[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Immersive is a word. It is listed in all the online dictionaries I've checked, and even has an entry in the wikipedia "answers" site.

Ah, thanks! Three of my spellcheckers hate it, and Firefox keeps spellchecking "immersive" for me. I won't worry about it anymore then.

[Fifi]

On another thread someone said, they felt that they could invest a great many hours in character development only to lose their pc.

Someone else mentioned (or I understood them to mention) that players who play permadeath muds were less attached to each individual pc.

My experience, and I think that of the people I mud with, on role play muds with permadeath, is that you do invest. You can spend thousands of hours crafting a life for a pc, making them a part of a world, making friends and enimes and plans and a life. And you get to a point where you think you have enough power, social or political or physical power that maybe your pc will escape random death. You can cheat it. Your pc will die of old age. And then wham. And it's awful. You never want to play again. You want to take it back. And you can't. They're gone. It's not sad. It's TRAGIC.
And that's the lure.
(Yes, this post was subjective and tangential)

[Milawe]

Yeah, I don't doubt that you invest. I think permadeath just affects different types of players in different ways. I honestly can't imagine people playing games extensively where they don't invest something into it, you know? Why play then?

It's just that your original question was how does peramdeath affects the people who have played them or play them, and I think that we see people have a great range of how it affects them.

[Bakha]

Originally Posted by Fifi My experience, and I think that of the people I mud with, on role play muds with permadeath, is that you do invest. You can spend thousands of hours crafting a life for a pc, making them a part of a world, making friends and enimes and plans and a life. And you get to a point where you think you have enough power, social or political or physical power that maybe your pc will escape random death. You can cheat it. Your pc will die of old age. And then wham. And it's awful. You never want to play again. You want to take it back. And you can't. They're gone. It's not sad. It's TRAGIC. And that's the lure. (Yes, this post was subjective and tangential)

Very, very true. Permadeath truly does explore the realm of tragedy (I'm not saying that non-permadeath muds don't) How many stories have you heard of players sitting at their keyboards and sobbing after losing a beloved PC? I'm not sure it's even completely healthy, but the investment is definitely real. I'll never forget losing my longest-lived PC (maxed out Drovian uber mul, over 2 RL years old with tons of cool development over time) in a completely stupid way. I was getting a quick fix before going to work that day. Went out into the desert to run an errand ingame and died to a siltflyer. I had to walk out the door and head to work 5 minutes later. I walked through the rest of the day in a daze.

I've also laughed at the death of other PCs of mine and eagerly went back to the drawing board to create something new and different. I think that's probably one of the attractions of permadeath to me (and this probably does backup somewhat what Threshold was saying about it actually affecting RPI players less) is that it allows for the possibility of different roles. In my time on Armageddon, I've played a rebel mul drovian, an establishment sadistic noble, a small time petty thief, a bumbling drunk, a loyal meathead guard captain, and others. Some made their mark on the world and became well known. Others never amounted to much of anything.

In related anecdotal news, I played Threshold for years as one PC, Magnus. I loved that PC. He was awesome. I did have a brief stint with some other PCs for playtesting other guilds, but for the most part I played Magnus. I probably played Magnus longer than it was healthy for my enjoyment of the game. I probably would have been better off retiring him and creating something different, but I would have never willingly forced myself to give up that beloved PC. It's times like those when the precarious nature of permadeath can provide impetus to continue to play. You know that you could lose that powerful, long-lived PC at any given time, so you better enjoy it while you can.

Edit: In looking back, I realize that some of my comments about "power" may have made me come across as obsessed with skills and coded power. I should probably should have said something more along the lines of well-connected, historical, famous, etc.. instead of powerful, as that tends to be what I think of as "power" in a game.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Bakha Very, very true. Permadeath truly does explore the realm of tragedy (I'm not saying that non-permadeath muds don't) How many stories have you heard of players sitting at their keyboards and sobbing after losing a beloved PC? I'm not sure it's even completely healthy, but the investment is definitely real. I'll never forget losing my longest-lived PC (maxed out Drovian uber mul, over 2 RL years old with tons of cool development over time) in a completely stupid way. I was getting a quick fix before going to work that day. Went out into the desert to run an errand ingame and died to a siltflyer. I had to walk out the door and head to work 5 minutes later. I walked through the rest of the day in a daze.

Well, healthy or not, we make emotional investments into stories that we partake in whether it be a movie, a book, or a beloved character on our favorite mud. We've had players cry over the loss of their deities, and others break down over emotional situations that their character often find themselves trapped in. In the end, I think that we play the games that tend to evoke the best (biggest) emotional responses in us that allows us to connect to a story. People just respond emotionally in very, very different ways.

Originally Posted by Bakha I've also laughed at the death of other PCs of mine and eagerly went back to the drawing board to create something new and different. I think that's probably one of the attractions of permadeath to me (and this probably does backup somewhat what Threshold was saying about it actually affecting RPI players less) is that it allows for the possibility of different roles. In my time on Armageddon, I've played a rebel mul drovian, an establishment sadistic noble, a small time petty thief, a bumbling drunk, a loyal meathead guard captain, and others. Some made their mark on the world and became well known. Others never amounted to much of anything.

Well, permadeath on games like Armageddon can happen in a senseless manner, but they aren't worthless to the people who play such games. The loss of a character, while emotionally impacting, doesn't wipe out the accomplishments of the character and the reason the character was created in the first place. Each time you go back with a new character, it's a new experience, and it's worth going back. Not so much for other games that don't have that roleplay support.

Originally Posted by Bakha In related anecdotal news, I played Threshold for years as one PC, Magnus. I loved that PC. He was awesome. I did have a brief stint with some other PCs for playtesting other guilds, but for the most part I played Magnus. I probably played Magnus longer than it was healthy for my enjoyment of the game. I probably would have been better off retiring him and creating something different, but I would have never willingly forced myself to give up that beloved PC. It's times like those when the precarious nature of permadeath can provide impetus to continue to play. You know that you could lose that powerful, long-lived PC at any given time, so you better enjoy it while you can.

Magnus!! There's so much great history with Magnus, and he's still being discussed to this day. You should have opted for the permadeath of that character. I would have enjoyed killing him!

[Disillusionist]

If any of my posts implied that I thought less immersion was probable with one feature set or another, that was not my intent. And I -never- discount investment of players in what they love, regardless of feature set. I can make a case for either 'camp', which says they're pretty much equal, and therefore a feature set is pretty much a smokescreen non sequitor on the quality of RP.

I did respond to the less-than-subtle implication of some posts that a certain feature set promoted better RP. The way I see it, a great actor is great, whether onstage, on camera, or sitting at the computer, doing 90% of the RP work. Since there are many schools of acting, and many actors, the sets, lighting, director and other cast members (and all the other little extras) are beneficial to some actors, detrimental to others. This includes feature sets, in an RP medium.

I've found some MUD environments to be very conducive to one of my styles of RP or another, but probably more than anything else that can ruin immersion, enjoyment, cameraderie, artistic appreciation and just plain fun is almost always jerkweed player attitudes.
NOTE: Jerkweed attitudes of players cannot be moderated much by feature sets. You can modify access, you can modify -some- behaviors, but you really cannot moderate attitude.

I don't see less experienced roleplayers as a blight on any game. I see them as an opportunity, mainly, to lead by example. I don't see middling-level roleplayers (whatever that means) as a basis for contrast to the superiority of my roleplay. I don't -always- see superior roleplayers as beacons in the night to follow, usually because many of the longest-running RPers fall into the trap of RP elitism, and spend more time criticising or belittling the RP of others, rather than simply playing, and helping, living and letting live.

I've seen such great results from spending the time nudging less experienced roleplayers along, giving tips, asking questions, and being available that I can't imagine one benefit of touting superior roleplay in a condescending manner, other than to drive players off, or stroke an insecure ego.

Having said that, I know there are great roleplayers in almost every feature set, and jerkweeds, likewise.

[ShadowsDawn]

Originally Posted by Bakha In related anecdotal news, I played Threshold for years as one PC, Magnus. I loved that PC. He was awesome. I did have a brief stint with some other PCs for playtesting other guilds, but for the most part I played Magnus. I probably played Magnus longer than it was healthy for my enjoyment of the game. I probably would have been better off retiring him and creating something different, but I would have never willingly forced myself to give up that beloved PC. It's times like those when the precarious nature of permadeath can provide impetus to continue to play. You know that you could lose that powerful, long-lived PC at any given time, so you better enjoy it while you can.

Magnus!?! Wow.. I recall hearing that name in hushed whispers back when I first started playing! I can definitely relate on the whole not wanting to let go of a character. I tried several times to give up mine, but kept getting the permission to go back to her.

Had I known the perma-death option was available though... oh how I would have *loved* to get to do that. I still would love to see her go out like she should have, but alas.. I actually managed to part with her.