[Fifi]

By permadeath, I mean real permadeath. You die- game over. The end. Finita la musica. How does permadeath alter the way people play?

[Brody]

Two of the JTS games have permadeath. (The third, well, you're dead when the game starts, so permadeath is rather redundant.)

How does it affect players? Well, it makes them think twice about getting into life and death situations. It makes them think maybe three or four times before taking on a life or death situation against vastly superior numbers. And it gives a lot of gravitas to someone's sacrifice when they put themselves in a heroic dying-for-other-people scene.

We do offer some ways around dying. The first is the common sense that should come standard with every player. The other: Luck cards. Players who do a lot of RPing earn points to spend on things like luck cards, which can be used to "buy" themselves out of certain death. When the cards run out, of course, that's the end of the show.

The loss still stings, but we try to make sure players know from Day 1 that death for their characters is guaranteed someday (especially now that the current incarnation of OS will close next June). It's up to them - and their interactions with others - to determine how soon that death comes.

[Throttle]

How many muds have permadeath? That's pretty difficult to find out, but not a whole lot. To me, there are two kinds of permadeath:


1) True permadeath: if you die in any way, you're gone. Pretty rare, only the RPI muds and a few others have this. The purpose of this style of death is to make the game as realistic as possible, and to make sure that the players truly do as their character would if they were a living, breathing individual. It's easy to take nonsensical risks if dying means you have to spend an hour getting the xp points back; if it means a terminate loss of said character, the player is much more likely to stay in-character and act realistically.

2) "Soft" permadeath: it's possible to permanently lose the character, but it's not as simple as "death = bye". It might let you die a certain amount of times before the character finally ends, or you might need to die without a specific item on you, or in a particular way. Muds that have systems like these are often roleplay-enforced without taking the step to become a true RPI mud.


What does permadeath do for a game? As I mentioned above, it promotes realistic roleplay. Permadeath generally does not belong on a mud where roleplay is not the focus, although it could be there as a game difficulty similar to Diablo2's "hardcore" mode. Actions and consequences become a lot more real and interesting when a mistake could cost you months or years of work, and it makes it so much easier for the player to feel the real fear of death. Most purist roleplayers will not consider a game without permadeath to be a true roleplaying game.

[Fifi]

I personally meant to question to pertain solely to true permadeath. But then I didn't think of soft permadeath as permadeath. Is it?

[Throttle]

If it's possible to completely lose a character due to in-game circumstances (not such things as punishment from staff), the game has permadeath. That's my opinion. A system like Brody's is what I'd consider soft permadeath, while muds such as Armageddon and Shadows of Isildur have true permadeath.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by Throttle If it's possible to completely lose a character due to in-game circumstances (not such things as punishment from staff), the game has permadeath. That's my opinion. A system like Brody's is what I'd consider soft permadeath, while muds such as Armageddon and Shadows of Isildur have true permadeath.

Erm - it's possible to completely lose a character on OS due to in-game circumstances. If a player hasn't earned any luck cards, they're dead. Nothing soft about it. No consent required - yer dead. The luck cards just offer a representation of a player's investment of RP Reward Points to try and keep the character alive a little longer.

So, maybe the best way to describe it is permadeath with a (temporarily) open grave.

[Throttle]

Well, it's just a conflict of opinion. I don't consider it true permadeath if you can somehow avoid losing a dead character by, for example, having a "luck card". Permadeath yes, but I'll call it soft.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by Throttle Well, it's just a conflict of opinion. I don't consider it true permadeath if you can somehow avoid losing a dead character by, for example, having a "luck card". Permadeath yes, but I'll call it soft.

Worth agreeing to disagree on this one. I just see it as having as chance to dodge death. But, for example, during a recent planetside battle during the Phyrrian war, we had one character (newly apped) with no luck cards. He died. Permanently. We had others who had cards, used them to cheat death for a while, and then, when the cards ran out, died. Permanently.

I don't think it's soft. I just think it's cinematic. You're still possibly going to die, it just might be drawn out a little more.

[Fifi]

The strange thing is, I find the opposite of what is reported and expected to be true. I played a game where there was no permadeath, and there was xp and levels. And people stuck to the safe places - unwilling to risk their xp and equipment. Now I play a permadeath game, and people live lives filled with hardship and danger. Not reckless, but with risks.

Odd, huh?

[Throttle]

The strange thing is, I find the opposite of what is reported and expected to be true. I played a game where there was no permadeath, and there was xp and levels. And people stuck to the safe places - unwilling to risk their xp and equipment. Now I play a permadeath game, and people live lives filled with hardship and danger. Not reckless, but with risks. Odd, huh?

Well, it depends a lot on how the game is designed. A game might be relatively easy with a focus on grinding moreso than risky battles. Some games reward time spent where others reward risks survived. A mud such as Armageddon is built specifically to portray an extremely dangerous world, so even though it has permadeath, people are going to live risky lives simply because that's how the game works.

Worth agreeing to disagree on this one. I just see it as having as chance to dodge death. But, for example, during a recent planetside battle during the Phyrrian war, we had one character (newly apped) with no luck cards. He died. Permanently. We had others who had cards, used them to cheat death for a while, and then, when the cards ran out, died. Permanently. I don't think it's soft. I just think it's cinematic. You're still possibly going to die, it just might be drawn out a little more.

Agreed to disagree.

[rendekar]

since you're asking for *true permadeath* which is unfamiliar and not necessarily important term for mudders..

once i've been playing an horror game called Clive Barker's Undying..i said to myself '' if you die, game is OVER'' .this decision made my experience with the game much more exciting. i only played it alone, only at nights with candles scattered around my room.

i never died but got sick of my bad habit of saving again again (i obviously needed to set another rule regarding this saving issue) and couldn't help myself to keep playing. the game's atmosphere was just too brilliant and vibrant for me to maintain my welfare.

well, this is true permadeath..you can set this rule yourself for any mud you like but it's not reasonable in games those involve other PCs with other rules..

(you have your account there in most RPIs and can use your knowledge you have had with previous characters.)

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Fifi By permadeath, I mean real permadeath. You die- game over. The end. Finita la musica. How does permadeath alter the way people play?

New Worlds has permadeath, but it does not happen to everyone, so you might call it "soft", and the game is different depending on where you start your character. Nevertheless, the real question was how does permadeath affect a character?

I'll answer it this way: Based on playing permadeath muds myself and discussion with those that have played both styles, I've found when people say "Hash Permadeath is true Intensive Roleplay," I say "pffft, because players that play on fully permadeath muds still know all their 'buddies" when they restart and go and rp with them regardless of whether they have a "new character" or not. It is exactly the same on a mud that you don't have permadeath, but lose knowledge of characters on death: Your friends also come help you regear, get coins, and you get back into the "group" you play with.

So, in short, there is no difference between a permadeath mud and a mud that has alternative methods of negativity on death, when it comes to social interaction or group power. The players still find their buddies and play with them.

However, when it comes to exploring or adventuring, permadeath or not permadeath, the real question is "how harsh is death?" And the harsher the death, the more timid the player is to explore.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by Newworlds New Worlds has permadeath, but it does not happen to everyone, so you might call it "soft", and the game is different depending on where you start your character. Nevertheless, the real question was how does permadeath affect a character? I'll answer it this way: Based on playing permadeath muds myself and discussion with those that have played both styles, I've found when people say "Hash Permadeath is true Intensive Roleplay," I say "pffft, because players that play on fully permadeath muds still know all their 'buddies" when they restart and go and rp with them regardless of whether they have a "new character" or not. It is exactly the same on a mud that you don't have permadeath, but lose knowledge of characters on death: Your friends also come help you regear, get coins, and you get back into the "group" you play with. So, in short, there is no difference between a permadeath mud and a mud that has alternative methods of negativity on death, when it comes to social interaction or group power. The players still find their buddies and play with them. However, when it comes to exploring or adventuring, permadeath or not permadeath, the real question is "how harsh is death?" And the harsher the death, the more timid the player is to explore.

Depends on the style of game and what's involved in getting a character.

For example, some RPI games aren't about gear or levels, they're about developing and building a character. So, you might spend weeks or even months just planning out a character concept to put it into a world where that character could be wiped out. I've known many a player who developed an attachment to their characters under those kinds of circumstances and when they lost the character, it wasn't as easy as running through chargen again with a new character just to be with their pals once more. Running through again may mean re-investing in an entirely new concept, submitting a fresh bio/application, and hoping for the best.

[Crystal]

We instituted permadeath into Advent, but I was actually originally against it. However my staff were fairly adamant for it so I wanted to give it a try.

Come to find out, I think it has enriched the MUD greatly (and we're only in Alpha testing). We've been open for Alpha testing for just over a year (Our 1 year anniversary was October 2nd), and we've had a small handful of deaths (I'm thinking maybe 10 in the last year total) from PK. But they were significant deaths, with much meaning behind them, and it helped create even more RP.

Because we put ourselves in the mindset of the players constantly, we've wanted to develop ways that permadeath would not deter people from playing the game. As such, we've recently implemented a way that people who have gained the most RPP (Roleplay Points that are rewarded by staff and automated for consistently good RP), are given the ability to advance their character fairly far during creation, rather than having to level up again.

If they've already proven themselves as good roleplayers, we decided it is better to reward them by not having them have to level their next alt as much at all. This will also allow them to create "troublesome" characters that will most likely have a short existence, and not have to worry about "advancing skills all over again."

We just don't see the need to put as much emphasis on advancing skills. We'd rather it be on roleplay and customization. So this works well with a permadeath system. I can't imagine not having one now

[chaosprime]

It's possible to wind up permadead on LS, but you have to kinda work at it. You start with 30 lives and are deleted if you lose all of them; you can buy more with gold. So it's unusual and generally a sign of large amounts of carelessness for this to happen.

The main exception to all that is Yog-Sothoth, who, if you're a ghost in his presence, will start eating your lives.

[Throttle]

New Worlds has permadeath, but it does not happen to everyone, so you might call it "soft", and the game is different depending on where you start your character. Nevertheless, the real question was how does permadeath affect a character? I'll answer it this way: Based on playing permadeath muds myself and discussion with those that have played both styles, I've found when people say "Hash Permadeath is true Intensive Roleplay," I say "pffft, because players that play on fully permadeath muds still know all their 'buddies" when they restart and go and rp with them regardless of whether they have a "new character" or not. It is exactly the same on a mud that you don't have permadeath, but lose knowledge of characters on death: Your friends also come help you regear, get coins, and you get back into the "group" you play with. So, in short, there is no difference between a permadeath mud and a mud that has alternative methods of negativity on death, when it comes to social interaction or group power. The players still find their buddies and play with them. However, when it comes to exploring or adventuring, permadeath or not permadeath, the real question is "how harsh is death?" And the harsher the death, the more timid the player is to explore.

Well, I have had the opposite experience. The mud where I play, which has what I consider true permadeath (one death = the end, no exceptions or chance of avoidance), the issue you describe where buddies just get together again after a death has never been a noticeable problem. Of course it's not unheard of that a player ends up playing with the same gang as they did with a previous character, but if it's done in a manner that makes it obvious that they did it for OOC reasons, and without the proper in-character approach, the staff will typically take note and reprimend the player for it. Most players, upon losing a character, choose to play a completely different character in another area specifically to avoid ending up with the same associates, in the same plotlines, or in the same clan. There's a gigantic difference between permadeath and no permadeath, I find your statement to be in complete conflict with what I've experienced through years of mudding. I'll venture to claim that permadeath is usually the biggest differentiating factor between any two given muds; no other single property will set two games more apart than whether or not death means the loss of your character.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by chaosprime It's possible to wind up permadead on LS, but you have to kinda work at it. You start with 30 lives and are deleted if you lose all of them; you can buy more with gold. So it's unusual and generally a sign of large amounts of carelessness for this to happen. The main exception to all that is Yog-Sothoth, who, if you're a ghost in his presence, will start eating your lives.

While permanently dead, that's not really what I meant by permadeath. I mean death as an immediate and realistic conclusion.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Throttle I'll venture to claim that permadeath is usually the biggest differentiating factor between any two given muds; no other single property will set two games more apart than whether or not death means the loss of your character.

I disagree. RP enforced vs. Hack/slash, is a MUCH bigger difference. Though I will say that some games claim rp enforced but have 13 year olds running around talking about Halo 3 and Xbox mid game. I see hardly any difference in player action in perma vs resurrected death.

[Milawe]

I definitely don't knock permadeath, and I don't have a gripe with persistant characters through death either. Honestly, I feel that both is a risk/reward type of thing, and I don't think one is much better than the other when talking outside the scope of a specific game. Permadeath doesn't make anyone play more "realistically" than a non-peramdeath game with harsh penalties or even undesireable death penalties. The game designs that create unrealistic play are games like WoW where you will die in order to get somewhere faster or other games where you can use death as a quick teleport. That, however, is game design choice.

On our game, death is harsh. If a character chooses to die, everyone in the game knows that they're making a huge sacrifice, and sometimes, you just don't come back from it. You VERY rarely see anyone doing something that they know will result in death without a great deal of RP to back it up because it results in months and sometimes years of work.

I've been parts of permadeath games where the character is designed to die from the beginning. That's RP, but it's not exactly always realistic. It tells a story, and sometimes, it tells a GREAT story. It doesn't necessarily mean that it ALWAYS tells a good story or that it's always good RP.

In ANY game I play, permadeath or not, I always try to survive, and if I can survive, then I always try to excel. Depending on the game design, I will usually be cautious and diplomatic until I am able to begin manipulating things my way. This is consistant for me in permadeath or non-permadeath games. I'm thankful to a good friend who convinced me to try permadeath games, but my love will always be persistant character play with a serious death penalty. Above all, I look for RP enforced games. I find that to be the biggest sticking point for me in looking for a MUD regardless of there being permadeath or not.

[Throttle]

To me, it's not as much about whether or not players take greater risks or try harder to survive. On roleplaying muds, permadeath serves as a means to enhance roleplay. There are many things you can't really do, or won't get much out of doing, if death is just a setback. How are you going to roleplay an assassination if the target, upon being killed, just returns with some coded penalties? Or how do you explain what happened when he is revived by the use of an OOC reward? How many player-established plots will have very awkward endings or fade out on the drawing board when faced with the obstacle of non-permanent death?

It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath. If there's a way around dying, well then you usually don't get all-out roleplay where the players are completely in-character at all times. I don't mind games that consider themselves "roleplaying enforced" while having such things as free-for-all OOC channels, non-permadeath, or experience/levels. It's the game developer's choice, and it's entirely a matter of personal opinion whether or not it's the best type of game. I've just never seen a mud with anything but my interpretation of true permadeath, or with any of the above qualities (levels, gossip channels etc.), that could give me the true roleplaying experience.

When I evaluate a roleplaying mud for its quality of roleplay, one of the main deciding factors is its death system. Nothing scores higher than simple one-strike-out permadeath, just as a level/class-less system is the most realistic. The more out-of-character aspects that you factor in, the less focus there will be on roleplaying, whether it's the developers' decision or a result of a playerbase who has trouble immersing completely with their characters and the game world.

[Newworlds]

First,

Mina hit the nail on the head.

But in response to some of these quotes, I must take issue as follows:

Originally Posted by Throttle On roleplaying muds, permadeath serves as a means to enhance roleplay. There are many things you can't really do, or won't get much out of doing, if death is just a setback.

Completely disagree with this. I've seen zero roleplay on the permadeath of someone and zero roleplay on the pendeath (penalty death) and also fantastic roleplay on both, so this premise is false, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Throttle How are you going to roleplay an assassination if the target, upon being killed, just returns with some coded penalties? Or how do you explain what happened when he is revived by the use of an OOC reward? How many player-established plots will have very awkward endings or fade out on the drawing board when faced with the obstacle of non-permanent death?

Easily and consistently and depends entirely on the model whether permadeath or pendeath.

Originally Posted by Throttle It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath.

I really hate the "realism" argument. Muds aren't real nor do they try to be real. The best quote I heard on this is the following: "Look, I don't want to have to eat every 5 or 6 hours and then take a sh** once or twice a day. Get real? No thanks."

Originally Posted by Throttle I've just never seen a mud with anything but my interpretation of true permadeath, or with any of the above qualities (levels, gossip channels etc.), that could give me the true roleplaying experience.

Exactly. And for you permadeath is your marker for roleplay. For hundreds others it is not and for many it is even a detriment to roleplay.

Originally Posted by Throttle When I evaluate a roleplaying mud for its quality of roleplay, one of the main deciding factors is its death system. Nothing scores higher than simple one-strike-out permadeath, just as a level/class-less system is the most realistic.

Again the realism factor. Seriously, if you were serious about realism, you'd be finding a game that makes you put a bandaid on when you get a cut, then wait 2 weeks for it to heal if it does at all. You would sleep on the game IC 8 hours a day, and use the toilet, vomit when you get sick, have eyesight problems, get mosquito bites, get pregnant when you had sex as well as contract any number of diseases. You would even get fat when eating and be weaker depending on the type of food you ate, sluggish when you fight, have a shorter right arm then left, be slower right after you woke up or late at night, have wind factors on projectile weapons, vision problems depending on weather. This list could continue on, but I think you get the picture.

In short, kill the "realism" thing. It is only as real as the world you play in, otherwise I'd be freaking out seeing that dog talk to that unicorn.

Finally, I'm not against permadeath or pendeath, I just think after playing numerous RPI's and RPE's and only RPI/RPE's I think exactly like Mina. Neither is better, the quality of RP is fully based on the game and players. I just have a gripe with "permadeath" junkies that call it the "end all" with rp. It isn't, nor is it any better at making real rp than pendeath.

[Throttle]

Completely disagree with this. I've seen zero roleplay on the permadeath of someone and zero roleplay on the pendeath (penalty death) and also fantastic roleplay on both, so this premise is false, in my opinion.

How is it false? You can't possibly argue that permadeath is not a measure taken to promote roleplay. Whether or not it works is a matter of personal experience. Ours must conflict into the extremes as I have almost always found the quality of a mud's roleplay to be in direct proportion to its realism and, thus, in part, its permadeath system. I've tried every RPI mud I've been able to find, and a lot of RPE muds. None of the ones without permadeath in some form have provided what I'd consider even moderate-quality roleplay, and only the ones with true permadeath have provided the complete and believable roleplay experience.

I really hate the "realism" argument. Muds aren't real nor do they try to be real. The best quote I heard on this is the following: "Look, I don't want to have to eat every 5 or 6 hours and then take a sh** once or twice a day. Get real? No thanks."

The best roleplaying muds find an acceptable balance between realism and playability. If the goal is full-focused roleplay with as little OOC interference as possible, this means that the only realistic aspects that are removed are such things as the need to go to the bathroom, which nobody wants to play. To dismiss realism in an argument about roleplay is pretty odd.

Exactly. And for you permadeath is your marker for roleplay. For hundreds others it is not and for many it is even a detriment to roleplay.

It's one of my markers for roleplay. Nothing would deter me more than having my character kill another character for an entirely in-character reason, and then seeing that same character the next day walking around, especially (and I have experienced this) if they're walking around shouting "beware the assassin Amos, he's a tall dark-skinned man who wears a grey mask!". Or seeing players commit ridiculous acts of nonsense because they knew that it couldn't result in real death; that's what I've seen on every self-proclaimed roleplaying mud where death was just a setback that you could work around.

Again the realism factor. Seriously, if you were serious about realism, you'd be finding a game that makes you put a bandaid on when you get a cut, then wait 2 weeks for it to heal if it does at all. You would sleep on the game IC 8 hours a day, and use the toilet, vomit when you get sick, have eyesight problems, get mosquito bites, get pregnant when you had sex as well as contract any number of diseases. You would even get fat when eating and be weaker depending on the type of food you ate, sluggish when you fight, have a shorter right arm then left, be slower right after you woke up or late at night, have wind factors on projectile weapons, vision problems depending on weather. This list could continue on, but I think you get the picture.

Ah, but I do look for games that incorporate as many aspects of realism as possible without sacrificing playability to a critical degree. If you look at any of the long-standing, established and popular RPI muds, you'll find that the very key ingredient is realism, the thing that makes people roleplay responsibly and convincingly because one of the possible consequences to not doing so could be, you know, death.

In short, kill the "realism" thing. It is only as real as the world you play in, otherwise I'd be freaking out seeing that dog talk to that unicorn.

To dismiss realism in a discussion about roleplay is about as valid as dismissing the idea of class balance on a hack'n'slash PvP mud. If the players aren't captivated and immersed with the game they play, they'll usually have a harder time roleplaying their character to the fullest. For the exact same reason that a movie wouldn't be as good if every five minutes you catch a glimpse of the camera crew, my opinion is that the quality of a roleplaying mud is proportionate to how often in-game events and factors remind you that it's just a game. Of course the player knows that it's a game, but the less they think about it while roleplaying, the better they do it.

Finally, I'm not against permadeath or pendeath, I just think after playing numerous RPI's and RPE's and only RPI/RPE's I think exactly like Mina. Neither is better, the quality of RP is fully based on the game and players. I just have a gripe with "permadeath" junkies that call it the "end all" with rp. It isn't, nor is it any better at making real rp than pendeath.

My experiences, and thus opinions, are in direct conflict with this statement. I think you'll find similar response from just about any established roleplayer on every single RPI mud that incorporates such outrageous aspects as realism and permanent death.

Also, I find it amusing when in a discussion about roleplay, somebody mentions a "roleplaying mud" that rewards people who "roleplay often". On RPI muds, with the exception of a few inevitable twinks who are usually dealt with, everybody always roleplays, at all times, without exception. That's why RPI is the only thing I've ever been able to consider the true roleplaying experience. It's very much comprable to theater: if the actors are on stage in the middle of a performance, they don't just go out of character. Does it sound elitist? Hell yeah. But it has been my unfailing experience through ten years of mudding, with no exception. The roleplay is best where every measure is taken to promote it.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Throttle How is it false? You can't possibly argue that permadeath is not a measure taken to promote roleplay. Whether or not it works is a matter of personal experience. Ours must conflict into the extremes as I have almost always found the quality of a mud's roleplay to be in direct proportion to its realism and, thus, in part, its permadeath system. I've tried every RPI mud I've been able to find, and a lot of RPE muds. None of the ones without permadeath in some form have provided what I'd consider even moderate-quality roleplay, and only the ones with true permadeath have provided the complete and believable roleplay experience.

Read what I wrote again. I didn't say it doesn't promote roleplay. I said, it doesn't promote it anymore than pendeath.

Originally Posted by Throttle The best roleplaying muds find an acceptable balance between realism and playability. If the goal is full-focused roleplay with as little OOC interference as possible, this means that the only realistic aspects that are removed are such things as the need to go to the bathroom, which nobody wants to play. To dismiss realism in an argument about roleplay is pretty odd.

You must play alot of non-fantasy muds then. Fantasy by definition is not-real, hence fantasy. Yes, yes, you can argue flying a dragon can be real in a land of Dragon Masters, but how does a person falling from the dragon and floating to the ground any "less real" than the person falling and not "dieing forever"?

Originally Posted by Throttle It's one of my markers for roleplay. Nothing would deter me more than having my character kill another character for an entirely in-character reason, and then seeing that same character the next day walking around, especially (and I have experienced this) if they're walking around shouting "beware the assassin

Sounds like your problem is more of a PK rule issue than a permadeath issue.

Originally Posted by Throttle Ah, but I do look for games that incorporate as many aspects of realism as possible without sacrificing playability to a critical degree. If you look at any of the long-standing, established and popular RPI muds, you'll find that the very key ingredient is realism, the thing that makes people roleplay responsibly and convincingly because one of the possible consequences to not doing so could be, you know, death.

RPI=Roleplay Intense. This has nothing to do with "great roleplay" but rather, that roleplay is "intense." Meaning, lots of pk, perhaps events or story that keep a player on the proverbial "edge of your seat." It is not automatically synonomous with great roleplay, but likely more on the "killer" side or harsh roleplay vs. romantic (unless intense romance is involved ) or more orderly established cities or areas. Though I tend to think RPE and RPI can be interchangeable depending on story, plot, and what is happening at the time in the game.

Originally Posted by Throttle To dismiss realism in a discussion about roleplay is about as valid as dismissing the idea of class balance on a hack'n'slash PvP mud. If the players aren't captivated and immersed with the game they play, they'll usually have a harder time roleplaying their character to the fullest.

I dismiss realism in the context that you put it. By saying that ONLY permadeath is true realism would be like saying, if your game doesn't permanately kill monsters, then that isn't real. When that monster dies, by god it better stay dead! It will be a fun mud when you have 2 rabbits left to kill and only because no one found the rabbit hole in the fourth continent on the third planet. Or do they get to start again as well as a new character, maybe each rabbit has a new unique name?

Originally Posted by Throttle My experiences, and thus opinions, are in direct conflict with this statement. I think you'll find similar response from just about any established roleplayer on every single RPI mud that incorporates such outrageous aspects as realism and permanent death.

Actually what I've found (and why NW only has moderate permadeath) is that most permadeath muds end up with long time pk'ers that somehow happened to not die in the first couple years and they run the show, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Throttle Also, I find it amusing when in a discussion about roleplay, somebody mentions a "roleplaying mud" that rewards people who "roleplay often". On RPI muds, with the exception of a few inevitable twinks who are usually dealt with, everybody always roleplays, at all times, without exception. That's why RPI is the only thing I've ever been able to consider the true roleplaying experience.

That's a bold statement. What RPE mud doesn't roleplay at all times without exception. Hence the term Roleplay ENFORCED. I think you are talking about Roleplay Encouraged or Roleplay not required games.

To add to this though, I'll make the same statement I made a long time ago. If you want a true experience, turn off all distractions when you are gaming if possible. But for you to claim that someone getting a bonus for roleplaying akin to watching a movie and seeing a camera crew, I can only tell you that I agree with keeping distractions OOC to a minimum, however it is part of the game in most circumstances.

Are you saying that the games you play have zero score, health, prompt, stats, etc. If so, please tell me where you play, I'd love to see how this works. While NW keeps such things reduced, even on this roleplay enforced mud, you can see your stats as often as you like. Under your suggestions, there would be no commands at all that have anything to do with statistics about anything. Even help files would be non-existant. And you would not load any IRC's (IM, etc.), turn off the TV, your cell phone, and ignore anyone knocking on the door to be "fully immersed." Let's be a little realistic here.

Originally Posted by Throttle The roleplay is best where every measure is taken to promote it.

Strange that you make this final statement but denounce roleplay being rewarded.

[Throttle]

RPI=Roleplay Intense. This has nothing to do with "great roleplay" but rather, that roleplay is "intense." Meaning, lots of pk, perhaps events or story that keep a player on the proverbial "edge of your seat." It is not automatically synonomous with great roleplay, but likely more on the "killer" side or harsh roleplay vs. romantic (unless intense romance is involved ) or more orderly established cities or areas. Though I tend to think RPE and RPI can be interchangeable depending on story, plot, and what is happening at the time in the game.

I get the impression that you don't really know what RPI is about. If you think it's all about pk, you've either played the wrong muds or you haven't played RPIs enough to get it. Free-for-all pk is there because it has to be an option for your character when the situation arises where it's in-character to do so. As opposed to many muds where you either kill someone and they come back right away, or you simply can't kill somebody because of a set of rules.

I dismiss realism in the context that you put it. By saying that ONLY permadeath is true realism would be like saying, if your game doesn't permanately kill monsters, then that isn't real. When that monster dies, by god it better stay dead! It will be a fun mud when you have 2 rabbits left to kill and only because no one found the rabbit hole in the fourth continent on the third planet. Or do they get to start again as well as a new character, maybe each rabbit has a new unique name?

That's just silly. Slain NPCs on roleplaying muds return because it's natural for them to do so. If you kill a young deer, and the next day there's another young deer, it's because - surprise - animals tend to reproduce. Such NPCs are disposable because they're not unique, and they return because there's not an exhaustable amount of proverbial deers in the world. And with permadeath, if you kill a character, another character is created. That's so much less jarring than the alternative, where when you kill someone they face some penalty or sacrifice and then they bounce right back in. If the NPC you want to kill is of the unique kind, where having it return after a while isn't logical, you should be able to arrange with the staff for your character to assassinate the NPC in question and they should remove/replace the NPC to reflect in-character events that affected the game world. That's part of what makes a roleplaying game: your character can affect the world in a tangible way.

Actually what I've found (and why NW only has moderate permadeath) is that most permadeath muds end up with long time pk'ers that somehow happened to not die in the first couple years and they run the show, so to speak.

On the several RPI muds where I have been an established player, this has never been a real problem. If someone is pk'ing without a valid in-character reason, and especially if they do so repeatedly over a long period of time, the staff will intervene and make sure the player either stops or is removed. Again, if that happens, it's a good indication that the game's focus is on roleplay. If it doesn't happen, I see it as the opposite.

That's a bold statement. What RPE mud doesn't roleplay at all times without exception. Hence the term Roleplay ENFORCED. I think you are talking about Roleplay Encouraged or Roleplay not required games.

I am talking about RPI versus RPEnforced. I have seen many RPEs where many players do not roleplay at all times. Even ones ranked top20 on TMS.

Are you saying that the games you play have zero score, health, prompt, stats, etc. If so, please tell me where you play, I'd love to see how this works. While NW keeps such things reduced, even on this roleplay enforced mud, you can see your stats as often as you like. Under your suggestions, there would be no commands at all that have anything to do with statistics about anything. Even help files would be non-existant. And you would not load any IRC's (IM, etc.), turn off the TV, your cell phone, and ignore anyone knocking on the door to be "fully immersed." Let's be a little realistic here.

Roleplaying muds still have score, health, stats and so on. A living, breathing person has physical and mental attributes compared to others, one man isn't as strong as the next, so of course there's a way to see this. It can be kept to an acceptable minimum, and one of the RPIs that I play on has a wounds system as opposed to a hit points system, which is a very good example of where realism can be an extremely valuable roleplaying asset. There are going to be OOC commands because it's ultimately necessary, it's a text-based game after all. And on RPI muds, it's certainly not unheard of for people to turn off the TV, ignore calls and become as fully immersed as it's possible in a computer game. I'm being very realistic.

Strange that you make this final statement but denounce roleplay being rewarded.

I'm not denouncing the rewarding of roleplay. I am questioning the idea of, on a roleplaying mud, rewarding somebody for roleplaying often. How is "often" good enough if roleplay is enforced? How is it good enough for rewards? If everyone on an RPI/RPE mud is not roleplaying at all times, it's because something's wrong. Usually it's either because the players are bad roleplayers, or because the game isn't good enough for them to want to roleplay at all times.

[Newworlds]

I could go on and spam this thread with more contrary arguments to everything you say here and exampling out what you have said about NPC's, RPI, Pk, with more controversy, but I think we will just agree to disagree and save everyone's time and shorten this to one point. The point you glossed over in your last post:

I think your problem is more of a PK Rule issue than a permadeath issue.

[Esithae]

I play on a MUD with permdeath, and I must say it's the best experience I've ever had (and the permdeath is part of that). By permdeath, I do mean the one-strike-you're-out permanently type of permdeath. Here are the advantages of a system that utilizes well-done permdeath, as I see them:

You rarely end up with two or three top characters owning the game for everyone underneath them. The top characters tend to cycle as the ones on the top die.

Players of beloved characters tend to more seriously consider their hunting, fights, training and PKS, as there is always the possibility such will backfire and result in your own death.

Risks are actually risky, and adrenaline-inspiring.

When you kill someone, they're dead. They don't come back the next day and taunt you and cause trouble for you.

When coupled with an RPI environment and an RP-focused OOC environment (taking emphasis away from levels/skills), I really have not been able to find a higher level of immersion. Yes, I think taking away permdeath would take away the level of immersion. What is the value of a character's life, if death is meaningless?

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Esithae I play on a MUD with permdeath, and I must say it's the best experience I've ever had (and the permdeath is part of that). By permdeath, I do mean the one-strike-you're-out permanently type of permdeath. Here are the advantages of a system that utilizes well-done permdeath, as I see them: You rarely end up with two or three top characters owning the game for everyone underneath them. The top characters tend to cycle as the ones on the top die. Players of beloved characters tend to more seriously consider their hunting, fights, training and PKS, as there is always the possibility such will backfire and result in your own death. Risks are actually risky, and adrenaline-inspiring. When you kill someone, they're dead. They don't come back the next day and taunt you and cause trouble for you. When coupled with an RPI environment and an RP-focused OOC environment (taking emphasis away from levels/skills), I really have not been able to find a higher level of immersion. Yes, I think taking away permdeath would take away the level of immersion. What is the value of a character's life, if death is meaningless?

All of these points can be said for any game that has risks involved. This is again, more about risks and results of action, than whether or not permadeath makes for great roleplay and immersion. Evenso, I must ask, what game do you play that the top players cycle all the time from death. I'm curious on that one? I've rarely if ever seen this.

[Lasher]

Originally Posted by Esithae When coupled with an RPI environment and an RP-focused OOC environment (taking emphasis away from levels/skills), I really have not been able to find a higher level of immersion. Yes, I think taking away permdeath would take away the level of immersion. What is the value of a character's life, if death is meaningless?

How often does a well established character die in a game like this? I've never played a MUD with perm-death. Or is that too general, equivalent to asking "How often does a character die in a MUD?".

When I pick up Guitar Hero or any other console game, I don't really care how my high score compares to anyone elses, I just want to enjoy playing the game. I imagine a MUD with regular perm-death would be similar to its players.

When I play a MUD or a game like Oblivion, I enjoy building up and constantly improving my character over time, finding a nice new piece of gear that's .01% better than the item its replacing but equally rare, etc .. so MUDs with player wipes/perm death don't appeal to me personally, but the idea is fascinating.

I've often had requests for a "hardcore" mode that is open PK and perm death with a separate set of hardcore rankings, but am skeptical on integrating that into an otherwise "just sometimes PK" mud...

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Lasher How often does a well established character die in a game like this? I've never played a MUD with perm-death. Or is that too general, equivalent to asking "How often does a character die in a MUD?".

Likely, quite general. Each mud and/or character could be different. On the two permdeath muds I played, the long timers never died, but most others would die alot in the first few months of play.

Originally Posted by Lasher I've often had requests for a "hardcore" mode that is open PK and perm death with a separate set of hardcore rankings, but am skeptical on integrating that into an otherwise "just sometimes PK" mud...

I find that those seeking permdeath are the same that seek "free pk", at least from what I've found when a they arrive in NW and what I've read on forums and seen, meaning that permdeath and pk seem to go hand in hand.

[Esithae]

I'm going to disagree and say no, it's really about the possibility of loosing the character for doing something risky and/or stupid. Sure, you can have risks and consequences in any game, with varying levels of stakes. But the stakes are never going to get as high as the possible death of the character you've invested X number of days of time into. And that's really what it comes down to, that all-or-nothing.

I play Armageddon. And I definitely didn't say all the time, I said tend. I've seen or heard of the deaths of several really powerful characters (one of which was, I believe, the most powerful in the game, but since we don't pass around a lot of OOC, I don't know how well informed I am on that), usually as a result of either people ganging up on them and getting rid of them, or as a result of plots, or as a result of stupid decisions.

I would say that four months is pretty long lived, though my lives have varied erratically. And hey, I love it. I really focus more on the character's RP than on getting gear or skilling up or anything else due to the permdeath, because the gear isn't always going to last me that long. But the stories I make are going to stick around even after my character is dead.