[coldshadow]

Hi.
OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why?
What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme?
I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by coldshadow Hi. OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why? What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme? I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

From players that have been through NWA which is a serious roleplaying game they state that sometimes you just want to play and lay waste without having to worry about playing in a role, or staying in character. No rules man, no rules!

[Kleothera]

Well. Its what NW said plus some people strike friendships with people and instead want to just talk to friends and hang out with the gang while smashing stuff up and leveling a character up (majorly developing the character in that particular way) instead of getting entangled in long complicated storylines that involve regular time online and investment of mental energies into plot development. Something one can want to do especially at the end of a hard day at work when one may not really have the energy to plot how to lay seige to the enemy castle or overthrow the other faction through political intrigue. RP CAN become a very time taking activity and some people dont really have the time, or the residual mental capacity to invest that much of time. When they return the plot has moved on and they have lost track of what has been happening and its frustrating to keep losing out on RP action because of work/school/college. My point is- its either desire for just do one's own thing, or preferring to socialise OOC/explore the world or raise stats in small installments or thirdly sheer frustration with repeatedly loosing the picture on ongoing RP because of RL stuff and giving up on the whole thing.

[swampdog]

Originally Posted by coldshadow Hi. OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why? What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme? I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

Roleplayers are my main turn off. The kind of people that want to talk about the age of their leather flasks are the opposite of fun for me - I'd rather roleplay develop through the actions of my character (so it's very dependent on the MUD actually being able to allow me to do certain things). This is opposed to the "emote for 2 hours in a tavern" style of roleplayer that self described roleplayers seem to enjoy.

[scandum]

It's hard to RP outside your favorite genre. I'd really like to RP a smurf, smurfette to be precise, and roleplaying anything else just plain simply turns me off, big time.

[GhostInAProgram]

I think RPing is fun, but when it's enforced it kind of kills it for me. You want to have fun and not have to be in character all the time and I think most people think that.

Other than that most people just think pretending to be someone else is just weird. :/

[Molly]

I get turned off by the snotty attitude of certain roleplayers.

Once I played a RP enforced mud, where some players - mostly female - used to sit by the fountain in the main square, emoting endless rants about how the wind softly lifted the hem of their delicately flowered dress, or about rainbows forming in the water, when they dipped their dainty fingers into the fountain. The same players used to sneer at newcomers, for not reaching their self-appointed high standard of roleplay.

A standard that, at least to me, was narcissistic, longwinded, boring and added absolutely nothing to any plot. It was more about boosting their ego than interacting with other people.

Personally I enjoy moderate RP and admire players that manage to stay IC all the time, but I don't fancy forcing rules down people's throats. I also prefer a faster pace, where you don't have to wait out 6-line emotes from others, especially if they are slow typers.

Give me snappy one-liners at any time!

[Oliver]

What turns me off is MUSH players, as a general rule. There's a concept among the MUSH community that ability at roleplay is how much you can overinflate your prose.

That turns me away from those sorts of RP communities. I find that most any MUD with enforced rp is okay, as long as it's not everyone constantly teapartying.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Oliver What turns me off is MUSH players, as a general rule. There's a concept among the MUSH community that ability at roleplay is how much you can overinflate your prose.

Heh, that's funny. Many people complain about this, but it is a style of MUSH and some roleplayers to do long poses and with some even to the detriment of the roleplay.

This works in some environments with a small player base and patient players. In NWA it only works in small groups or settings. Most of these types of players have come to learn that with numerous players and alot of things going on, you have to turn to quality rather than quantity in terms of prose and pose. Good roleplaying doesn't necessarily equate to lengthy roleplaying.

[Darren Brimhall]

Judging from their comments, Molly and GhostInAProgram have probibly visited Castle Marrach.
I'm not kidding, RP there is strictly enforced. Way too strict, because if you make a mistake, the simplist mistake with your character, you are made to play it--sorry, no excuses allowed. A rule that is strictly enforced by favored players towards the Staff they keep in power, and too bad if you're not in the loop.

I'm very glad I left that place.

Honestly, I don't mind RP if there is a proper logic to it that helps to advance both story and character, and the Players all respect the fact that their fellows will make mistakes. The whole point is, games should be both fun and relaxing. Who wants to play a game where any mistake can cost everything your character has worked for, or you're forced to pla with your arm twisted behind your back.

Certainly not me.


Darren Brimhall

[Tristan1992]

Originally Posted by coldshadow Hi. OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why? What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme? I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

Not everyone is cut out to be an actor. That's what RP is kind of. Acting a role. Many people just wanna have fun to paraphrase the Lauper. You might be aware that mudders have been pigeonholed into these 4 types (and in my experience is pretty spot on...) Explorers (who don't want to play a role they just want to poke their noses into everything and find out the truth) Achievers (who just want to be BMOC Socializers (who wanna shoot the breeze with others, not pretend to be something else) and Killers (who are just being their psychopathic selves <grin>). Role Players are perhaps a 5th element here. Or a subtype of the Socializers if I were to hazard a guess.

[Darren Brimhall]

In Second Life, a Builder, TedTheRushFan, had this bit of insight which he shared...


Games should be played for Fun, not Ego...


That right there practictly says it all on this matter. Too many egoists would spoil any game, and turn people off from RPing.


Darren Brimhall

[GhostInAProgram]

I play for both ego and fun.

[Darren Brimhall]

Originally Posted by GhostInAProgram I play for both ego and fun.

That'll lead to problems in my opinion. Especially if what you wanted to do with your character doesn't come to pass, or other players (and the Staffers they support) frustrate youat every turn.

That's when Ego kicks in, and the trouble starts.


Darren Brimhall

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Tristan1992 Role Players are perhaps a 5th element here.

If only that were true. Come to us Milla.

[Darren Brimhall]

Originally Posted by Tristan1992 Not everyone is cut out to be an actor. That's what RP is kind of. Acting a role. Many people just wanna have fun to paraphrase the Lauper. You might be aware that mudders have been pigeonholed into these 4 types (and in my experience is pretty spot on...) Explorers (who don't want to play a role they just want to poke their noses into everything and find out the truth) Achievers (who just want to be BMOC Socializers (who wanna shoot the breeze with others, not pretend to be something else) and Killers (who are just being their psychopathic selves <grin>). Role Players are perhaps a 5th element here. Or a subtype of the Socializers if I were to hazard a guess.

Acting has nothing to do with it. Its Imagination.

All we are are kids playing in the sandbox with our action-figures and barbie dolls, busily creating a world of make-believe that we act out in through our toys.

Enviorment is another factor, and why I stepped away from Marrach; it was too hostile and dominated overwhelmingly by power-players and the corrupt Staff they supported. There would have been no way for any sort of fair RP occuring with my characters, and I, like Keir's player, wasn't about to grovel and brown-nose my way back into their graces or for their pleasure...Especially when no one was ever going to allow my characters the chance to rise up again no matter what they did.

So, Imagination and Enviroment would be the two factors I'd look at with any MUD before 'jumping in'. Dose one allow the other to thrive?

Darren Brimhall

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Darren Brimhall Acting has nothing to do with it. Its Imagination.

For Tristan it has everything to do with it and acting is indeed a huge part of roleplay and some people do not wish to do that. For you, yes, it may be the environment but for many players it has to do with whether or not they wish to play a role or not.

[Milawe]

I find this question really entertaining since we run an RP enforced game and an IC enforced game, but I know EXACTLY what the OP is saying because I get the same feeling whenever I play an MMO.

At the very heart of it all, MUDs are games, and people play games in very different ways. When I play a MUD, I prefer to find an RP setting because I enjoy writing, describing my character, and playing something very different than I am in real life.

In an MMO, however, I play on RP servers only if they offer serious PvP, and that's only because I find that PvP can be very fulfilling (and often easier) on RP servers. Also, I can't help but giggle to myself a little bit when I'm killing someone while they're delayed by their RP scripts. I find interacting with other players on MMOs extremely clunky, slow, and in general, not conducive to RP at all... especially with everyone going to Vent. When I'm typing out what my character is saying, it allows me a separation and distance that lets me play my character without being self-concious. There's absolutely no way for me to do that via voice. You'll very rarely catch me RPing on an MMO because I feel like it's a waste of time and absolutely NOT FUN. I like the graphics for dimensional PvP and positionals.

It's not very hard then for me to translate how I feel to how some people might feel on a MUD. People often feel that their avatar is an extension of themselves. Some people have no desire to RP and prefer to let the game mechanics and their stats build their character. Others are intimidated by RP and don't want to be forced to do it all the time. Others just don't want to work that hard when playing a game. Still others just think it's plain stupid. And ultimately, people aren't born equal. Some people have a gift for RPing and others have it in varying degrees. Like anything else, people who aren't comfortable or good at it, may not enjoy it as much as the people who like it no matter how good they are at it.

I do think that RP enforced games that are unforgiving of basic mistakes and don't make allowances for new players drive a lot of people to swear off RP enforced games forever.

[Elvarlyn]

I think there's roleplay and roleplay.

You don't have to be hugely imaginative or have a post graduate degree in theater studies in order to maintain the basic standards of roleplay an IRE game or Lithmeria require. It's really not that difficult to NOT talk about pizza or world of warcraft on a public channel in a game set in a fantasy setting. I think the word 'roleplay' tends to conjure up images of page long emotes about the dew on a rose, when in actuality it can be as simple as putting yourself into the shoes of your character.

I'm a pretty terrible roleplayer. I never create characters with entirely different personalities. All my characters are simply reflections of me, placed in a situation where I can kill people at will and run a city or something. I just act naturally.

- Elvy

[Sasca]

For me, Roleplaying is a combination of imagination and acting. you imagine yourself to be a character, and you act the way that you think that character would. I agree with Elvarlyn, too- some of my characters are very much like me, with the exception of them having the abilities that I don't have. RP is quite a personal thing, really, isn't it? Some people revel in playing what they feel is a direct opposite of themselves- perhaps they play an all-out evil SOB or someone who's very akin to nature- but they still incorporate themselves into a character. People who want to play a MUD and just want to try life out as an Elven scout or a Demonic priest, well, they wouldn't have much fun on an enforced RP game. I personally don't get involved with MUSHes because I am turned off by the whole 'six-line emote' reputation that MUSHes have. I don't want to wait for a well-thought-out constructed response. I want the real-time action and the 'witty one-liners'. RP's often about how quick you are on your feet, and how well you adapt to playing someone who is not you. You get to think like your character, and react as your character would; for me, that's what makes it so awesome.

I'm amused by the idea that some people think 'people pretending to be someone else is weird'. How about plays, or films, or most TV shows? Watching someone pretending to be someone else seems perfectly acceptable- and yet the idea of actually taking part in a plot and making your way with a character seems 'weird' to some. I suppose what puts people off RP is what perhaps made them hesitant to join in with RP in the first place- it's wild, it's unpredictable, and if it's done well, it can be emotionally involving. I agree that having to be logged in to a certain place at a certain time (I know all about awkward times, as I'm a good five hours forward in timezones than most MUDders) is a real pain in the arse, but I've played a lot of MUDs and good RP and fun wasn't all about being at a town meeting or whatever. The most fun I've had has been small meetings, impromptu gatherings and chance meetings in a tavern somewhere.

Anyway, Roleplaying will always be down to what an individual enjoys. It's imagination, it's acting, it's running about as an elf/demon/lord/cleric whatever. I suppose it boils down to playing a game where you're not just yourself; and for a lot of people, that can be a welcomed break.

[Sombalance]

I really enjoy a good RP game, but I find that I can play on very few of the RP games that are available.

For one thing, I hate pose order and for another I hate long winded speeches or even short speeches if it takes too long to develop. I like RP be to fast paced and exciting. When people emote, pose, say .... whatever in a sentence or two they can normally keep the pace moving, but as soon as someone starts to write a paragraph each time they need to do something, the pacing just dies.

I also dislike having to emote every time I walk through a room another character is in. Sometimes I just want to go from point A to point B. And what's worse is when I'm expected to wait for a response and it turns out the person I'm waiting for went out for a pizza and just decided to stay logged into the game.

I really dislike having to submit a character concept before I can get into a game. I just stopped even trying to play those types of game. I have never found one that was worth the time and if you are going to make me wait a week before I can even log in, well, it better be a friggin' awesome game and I just haven't seen it.

I like OOC in a game. Its a game after all and some times I like to BS. I prefer OOC to be on its own channel that can be turned on/off at will and I don't spend time on games that try to block OOC.

I also like numbers. I'm offended by roleplayers who think that if I know what my AC value is or how much damage my sword does or how many hitpoints I have it makes me unable to roleplay. If anything I believe the opposite is true. Numbers allow a player to quantify the effect of a situation or object and then it's up to the player to convey that information in IC terms. Without numbers its just vague guesswork based on vague descriptions.

And lastly, I hate it when players tell you stuff about their character and then complain when you mention it in game, because they told you OOC. I'm all for keeping IC and OOC separate, but if you shot your mouth off about your plains to assassinate someone in game don't cry when your target hears about it and starts to prepare for the attack. This leads to the dreaded "let's null that RP" What the heck is that - a do over? If you are a plotter in game, keep your secrets to yourself.

Sombalance

[Newworlds]

Loved your whole rant Sombalance, but I just have to highlight some of the especially good parts.

Originally Posted by Sombalance I also dislike having to emote every time I walk through a room another character is in. Sometimes I just want to go from point A to point B. And what's worse is when I'm expected to wait for a response and it turns out the person I'm waiting for went out for a pizza and just decided to stay logged into the game.

No kidding, this is classic and happens more often than it should.

Originally Posted by Sombalance I really dislike having to submit a character concept before I can get into a game. I just stopped even trying to play those types of game. I have never found one that was worth the time and if you are going to make me wait a week before I can even log in, well, it better be a friggin' awesome game and I just haven't seen it.

Bahahahaha. Amen. I never understood having to write a huge concept when you don't have much of a clue about the current politics, story, flow, geography, or balance of the game. I mean seriously, are you kidding, making someone read your 100 page manual to play your game. Pfft. Perhaps 20 or 30 years ago.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Sombalance And lastly, I hate it when players tell you stuff about their character and then complain when you mention it in game, because they told you OOC. I'm all for keeping IC and OOC separate, but if you shot your mouth off about your plains to assassinate someone in game don't cry when your target hears about it and starts to prepare for the attack. This leads to the dreaded "let's null that RP" What the heck is that - a do over? If you are a plotter in game, keep your secrets to yourself.

I just had to quote this because it's one of my pet peeves as well. Don't tell me anything about your character that you don't want me to know IC or OOC. It's even worse when a player expects the administration to do something about this because then I wasn't even privy to the original conversation. What's worse is when BOTH players expect admins to do something about this, putting us in an impossible situation.

Anyway, I definitely agree that if a character is supposed to be some sort of super secret sneaky character, don't blab stuff OOC.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by coldshadow OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why?

Not everyone enjoys role-play for a variety of reasons. Some simply aren't good at it. Some don't have the patience for it. Some are really only interested in more arcade-like functions. It really comes down to the personality of the player.

What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme?

Many don't want to develop a character because they just want arcade-gameplay. Hack'n'slash, score points and "win". Some are lazy and don't want to take time to do anything; they want instant gratification. Some are simply incapable of developing a character be it on account of a lack of creativity, lack of an adequate attention span or laziness about going through any sort of creation process. Again, it boils down to the personality of the player.

I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

Different strokes for different folks. My issue is with those who don't want a particular type of game but then go and play it and try to change it into something different. For example, players who don't want to develop three-dimensional characters and are really only interested in combat and PKing playing RPIs. If you don't want to role-play, go play a non-RP MUD. Don't complain when your actions get squashed by staff because you're just H&Sing your way through the gameworld.

Games that fail to enforce their own style in order to attract or satisfy new players typically lose the players that made them popular in the first place. One need only look at the RPIs who've lost so many of their veteran players by dumbing down their role-play standards and enforcement. The best RPI today doesn't hold a candle to the worst RPI of ten years ago. Looking at all of the great players who've walked away from RPIs because of this drop in quality can be painful, especially when compared to what passes for players and staff nowadays on some RPIs.

Long story short: Players, play the games that suit your personality and gameplay style. If it's not a match, don't try to change the game, go look for another. With hundreds of games out there, you're likely to find one that does match what you're looking for. Staff, remember that a larger playerbase isn't everything especially if you end up sacrificing what made your game worth playing in the first place to achieve it.

Take care,

Jason aka Falco

[Darren Brimhall]

Originally Posted by Newworlds For Tristan it has everything to do with it and acting is indeed a huge part of roleplay and some people do not wish to do that. For you, yes, it may be the environment but for many players it has to do with whether or not they wish to play a role or not.

Many players base their decision to play on the playable enviroment of the Game, and from there weither or not its worth their while in the long run to play.

With Marrach, which is where Tristan's from, you faced the problem, as all newbies do, of dealing with people who were either simply too gosh-darned friendly or simply insulted by the fact that you were there next to them. We lost a lot of would-have-been players because of those exstreams because they were simply put off by the behavior of the established players. Then we had issues of being met with resistance from Staff on plots, overall sour attitudes and the closed minds of the players, and finally the egotistial 'power players' who'd insist upon 'keeping Ic Ic, and OOC OOC' to the point they wouldn't listen to why you couldn't properly RP due to Real Life issues.

Honestly, that closed mindedness killed it for me after almost ten years. Compaired to the vibrancy found in Ironclaw, Marrach is stagnate. And I can say that because I have friends that are still there. Nothings changed, nothing moves--and the newbies spot this with in two weeks of their arrival and go elsewhere.

So, Enviroment is the best way, in my opinion, to judge not only if its acceptable to the Player's style of RP but also the Game's overall health in the long run.


Darren Brimhall

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by prof1515 Many don't want to develop a character because they just want arcade-gameplay. Hack'n'slash, score points and "win". Some are lazy and don't want to take time to do anything; they want instant gratification. Some are simply incapable of developing a character be it on account of a lack of creativity, lack of an adequate attention span or laziness about going through any sort of creation process.

This is are fairly negative. While much of it may be true, there are players that do want to develop a character, aren't lazy, are capable with descriptions and creativity, have attention span, but just have a different way of roleplaying than ten paragraph emotes or other roleplay style (name any style). I'm not talking about ooc rules I'm talking about roleplay style and game setup.

Originally Posted by prof1515 My issue is with those who don't want a particular type of game but then go and play it and try to change it into something different.

In reference to what I said above. This is golden. If you don't like the style of a game (be it a MUSH or other style of play) do not try to change it as a newbie joining the game. The game is what it is because of its rules and style.

Originally Posted by prof1515 One need only look at the RPIs who've lost so many of their veteran players by dumbing down their role-play standards and enforcement. The best RPI today doesn't hold a candle to the worst RPI of ten years ago. Looking at all of the great players who've walked away from RPIs because of this drop in quality can be painful, especially when compared to what passes for players and staff nowadays on some RPIs.

This may cause a derail of the topic so I'm putting in a new thread perhaps this can be answered better here:

Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

[shadowfyr]

Yeah. As another in the Second Life universe of things, one guy I know pretty much quit do to, "too much drama". This is a "post apocalyptic" "dark RP" series of sims, so you get a lot of people doing pretty nasty things to other people, a lot of time spent trying to dance around the issue that X moron doesn't want his stuff touched, even if there is an RP reason for it, others not wanting to RP with Y or Z, because of some random thing that happened a year ago, etc. Basically, instead of playing a part, people invest themselves in the role so much that they get offended when the universe doesn't play nice with them, or they insist on dragging stuff up from way back, when it wasn't even the same character, or role, or situation. And, that is without even mentioning the fools that can't keep real life out of it.

We even have one bunch that jumped ship (you will never see this with a mud, at least not in the same server.. lol) to change their two sims into a different combat system, because they where *convinced* that all the changes being made to streamline the system, fix bugs, adjust race strengths against each other, and prevent people making stupidly over powered weapons, was all about "making money". Same bunch spends a lot of time now complaining how there are not enough people visiting (including me, since, under a new system, I can't show up as my "future" self, like I could when it was still in the same system).

You get ego, politics, and just general dumb, and if you end up the target of all three, or even a lot of one...

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Darren Brimhall Honestly, that closed mindedness killed it for me after almost ten years. Compaired to the vibrancy found in Ironclaw, Marrach is stagnate. And I can say that because I have friends that are still there. Nothings changed, nothing moves--and the newbies spot this with in two weeks of their arrival and go elsewhere.

Just out of personal curiosity, how old is Ironclaw as opposed to Marrach?

[iKallisti]

Originally Posted by prof1515 Many don't want to develop a character because they just want arcade-gameplay. Hack'n'slash, score points and "win". Some are lazy and don't want to take time to do anything; they want instant gratification. Some are simply incapable of developing a character be it on account of a lack of creativity, lack of an adequate attention span or laziness about going through any sort of creation process. Again, it boils down to the personality of the player.

I play on a roleplaying enforced game 99% of the time, but every so often I get the urge to go find some of the more hack n' slash titles out there. When I do this I don't want to have to bother with any sort of RP because I'm already putting enough thought and effort into my character on the game that I usually play. That may sound lazy I suppose but when I do that I'm putting less time into the character and putting a LOT more time into optimizing that character so that I can get a feel for the game in however brief a time I play. I find that doing this is great for relieving some of the stress I attract by playing a "not very nice" character on my home MUD. I also find that it makes me better a better player by reminding me how to look at different systems and find secret.

More on topic though I think that in a lot of cases people get driven away from RP games by the seemingly impenetrable wall of rules if you're not familiar with the game. On the game that I play we give out a couple of help files when a new player starts, once they get out of creation they're presented with a few more and information on how to access the whole list of them, we go on from their by trying to get them involved with RP in the game so they can learn as they go but I think some people get overwhelmed by the rules and the feeling of trying to learn the "culture" of the game. This I would think is even more of a problem with games that have a lot of their world lore and information available on the website. For example, as much as I've always wanted to try my hand at Armageddon I've never been able to get past the very beginnings of making my character because I get overwhelmed trying to read the history of the region, and of the race, and everything else.

[Ghostcat]

I do this too. Sometimes the heavy RP gets fatiguing.
Then I play a hack-n-slash for a bit to relax.