[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by KaVir There are a few other muds out there that categorise themselves as "GodWars" style muds, and offer very similar gameplay, but claim not to be derived from the GodWars code. So the label doesn't just represent a codebase, it's also used to refer to a subgenre and general style of gameplay.

Yep! That's my point. Even if the differences are minor, the branding is not confusing in cases like that. I don't think that definition is just wrapped up in the codebase. I do think that because there is a codebase, you can say that there is a very specific genre/style assumed with that label, in both the case of Godwars and RPI.

I'm not against the list established by Prof either; it's a pretty solid list of features. Still, the fact that there is an open-source engine helps to anchor that branding. You know what you get, generally, when you try to play a Godwars MUD. You know what you get, generally, when you try to play an RPI MUD.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by prof1515 Just listing those games starting with the letter A produces more than a tenth of that figure.... At some point you really should stop embarassing yourself by making comments so easy to refute just by spending a few seconds doing a search of "Roleplay: Mandatory" games on this site. The animosity is completely owing to ignorance like that which you continually demonstrate. By the way, I'm still waiting to hear your evidence to support your claims regarding the term RPI. You asked for evidence to the historical definition and it was provided but you still have yet to do the same to support your view. So, who's the one with the continual BS?

Oh boy oh boy oh boy. Do I really have to respond to your lack of intellect? Yes, I suppose I do. And I will use your words to do so. If you spent a few seconds actually CHECKING the games you listed (like you seem to do with every RPI game you claim is active), you would find that 90% of the games you listed are no longer active AND no longer even have webpages. Not to mention that 2 of the few that are active are what you claim to be RPI's not RPE's. My goodness man, do yourself and us a service and research before you continue your ignorant non facts.

[Bakha]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Are you seriously claiming that there are 350 RPE's out there that someone has to WEED through to find the game they want that is Roleplay Enforced? I'd be suprised if you could name a 10th of that.

Originally Posted by Newworlds If you spent a few seconds actually CHECKING the games you listed (like you seem to do with every RPI game you claim is active), you would find that 90% of the games you listed are no longer active AND no longer even have webpages

You mean WEEDING through them?

You two are just determined to not get along, not agree, and fight at every turn.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Newworlds If you spent a few seconds actually CHECKING the games you listed (like you seem to do with every RPI game you claim is active), you would find that 90% of the games you listed are no longer active AND no longer even have webpages.

Wrong again as usual.

The RPMUD Network's Operating Committee did indeed check all 360+ RP MUDs for which we could find a contact address. Each was checked to see if they were operating and open for players. So, you're wrong there.

For the record there are 553 RP-enforced MU*s listed on TMS, TMC along with a few that were found by searching the web. Of them, over 360 had email addresses listed but a couple of them were not RP-enforced leaving just a tad over 360. Those without an email address were excluded from our check since we could not contact them and the purpose at the time was to email them about our elections (At a future date we will check the 200 or so that did not have email addresses listed before we put them into our database). Of those 360+ with email addresses, 225 of them are open for play. That's just over 60% of them and just a tad under 50% of all the RPEs in existance. Not 10% as you claim. So, wrong yet again.

Of the 58 I listed there through a simple cut-and-paste, 21 of them are still active. I didn't have my USB drive handy to pull the list of open games with email addresses so I simply cut-and-pasted the first page (ie, the letter A) of the file that was on the computer I was sitting at. That file happened to be the raw list of games with email addresses from which we checked each and every one. The portion I pasted to my post was just those starting with the letter A.

So, wrong again.

However, if you want me to post 10% of the open games, here's that plus some extra just for kicks. As of December 2009, all of these games were running and open for play.

Aabahran: The Forsaken Lands
Aalynor’s Nexus
Abandoned Realms
Accursed Lands
After…
Age of Legends: Tales of the Lance
Age of the Throne
Akarian Dawn
Aldria OpenMush
Alveus: Hollow World
Angel City MUSH
Angelic Layer
Ark of Fools MUX
Armageddon
Arqueth
Arthenia: The Scarlet Dawn
Avendar: Crucible of Legends
Ashirion: The Broken Sphere
AtlantisMUX
Atonement
Avendar: The Crucible of Legends
Beleriand
Between Darkness and Light
Big Damn MUSH
Black Sands
BlackMUD
Blademaster: The Age of Darkness
Bleach MUSH: The Beginning
Blood of Dragons
Bloody Roar
BrMUD
BSG: Kharon (BSG: Resistance)
Buffy MUD
By Right of Blood
Carrion Fields
Castle D’Image
Castle Marrach
CastleMUD
Celathryan: The Uncharted
Chiaroscuro
ChronoMuck
The City By The Bay
Colorado Dreams
Corporate Expanse: From the Cradle
The Cortex
Cosmic Cuttlefish
Cruentus Apocalypsis
Crystal
Cult of Man: Southern Cross
CyberMUSH
CyberSphere
Daedal Macabre
Dark Age of Cybertron
Dark and Shattered Lands
Dark Isles
Dark Metal
Dark Mists
Dark Risings
The Darkening Sun
DartMud
DBZ Cataclysm
DC: 52
DCU: Legacies of Justice
Deckeon
Denver: Dark Alliance

That's just those with names beginning with A, B, C or D. So, again, your claim that I couldn't name 10% of them is wrong.

Not to mention that 2 of the few that are active are what you claim to be RPI's not RPE's.

You need to think before you open your mouth. RPIs are a type of RPE. Hence, the list of RPEs would include the RPIs which his why two were on the list I posted.

Thus you're wrong yet again.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by DonathinFrye I'm not against the list established by Prof either; it's a pretty solid list of features.

Just for the record, the list of characteristics was the result of a group of four people, three of whom had a collective 30+ years of experience playing and staffing RPIs (and as it's been several years since the list was compiled, it would be approaching near to 40 years of collective experience with RPIs).

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by prof1515 Thus you're wrong yet again.

Yes yes, I suppose I am terribly wrong. Just for kicks I randomly grabbed 5 names of your fantastically accurate list and found the following:
1 was open and running.
3 could not be found TMS Mud Database.
1 had a website and was listed as closed.

Yep, I'm wrong.

[Bakha]

I'm just going to break this down, to see if I have it right. I'm trying to follow this argument, but maybe I'm missing something.

Prof was arguing for RPI as a way to further delineate between different muds to make it easier for people to find the type of mud they're seeking. He made a claim that there were 350 RP-enforced muds out there that someone would have to sift through.

NewWorlds then laughed at his claim and said that was a ridiculous number. No one would have to "weed" out that many muds in order to find one they liked.

Prof then produced a list from a search of TMS that indicated that his number of 350 was at least close. That list was indicative of what a newbie would experience if they searched "rp mandatory" muds on TMS.

NewWorlds then said the list was bunk because once you start weeding (my use of the word now) out the muds that are no longer open and such, the number drops drastically.


Now here's my question. Isn't that the exact point? A newbie would do the search then have to start going to the muds (weeding) to find one that was open.


NewWorlds... this just seems like a silly line of argument you're making. I just don't get it. What are you trying to prove with it? How does it fit your agenda? Are you just trying to show that prof is wrong and that's it? I don't see how this point (were it even valid) really helps you out one way or the other.

Please enlighten me as to your motives here.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Bakha I'm just going to break this down, to see if I have it right. I'm trying to follow this argument, but maybe I'm missing something. NewWorlds... this just seems like a silly line of argument you're making. Please enlighten me as to your motives here.

No. I didn't mean to say a person wouldn't have to weed through 100's if not 1000's of games to find the RPE or whatever other type of game they are looking for. My point was that there are not that many active, quaility, RPE's in existance. Maybe 20 at last count. My point was that Prof was trying to establish 100's of RPE's with relatively few RPI's and I found that a bit skewed. There aren't that many of either genre.

Obviously a bad argument if I confused you with it and likely shouldn't have said anything.

[Bakha]

Originally Posted by Newworlds No. I didn't mean to say a person wouldn't have to weed through 100's if not 1000's of games to find the RPE or whatever other type of game they are looking for. My point was that there are not that many active, quaility, RPE's in existance. Maybe 20 at last count. My point was that Prof was trying to establish 100's of RPE's with relatively few RPI's and I found that a bit skewed. There aren't that many of either genre. Obviously a bad argument if I confused you with it and likely shouldn't have said anything.

Ahh, I get your point, now. Sorry, as I was just trying to keep tabs. You know that you and prof do keep me entertained, but I like to keep the argument sorted out and straight in my head.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Yes yes, I suppose I am terribly wrong. Just for kicks I randomly grabbed 5 names of your fantastically accurate list and found the following: 1 was open and running. 3 could not be found TMS Mud Database. 1 had a website and was listed as closed. Yep, I'm wrong.

Yes you are wrong. Read what I wrote again. Here, I'll repeat the relevant parts:

Originally Posted by prof1515 For the record there are 553 RP-enforced MU*s listed on TMS, TMC along with a few that were found by searching the web.

Originally Posted by prof1515 As of December 2009, all of these games were running and open for play.

The first list I put up was from the wrong file. It was the raw list of games from which we verified open status. It was made by looking at TMC's listings as well as TMS and by running searches on google using keyword combinations like "enforced role-playing", "enforced roleplaying", "role-play is enforced", "role-playing is enforced", "role-playing is required", etc. to try and find every game that might have such policy requirement.

Collectively, just putting together the list took somewhere in the realm of 40-50 hours of work (checking those with webpages for contact info, etc). The list totalled 553 games. A second list was then made of those games with an email address. This list consisted of 360+ games (I could say 363 but originally it had a few more which were found to not be role-playing enforced but rather PK MUDs that had mislabeled themselves either on TMS or TMC). From that list, the 7 members of the Committee divided up the list and checked each one to see if we could connect. This took three weeks of anywhere from 4 to all 7 of us checking for about 3-5 hours each Monday when we hold our meetings. Thus the verification of those 360+ games took the group approximately 40-50 more hours of checking. If we could log into the game and verify that it was open for play then that game was put on a third list. This final list comprised 225 games that were role-play enforced, were open for play and had an email address that we could contact. A portion of this list was the second one I posted consisting of the games starting with A, B, C and D. As of the 1st of December 2009, the list was completely accurate.

Originally Posted by Newworlds My point was that there are not that many active, quaility, RPE's in existance. Maybe 20 at last count. My point was that Prof was trying to establish 100's of RPE's with relatively few RPI's and I found that a bit skewed. There aren't that many of either genre.

There were 225 Role-Play Enforced (RPE) games that were open and which had a published email address in existance as of December 1, 2009. On that list, there were 6 RPIs. Of those, one (Black Sands) is no longer open for play while they fix some problems they had with their code, another (Dark Horizon) has since closed and their website is no longer running. However another (Atonement) has since opened for play leaving the total at five (six when Black Sands reopens following their code work). But 225 is "hundreds" (plural), especially when you factor in that there were 180+ (553-365=188) games we did not check because they provided no contact information and hence for our purposes at the time (contacting them about participation in our site) were of no use to us.

"Quality" is a subjective statement and I made nor do I make any judgement as to how many of them are "quality". Activity is something that depends on a variety of factors not the least of which is the timing during which one logs on. I never made such distinctions, I simply presented the number of games verified by the Committee. It's far, far, far more than 20.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Bakha Ahh, I get your point, now. Sorry, as I was just trying to keep tabs. You know that you and prof do keep me entertained, but I like to keep the argument sorted out and straight in my head.

LOL. You aren't the only one entertained. Seriously though, I agree with some that say it is bad for business on all sides and should probably just ignore whatever comes up regarding RPI.

[ShadowsDawn]

As one of the people on said Committee, Newworlds, I can fully vouch for the lists that Prof speaks of. It was annoying as **** having to go through all them, but he is quite correct. You should know by now that you can contact me to get the inside scoop on those things, lol.