[scandum]

Hopefully I won't mess up attaching the poll.

[prof1515]

Monkey's Uncle's Delusion!

It was coined as Multi-User Dungeon so really that's good enough for me. Sure it sounds horrible since the term "dungeon" conjures images of tabletop gaming with really bad RPGs but in many cases such a concept certainly applies. Domain is a bit odd depending on the definition of "domain" being used though the term could apply. Dimension is simply poor in any regard as it ranges from pretentious to outright ridiculous.

[Ide]

It shouldn't stand for anything. At this point it's just a 'mud'.

[KaVir]

Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. pp. 9-10, 741. ISBN 0-1310-1816-7. "[pp. 9-10] TinyMUD was deliberately intended to be distanced from the prevailing hack-and-slay AberMUD style, and the "D" in its name was said to stand for "Dimension" (or, occasionally, "Domain") rather than "Dungeon;" this is the ultimate cause of the MUD/MU* distinction that was to arise some years later. [pp. 741] The "D" in MUD stands for "Dungeon" [...] because the version of ZORK Roy played was a Fortran port called DUNGEN."

[Tristan1992]

Originally Posted by KaVir Bartle, Richard (2003). Designing Virtual Worlds. New Riders. pp. 9-10, 741. ISBN 0-1310-1816-7. "[pp. 9-10] TinyMUD was deliberately intended to be distanced from the prevailing hack-and-slay AberMUD style, and the "D" in its name was said to stand for "Dimension" (or, occasionally, "Domain") rather than "Dungeon;" this is the ultimate cause of the MUD/MU* distinction that was to arise some years later. [pp. 741] The "D" in MUD stands for "Dungeon" [...] because the version of ZORK Roy played was a Fortran port called DUNGEN."

Cool quote. It explains why polls like this are made and why there isn't a consensus about MUD. It also pretty much tells us what the D originally stood for. I like Multi User Dungeon myself. The word Dungeon does not bother me as it appears to bother some people. I wonder why? (aside from prof's explanation of it being associated with D&D; but some people's dislike for D&D is the subject for another poll/thread I imagine)

[silvarilon]

Originally Posted by Tristan1992 Cool quote. It explains why polls like this are made and why there isn't a consensus about MUD. It also pretty much tells us what the D originally stood for. I like Multi User Dungeon myself. The word Dungeon does not bother me as it appears to bother some people. I wonder why? (aside from prof's explanation of it being associated with D&D; but some people's dislike for D&D is the subject for another poll/thread I imagine)

Dislike for D&D isn't the issue. Games that have no relation to D&D being linked to it is the issue.

If I was making a game about heroes that travel through a structure, room by room, fighting opponents, then the association would be fine. It may be an above-ground forest and not a classic "dungeon", but the connotations are appropriate for the style of game I'd be building.

If I was making a game where characters have relatively little need to explore the environment, and are interacting in non-combat ways with the environment and other inhabitants of the world (AI or other players) then "dungeon" really implies the wrong sort of game.

Ironclaw Online, as an example, is a political renaissance-themed game, about joining guilds, building alliances, playing politics, and socially choosing sides. Although you can pull out a sword and attack someone, that's not the point of the game (And you'd get arrested unless you, y'know, played politics to avoid getting accused, or get let off the charge.) Although the game world is made out of a series of interconnected "rooms", there would be no need to walk into the cathedral unless your character wanted to pray or do some other religious action. There would be no need to explore unless you wanted to (because the cathedral is marked on the map), you could, theoretically, play the game fine without exploring more than five or so rooms. So when we talk about a "dungeon", we're giving the impression that the game is structured, vaguely, along D&D lines where you move from room to room, defeating opponents or other players. In games where the gameplay and philosophy is very dissimilar to that, "dungeon" is a misleading term.

I'm not arguing it should be changed, I'm happy enough with the meaningless term "MUD", as Ide points out. That's a "game type" name in its own right, these days, regardless of what it originally stood for. Similarly, I'm happy for MUX to refer to either rules-light, or socially-focussed MUDs (and for MUX to be a subset of MUD.) The MUD/MUX distinction solves the above problem.

Personally, I don't much care. I'll call my game either ICO, Ironclaw Online, "a MUD", "a MUX", or "a prose text roleplaying game" depending on who I'm talking to, and which term they are most likely to understand.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by silvarilon Dislike for D&D isn't the issue. Games that have no relation to D&D being linked to it is the issue.

The "Dungeon" in Multi-User Dungeon doesn't come from D&D, it comes from a single player game called Dungeon, because MUD was designed to be a similar style of game (except a Multi-User version).

I wonder if any Roguelike developers ever object to the name "Roguelike" on the basis that their game doesn't have rogues...

[scandum]

You can play Zork (originally Dungeon) here: http://thcnet.net/error/index.php

It's basically an adventure game that takes place in a virtual world described in text.

There is no combat to speak off, just a lot of puzzles.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by scandum You can play Zork (originally Dungeon) here: http://thcnet.net/error/index.php It's basically an adventure game that takes place in a virtual world described in text. There is no combat to speak off, just a lot of puzzles.

Wow, what a nastalgic ride into yesteryear. Reminds me of 8" floppy disks and crashing the school computer with a looping routine hack from zork.

[Darren Brimhall]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Wow, what a nastalgic ride into yesteryear. Reminds me of 8" floppy disks and crashing the school computer with a looping routine hack from zork.

You had to be careful with those 'B' Drives, especially if you accidentally tore the paper used on the 8-inch floppies...

Darrenn

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Darren Brimhall You had to be careful with those 'B' Drives, especially if you accidentally tore the paper used on the 8-inch floppies... Darrenn

No doubt, they would catch in the drive. I remember those disks being so sensitive.

[iovan]

What it originally meant certainly is important but Domain always appealed to me more. It fits pretty much any genre of MUD perfectly. Dungeon has always made me think of hack n slashy MUDs. You know like the old text dungeon crawlers...

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by iovan What it originally meant certainly is important but Domain always appealed to me more. It fits pretty much any genre of MUD perfectly. Dungeon has always made me think of hack n slashy MUDs. You know like the old text dungeon crawlers...

Yes, but that's the beauty of it. Nostalgia is great.

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Yes, but that's the beauty of it. Nostalgia is great.

Ah, I look back so fondly on the times of my life that were not consumed with nostalgia.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by chaosprime Ah, I look back so fondly on the times of my life that were not consumed with nostalgia.

Heh, you are getting old, man, old.

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Heh, you are getting old, man, old.

Actually, I just like saying twisty, self-referential ironic things and will leap at nearly any opportunity to do so.

[Justin534]

Multi User Drug

[Ghostcat]

Will never be better than 'Multi Undergraduate Destroyer'

[Justin534]

Ha! That one is perfect! I'll try to think of something better, but I think thats gotta be the best one.

[Ghostcat]

I take no credit
That one's been around for ages.

[Voidrider]

I recall the term "MUDD" being the predecessor of "MUD," referring to Multi User Dungeon Dwelling. It was just shortened after a period of time.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Voidrider I recall the term "MUDD" being the predecessor of "MUD," referring to Multi User Dungeon Dwelling. It was just shortened after a period of time.

No, "MUDD" was just a typo that someone else added later. To quote Richard Bartle:

"I promised to get in touch with Roy Trubshaw and nail this "how did the D in MUD come to be there?" question once and for all. I've now done so, and having exchanged a few emails and jogged each other's memories, here's the Authorised Version:

The D came first.

As Roy says, "We wanted to call it something and DUNGEN was the best adventure game that we had played up until then. (I was never really very keen on Haunt!)". The D has always stood for "Dungeon" and the fact that the acronym was also a word was a secondary (though not unimportant) consideration. He didn't start with an acronym and work backwards; he wanted to write something that was like a multi-user DUNGEoN.

It wasn't the case that Roy thought Adventure games would be called "Dungeons", because even then they were being referred to in the context of ADVENTure. He might have named it after that program if it had been better than DUNGEoN, but it wasn't.

The "MUDD" title in the listing I have from 1979 was because someone else (Keith Rautenbach, an undergraduate in the year above Roy) went through commenting the code and put in two Ds, probably because he thought it was a reference to Dungeons & Dragons. It never was, and the file that refers to "MUDD" is itself called MUD.MAC (.MAC for the MACRO-10 assembly language).

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by KaVir To quote Richard Bartle: "The D has always stood for "Dungeon"

I hope everyone (including me) remembers this and not confuse it with "domain". MUD: Multi User Dungeon. Though I still think MUD is an archaic term and somewhat meaningless to new gamers to the TEXT world. We only use partially or not at all in NWA when bringing new players into our world.

[iovan]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I hope everyone (including me) remembers this and not confuse it with "domain". MUD: Multi User Dungeon. Though I still think MUD is an archaic term and somewhat meaningless to new gamers to the TEXT world. We only use partially or not at all in NWA when bringing new players into our world.

Why is it exactly important to remember other than from a historical perspective? Multi User Domain or Multi User Dungeon are both terms that were passed around a lot when I first started. If we wan't to argue over which one is more correct historically Dungeon is obviously the right one. However that doesn't mean the decades of history for Domain should be forgotten. The use of words and acronyms change and are redefined by the population as a whole. Whether that's always a good thing is something else entirely, but I don't think calling MUD "Multi User Domain" or "Multi User Dungeon" makes much of a difference. I prefer the former but I have always accepted the latter.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by iovan Why is it exactly important to remember other than from a historical perspective? Multi User Domain or Multi User Dungeon are both terms that were passed around a lot when I first started.

From my perspective, Dungeon at least leans toward D&D and roots back to the start of Text games (all being dungeons and the first really being just DM's computer method of building a dungeon). Domain reminds me of an Internet Domain, a network, anything but gaming.

[iovan]

From my perspective, Domain is all encompassing and can fit a variety of themes while Dungeon sounds limited to hack'n'slash fantasy. Why should a large expansive non-fantasy MUD be labeled strictly as Multi User Dungeon? It just doesn't seem to apply to a broad enough theme range in my view. What will those who have never experienced MUDs think of the name in regards to the text game that uses the label? Their first impression will be pretty much as you describe for the word Dungeon in the context of games. That may be woefully inaccurate to the text game in question who identifies itself as a MUD but not a fantasy MUD with any roots in D&D.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by iovan Why should a large expansive non-fantasy MUD be labeled strictly as Multi User Dungeon?

You can advertise your game as anything you like - for example TinyMUD derivatives often advertise themselves as MU*s, MUSHes, MUCKs, etc, while the graphical MUDs usually call themselves MMORPGs or MMOs. Some MUDs avoid acronyms entirely, instead focusing on descriptive labels like "online roleplaying game" or "persistent virtual world". No reason why you shouldn't adjust your marketing strategy based on your target audience, and if you feel the term "MUD" gives the wrong impression, don't use it.

But the original MUD is named after the single-player adventure game Dungeon, and our genre is named after the original MUD, therefore we are running Multi-User Dungeons whether we like it or not.

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by KaVir But the original MUD is named after the single-player adventure game Dungeon, and our genre is named after the original MUD, therefore we are running Multi-User Dungeons whether we like it or not.

Well, that's the dispute (on Wikipedia, between me and Scandum) that this poll comes out of, and why it asks what it should stand for. I don't agree; I tend to think that if Joe Socializer opens a MUD, and he has heard of Multi-User Dungeon, Multi-User Dimension and Multi-User Domain as things MUD stands for, and he doesn't want to run a dungeon because those are icky, so he decides that MUD stands for Multi-User Domain for his MUD, he is, in some sense, correct. The thought there is that certainly Richard Bartle and Roy Trubshaw get to decide what MUD stands for with respect to their project, but once the term went out there and became a generic (because Bartle decided to let it be one, instead of helping his corporate overlords at CompuServe enforce a trademark on it), and the generic acronym achieved far more currency than any supposed expansion of it, their choice for their project does not control for all possible projects.

On Wikipedia there's necessarily a sourcing dimension to the argument, but that's the ethical dimension from my point of view, minus the usual fight I have with Scandum about his Dikucentrism and pooh-poohing anything he sees as Tiny-related, such as the Domain and Dimension expansions.

While we're here, I think a far better poll would have been a multiple-choice one that allowed you to select all expansions for MUD that you consider valid.

Edit: So I made one; let's see how this poll does. It also includes every bizarre expansion for MUD that I've ever heard of.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by chaosprime Well, that's the dispute (on Wikipedia, between me and Scandum) that this poll comes out of, and why it asks what it should stand for. I don't agree; I tend to think that if Joe Socializer opens a MUD, and he has heard of Multi-User Dungeon, Multi-User Dimension and Multi-User Domain as things MUD stands for, and he doesn't want to run a dungeon because those are icky, so he decides that MUD stands for Multi-User Domain for his MUD, he is, in some sense, correct.

Not historically, no. He can of course label his game in any way he wishes, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a MUD, and that MUD stands for "Multi-User Dungeon". Of course on his website there's nothing stopping him saying that in his game the "D" stands for "Domain", or "Dragonballs", or "Donut", or whatever else he likes - or even that it's really a "MU*" or "M*" or "MUSH" or "MOO" or "MMORPG", or "MMOBBQ", etc, etc. He can market his game as he wishes. But it's still a MUD, and the acronym has an established meaning.

Supposing that MUDs are just Joe's hobby - professionally, he's the founder of a company that manufactures palmtop computers. If he decides that the word "personal" is too icky-touchy-feely, and that for him "PC" stands for "palmtop computer", then he can certainly use that in his marketing. Or he can even make up a new name entirely if he wishes. But his product is a PC, and will still be categorised by others as a type of "personal computer".

[chaosprime]

Originally Posted by KaVir Not historically, no. He can of course label his game in any way he wishes, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a MUD, and that MUD stands for "Multi-User Dungeon". Of course on his website there's nothing stopping him saying that in his game the "D" stands for "Domain", or "Dragonballs", or "Donut", or whatever else he likes - or even that it's really a "MU*" or "M*" or "MUSH" or "MOO" or "MMORPG", or "MMOBBQ", etc, etc. He can market his game as he wishes. But it's still a MUD, and the acronym has an established meaning. Supposing that MUDs are just Joe's hobby - professionally, he's the founder of a company that manufactures palmtop computers. If he decides that the word "personal" is too icky-touchy-feely, and that for him "PC" stands for "palmtop computer", then he can certainly use that in his marketing. Or he can even make up a new name entirely if he wishes. But his product is a PC, and will still be categorised by others as a type of "personal computer".

The difference is that Multi-User Dimension and Multi-User Domain got widespread adoption in the community. A lot of books on MUDs name one or the other of them as the expansion of MUD, and when I got into mudding around '92 they were being thrown around a lot -- usually with an awareness that they were neologisms, but they were appealing neologisms that people were participating in because they worked for them, and were generally seen as part of the evolution of the hobby past its simplistic roots. (This enthusiasm wasn't in any way peculiar to Tinyfolk, for the record.) Someone calling their MUD a Multi-User Domicile is clearly a lone voice in the wilderness, but someone calling it a Multi-User Dimension very much is not.