[Will]

I know this is a completely subjective question, but I'm truly curious.

Where do you find the most interesting, most intense PvP and player vs. mob combat in the MUD world?

[Fern]

I'm biased, but I like Legends of Karinth for its complete strategic flexibility (don't like your stance and style of combat? find a trainer, erase the skills, get the training hours back, and try something new).

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Will I know this is a completely subjective question, but I'm truly curious.

It is indeed completely subjective. Combat plays an important role in many muds, and people tend to stick with the systems they like, so I suspect the majority of players consider their favourite mud to have the "best" combat system.

You might find the responses more interesting if you try and move away from the more subjective criteria. What combat systems allow you to use each weapon in a variety of different ways? What sort of support do different combat systems have for ranged weapons, two-handed weapons, shields, improvised weapons, etc? What type of injuries and penalties do combat systems support other than hit point loss? What sort of armour systems are utilised by different muds? And so on.

[Mabus]

Though it lacks a decent ranged component, I always liked Simutronic's Gemstone for the timed, non-auto melee combat. It was varied enough to provide a wide range of outcomes, but simple enough to be able to learn (the basics) in a short period of time.

A few links to illustrate:
Gemstone Combat
Gemstone Armor

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Will I know this is a completely subjective question, but I'm truly curious. Where do you find the most interesting, most intense PvP and player vs. mob combat in the MUD world?

Indeed subjective. For PVP I'm sure most would point to PK devoted games with complex systems if they like that. Some might say PVP in what instance, because does PVP mean PK PVP or just conflict player vs. player. And do you like robust, complex combat with with a thousand variables and ranged weapons, guns, lazers, armour, shields, etc. Or do you like simple melee? All based on player preference, I'd say.

Then you turn to PvM which can include another variety of styles from simple mobs and solo fights to huge groups, combined combat and intelligent mobs. Which all leads back to player preference.

Personally, I like large campaigns utilizing multiple skills, but not ultra complex so that it becomes impossible to figure out what is effective or not because you have 100's of varying styles of defense or offense (eg. Simple punch - Balled fist with pinky showing/hard fist/knife hand/knife hand 3 fingers/fist with thumb extended/half fist...etc etc.)

[Will]

Originally Posted by Mabus Though it lacks a decent ranged component, I always liked Simutronic's Gemstone for the timed, non-auto melee combat. It was varied enough to provide a wide range of outcomes, but simple enough to be able to learn (the basics) in a short period of time. A few links to illustrate: Gemstone Combat Gemstone Armor

Yeah. I'm a huge RoleMaster fan myself. Simutronics' implementation of the RM system used to make for intense team hunts. Then they dumbed everything down. It's hard to judge Gemstone as a platform for character vs. character conflict, since Simu always kind of discouraged it. The biggest problem I have with Simutronics' combat system is that higher level usually determines the winner in a fight. Great hunting mechanics, though.

[Ide]

I think it's important to note that best combat system and best PvP are pretty different domains.

With the caveat that I've never played Simutronics or IRE games, I'd say Legends of Karinth, GodWars II, and Blood Dusk, in no particular order.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Ide I think it's important to note that best combat system and best PvP are pretty different domains.

Care to elaborate?

To me, a "combat system" comprises the mechanics through which characters engage in battle, whether they are fighting mobs or other characters. I do realize that, in some games, the way you attack a character is very different from the way you would attack a bot. In any case, they are all "combat systems." I was just hoping people would share opinions regarding which ones are most interesting/intense/fun, and maybe tell a little bit why.

[Estarra]

Indeed, Iron Realms is known for their PvP systems. Players maintain a website to archive Iron Realms Combat Logs, if you are the type of person who likes reading combat logs. Judge for yourself!


(Oh, Lusternia is the best of course.)

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Will Care to elaborate?

The combat system is only one of the factors that contributes towards a decent PvP environment. Some of the most famous PK muds used combat systems that were little more than stock, yet they still provided a very enjoyable PvP experience. Equally, it's perfectly possible to have completely non-PvP games which utilise highly complex and enjoyable combat systems.

[Will]

Originally Posted by KaVir The combat system is only one of the factors that contributes towards a decent PvP environment. Some of the most famous PK muds used combat systems that were little more than stock, yet they still provided a very enjoyable PvP experience.

Honest question: How do you provide exciting PvP with stock mechanics?

Equally, it's perfectly possible to have completely non-PvP games which utilise highly complex and enjoyable combat systems.

Simutronics used to do a good job of this. Gemstone combat mechanics weren't exactly complex, I guess, but hunting was a blast.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Will Honest question: How do you provide exciting PvP with stock mechanics?

Well firstly, 'stock' doesn't necessarily mean 'bad' or even 'boring' - it's just old hat for someone who's already played a lot of muds.

But as I said, the combat system is only one of the factors that contributes towards a decent PvP environment. It's certainly possible to make the mud exciting by focusing on other aspects of the game - for example, you might have an intricate clan system which supports faction wars and a range of team-based events. Or you could put extra effort into character customisation, allowing players a huge amount of tactical freedom (as well as artistic licence) in designing a character tailored to their personal playing style. Even the cosmetics can make a big difference, particularly if you're trying to appeal to fans of a specific theme.

Originally Posted by Will Gemstone combat mechanics weren't exactly complex, I guess, but hunting was a blast.

Well there you go then - another example of how features other than the combat system can make PvP exciting.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by KaVir It is indeed completely subjective. Combat plays an important role in many muds, and people tend to stick with the systems they like, so I suspect the majority of players consider their favourite mud to have the "best" combat system. You might find the responses more interesting if you try and move away from the more subjective criteria. What combat systems allow you to use each weapon in a variety of different ways? What sort of support do different combat systems have for ranged weapons, two-handed weapons, shields, improvised weapons, etc? What type of injuries and penalties do combat systems support other than hit point loss? What sort of armour systems are utilised by different muds? And so on.

Agreed. Complexity isn't the same as quality, in any event. It also depends on how long you expect people to stay with your game-- the casual vs. hardcore gamers question.

There's a design decision there, but you're essentially choosing your audience. Some players won't touch a highly complex system, even if the initial stages are fairly simple. Conversely, the simple-and-light approach often lacks the depth to stay interesting for more than a couple weeks for many players.

Take your example of "What combat systems allow you to use each weapon in a variety of different ways?" If the various techniques are different in more than cosmetic ways, an experienced player now has an advantage over a newer player-- they'll make successful choices more often. Is this "newbie-unfriendly" and therefore not "best"? Entirely a subjective call.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Valg Agreed. Complexity isn't the same as quality, in any event. It also depends on how long you expect people to stay with your game-- the casual vs. hardcore gamers question. There's a design decision there, but you're essentially choosing your audience. Some players won't touch a highly complex system, even if the initial stages are fairly simple. Conversely, the simple-and-light approach often lacks the depth to stay interesting for more than a couple weeks for many players. Take your example of "What combat systems allow you to use each weapon in a variety of different ways?" If the various techniques are different in more than cosmetic ways, an experienced player now has an advantage over a newer player-- they'll make successful choices more often. Is this "newbie-unfriendly" and therefore not "best"? Entirely a subjective call.

All true, and I was hoping people would offer their opinions.