You seem to be missing the point. Achaea's advertising their furniture inaccurately (like they advertise the RP and most other aspects of their games), crediting themselves with "innovative" features which are anything but.

Instead of responding to the criticisms of his exagerrations, Matt has instead ignored their points and offered "testimonials" from his playerbase, a group that most likely hasn't tried anything but his games, as evidence of the innovation of the features. So yeah, IRE games are going to sound great to them (and even if they didn't, he's not going to post the negatives anyway). But many who've tried more than one MUD often find that what they once considered great is in fact average or worse when they expand their base of comparison. I for one have tried well over 800 MUDs including all the IRE games and not found them the least bit impressive. In fact, having tried Achaea three different times over the last four years, my impression has steadily gone down as I've seen free-to-play MUDs produce much finer games and features in much more impressive manners.

And regarding name-calling, the worst I've seen on this particular discussion has come from you, who've failed to use logic or reason in your posts, ignoring any points made by others in favor of flames.

And as for your criticism of those with "no accomplishments", I've played Threshold MUD too. You fall solidly in that category as well so maybe you ought to take your own advice about being an illogical troll and spend your time bringing that MUD up to par. And try a few other MUDs out there. You might gain inspiration for your own. Just don't call catching-up with what's out there "innovative" or "pushing the envelope."

Take care,

Jason

<headscratch>

All right, maybe I'm having a blond moment and missing something here - but I don't see anywhere in Matt's post a claim that their furniture system is "innovative" in a way that "pushes the envelope."

He's posting about a new feature in one of his games that he's obviously excited about having finished and implemented. No, it isn't the first of its kind. No, it certainly isn't pushing any sort of envelope. But it is a new feature that I'm sure he worked quite hard on to get out there for his players.

Is there something wrong with being revved up about some new work you've implemented? I know I do it all the time - certainly it wasn't the first time in the MU* world when I integrated our game with a phpBB system, or implemented account-based logins, or wrote up wounds- and location-based combat code - but that didn't stop me from being excited and proud about it once it was done. And it certainly didn't stop me from ranting about it to anyone who would listen.

So sue me. I'm a nerd. I have a nerd-like hobby. I get excited about nerd-like things. Is that suddenly not allowed here any longer, or what?

Judging from some of the other advertisements/promotions/bragging posts in this area of the forum that have gone without response, I'm going to hazard a wild guess here and say that the identity of the OP has more to do with the responses to this thread than the actual content.

Close, but no cigar Traithe. The posts here have more to do with the rabid fanboys that are posting in this thread than with Matt himself. Threshhold and Ilkidarios in particular seemed to be overly boosting this thread and over hyping this system for whatever reason. Whether they get any benefit in game, or Threshold has some deal based upon the old engine, who knows, and who cares. Rampant fanboyism almost always leads to attacks on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The only thing Matt has really done in this thread is encourage flames by posting "quotes" as he calls them. Whether they're truly from players, or utter jargon just made up as part of his "push the post up" campaign, I don't know, and again, I don't care. Just thought I'd bring these things to light for those that can't seem to see the reason behind the amount of posts in this thread.

More player testimonials:

"Clementius is so awesome! We asked for furniture and bam! It's in!"

"Your furniture system is just another thing that makes me know I made the right choose[sic] spending my time in AChaea."

--matt

I've released two custom codebases to the public domain and am very close to releasing my third. In addition, I've been providing coding help to mud coders for half a decade, and have been coding muds for nearly eight years. Just because we have different audiences doesn't mean I haven't contributed anything to the community.

With that out of the way, credentials mean squat when it comes to easily observable and verifiable facts. It doesn't take a PhD in physics to tell you that the sky is blue. Your focus on credentials instead of the actual points we've all been making clearly shows how your argument is groundless.

You forgot a point in there, where you specifically stated it was pushing the envelope. My response to you was that it definitely was not.

This has nothing to do with a like or dislike for the_logos or his business, and everything to do with the misconceptions you've been stuffing down everyone's throats. I think it's amazing if anyone would take seriously a "recap" coming from someone with such an amazing track record for misunderstanding and missing the point.

Personally, I have no problem with a MUD advertising their features, so long as they maintain a realistic sense about it. That these features were touted as "innovative" and "pushing the envelope" when they're not is a little misleading.

Personally, I'm glad that people paying to play his game have more features. Less of a waste of their money. But a good number of the advertisements posted, not just Matt's, on this forum are often exagerrations and sad claims of awesome features when they're really not. And often, you're right, noone comments on the overblown claims of those sub-par MUDs either. Maybe I need to frequent the forums more because I probably miss a lot of them.

I'm just as critical about any advertisement, not just on TMS, of products that really aren't that good. That's why I don't watch commercials. Not only do they generate a negative response in me nearly 100% of the time (I'm less inclined to buy most products that advertise themselves because marketing usually brings out my stubborn nature if I see any exagerration or ploy rather than a truthful assessment of the quality of the goods offered), they usually inspire me to comment to those around me of the mistruths and tricks used in them. I do admire when products are truthfully assessed and exagerrations humbly countered by the very people whose products are overblown by others though. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I believe modesty is a virtue.

I still love that quote by Thoreau:

"...instead of studying how to make it worth men's while to buy my baskets, I studied rather how to avoid the necessity of selling them."

Take care,

Jason

There is a difference between being critically constructive and being bluntly inconsiderate, o smug one.

If you've read all his posts here in this thread, one might say this is hardly accurate. People who cannot counter topics productively with level-headed arguments and must instead lash out bitterly and quickly with excessive sarcastic and self-righteous claims are hardly deserving of the word "mature."

So back up your claims and quote the topic have I not countered productively and with a level-headed argument. I should note that that someone calling me names will never get a dignified response in return.

Sure thing. How about this one you wrote on page 5? Very necessary for sure.

Quote (Threshold @ foo)
Great logic there, trolls.

Great reading comprehension, moron.[quote]

So let me get this straight: The topic that I didn't respond to productively and with a level-headed argument was an allegation of trolling that itself was neither productive nor level-headed.

And here I was worried that someone had a legitimate point that I'd responded to in an illegitimate manner. Threshold's legitimate (although terribly misconceived) points had perfectly "productive and level-headed" responses.

If you argue that anyone who decides to supplement their ideas with name-calling should not be responded to with dignity, then you don't deserve dignified or courteous responses yourself.

Can you read? I spelled it out for you: Legitimate points deem legitimate responses. No I don't care if you respond to "Yo Momma" with another "Yo Momma". I do care that you respond to the other points without that sort of idiocy. If you're such a whiner that you can't ignore a retaliatory insult in the midst of a valid argument, especially when that insult is not used to justify any claims, then that's fine, I don't care about your opinion anyway.

Your post has justified my case yet again. It already contains multiple examples of rude retorts. Plus the fact that you stated that your "retaliatory insult in the midst of a valid argument...is not used to justify any claims" is laughable because it further rests my case.

It is your attitude, approach, and serious lack of respect that makes for the immaturity your tone provides to the rest of the posters. Your lack of tact is highly detrimental to the arguments you are trying to arrange merely because you lack the basic finesse required to say things decently regardless of the point you are trying to make.

So don't be so brash. Stop being so directly insulting and maybe you'll get people more likely to listen to what you have to say. You do yourself more harm than help. If you're going to remain self-righteous with the way you talk, then you're going to continue being the one presenting himself in a bad light, not moi.

People who are arrogant enough to be so inconsiderate disgust me. I'm glad I never have to work with anybody who talks like this.

I often wonder that myself. Fortunately my clients have never brought up the touchy subject of interior decorating in multiplayer games, and thus have not yet felt my righteous wrath.

I'm honestly a nice guy, even if I have a habit of feeding whiners to my pack of hungry velociraptors.

That's fine =). I do admit, I do get carried away. However I just can't bring myself to be completely mature in a thread about furniture. It's just too silly.

I never hyped the thread. My first post was a question about when he decided to put furniture in, and the second was a joke about furniture gifts. I haven't really posted that much in this thread.

You guys really are just at the boiling point of an all out flame-war aren't you? Remember when I posted that single post "Achaea Sucks" in the hopes of starting one and it sparked about ten pages of dialogue? Yeah, we even get in flame wars about mundane things. Such as, I don't know, chairs?

Alright boys and girls, I'm starting to sense a kodak moment coming. The love and warmth exuding from the text is starting to sicken me. WE CANNOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN!

And so to refuel the fire, I submit the following:

Matt's furniture is ugly, Matt is color-blind, and you are all paying for his obvious inferior decorating skills. I mean c'mon people - MAPLE dresser with GREEN painted walls? That's just so..declasse.

SUCKERS

Are you just that thick? Janus is mature, unfortunately, and chooses not to argue with someone who is unwilling to talk in a manner suitable for adults.

Have you ever taken a marketing class? This is done everyday. He doesn't have to contort much of anything when the obvious is much easier.

There is no argument. There is just Janus whining about my being "negative". I'm glad he's not willing to continue.

Jesus, did I offend the Imperian Pansy Guild?

Yui Unifex, you are acting like a childish, insufferable troll.

Please, go work on something somebody cares about.

Furniture?
Does ThresholdMurpe have furniture?

Furniture?   Does ThresholdMurpe have furniture?

Impossible.  It's too difficult to implement so soon after its invention.  I know we've been unable to cross what scientists have dubbed "The Chair Barrier" and have been stuck with only technology for custom floral arrangements, jewelers. etc.  And the color-vs-flower-type technology is clearly in need of tweaking.  Pink sunflowers, my ass.

But chairs?  Inconceivable.

You say 'I'd like to order a custom flower arrangement.'
Alanna says 'Excellent! Would you like a single, bouquet, boutonniere, corsage, or circlet?'

You say 'A bouquet.  It's for Threshold.'
Alanna says 'How wonderful!  Would you like it to be white, red, blue, yellow, pink, purple, orange, black, budding, wilted, or dead?'

You say 'Ooh.  Pink.  I like pink.'
Alanna says 'A splendid choice.  Would you like it to be made of roses, poppies, orchids, sunflowers, violets, daisies, marigolds, carnations, tulips or forget-me-nots?'

You say 'No pansies?  Well, tulips then.'
Alanna smiles as she arranges a bouquet of pink tulips.
Alanna says 'There! a bouquet of pink tulips.  You may buy your order from me now, if you wish.'

buy tulips
You haggle the price down to 41 copper.
You buy a bouquet of pink tulips.

Not particularly. In honesty, I merely have better things to occupy my time with.

I should, at this point, highlight the fact that whilst I am a member of the Imperian team, my opinions and views do not necessarily reflect those of Imperian, or of Iron Realms Entertainment.

The opinion I have formed of you is mine alone, though no doubt echoed by others observing your risible dialog.

Sincerely,

Janus

Hi there Juganothion. I'd just like to point out that you've quoted the wrong person, and that the first quote starting with "There is nothing intrinsically..." is not me but our friend Yui. Our friend Janus is most certainly mature.

1) Yes.

2) What is ThresholdMurpe?

Darn, well I guess people will win the battles that they can.


And currently, Imperian has no pansy guilds, though the Hunters just had a cool overhaul on all their skills, check it out.

I find that to be highly improbable. I seriously doubt your claim. I think you just copied the feature. Most muds don't have furniture. I didn't even include ThresholdMurpe in the 600+ muds of was thinking of that did have furniture because I knew that Murpses are rather primitive things that have never pushed any mud envelopes.

You tell me. I know the R stand for Retarded.

I expect the retard running the murpsey thing might know what the heck it is.

Heh, Imperian pansy... You can't just let him get away with that, we have to keep the flame war going! This flame will not end! It will be the burning fire in eternity, like the light of a star in the blackest night! Flame, flame like the wind!

Tyche, grow up.

Dredging up an 8+ year old post from usenet is idiotic.

The fact that you have something like that saved is indicative of a SEVERE obsession you have. Quit the stalking.

Seriously, do something productive with your life.

You are a worthless troll who is beneath contempt.

Don't ask me utterly stupid questions that only *murpe* knows the answer to. *murpe*

*murpe* It'll take a lot more than wearing a manzier and wiggling your rear end to convince me that you're even worth stalking. *murpe*

Pull my finger.

*muuuuurrrrrpe!*
*muuuuurrrrrpe!*

Are you sure there's no pansy guild?  Perhaps it's unofficial.

And I did check out the hunter class.  The additions are excellent.  I very much enjoyed the Bake Cupcake craft skill, as well as the new Weapon Focus: Pillow.

I've lost alot of respect for a number of you.

For all of the IRE haters: Come on guys. This has finally gotten ridiculous. It seems like every time logos speaks up, you idiots come out of the woods to heckle him. Why? Because people pay him to play his game? ****ing get over it, and grow up. From what I've seen, IRE is doing well, and will continue to do well. Harassing logos does nothing except make him even more smug. Way to fuel the flames, guys.

For all of the IRE defenders: You guys have only made it worse. logos, you in particular have fanned the flames. While it might be good advertising, I think it is, or should be, beneath you. I think your best bet would be to ignore **** like this, and continue to do whatever it is you do.

For everyone: Shame on you all. This is the most assinine argument I've every had the misfortune to read, over FURNITURE... *shakes head*

And I'm out. Maybe I'll go to Achaea and buy a chair to sit on... Or, ####, mebbe I'll go somewhere and.... not sit. Either way, I think if I read another post in this thread my head might explode off my shoulders.

-WP

What pray tell does this paranoia over someone supposedly "stalking" you have to do with furniture again? How's it a defense of your view on it?

I agree, this discussion has run its course and is really nothing more now than flaming. Achaea has furniture. While it's new there, it's been shown to be nothing innovative to MUDs, with plenty of other games having had it for years (many well into their second decade).

It would really be nice if people who should know better didn't try to pass off the ordinary as extraordinary in the hopes that they'll attract those who don't know better. Alas, that's advertising though. And if every false claim about the quality of the MUDs on TMS were removed, there wouldn't be enough to field a top 20 list, much less 100.

It's been said in another discussion, but I'll repeat it here. If you're looking for innovation, look at some of the smaller MUDs, though you'll find it in some of the bigger ones too. Just don't believe the claims of most of them on this forum or in their TMS listings.

Anyway, someone ought to just lock this thing since it doesn't appear to be about furniture anymore. Just my thoughts.

Take care,

Jason

m^m^m^mmurpe?
Boy he shure has pretty murpsey lips don't he Bubba?
Muuurrrpe! Muuurrrpe!
Mrrrraaappe!

*murpe*

As this is one of the only polite and intelligent things said out of an amazing load of nonsense from the usual suspects, I'll respond to this.

Nowhere did anyone from Iron Realms claim that furniture was extraordinary. Advertisement does not require claims of innovation, nor does advertising a feature imply claims of innovation. For anyone not totally disconnected from the real world, this should be obvious.

--matt

Actually technically and legally speaking, Acheea does NOT have furniture at all. It has fixtures.

I've watched Judge Judy a lot so I should know.
I gotta go too. Time for Jerry Springer. My cousin Bubba is going to be on today. Yeeearrgh! Murrrrpe!

I could have, but on the other hand, I don't really feel the need to justify ourselves to the people doing the attacking. Let them blow their hot air. It makes no difference to us except to let more people see our announcement by keeping the thread on the front page longer (and that's the only purpose of this thread, given that it's in the advertising for players section). If they want to do our job for us, fine by me.


I'm not a big fan of the stock codebases that are generally used, but on the other hand, just because a feature is stock doesn't mean it's not great, even aside from the fact that what is great is subjective. Quality and innovation aren't the same thing, as I seem to be saying a lot lately. They intersect, certainly, but much that is quality isn't innovative and much that is innovative is likely to be judged as pretty bad by most people.

You're still comparing apples and oranges there. There's not much point in equating a comprehensive system for furniture creation with a shop that sells a bench, for instance, though they could be be said to be "furniture systems."


Oh, furniture is super-popular alrighty, but it's hardly essential for our games either. They tend to be focused on PvP and community dynamics. Besides, the list of what "should" be done is so long as to be functionally infinite.  I kid you not when I say Achaea's ship system was first designed in 1997 or so. It still isn't implemented (of course the original design was thrown out long ago). There's just so...much...to...do, and we even have full-time employees working away, bless their hearts.

--matt

You'd have to stick to easily quantified and verified items. For example, our game has a class of objects called "furniture", but I readily admit that we haven't done very much with them. If a checkbox was just marked "Furniture?", probably 95% of all games have chairs and tables somewhere, even if they're largely window dressing. And if they didn't, they could whip up some cheap-ass furniture code in an hour just so they could make their feature list look cooler. And if you make the terms too specific ("Player customizable furniture"), either the list will be unwieldy or you'll exclude quality implementations that don't fit in such a narrow box.

My gut instinct is that the frustration of dealing with people "powergaming" the system (or just lying) would outweigh its benefits and devalue the tool.

Thank you.  Not from me to you, but from me to everyone who keeps flames going.  I love a good flame war.  I was completely enthralled by that webpage about Derek Smart's ongoing flame wars.  I read that for hours.  So, a thank you goes out from me to all of those that enjoy arguing with each other.  Don't change. What webpage about Derek Smart? webpage.

Indeed, furniture is just a simple application of a general objects and materials system. The same rules that (should) apply to economic pricing, availabilty and in-game effects on the materials craftsmen use to create weapons and armor should apply equally well to common household items. There is no world consistency reasons why it shouldn't, although there very well may be game design reasons.

The only difference between a suit of bone armor and a bone couch is the weight, name, description, wear location, amount of protection afforded and maybe the shopkeeper selling it. These things are usually trivial to manipulate through builder utilities, unless the system is so poorly designed that there needs to be a special case for something so trivial.

There is a substantial case for using a general system -- The same affects that apply to enchanted armor can and should apply to enchanted furniture, such as a king's throne that grants bonuses to wisdom while one sits upon it, a cursed bed that has detrimental affects for those who sleep on it, or even a bench at the town square that grants regeneration bonuses.

And this is precisely why I'd rather be working on a general objects and materials system than simple applications of it. It's so much more interesting than the narrow-minded suggestion you provided. Like I said, we've got different audiences. I'm sorry you don't have the maturity to respect that =). Oh, and your mom says hi.