.

The extended map is a feature that requires a 2 dollar donation for a month or a 20 dollar donation for the year.
Basically the extended map is a much larger version of the normal map.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by Ide I'm at a loss here. I've never played Nodeka or read a review for it. Looking at the website and the list of features in the OP, this looks like a very cool mud, one I would definitely try. Reading the review that KaVir posted the link to, this looks like a mud I will never try (not just because of the donations mentioned -- the review seems to disparage the areas and quest system as well). Since this is a promotional thread anyway, maybe the OP can respond to the review?

Nodeka used to require donations for remorting- it no longer does.
Yes you get roleplaying points for donating, there is talk of removing that- however nodeka is not a RPG you do not roleplay. Roleplay was tried and removed- however something had to be done with the points that were awarded for people who did roleplay at the time. Currently roleplay points come from questing and player killing.

Practices can be bought with platinum( the games currency ) or sun stones( reward for donation also awarded via Player Killing/questing ), statistics can be increased via sun stones as well- which can come from questing/player killing as well.

We currently have been having lots of 'mud events' and many more are planned for the future.

As far as area's go I can't argue there are some boring and honestly lame areas. Nodeka however generally has thought out areas that have a story with them.

Come check us out, you will get hooked and love it. Nodeka is always growing, sometimes the changes come in small steps, sometimes in huge steps.

I am more than happy to answer and posts left here. And yes this thread was to bring attention to nodeka, but not in the "omg we so rock come playz" more of the "Hey everyone that always wanted to play nodeka but refused due to donations, guess what- come play!"

As a PS: we have been donation free to remort for quite a few months now, now that it has been a while I felt it was time to share on a global scale.

[Nodeka]

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/r...splay&num=7839

Here is a game review,

Search here for many others game and personal:
http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/r...?action=search

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Nodeka You do not need the extended map to play nodeka it is 100% playable and enjoyable with the normal map. The extended map is simply a conveinance for donators. The extended map is a feature that requires a 2 dollar donation for a month or a 20 dollar donation for the year. Basically the extended map is a much larger version of the normal map.

Ah, then I misunderstood your original post - by "100% free to play" I assumed you meant that 100% of the content could be earned or accessed for free (i.e., without making purchases). Otherwise you could have just argued in the past that the mud was "100% free to play" on the basis that you don't need to remort in order to play and enjoy the game.

As someone who is interested in competitive play, being able to compete on equal footing with paying customers is important to me - but far more important still is that I at least have the potential to earn everything that a paying customer can buy. That's what I thought you were suggesting, and thus my reply.

Once again I really wish we could all come up with some standard terminology for the different payment methods. If pay-for-perks with payment required to unlock certain features is "100% free to play", what do we call pay-for-perks where everything can also be unlocked through normal play? What about muds where there is a registration cost, but where you can still literally play for free? Or muds where there are no costs at all? No wonder the newbies get confused.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by KaVir Ah, then I misunderstood your original post - by "100% free to play" I assumed you meant that 100% of the content could be earned or accessed for free (i.e., without making purchases). Otherwise you could have just argued in the past that the mud was "100% free to play" on the basis that you don't need to remort in order to play and enjoy the game. As someone who is interested in competitive play, being able to compete on equal footing with paying customers is important to me - but far more important still is that I at least have the potential to earn everything that a paying customer can buy. That's what I thought you were suggesting, and thus my reply. Once again I really wish we could all come up with some standard terminology for the different payment methods. If pay-for-perks with payment required to unlock certain features is "100% free to play", what do we call pay-for-perks where everything can also be unlocked through normal play? What about muds where there is a registration cost, but where you can still literally play for free? Or muds where there are no costs at all? No wonder the newbies get confused.

Everything except for the extended map can be unlocked via normal game play.

In fact you can function and player kill without the map at all and be on the competitive edge- but that would require some dedication and not all are up to the task. In the end it boils down to a larger overhead map as a reward for those that help to keep Nodeka running.

[cratylus]

Originally Posted by Nodeka Everything except for the extended map can be unlocked via normal game play. In fact you can function and player kill without the map at all and be on the competitive edge- but that would require some dedication and not all are up to the task...

If I understand you correctly, this is a PK mud where you are
at a PK disadvantage if you do not donate money. Is this correct?

If so, it seems disingenuous to suggest it is free.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by cratylus If I understand you correctly, this is a PK mud where you are at a PK disadvantage if you do not donate money. Is this correct? If so, it seems disingenuous to suggest it is free.

Well there are all sorts of things that give advantages, aren't there?

Some people have a ridiculous amount of free time.

Some have a multi-game clan they use to slaughter in PvP wherever they go.

I know very little about Nodeka, but it doesn't sound like this enhanced map (or the other perks) are grossly overpowering. Most of them sound like they are things you can get in game by other means.

So I don't think it is disingenuous to call it free. But again, let me give the disclaimer that I have never played Nodeka and cannot say this for certain. I am speaking only of my general impression.

[rendekar]

it looks like donate-mandatory game turned into a donate-accepted or donate-enforced.

whichever, good luck with the changes

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by cratylus If I understand you correctly, this is a PK mud where you are at a PK disadvantage if you do not donate money. Is this correct? If so, it seems disingenuous to suggest it is free. -Crat LPMuds.net - Index

That is incorrect. Donating doesn't give you a PK advantage.

[cratylus]

Originally Posted by Nodeka That is incorrect. Donating doesn't give you a PK advantage.

I misunderstood then. My bad.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by cratylus I misunderstood then. My bad. -Crat LPMuds.net - Index

The only way donating really allows you to "get ahead" is when you donate on others for ingame payment. Which can happen on any game- The ingame rich selling ingame currency/items for real life goods( in this case a monetary donation )

Its essentially a get rich quick scheme- and it takes quite a bit of donating on others if you want to speed to the top( not to mention time.)

Im more than happy to discuss with anyone if they have questions, comments, and/or concerns.

[Newworlds]

Just observation.

I believe most players tend to think that any advantage whether it be through registration, donation, or extra perks for donating time to create, etc, is always viewed as "unfair". The trouble is, Games aren't meant to ever be perfectly fair and can't be.

It is impossible to make any game online completely fair. To do this you would have to restrict online "time" on the game to each player to an hour setting like 2 hours per day (as stated by Threshold, some people have a rediculous amount of time to play), you would have to limit typing speed by all players to say 40wpm, else it would be unfair because players type faster, you would have to limit vocabulary, because those with a high educational level have an unfair advantage in an rp environment, or mathematical advantage in a meta-gaming environment.

In short, nothing is fair so the best we can do is make it fun.

[rendekar]

a mud that offers no in-game benefits(in-game items, house, skill boost, unlocking extra areas) via donations is a COMPLETELY FREE mud and gives the most fair-gaming experience.it's that plain, simple..

if a player(all players) is doing all his/her deeds ICly, doesn't put any real life scent into his/her character and if s/he has the right to have more free time in real life and that's quite fair and nothing to do with the game itself.

[Newworlds]

What you are saying is simply an "opinion" just like mine was. Free can mean any number of things. Completely Free means that you don't pay to play. That can mean, completely free for 30 days, completely free for a year, completely free for forever. Just because a game is completely free, doesn't mean it cannot have benefits for those who support it.

This is an age old argument I've seen on many forums including many Mud's personal forums. Your game is Free if one can play it without paying upfront. Otherwise it is pay to play. Neither represents a better environment, however, I will say from past experience (over 10 years of playing and progging a variety of games), if a person never pays for what they play, they take zero ownership in it and many times end up having a lack of respect and responsibility both for the game and their character.

While NW is free, I admire many of the games that do have registrations and have a good solid players who support them. I am one who supports pay to play or registry games and will continue to do so and give credit where credit is do.

Newworlds RPG

http://www.newworlds-rpg.com

[Molly]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I believe most players tend to think that any advantage whether it be through registration, donation, or extra perks for donating time to create, etc, is always viewed as "unfair". The trouble is, Games aren't meant to ever be perfectly fair and can't be.

I think what most posters on this Forum react negatively to is not the pay-for-perks per se, but the fact that the Muds that use them like to advertise themselves as 'free to play', 'totally free', and in Nodeka's case '100 % free to play'. If a pay-for-perks game is '100 % free to play', how do you describe the Muds where you cannot donate, or in any other way pay for in-game benefits? No wonder new players get confused.

This has been an old issue for years, and still tends to fester many discussions, since it was never resolved. The general tactic from the commercial games seems to be to claim that the opponents are against all commercial Muds, which is not the case. What people are against is misleading information to potential new players about the nature of a game.

During the old regime, there was a request from a pretty large number of members, about adapting the search engine, so that it would be possible to search for truly 100 % free games, versus the many variations of pay-to-play and pay-for-perks that exist. The request was turned down back then, but since there is a new management now, here is a new request.

Could we please have such a search engine implemented?

If the intent really is to make the site more attractive to players and not just to Mud Admin, this would be a very valid improvement. A service like this would certainly be appreciated by those players who get confused by the present conditions. On top of that, it would also once and for all get rid of an old issue, that tends to pop up from time to time.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by Molly I think what most posters on this Forum react negatively to is not the pay-for-perks per se, but the fact that the Muds that use them like to advertise themselves as 'free to play', 'totally free', and in Nodeka's case '100 % free to play'. If a pay-for-perks game is '100 % free to play', how do you describe the Muds where you cannot donate, or in any other way pay for in-game benefits? No wonder new players get confused. This has been an old issue for years, and still tends to fester many discussions, since it was never resolved. The general tactic from the commercial games seems to be to claim that the opponents are against all commercial Muds, which is not the case. What people are against is misleading information to potential new players about the nature of a game. During the old regime, there was a request from a pretty large number of members, about adapting the search engine, so that it would be possible to search for truly 100 % free games, versus the many variations of pay-to-play and pay-for-perks that exist. The request was turned down back then, but since there is a new management now, here is a new request. Could we please have such a search engine implemented? If the intent really is to make the site more attractive to players and not just to Mud Admin, this would be a very valid improvement. A service like this would certainly be appreciated by those players who get confused by the present conditions. On top of that, it would also once and for all get rid of an old issue, that tends to pop up from time to time.

If you want to get picky there is no 100% free to play game out there, there is always a cost. My opinion is that if you do not have to pay in order to access all of the games features or do not have to pay for subscription then it is free.

Paying for perks is exactly that- paying for perks.

I like your idea of being able to search for 'free muds' though, however as it boils down to someones opinion who is to say its truly free? I pay for the interweb, so the game isn't really free by proxy.

Just my opinion and everyones will differ.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by Molly how do you describe the Muds where you cannot donate, or in any other way pay for in-game benefits?...

Donation accepted
Donation not accepted

^
There is a possible way of describing the muds.

[Molly]

Originally Posted by Nodeka Donation accepted Donation not accepted ^ There is a possible way of describing the muds.

Good suggestion.

So can we please have a search engine that singles out those options?

And maybe another one for those pay-for-perks that are not labelled as 'donations'?

I like your idea of being able to search for 'free muds' though, however as it boils down to someones opinion who is to say its truly free? I pay for the interweb, so the game isn't really free by proxy.

I am not sure about the logic of that conclusion. We all pay for the internet and our servers. Some of us don't take out any fees from our players. That makes the game free for those players, even if running it involves a cost for the owners.

[cratylus]

To quote Osiris from another forum:
"Just because players are not 'required' to pay does not mean that a mud is Free. Competing with others who get in game benefit from payments made to the mud basically turns your escape hobby into a reflection of real world haves and have-nots. You'll be encouraged and even pressured to pay at some point."

I think the problem is that it is too easy to play
games with combinations of the words "free" with "game",
"mud", "perks", etc. This is why I think the use of "free"
is inherently fraught with uncertainty when used in
mud promotion. There are too many ways to defend that
"free mud" is a true statement, when it is not as
flatly declarative of the mud's status as it might sound.

For that reason I propose a modification of the
classification Osiris proposed. I have also created an
article on MuWiki so that folks can participate:

MUDs and Money - WikiMU* - a Wikia wiki

The classification is as follows:

Payment Impossible
Type A: Payment and donations rejected.

Payment Optional
Type B: Donations encouraged but unrewarded with advantage.
Type C: Donations rewarded with in-game advantage that can be earned in-game.

Payment Required
Type D: Payment required for in-game advantage that can't be earned in-game.
Type F: Payment required to access most of the game's entertainment.


Based on this, I would give Nodeka a type C rating,
given what has been said in this thread.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Nodeka Nodeka is now 100% free to play.

Originally Posted by Nodeka The extended map is a feature that requires a 2 dollar donation for a month or a 20 dollar donation for the year.

Originally Posted by Nodeka My opinion is that if you do not have to pay in order to access all of the games features or do not have to pay for subscription then it is free.

Wait, now you're confusing me again...you said you're 100% free to play, even though one of your features is only available through payment - but now you're saying that a game is only free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying. Wouldn't that mean you're not free based on your own definition?

Originally Posted by Nodeka I like your idea of being able to search for 'free muds' though, however as it boils down to someones opinion who is to say its truly free? I pay for the interweb, so the game isn't really free by proxy.

We already have a category for pay-to-play muds, so I think TMS has established that having to pay an electricity bill or an ISP doesn't make your mud non-free (otherwise every mud would be listed as pay-to-play).

Some muds are clearly pay-to-play, while others are completely free (as in, money never changes hands between the players and the mud owner). Between those two extremes lie many shades of grey, all of whom have a strong vested interest in advertising themselves as free. As such, this is a topic on which the TMS members will never reach agreement.

Of course every cloud has a silver lining. This issue has been around for a while, and has lead to the creation of two other mud-related sites, one of which is doing very well and the other of which shows promise. A third mud-related site has picked up on (and addressed) the demand for a 'pay-for-perks' option, and has slowly been growing in popularity.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by KaVir Wait, now you're confusing me again...you said you're 100% free to play, even though one of your features is only available through payment - but now you're saying that a game is only free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying. Wouldn't that mean you're not free based on your own definition? We already have a category for pay-to-play muds, so I think TMS has established that having to pay an electricity bill or an ISP doesn't make your mud non-free (otherwise every mud would be listed as pay-to-play). Some muds are clearly pay-to-play, while others are completely free (as in, money never changes hands between the players and the mud owner). Between those two extremes lie many shades of grey, all of whom have a strong vested interest in advertising themselves as free. As such, this is a topic on which the TMS members will never reach agreement. Of course every cloud has a silver lining. This issue has been around for a while, and has lead to the creation of two other mud-related sites, one of which is doing very well and the other of which shows promise. A third mud-related site has picked up on (and addressed) the demand for a 'pay-for-perks' option, and has slowly been growing in popularity.

My own character does not have the extended map and I do not miss it one bit. Nodeka is free for me and free for anyone else.

[Nodeka]

Originally Posted by cratylus To quote Osiris from another forum: "Just because players are not 'required' to pay does not mean that a mud is Free. Competing with others who get in game benefit from payments made to the mud basically turns your escape hobby into a reflection of real world haves and have-nots. You'll be encouraged and even pressured to pay at some point." I think the problem is that it is too easy to play games with combinations of the words "free" with "game", "mud", "perks", etc. This is why I think the use of "free" is inherently fraught with uncertainty when used in mud promotion. There are too many ways to defend that "free mud" is a true statement, when it is not as flatly declarative of the mud's status as it might sound. For that reason I propose a modification of the classification Osiris proposed. I have also created an article on MuWiki so that folks can participate: MUDs and Money - WikiMU* - a Wikia wiki The classification is as follows: Payment Impossible Type A: Payment and donations rejected. Payment Optional Type B: Donations encouraged but unrewarded with advantage. Type C: Donations rewarded with in-game advantage that can be earned in-game. Payment Required Type D: Payment required for in-game advantage that can't be earned in-game. Type F: Payment required to access most of the game's entertainment. Based on this, I would give Nodeka a type C rating, given what has been said in this thread. -Crat LPMuds.net - Index

I like it.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by cratylus For that reason I propose a modification of the classification Osiris proposed.

I also discussed some of the payment models here: Payment preferences

However rather than a single category, perhaps it might be better as a series of click-boxes within a 'Payment Model' category - something like:

No in-game impact:

[ ] You can donate, but get nothing in return.
[ ] You can purchase out-of-game merchandise (mugs, mousepads, etc).

Low-impact pay-for-perks:

[ ] You can purchase cosmetic things (renamed eq, fancy title, etc).
[ ] Pay for variety (eg a cool class which is on-par with free classes).
[ ] Pay to compensate for lost time (special case - see my link above).

Standard pay-for-perks:

[ ] Buy enhanced advancement (eg you pay to earn double exp).
[ ] Buy advantages that can also be earned through play (gold, etc).
[ ] Buy advantages that can replace regular play (levels, skills, etc).
[ ] Buy things that cannot otherwise be earned (special items, etc).
[ ] Buy non-transferable things that cannot otherwise be earned.

Pay-to-play:

[ ] Required one-off registration fee or purchase cost.
[ ] Regular subscription fee (hourly, monthly, etc).

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Nodeka My own character does not have the extended map and I do not miss it one bit. Nodeka is free for me and free for anyone else.

But that doesn't change the fact that one of your features is only available through payment, and you yourself have said that you only consider a game free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying.

Perhaps the extended map is a pretty minor feature, but this example helps highlight the problem of inconsistency prevalent in so many adverts, particularly if you start advertising the payment model based on such subjective terms as what you personally find useful. Maybe Bubba's mud has a $500 ubersword, but as a mage he doesn't need it, so he lists his mud as "100% free". Perhaps Boffo's mud requires payment to advance beyond level 10, but he's peachy just playing up to that point, so he advertises his mud as "100% free".

[cratylus]

KaVir said:

But that doesn't change the fact that one of your features is only available through payment

Ah, I missed that part. In that case Nodeka is type "D" according to the Crat Scale.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index

[Lasher]

Originally Posted by KaVir But that doesn't change the fact that one of your features is only available through payment, and you yourself have said that you only consider a game free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying. Perhaps the extended map is a pretty minor feature, but this example helps highlight the problem of inconsistency prevalent in so many adverts, particularly if you start advertising the payment model based on such subjective terms as what you personally find useful. Maybe Bubba's mud has a $500 ubersword, but as a mage he doesn't need it, so he lists his mud as "100% free". Perhaps Boffo's mud requires payment to advance beyond level 10, but he's peachy just playing up to that point, so he advertises his mud as "100% free".

Which is exactly why TMS attempting to define "what does 100% free mean?" is pointless. If I can play a game, at no cost, it is free. If I cannot play a game without cost, it is not free. Everything between that is semantics.

At one end of the extreme: I stick a tic-tac-toe game in a room all new users go to and they can't leave that room without paying. You could argue that the game is still technically "free to play". Is that a fair label?

At the other extreme: I could have 50,000 rooms/objects/skills/spells/whatever fully available without ever spending a penny but if someone can get 5 seconds more on their armor spell for donating, or a slightly larger in-game map, some would argue that the game is technically not "free". Is that a fair label?

So let's stick to black and white facts that can't be debated, in addition to pay to play, which needs better defining:

[ ] Donations accepted Y/N?
[ ] Donations rewarded Y/N?

Possible third option:

[ ] ALL game content available without donating Y/N?

My problem with the third option? Let's go with the example we've been using. Imagine this:

"As of today the extended map is available without donations for just 17billion diamonds-of-uberness"

Technically all game content is now available without donating, let's not mention that 17 billion diamonds-of-uberness would take around 12 light years to collect. You start to add phrases like "reasonable amount of time", "high/low advantage" to the categorizations and you're back to subjectivity.

Another problem with the third option, define "game content"? Every piece of "content" may be available, but at what level? You can get Bubba's sword and I can get Bubba's sword, but is my Bubba's sword better than yours?

I agree this is important information to players but let's not beat it to death. There are as many variations on roleplaying style, on pk type and on many other categorizations. Take PK as an example, there is NO PK, there is FULL PK, everything in between is a gray area. In this case the grey area is listed as "Restricted Playerkilling" and players can choose to login to the mud in question to find out exactly what "Restricted Playerkilling" means in that MUD. Any attempt to categorize all styles of PK would be pointless - you can still never really pin down how ingrained PK is into that game without trying it. Same with "pay-for-perks".

Long note, so worth repeating this part:

I agree this is important information to players..

[cratylus]

Splitting the thread seems like a good idea to me too.

I think you make an excellent point about the subjective nature
of a reward's attainability in-game.

Still, it seems like even though unassailable certainty might not be possible,
general consensus might be.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index