Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

As a player, I make a huge distinction between a MUD that sells merchandise (to whit: I don't care about it) compared to one that is pay-for-perks. I want to know what I'm getting into before I join the game.

I've actually changed my opinion (shock, horror!) towards pay-for-perks. I don't mind them now, as long as I can get whatever they get with a reasonable amount of time invested. None of this "Buy the Sword of Leet for £20 or spend 1 million hours playing to get it".

So before people claim it's a bunch of admins wanting the change, I support it based on my experiences searching for MUDs as a player. I don't currently run any game, admin on any game, or play any game. I also stand by my previous assertion that just because someone is an admin does not mean that they stop being a player. Even the ones (especially the ones?) who don't play their own game often have at least one other game they play for when they need to unwind.

Questioning the motives behind the change doesn't mean it's a pointless change. If you really, really believe that Threshold as a game would be disadvantaged by this, I'd like you to explain why. As someone who's never played it I don't see why the 4/5 option system would be so detrimental to you. Feel free to PM me instead of reply here if you'd feel more comfortable.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

In short, the disadvantage would be categorizing what Free means with this 5 box system. Forcing certain games not to appear on a search engine, because of a category that is a misnomer. I think it is important to know that this 5 box system is set up to hurt Commercial MUDs by lowering searches that point to their games. While that in and of itself shouldn't stop a change in searches, I wonder what is next after this gets put into place. I wonder why so many didn't like my option of 2 boxes with multiple sub boxes if you checked box 1, basically defining out how the game utilizes payment MUCH more robustly than a simple 5 box check? I can answer this for you. It would be a greater disadvantage to non-commercial muds.

Its boiled down to who gets the advantage, not what players want. I saw this when the 2 box system with multiple options wasn't even listed on the poll or even mentioned.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You still haven't explained why Threshold, or any other commercial game, would suddenly lose out. I just went and looked at the current search option and it either seems to be "pay-to-play" or "anything else", which as a player isn't sufficient for me. Say if I want to be able to search for pay-for-perks alone, I have to wade through all the other types of MUD that aren't pay-to-play. You claim commercial games would lose out as if every person searching for a MUD is automatically not going to look for a commercial one, which is a fallacy. People interested in pay-for-perks are going to pick the options that bring them up. People not interested in them were never going to magically start playing them just because they appeared in the current limited search unless you've been mis-labelling your game, which is your problem and not a fault with the system. By the way, this is the hypothetcial "you" again :)

As for the fact your system didn't appear on the poll, that's down to the fact it seemed to get no merit here from anyone. The 2 box and 4/5 box systems were the ones being mainly debated, so I added them. I told you to feel free to vote "Other" and put a link to your system in the thread but since you've failed to do so I can only assume that it doesn't really bother you. If you had done that and enough people piped up to say they liked that system, I would have created a different poll (since I can't seem to edit one).

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Is the "codebase" option only there to hurt muds based on stock codebases?

Is the "average players online" option only there to hurt muds that have no players?

Is the "world originality" option only there to hurt muds with stock areas?

Is the "quests" option only there to hurt muds that don't have any sort of quest system?

Is the "pay to play" option only there to hurt subscription-based commercial muds?

The answer to the above is "no", and this new proposal is no different; it's there to provide more information to players, and to allow those with specific criteria to narrow down their shortlist.

I've heard numerous proponents of the pay-for-perks model arguing the reasons why they prefer it (not enough free time to compete, etc), just as I've seen numerous players write posts (usually on TMC) asking specifically for mud suggestions which don't have any sort of perks. This implies to me that the new search option will benefit both types of player - those who want non-payment muds, and those who want pay-for-perks.

The fact that this is an advanced search option means that people are only likely to use it if they have a strong preference about the payment model - in which case they're unlikely to play a game that doesn't meet their preference anyway, unless it advertises itself so misleadingly that the player simply doesn't find out until much later. All you're doing is wasting their time by making them manually check each game first.

I've already explained twice before in detail (and others have done the same), but in short: Because your proposal was extremely ambigious, easily gamed, and too confusing.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Okay, to pull the 2 box, multi option off the shelf so no one has to find it, here it is. Remember, these sub options were multi choice and only examples. Several more could apply. I just find this system more explanatory than the simple 4 box set. We are talking about helping players find what they want, well, wouldn't this assist them more?
---------------------------------------------------



[ ] This mud has some donation, registration, and/or payment features.

(Sub options, click as many as apply)

{ } Paying registration is required to play.

{ } Paying registration is required at certain levels.

{ } Donations are required at certain levels.

{ } Donations are encouraged but not required.

{ } Rewards are part of donations/registrations/payments.

{ } Rewards are not part of donations/registrations/payments.

{ } All rewards in this game can be received without paying registration.

{ } All rewards in this game can be received without donations.

(There could be several more option boxes but I think you get the picture)

[ ] This mud does not accept money (donations/registrations/credits) in any form.

---------------------------------------------------

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

No, it wouldn't.

Hey, you did ask.

At some point, too many categories is confusing, harder to categorize accurately, and/or less helpful. The 4-5 category system is a better compromise between useful detail and brevity.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It seems to me that you are trying to argue that you indeed agree with most people that more information is valuable for players searching MUDs. This is how I interpret your insistence on the multiple sub-options system. Now, I do believe that you can potentially group several of those you list together, say,


Since it seems you no longer have a problem with requiring a donation for a service as you mentioned earlier, you can safely go with

[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.

Since we can now group together payment and donations (as your example allows for donations to be required as well),

[ ] Payment and/or donations required to access some content.

would group the 2nd and 3rd options, as you no longer care for non ultra specific information (you complained about the meaning of content before, but you now use words like "certain", "levels", "rewards" without a formal definition so I guess you are cool with the use of "content".)
For the 5th, 7th and 8th you can use,

[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game.

though it conveys a different type of information, in your wording it lets people know what they would get for their money without understanding (if they have not checked into the game beforehand), in the presented form it lets the searcher know whether the game is designed so that money will have a measurable impact in the game experience. (I am not entirely happy with the "has results in-game" bit though, "provides with bonuses during game" or something that cannot be as easil(L)y marred by nit-pickers would be prefered)
As for your 6th option, the obvious replacement is

[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game.

Previously your argument against this presentation was that anybody giving money would immediately compromise the integrity (if they even had some to begin with) of the MUDs staff regarding their game, which would inherently lead to them getting disproportionate advantage over everybody else who did not donate. Yet you are o-key with adding an option that says "Rewards are not part of ..." which leads me to think that you understood your previous complain was somewhat groundless.
And lastly

[ ] Neither payment nor donations accepted.

So it seems to me that both things convey a very similar message, both move in the direction you and others seem to want for the searching options (that is, towards giving players more information -see quote above-), and thus would be preferable to the 2 box model where nothing changes.

Now, the two main arguments I read over and over against the MUDs that would potentially click the "no results in-game" option is that people cannot be trusted to follow their own policies, be it on well established games or new ones and that a mouse pad or coffee mug WILL impact your game experience no matter how little coffee you drink or how good a mouse pad you had before. Oh, the_logos argument has been addressed in a prior post so I will not repeat what the_Disciple said at 6:20 am today. (no idea how to quote multiple posts)

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

The motive always matters.

And considering this whole movement started by and has been driven by admins, not players, the usefulness of the information is extremely questionable.

The most useful information for players is simply whether or not money changes hands. The rest is just obfuscation created by admins who want to create a system that serves their own personal interests at the expense of others.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Considering this is a site mainly for admins, by admins, is it really that surprising? It's like complaining that laws are all created by politicians...

You keep saying that as if you have some insight into the minds of players. As I have said, I am only a player, have never run a MUD, and have never been a staffer, even. And yet, I have an opinion 180 degrees opposite from yours. I can't say that I definitely speak for most players, yet you, an admin, can?

Can you cite any other "players-only" who have posted here that support your position?

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

I continue to find it fascinating that commercial MUD operators get to say this sort of thing as often as they like, but if anyone impugns their motives, the silencing of the offending voice is swift and sure.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

You have still yet to show how the 4/5 option promotes some games at the expense of others. As I stated earlier, looking at it from a player perspective (which I am) it seems to help me find MUDs that accept no form of payment as well as MUDs that have pay-for-perks if I want them, without having to trawl through all the other sorts of options I don't want.

I would also be careful about flinging around accusations attacking groups rather than individuals. Commercial MUD owners are quick enough to decry non-commercial owners when they make blanket statements about commercial games (argh too many uses of the word commercial...) so I suggest you put some consideration into any blanket statements you plan to make.

I support the 4/5 option system and am not a game admin, so am I trying to serve my own personal interests at the expense of others? No. I AM trying to serve my own personal interest in having a system that's more useful to me, but I fail to see how that is at the expense of other people.

As I've said, please point out to me why the proposed system disadvantages anyone except MUD owners who are gaining players through false or misleading information in their listings, something I'm sure we all agree is unacceptable.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

If you re-read the thread you'll see plenty of threads questioning the motives of both sides of the debate that survived this apparent rampant silencing.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

To the people using or not using the search it doesn't. A better search is good for everyone. Payment information isn't the beginning and end of what makes a better search; it's just a piece.

But it IS a piece.

Respectfully, that's a load of crap that you've decided and perhaps even convinced yourself is true, but isn't backed up by anything other than your saying so. The case for the opposite in this thread isn't overwhelming, but it's greater than nothing.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Let's take three MUDs.

MUD A is DragonRealms Premium. It has a mandatory fee of $74.95/month/player, plus additional fees for special events and other perks.
MUD B is Armageddon. They have no fees or perks for sale, but they accept donations to defray the costs of running their game (roughly $1060/yr total, per their website). They explicitly state "Under no circumstances will we sell ... special favors, because of a donation." as policy.
MUD C is New Worlds. They do not accept donations.

Let's say you're a player looking for a game. You're telling me that you will see more in common between A and B, than between B and C? (This is a yes-or-no question.)

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Snort! I am most definitely *not* an admin and I damn well do consider there to be a huge difference between games where you can donate/buy stuff like T-shirts, and those that *require* money to be spent for perks or any other sort of advancement, so they idea that this is purely motivated by admins, and that only they care about it is bull.

Seriously though, I can't fracking believe this argument is still going on. If its that big of a deal, just add a disclaimer some place to the effect, "While TMC will, with sufficient proof, make adjustments to the category one is in, these categories are chosen at the option of the individual mud, so may not be 100% accurate in all cases. Some overlap is possible, and perhaps unavoidable, so long as it does not intentionally undermine the spirit of the system."

Or would even that be insufficient to get you people to agree on anything? Its like trying to get radical environmentalists and Halliburton to agree on where we should drill oil wells.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

I am a non-admin. The difference between a MUD that accepts donations but gives no reward for them, and a MUD that doesn't accept donations, is, to me, negligible. The difference between a MUD that accepts donations without rewarding them, and a MUD where the vast majority of the game content is inaccessible without substantial payments, is vast.

Every other other non-admin in this thread who has expressed an opinion on this point seems to agree.

Your continual asertion that players are more interested in whether or not money changes hands in any form than they are in what rewards are given when money does change hands is simply not borne out by the observable evidence.

On top of that, even if you were correct in saying that the majority of players only cares about "whether money changes hands" the four-option system makes this unambiguously clear. So, even if you're right, it's still not a valid argument against the four-option system!

Why, therefore, do you keep endlessly repeating it as if it were?

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

With all due respect, what made you an expert on what players regard as useful information?

I am a non-admin, and I happen to disagree with you. So do several other non-admin, it seems.

As a player only two things are really of interest to me:
1. Do I need to pay to access, or to advance in the game?
2. If payment is optional, does the money that other players pay give them substantial advantages over my own char if I choose not to pay?

I am a very competitive player. I couldn't care less if the admin are selling t-shirts from their website to pay for the server, as long as it doesn't affect my game.
I just don't like the idea of some mediocre twerp kicking my behind in a PvP fight, because he paid 999 $ for a load of practice sessions, or the Sword of Uber Coolness.

Others, I understand, would like exactly that, because they don't have enough free time or enough player skills or whatever to be competitive otherwise. That's fine by me. To each their choice.

The four-box option sums this up very adequately. We can all pick the type of game we like to play from it.

It's hard to understand why this "discussion" is still going on. There have been no new arguments for the last 10 pages or so, just the same old ones being rehashed and refuted repeatedly.
I's getting rather boring.

The only thing that still interests me is what movie Threshold is referring to, and what thas has to do with things.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

"I'm a player, not an admin."
- It doesn't matter. It's not a survey and if it were, it'd be a completely useless one. Not being an admin doesn't suddenly suggest a lack of vested interest or bias. And yes, I'm a player too.

"You're only saying this because you stand to gain from it."
- It doesn't matter. Same goes for just about anyone posting here. The motivation is irrelevant, just discuss the validity of the posts' content.

I agree with you. The thing is, an alternative example going as:
MUD A offers restrings for 2$ a piece.
MUD B gives donators a personal profile on its website.
MUD C has a subscription fee.

Under the 4/5 system, MUDs A and C would be in one category, while B would be in another.
The system does as much to misrepresent as does the 2 option system, the difference is it misrepresents a different subset of MUDs, hence, I believe, the reluctance of numerous MUD admin to have it implemented.

If a system that properly categorizes these MUDs is suggested and agreed on, I believe there can be a compromise made. Until both sides agree on it, any implementation is going to be something inflicted from one side on the other.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Actually, no. MUD A would pick either "Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game" or in the 5 option system possibly "Payment and/or donations required to access some content" if there's no way of getting restrings without paying. MUD C would choose "Payment and/or donations required to play". They would be in different categories, so your example is unfortunately flawed :)

To clarify:

MUD A - "Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game" AND/OR "Payment and/or donations required to access some content."

MUD B - "Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game."

MUD C - "Payment and/or donations required to play."

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

As someone who is looking for a MUD to call home, and has tried everything in the top 20 this post, as large as it is took my interest.

Sounds fair. I just tried a MUD that had become 'Free to play' with 'Pay for Perks' and after investing some 6-10 hours in the game (it has a lengthy tutorial period) I got into a proper class.. and then I realised that the gane was FAR from free. Certain classes were only available to those who had paid in excess of $100 which was the first shock. Also the basic skills of the class has many that were locked down, and only available to people who had registered (i.e paid) at least $50 as well as the perks.

Now do not get me wrong, I have NO problems paying for a mud I like, and have invested $1000's in the last ten (12?) years of playing.. but to me FREE TO PLAY means that all skills, abilities and areas that comprise the game world are available to without paying a dime. To me, listing a skill, and then when you get to that level to use it, and then being told you have to pay to use it.. thats not a PERK its a con and a blatent misuse of the word Free. Drag the player in, get them to invest some serious time, and then POW start showing them just how much is buried under RL costs (of course, there is some smooth talking, about how making people pay for the skill stops its abuse, and only players with a vested interest in the game will refrain from abuse.. rubbish)

I like to think in terms of software, we have Freeware, Shareware, Crippleware and demo's. As far as I am concerned this MUD (no names, this is not a personal attack on any one mud, I know there are others) was a demo. NOT free. You want the full product, pay.

The ABC method mentioned is quite good, though I prefer

1) FREE MUD - everything is available without a dime being paid) donations having no REAL game affect, or maybe give you something you can get in game with enough work.. such as IN Game money, experience, access to rare items without the grind, quicker learning
2) FREE with Perks - everything is available to the player, but there are some perks such as houses, political power, positions of power, extra channels to chat on and so on. In other words things that can affect the GAMING world, but not the player character in terms of individual in-game power (extra skills, spells and so on).
3) NOT FREE I.e Classes, Races, Class or Race Skills, Items that are only available with REAL money. These are not perks, but parts of the game that are locked down.. in otherwords.. Shareware or Demo's.

To me, the current MUD that I am trying, is a FREE MUD, you can donate, and these donations help you learn skills slightly faster for a short period of time. There are no other bonuses to be gained with RL cash.

I think the help file in Evarayan Sums up the definition of FREE (help donations) quite nicely

OK, done now, sorry for the rant as my first post

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Actually, the ABC thing I did was just in reply to the post above my own as an example of how the three hypothetical MUDs he listed would be categorised by the suggested 5-Option system. You can see the full range of options in the

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Applogies, I did not mean to criticise, I have skimmed over a few thread.. my mistake.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Because muds that sell merchandise can pick any category that suits their personal needs or preferences at that time.

It also allows them to claim there is no effect in game, when that is a completely bogus claim.

The problem is that by creating explicit search options, it creates an impression of validity that is simply not legitimate.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

I dunno. Maybe 11 years of professional work experience in the industry?

The success of my company is a direct reflection of my ability to understand what players regard as interesting and useful.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

I would expect a MUD that sold merchandise to pick the "no results in-game option". Your claim that it has no results is a bogus claim is... a bogus claim. In certain circumstances yes, unscrupulous admins may favour people who have given them money just like they might favour their friends over random people who've come to the game. Claiming that such is the case in every circumstance is just a convenient blanket statement.

I know for a fact that if I were running a MUD and caught someone cheating, the result would be the same whether they've just joined or have spent £1000 on merchandise. If they tried to say I should cut them some slack because they paid money, I'd laugh. In a non-commercial game holding on to players who continually give money to the game is a lot less of an issue, especially if the admin can already afford the server costs.

It's important for a commercial game to keep its paying customers happy, so I can see why you personally would have that viewpoint. However, don't assume it applies to everyone else just because you feel that way, because no matter what you say I know it would have no bearing on my reactions in said situation. Claiming otherwise, as if I don't know my own mind and morals, I would take as an insult.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Did you just say that your experience is somehow better than the experience of everybody else on this forum?

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

While your longstanding success in this field is to be admired, it shows that you understand what your players regard as interesting and useful.

That narrows the field down a bit. I wouldn't recommend overstating beyond that.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

People.

Are we still debating about what does "Free" mean. Or are we digressing into personal attacks? How about we lock this forum up soon, because it is getting silly. We now have a poll and over 500 arguments about free and various search systems and we still aren't closer to resolution. If we go a few more months we might match congress in finding a budget.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Thanks for putting that much better than I would have. And really, being able to make a living doing something you love is something to be admired.

The post Brody was replying to was tantamount to saying that since there's a market for Rocky Road and someone could make a living selling Rocky Road, that all anyone could care about in choosing an ice cream was whether it was Rocky Road or not. Anything else is clearly shameless manipulation by twisted purveyors of Mint Chocolate Chip.

The other problem with that logic is that one would have to concede that the creators of commercial graphical MUDs are roughly one million times wiser, since financial success = wisdom, which I don't believe is automatically true.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I for one, would have a problem with your categorization, as I choose not to play games that sell advanced character acceleration, such as faster skill gains, training your skills using purchasable credits etc. The four box system has neat, easily defined categories that separate games with perks from games without perks. The fifth box I see as an extension of those game that fit into category B - Payment rewarded in game. I see categories A and B as somewhat problematic, as people's tresholds to pay for a game are different. The checkboxes I suggest are additional questions to better define categories A and B are for use in addition of the four box system:

Category A - Subscription required to play:

The game subscription fee is

[ ] One time/lump sum payment
[ ] Monthly fee
[ ] Yearly fee
[ ] Weekly fee

Category B - Pay for perks:

[ ] All game content is available without payment/donations
[ ] Character advancement rates can be improved with payment/donations

The wording of the sub-options needs some work. I can't think of any necessary sub-options for categories C and D.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

More muddying of the waters that are black already. I can think of numerous sub options for categories C and D, but why bother, this horse is dead.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

How about you go back and read my post and the post I replied to. Then you can answer that question for yourself. I didn't say ANYTHING like that, and it is absurd and ridiculous for you to act like I did.

Someone asked me why I consider myself an expert on what players want. I posted a reason why I believe I have some expertise on that topic. There are many other people with similar expertise. I made no comments as to anyone else's expertise other than my own.

A little more reading and a little less straw man abuse will go a long way.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

As soon as money changes hands between two people, their relationship is forever altered. It is impossible for the exchange of money to have NO EFFECT on the relationship, and therefore on the game. This has nothing to do with admins being unscrupulous. This is about basic reality and the fact that money changing hands forever alters a relationship between people.

Well, I can't disagree with that. Admins on commercial games do indeed have a much larger and more powerful motivation to keep their players happy. That is one reason the overwhelming majority of gamers prefer commercial games.

Well, you can imagine insults where there are none if you want, but I am just being realistic. Furthermore, this is not a moral issue in any way, shape, or form.

To claim that Person A giving money to Person B does not change their relationship AT ALL is an unsupportable claim. To say that this will have NO EFFECT on their relationship is just naive to the extreme. As soon as money changes hands, the relationship changes and the way people treat each other changes. To argue otherwise is to be completely oblivious to reality and the world around us.

For that matter, things SHOULD change. We are talking about people who give you money (either as a gift, a purchase, or whatever) to keep your MUD running. Are you honestly going to tell me that has no effect on you at all? There is no gratitude for this whatsoever?

But circling around to the original point of the whole thread, a MUD that sells merchandise is no more or less free than a mud that sells swords. In both cases, the operator of the mud is receiving money as a direct consequence of running the mud. They are simply different business models and different ways to monetize their game.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Both the 4/5 Option system and the 2 Option system also feature a text box area underneath the choices for admins to clarify what applies to their game. A lot of people seem to be missing the text box thing :)

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Oh I'm sure I'd feel somewhat grateful yes. Would I allow it to change the way I treated in the player in game? Not in the slightest. To do so would be to compromise what I would see as my professional work ethic, which in this case would be to ensure all players in the game are held to the same standards/rules.

Now try not to take offense at this commercial-type people, but I'm going to let you in on a personal observation of mine in regards to "free" and games, that I've noticed over the years of MUD and MMO playing:

The only people who think a game is "free" when you have to pay to access some in-game content are the people who run the games and marketing-type people. I'm talking about GAMES, not websites, not museums, but GAMES. I've literally talked to hundreds of MUD and MMO players over the last 18 years or so, and I've yet to meet one that would consider the following a "free" game:

"You can play ThisMUD for FREE!
To progress past level 10 you will need to pay a fee/donation of £50"

You may all continue to argue that your game is free to play because someone can log in and play those first ten levels without paying a penny, but I have never met a MUD or MMO player who wasn't a commercial game admin or had a career in marketing that thought this was a fair description of said type of game.

Pay-for-perks, when said perks can also be earned in-game with an equivalent amount of time, is fine. Restricting access to some of your games content to people who have paid means it is no longer free, it is only PARTLY free. Claiming it is free is a misleading and inaccurate blanket statement.

Just because business says it is so and has the money and clout to change things to their liking, doesn't make it right or even supported by the majority.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

I understand your opinion on this matter; however, I don't share it. Even if I accept the somewhat cynical idea that party A will treat party B differently if they give him/her money, there's still no reason it has to be true for all games.

For example, what if a game accepts donations only anonymously? Let's say that someone might need to know where the money comes from in the case of credit card payments etc., but that person/entity makes no decisions involving the game -- that responsibility is abdicated to a bank or some uninterested third party.

Or, imagine a game running a store that sells game T-Shirts through something like CafePress. They know orders are being placed and they get money from them, but an admin choosing to ban a problem player has no information on who did or didn't buy 50 T-shirts.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

Personally I think these should be listed under the optional donate/pay w/ no in game "results" choice (don't have the actual wording handy).

Ok, let's say I concede this point. I still say it is useful to differentiate between muds that sell swords, levels, access to classes/races/areas versus those than have no tangible benefits but the person donating may be taken more seriously when they offer suggestions. may get some special treatment that doesn't make their character physically more powerful, or simply just get a hug. :)

Your opinion. Mine is that the 4 choice system (w/ text box) is closer to being accurate than the current one or the 2 choice system (which really seems similar to the current one, except most muds will be under the pay option, instead of the free option). NO system is 100% accurate, I just think the 4 choice one is as close as we can get.

Re: The Non-Cold Non-Hard Non-Facts
 

1) The 4/5 box system differentiates between the prototypical MUD-that-refuses-donations and the MUD-that-only-sells-T-shirts, of course. It merely differentiates between those MUDs that do accept money, and as KAVir and others have shown on multiple occasions, it has done so unambiguously for every MUD brought up. No one has provided a counterexample to the clarity of the system, you included.

2) It's relatively easy to find dozens of "I'm looking for a MUD" threads where a player asks for "no in-game perks", including the most recent one. (It's also possible to find players who are OK with pay-for-perks games. My point is about what players explicitly care about.) I wasn't able to locate any threads where a player explicitly ruled out things like an attached CafePress store, however. Given that the search utility is meant to allow players to automate the "I'm looking for a MUD" thread where practical, how do you explain the gap between your prediction (players only care about whether money changes hands) and the empirical data of what players ask for?

3) Any answer to my DragonRealmsPremium vs. Armageddon vs. NewWorlds question above? () Briefly, if you had to lump them into two categories based on financial models, the way a searching player would, what division makes sense to you?