[scandum]

After the successful deletion of ZombieMUD (one of the bigger muds out there) and the Threshold fiasco it looks like the mud defamation league is after the biggest mud of all, Dragonrealms, which only has a lousy 700 players online during peak times on the main server.

DragonRealms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Delerak]

If it's not important enough for Wikipedia they can delete it.

It's supposed to be an online encyclopedia, and sorry, 700 people being on a game is not worthy of being in an encyclopedia in the real world, hence the clean-up on wikipedia. Granted, there are many pages that need to be deleted for it to be considered more noteworthy, but if a few crummy online MUD's get deleted, who honestly cares in the real world?

World of Warcraft deserves to be in the wikipedia for obvious reasons.

[WarHound]

If I was an editor, I'd push for all muds to be condensed into one article with links to webpages and all. Like it or not we're a fringe group on the outer-edge of the internet. .

[scandum]

It's not like I'm posting this to Google news.

There's been some work done on setting up a media wiki dedicated to muds (for those who refuse to work on wikia sites because of the obnoxious ads), but Lasher went awol and has yet to install the logo.

[Newworlds]

Gimme a break. Wikipedia has a billion pages of moronic entries. Not unlike Utube with the lamest videos (and worst quality) this side of a Mississippi ozark child birth home video. I give them about as much credence as news from the guy sitting on the corner that I drop 2 bits into his hat every morning.

[WarHound]

As absurd as some of it is, Wikipedia IS a valid source anymore. Or, at the very least, it's a repository for other, reliable sources. There's at least five times a day that something catches my interest and the first place I go to learn more about something is Wikipedia. Not because their information is always 100% correct or because it's always neutral, but because the information there is always backed up by outside sources which, by and large, ARE sourced and professional.

Dismissing it out of hand is BS, as is comparing it to youtube. Any jackass with a webcam can throw up whatever screechingly shrill conspiracy theories or remix of XXXXXX commercial and answer to no one but the people who harass them on their Comments section. Wikipedia, for the most part, enforces it's standards as far as sourced information goes.

Which brings us full circle. There have been a handful of MU-mentions in 'legitimate' gaming magazines. Just not enough.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Gimme a break. Wikipedia has a billion pages of moronic entries. Not unlike Utube with the lamest videos (and worst quality) this side of a Mississippi ozark child birth home video. I give them about as much credence as news from the guy sitting on the corner that I drop 2 bits into his hat every morning.

Considering as of today: 2,862,305 articles in English

I suggest you reconsider such an absurd remark.

[MudMann]

I think the article will be ok, the discussion certainly seems reasonable this time around as opposed to a potentially bitter ex player.

Quite an interesting read actually about the hoax, amazing to find the depths some folks will stoop too for a bit of cash.

[Voidrider]

Personally, I am rather disappointed in what seems to be little more than a nostalgic bookmarker for DR. I played GS3 and DR long before I had even known there were any free MUDs available and this Wiki entry doesn't do much of anything to remind me of the literal hours of play I invested in the game. Seriously, I know I had no life outside of working for a living since I recall actually playing for 78 hours straight on one occasion (yeah, my wife left for a work trip and returned to find me in the exact spot she had left me).

I am also surprised to learn that there are less than 3 million entries on the site. In this day and age, I can't understand why it would be removing any entries with so few. There are dozens of wikipedia wannabes out there and this one is supposed to be the definitive one? Obviously, they don't share the same mentality of so many mud admins that will gladly throw in as many stock zones as possible in order to fatten the hog :P

"We want to be the recognized source for online information! Hmm, well we can remove all of the letter "z" entries; no one ever looks at those...".

[Delerak]

Why are you surprised there's less than 3 million entries? They are articles that are supposed to have sources and be relatively important information. In context, that's a ****load of pages full of info.

MUD's simply are not important in relation to other information in the encyclopedia.

If we look back to the way encyclopedia's used to be and still are used you'll never find any information on MUDs most likely.

[scandum]

Originally Posted by Delerak MUD's simply are not important in relation to other information in the encyclopedia.

With the right kind of encapsulation it wouldn't be an issue, but it seems impossible to convince people to stop categorizing their MUDs as 'mmorpgs', 'virtual communities', 'Role-playing video games', 'Fantasy video games', etc. There's the 'MUD games' category which should suffice.

In a way Wikipedia is ideal because it forces a handful of people to step up and properly source their contributions, on the other hand, the tendency of people to plug their MUDs beyond the mud categories is bound to get editors in the mood to delete the spam that crawls where it shouldn't.

This is why insignificant articles that stay within their niche survive, while 'bubba mud', that wants to be in the 'horror video game' category, gets nukes.

Can't get deleted if they can't find you.

[Milawe]

Simultronics was one of the sponsors of IMGDC. (They own GS3 and DR.) The founder of Simu was there, and he reported that, between the two games, they bring in $2,000,000 a year on TEXT GAMES alone. Obviously, the two games have also been out for years, so it's hard to discount them as insignificant or irrelevent.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Milawe Simultronics was one of the sponsors of IMGDC. (They own GS3 and DR.) The founder of Simu was there, and he reported that, between the two games, they bring in $2,000,000 a year on TEXT GAMES alone. Obviously, the two games have also been out for years, so it's hard to discount them as insignificant or irrelevent.

I wouldn't put too much weight on a business man's word.

Is this the company you're referring to?
Simutronics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ironically on wikipedia.

Also play.net >> Where adventure finds you.

I cannot find an actual website for the company at all, and asides from their commercial muds, even if they do bring in 2 mill a year, it doesn't mean anything to an encyclopedic page. Just because a game has been around for years doesn't mean it has any significance or relevance to an encyclopedia.

Until MUDs have a serious significance, which they never will, they won't be taken seriously by mainstream media.

They will always be underground.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Delerak Why are you surprised there's less than 3 million entries? They are articles that are supposed to have sources and be relatively important information. In context, that's a ****load of pages full of info. MUD's simply are not important in relation to other information in the encyclopedia. If we look back to the way encyclopedia's used to be and still are used you'll never find any information on MUDs most likely.

Yeah, because it's oh so important to have entries for every TV show and silly anime cartoon known to man listed as articles there. Such cultural diversity can't be expunged.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Samson Yeah, because it's oh so important to have entries for every TV show and silly anime cartoon known to man listed as articles there. Such cultural diversity can't be expunged.

That's not the point. We also have to realize that these are established cultural icons, with a far larger following then any single mud can ever hope to achieve.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Delerak That's not the point. We also have to realize that these are established cultural icons, with a far larger following then any single mud can ever hope to achieve.

And MUD communities aren't? Your arguments against MUDs in general on Wiki are odd indeed. As if you were the author against these entries. Much of wikipedia IS diverse, unimportant, and has no significance on NUMBERS in terms of relevance. It is completely subjective based on the whims of the people who run oversight there and who post the entries. Why are you defending Wiki? It's like one of Bill Gates' lackeys defending Windows as the best operating system.

Let's talk about an example. Wasn't hard to find one, try looking up Kdice. An online 7 player game (not even a MMOG. It has a donation system, it had less than 50 players on playing at time of this post. It has an amature website, chat like forums, is very obscure and has unverified claims as to its references. Tell me the nitch where this game came from or the iconic history.

It is simple. Wiki's own history is a plethora of subjective opinions and nearly all entries that have to do with commercial enterprises are started and referenced by the people who own or have stake in the company. Don't take my word for it, you can find the best information on wikipedia here: wikipedia encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds And MUD communities aren't? Your arguments against MUDs in general on Wiki are odd indeed. As if you were the author against these entries. Much of wikipedia IS diverse, unimportant, and has no significance on NUMBERS in terms of relevance. It is completely subjective based on the whims of the people who run oversight there and who post the entries. Why are you defending Wiki? It's like one of Bill Gates' lackeys defending Windows as the best operating system. Let's talk about an example. Wasn't hard to find one, try looking up Kdice. An online 7 player game (not even a MMOG. It has a donation system, it had less than 50 players on playing at time of this post. It has an amature website, chat like forums, is very obscure and has unverified claims as to its references. Tell me the nitch where this game came from or the iconic history. It is simple. Wiki's own history is a plethora of subjective opinions and nearly all entries that have to do with commercial enterprises are started and referenced by the people who own or have stake in the company. Don't take my word for it, you can find the best information on wikipedia here: wikipedia encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

If you find a pointless entry with no significance, you can easily get it deleted by reporting it to the mods on Wikipedia. That's the whole point. The problem you're missing is that wikipedia operates on such a massive scale, they simply can't keep up with the amount of entries. If you have a better system, by all means write a draft and post it to wikipedia.

[Orrin]

Originally Posted by Delerak I cannot find an actual website for the company at all, and asides from their commercial muds, even if they do bring in 2 mill a year, it doesn't mean anything to an encyclopedic page.

I guess this would be their corporate website.

You seem to be implying that they aren't a very noteworthy company, yet as well as their MUDs they also develop MMO middleware which has been licensed by Bioware for an upcoming game you may have heard of.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Orrin I guess this would be their corporate website. You seem to be implying that they aren't a very noteworthy company, yet as well as their MUDs they also develop MMO middleware which has been licensed by Bioware for an upcoming game you may have heard of.

I'm confused as to how their game engine is relevant at all to Wikipedia deleting MUDs that have only a cult following of players and are trying to get onto wikipedia to advertise.

I'm not refuting the company, nor do I care. We also can't make any judgment on this so-called MMO engine until we actually see the games, and I am sure it's impressive if it netted Bioware and Bethesda which are both big gaming companies. But I also am a skeptic and until I see solid evidence of anything impressive, my opinion is one of indifference.

[scandum]

Originally Posted by Delerak I wouldn't put too much weight on a business man's word.

If you look at their player base and payment system $2M would be a very low estimate, most likely it's their net profit.

[ShadowsDawn]

Originally Posted by Delerak I'm not refuting the company, nor do I care. We also can't make any judgment on this so-called MMO engine until we actually see the games, and I am sure it's impressive if it netted Bioware and Bethesda which are both big gaming companies. But I also am a skeptic and until I see solid evidence of anything impressive, my opinion is one of indifference.

Having gotten to look at tech info on several commercial MMO engines, including Hero Engine, back when I was close to getting funding for a commercial game.. it is an impressive piece of work. Had I been able to secure the funds, I'd have chosen Hero Engine over the other ones I had researched. Hero Engine is a wet dream for MMO developers considering what it offers, and at the time I was doing the research it offered things I didn't find in the others, but it could do the things the others could.

Yes, it does remain to be seen what companies do with it, including Simutronics themselves. However, it will be more likely that the licensees dropped the ball if their games are not good rather than the enginehindering them from doing things right. In other words, Simutronics has a very impressive tool, now just need studios to use it properly and to its' full potential.

[Milawe]

I saw the HeroEngine being used by the HeroEngine team itself at the conference. They were one of the sponsors, brought 5 of their designers, and were working on Hero's Journey (their upcoming MMO) right in the middle of the conference. It is nothing short of amazing what they were able to do with it. It was awesome to see a volcano spewing a big ball of fire (even if it isn't likely to happen in real life) growing before my very eyes.

I doubt the KOTOR project, which has serious funding behind it, would use a sub-par engine.