[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Throttle It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath.

Surely that should depend on the game's theme? I can think of various themes within which no-exception permadeath would actually be unrealistic - for example:

Highlander: Decapitation is the only way to die.

Mummy (WoD RPG 2nd edition version): If killed, your (two) spirits live on, and can restore your body.

Altered Carbon (novel): Your memories are stored in a spinal implant, and can be downloaded into new bodies.

In my opinion, any of the above could provide interesting themes for a roleplaying mud.

Originally Posted by Throttle When I evaluate a roleplaying mud for its quality of roleplay, one of the main deciding factors is its death system. Nothing scores higher than simple one-strike-out permadeath, just as a level/class-less system is the most realistic.

Once again I'd have to disagree on classes being inherently unrealistic - it really depends on what they represent. In fact I discussed this issue a couple of weeks ago: mudlab.org :: View topic - The definition of class-based

[Molly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttle
It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath.

Originally Posted by KaVir Surely that should depend on the game's theme? I can think of various themes within which no-exception permadeath would actually be unrealistic - for example: Highlander: Decapitation is the only way to die. Mummy (WoD RPG 2nd edition version): If killed, your (two) spirits live on, and can restore your body. Altered Carbon (novel): Your memories are stored in a spinal implant, and can be downloaded into new bodies.

Heh - you could add Time Travel to that list.
Not that we are big on Roleplay in 4D, but I always thought we had one of the better explanations for both players and mobs reappearing after death.

Our story is that the Travel Agency crew just restores you to the hour before you were killed - for a fee, of course.

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by Molly Heh - you could add Time Travel to that list.

It's not as if fantasy settings with "raise dead" or whatever have to be lame insofar as their handling of death goes, either. Brust's Dragaera setting is an excellent example of having readily available, reliable resurrection that's well-integrated with the world in terms of its consequences and people's behavior.

My feeling is that a lot of the problem with standard pendeath systems is that they're fundamentally OOC and generally break the theme of the world because NPCs mostly act as though death were death, when it's not.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Molly Quote: Heh - you could add Time Travel to that list. Not that we are big on Roleplay in 4D, but I always thought we had one of the better explanations for both players and mobs reappearing after death. Our story is that the Travel Agency crew just restores you to the hour before you were killed - for a fee, of course.

Classic! I like that. Reminds me a bit of Total Recall (the Travel Agency part).

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Throttle I get the impression that you don't really know what RPI is about. If you think it's all about pk, you've either played the wrong muds or you haven't played RPIs enough to get it. Free-for-all pk is there because it has to be an option for your character when the situation arises where it's in-character to do so. As opposed to many muds where you either kill someone and they come back right away, or you simply can't kill somebody because of a set of rules.

The true difference between RPI and any other RP game is the fact the brutal elitism you have to deal with when people play an RPI as opposed to just roleplaying and enjoying it. I've played just about every sort of game there is to play, and honestly, I enjoy most of them. As a PLAYER, I enjoy pendeath more than permadeath, as I feel permadeath is kind of a product of the old 80s video games where you get X lives (sometimes just 1), try to get as far as you can and start over. I LOVED those old 80s games, so don't get me wrong, permadeath definitely has its place.

Originally Posted by Throttle That's just silly. Slain NPCs on roleplaying muds return because it's natural for them to do so. If you kill a young deer, and the next day there's another young deer, it's because - surprise - animals tend to reproduce. Such NPCs are disposable because they're not unique, and they return because there's not an exhaustable amount of proverbial deers in the world. And with permadeath, if you kill a character, another character is created. That's so much less jarring than the alternative, where when you kill someone they face some penalty or sacrifice and then they bounce right back in. If the NPC you want to kill is of the unique kind, where having it return after a while isn't logical, you should be able to arrange with the staff for your character to assassinate the NPC in question and they should remove/replace the NPC to reflect in-character events that affected the game world. That's part of what makes a roleplaying game: your character can affect the world in a tangible way.

It's not "natural" for NPCs to come back year after year in the some room over and over and over again. This is NOT happen in real life, and it's not realistic at all. Animals reproduce AS LONG as they can find a mate, live long enough to reproduce AND raise their young. Currently, our extinction rate in real life is approximately 8 species per minute. When an animal dies, it isn't just instantly replaced, so I honestly don't think any realism arguments should be made here.

I honestly don't know very many MUDs where you can "bounce" right back into any given situation over a death. You really only find that on WoW, and even then, they might bother to make you repair your gear before you can go and fight some more. I don't think it's any more realistic for a character to die as often as characters die on permadeath MUDs with as few population as there are on many permadeath muds as it is for players to be resurrected by a given deity. That's just me. Given a village of 100 people, you don't have people dropping dead every 4 months and then instantly being replaced by a new neighbor everytime someone dies. Realism really has no play in this entire discussion.

What I DO find compelling in arguments for permadeath is the challenge, the often faster advancement rates, the constant hypersensitivity to the area, the competition for status while riding that fine line between being popular and being popular enough to kill, and lastly, the forced detachment to characters and the ever invention of new characters. THAT is what is fun and exciting about permadeath systems. Honestly, I find all the arguments for permadeath = better roleplay (usually with arguments to realism) to be bogus and, more often than not, elitist.

Originally Posted by Throttle I am talking about RPI versus RPEnforced. I have seen many RPEs where many players do not roleplay at all times. Even ones ranked top20 on TMS.

Again, the biggest difference I see between RPIs and RP-anything else is the amount of elitism people have to deal with in order to roleplay in a game. I don't know why it is, but so many roleplayers have this need to compare themselves to other roleplayers and belittle each other's roleplaying. It even happens within a single roleplaying community let alone between different games. Personally, I like roleplay-enforced games, which includes RPIs. Other people like a more relaxed game where they can roleplay with each other but chat about real life in tells. I find that to be jarring and dislike it for myself, but I definitely don't think someone is LESS of a roleplayer than me simply because they like a different system.

Originally Posted by Throttle Roleplaying muds still have score, health, stats and so on. A living, breathing person has physical and mental attributes compared to others, one man isn't as strong as the next, so of course there's a way to see this. It can be kept to an acceptable minimum, and one of the RPIs that I play on has a wounds system as opposed to a hit points system, which is a very good example of where realism can be an extremely valuable roleplaying asset. There are going to be OOC commands because it's ultimately necessary, it's a text-based game after all. And on RPI muds, it's certainly not unheard of for people to turn off the TV, ignore calls and become as fully immersed as it's possible in a computer game. I'm being very realistic.

MUDs are, beyond all else, games. With ANY game, you have a quantifiable system to deal with. Quantifying something with a wounds system (I have no idea what that is, so I'm not making a judgment on it) is really not that much different than quantifying something with a numerical system. In all reality, there's probably a numerical system behind the wound system. It's just a matter of how transparent it is to the player.

On MANY popular games, people will turn off the TV, ignore calls, ignore REAL LIFE in general because they are so completely engrossed in what they're doing. Heck, sometimes people do this just while they're reading or watching football. I know that an ungodly number of people do it while raiding on WoW.

Originally Posted by Throttle I'm not denouncing the rewarding of roleplay. I am questioning the idea of, on a roleplaying mud, rewarding somebody for roleplaying often. How is "often" good enough if roleplay is enforced? How is it good enough for rewards? If everyone on an RPI/RPE mud is not roleplaying at all times, it's because something's wrong. Usually it's either because the players are bad roleplayers, or because the game isn't good enough for them to want to roleplay at all times.

Roleplaying is a matter of suspension of disbelief and community story-building. The story must resonate with you, you must be able to build your character around it, and you must be provided with a set of rules that establishes the roleplay as a game with defined mechanics rather than a sit-down-game-of-pretend. What you do with what you're given once you've found something suitable for you is a determination of how good of a roleplayer you are, NOT whether you are playing a permadeath MUD, an RPI, and RPEncouraged, an RPEnforced, an RP server on an MMO. I honestly prefer a game that encourages people who WANT to RP (whether or not they're GOOD at it) and provides opportunities for them to do so than a game that constantly judges and excludes people's RP.

I prefer pendeath because the fun for me is constant character building and risk that carries a penalty but not completely annihlation of a character I've worked on. I also enjoy permadeath on games that allow for it because it gets that "survival" thing going in me, but I honestly only prefer that in certain settings. I honestly also enjoy hack 'n' slash games as long as the mechanics are good, and the atmosphere caters to a more mature playerbase. I also think there are all sorts of RPers out there who have a lot to add to the communities they choose, and they are not better or worse than anyone else simply because they LIKE something different from someone who might play on an RPI or an RPE or an RPP or an RPX or an RPQLSEFLKSER!

[Jazuela]

Well then sure, I guess that makes me an elitist. And if I'm an elitist, what does that make you? Someone lacking standards? If that's how you want to see things, then I'm fine with it. So from an elitist's point of view, I'll chime in.

Let's toss realism out the window, since there ain't no such thing in a fantasy game. But, let's use that lovely crunchy term "suspension of disbelief" instead, since it's much more fitting.

The reason I play fantasy roleplaying text-based games, instead of X-Box, is several-fold. One, I like to read, and I'm not too big on graphics. Second, I want to feel as though I'm participating in a storyline while it's occurring. I don't need to be the hero, but I do need to be involved. If I'm not going to be involved, I might as well just read a book (which I do often).

So what is it about being involved? Well in a permanent death game, there's a tangable risk to my character. It is an IC risk - not an arbitrary OOC risk. Penalty points aren't IC. They're an OOC device to punish the PLAYER for having the nerve to allow their character to die. Loss of skill - again. An OOC device to set the player back - because he can just spend another 5 hours getting those skills right back and he'll be exactly where he left off before his character died.

So there's that spark of risk to the -character- that you can't get with ooc penalty devices, that attracts me to permanent death. There's also the matter of assassinations. In a game where death is permissible and coded at all, it makes sense that intentional murder would occur from time to time. But what good is it, to murder Joe Noble, if Joe Noble will just be alive again in an hour? What's the point of killing him in the first place, if he can't actually DIE?

Resurrection means - they ain't really dead. It's a pretend death, that prevents that suspension of disbelief. I don't need or want reality in my fantasy games. But I do want my experience to be believable. And - being dead, using up a few deeds, or exp points, and being alive after solving the same puzzle I solved twenty times in the last year of playing the game, is not believable. After the first twenty times of my character dying and coming back to life again, I stop feeling that "spark" that comes with a risk of death. There exists no risk of death, if death is a temporary setback to a character's immortal existence.

So for my elitist self, I'll happily stick with elitists RPGs, and let all you little people with lack of standards enjoy your happy joyful bouncy giggly smoochy empath-resurrecting games.

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Let's toss realism out the window, since there ain't no such thing in a fantasy game. But, let's use that lovely crunchy term "suspension of disbelief" instead, since it's much more fitting.

"Realism" is something of a bugaboo that always brings up the same tired refrains, but I think what "realism" really means in virtual worlds is "internal consistency". The world doesn't need to resemble ours; it needs to resemble itself. It's when worlds have resurrection tacked onto behavioral and social structures that fail to acknowledge its existence that "realism" is broken.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Well then sure, I guess that makes me an elitist. And if I'm an elitist, what does that make you? Someone lacking standards? If that's how you want to see things, then I'm fine with it. So from an elitist's point of view, I'll chime in.

Well, that depends. Are you telling me that I'm LESS of a roleplayer because I enjoy a different type of game from you? I don't think I've ever seen or heard anything like that from you even if you play on an RPI until this last post. I, however, am not telling you that you are less than me for liking permadeath; you just obviously like playing something DIFFERENT than I do. I am making no judgments on you at all for the type of game you choose to play. ALL RPI players are not elitist, but most elitist roleplayers claim to play RPIs as opposed to RP<insertsneeringcommenthere>.

Someone I consider an extremely excellent roleplayer and a good friend happens to play Armageddon. She is neither elitist nor does she claim that people who play a game that does not deign to call itself an RPI are somehow lacking standards or less than she. In fact, we've played at least two games together over a period of 6-7 years. Now she builds for one game, and I build for two others.

Originally Posted by Jazuela So what is it about being involved? Well in a permanent death game, there's a tangable risk to my character. It is an IC risk - not an arbitrary OOC risk. Penalty points aren't IC. They're an OOC device to punish the PLAYER for having the nerve to allow their character to die. Loss of skill - again. An OOC device to set the player back - because he can just spend another 5 hours getting those skills right back and he'll be exactly where he left off before his character died.

As I said in my previous post, I can see TONS of reasons to play a permadeath game. Heck, tons of old school games have "permadeath" of type in order to add to the CHALLENGE of the game.

I have to say, though, I don't think permadeath or any kind of death is any more OOC than any other arbitrary punishment upon "death". Instead of losing some random stats, losing some gear, losing some xp, losing some whatever it it is they decide you lose, you lose a character and just roll up a new one. It's still all game mechanics no matter how you want to sugar coat it, and it's all a matter of degrees. Face it, games are inherently OOC due to the nature of their construct, but the RP comes in being able to operate within the story, add to the story, tell the story, and get others involved. Loftily decreeing that YOUR choices in how to do this is SO MUCH better than anyone else's is just plain silly. People make their choices for so many different reason. People find so many different things that appeal to them. That's the beauty of having a choice, and that's the beauty to having so many games to choose from.

Originally Posted by Jazuela So there's that spark of risk to the -character- that you can't get with ooc penalty devices, that attracts me to permanent death. There's also the matter of assassinations. In a game where death is permissible and coded at all, it makes sense that intentional murder would occur from time to time. But what good is it, to murder Joe Noble, if Joe Noble will just be alive again in an hour? What's the point of killing him in the first place, if he can't actually DIE?

I understand where you're coming from. As I said, permadeath appeals to me from time to time, but I enjoy a lot of things about gaming in general. Even more than gaming, I enjoy building, writing, and watching stories unfold. As to what is the point of killing someone in the first place if he can't die, well that depends on the game you're playing and whether or not you play with the object of killing someone. I rarely play anything involving assassinations because that type of character (one that would assassinate someone else) is not one that is very interesting to me, and politics interest me way more than PK. Thus, the PK aspects of roleplaying games interest me very little. On the other hand, I live for PvP in games that are designed around PvP and even some that are not. The joy of killing someone who can come back stems from testing my skills as a player against someone else's skills as a player. They are unpredictable, unlike NPCs, and it's even better if they can go "better" themselves and come back for a grudge match. Also, if I'm the one to lose, I want to try different tactics and see if I can come back to win. Things like this can spawn so many offshoots when allies and extra enemies get involved. Again, it's just more to the story. In too many permadeath games, you don't get another chance. It's pretty awesome when you DO get away, though, I'll give you that, because you KNOW you've literally SAVED your character. YAY!

In some other games, PvP is part of another grind. You kill for whatever points, and you level up in a different way. Doesn't thrill me much, and at that point, you're glad you're able to kill someone over and over just so you can progress. So to answer your question, I can think of TONS of reasons to kill someone who would come back.

I think I'll just remain someone with a lack of standards if, in order to be uber-roleplayer-who-loves-permadeath-as-the-only-system-ever-and-everyone-else-sucks-and-aren't-really-roleplaying (wow, what a mouthful), I have to spend a lot of time belittling everyone else's choices and ban myself from un-elite, lowly games. It allows me to experience a ton of stories, roleplayers, people, and excellent games that I might otherwise have to boycott. I call it open-mindedness and giving people props for their choices. I might operate from a faulty dictionary, though.

[Jazuela]

Well, that depends. Are you telling me that I'm LESS of a roleplayer because I enjoy a different type of game from you?

Well yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Because, I'm an elitist according to your criteria. And that's what elitists think - that everyone else is inferior. We already covered that. Read your own post, and my response to it, and try to keep up. Though I don't have much hope for you since I'm elitist, which makes you inferior, which means you have no hope of keeping up with me.

[Throttle]

I get the general impression that some who posted here feel insulted, on behalf of their mud, by some of the pro-permadeath posts in this thread. Also, some seem unable to grasp the concept of an opinion or personal experience, and defiantly argue against them. I've so far deliberately avoided singling out any particular muds with criticism or to point out flaws in a poster's argument, and I've done my best to avoid the inevitable elitist attitude that occurs in a discussion like this.

In the end, anyone who thinks one thing is strictly better than another will come off as an elitist. Through mudding for almost half of my life, experience has proven that certain game attributes make for a better roleplaying environment. If that makes me an elitist then I gladly accept that. I'll still stoically claim that the best roleplay in the world of muds is found in games that incorporate such measures as permadeath, character applications that require staff approval, level-free systems, short descriptions instead of names, and other similar rulesets. I've never been proven wrong by personal experience. Good roleplay can be found elsewhere, but to say that the above-mentioned examples do not increase the quality of it is ignorant, in my opinion.

Newworlds, does this boil down to the fact that you consider "your" mud to be on par with the top RPI muds in regards to the quality of roleplay in the game? If that's the case then I'd have to challenge that claim. While I think that NW is a good and innovative game, I could never consider it an RPI mud despite the fact that NW's admins claim it to be. I've never been a veteran or notably established player on NW, but I certainly have tried it. There are countless things I could point out as things that do not promote roleplay, or things that are lacking in order for the game to be considered a roleplaying intensive mud. Like I said before, I normally don't stoop to personal attacks, which I don't doubt is what you'll consider this. Still, the fact remains that NW - while an interesting and competent game - is far, far away from the RPI status that it claims to have.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by Newworlds All of these points can be said for any game that has risks involved. This is again, more about risks and results of action, than whether or not permadeath makes for great roleplay and immersion. Evenso, I must ask, what game do you play that the top players cycle all the time from death. I'm curious on that one? I've rarely if ever seen this.

That hasn't been my experience. My pc having to face their own mortality is very different than having to face the loss of equipment or levels. It FEELS completely different.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by Lasher How often does a well established character die in a game like this? I've never played a MUD with perm-death. Or is that too general, equivalent to asking "How often does a character die in a MUD?".

Daily, give or take. Just not all of them on the same day.

[Jazuela]

To answer Lasher - Some characters live real-life years, others die within an hour of genning. It really depends on the character and his environment and if the player has read any of the recommended tips to starting game play. Things like "don't leave the city gates in your first moments, because you have no armor, no weapon, no mount, no water, and you will die." Or things like "if a guy comes up to you and starts wiggling his fingers and glowing an odd purple, you should -probably- go somewhere else, very quickly." and things like "don't kick the local law enforcement in the knees."

Usually if people take heed of the "recommended tips for new players" they have a decent chance of playing their character for a few months. If they're extra lucky, or happen to have seriously awesome RP skills, they can land themselves some cushy opportunities to RP their way into fame, fortune, and longevity. But eventually - they will die, and that's a good thing, because if everyone could move up to the top, they'd have no one under them to rule over. SOmeone has to die, so others can take their place. If we were all uber powerful it would be a very boring game with nothing much else to do besides kill each other all day.

[Molly]

Originally Posted by Jazuela But eventually - they will die, and that's a good thing, because if everyone could move up to the top, they'd have no one under them to rule over. SOmeone has to die, so others can take their place. If we were all uber powerful it would be a very boring game with nothing much else to do besides kill each other all day.

I think that's the best argument for permadeath that I've seen so far, and that has really nothing at all to do with RP or the quality of it.
We all want our players to stay long in the game, but as a consequence most of us also have some problems with long-time players, who get so powerful that it puts a damper on every new player's aspirations, because the old ones are just so strong that catching up to them seems an impossible task.

Permadeath takes care of that problem very nicely.