Mmmm. 21st Century.

By now, weren't we supposed to have wonder-pills that could cure any sickness?

It'd be bloody nice to have a pill to cure stupidity. Oh yes.

-D

</Fallout reference>

Le sigh.

Brody makes an obscure reference, and I follow up with another, and then he throws a ****y fit.

Kawaii. No, really.

Now, would someone care to seriously speculate on his real motives?

-D

Brody, I don't care what you're posting, and I don't care why you're doing it. My points were never intended to be an attack on you, but rather to point out what I felt were discrepancies between what you said you were trying to do, and what you were actually achieving.

You have said that you're doing this for the benefit of the lower-ranked muds, so I simply pointed out that - if that's really what you want to do - there are better ways to go about it.

Just take a step back and think about it. What is it you're really trying to offer to (1) the muds, and (2) the players who are looking for muds?

Brody: KaVir stated my point directly, instead of the roundabout manner in which I was trying to approach it.

Furthermore, if this was so important, why not just have Syn write a script to randomly display 1 MUD from the database on the front page? It's not difficult - I could likely do it myself - and it would have a better effect then what you are attempting to do.

-D

Ah. I see. So, this is something that *you*, and only *you* must do.

My suggestions/points in my previous post were completely ignored - and are likely to work far better than your method.

Interesting. Motive?

-D

You know..I've been sitting back and watching this thread go way out of hand since page 3 and all I can say is IMO (w/out pointing fingers) that some people are so dense and immature.

Who cares if Brody decides to maybe do something for someone for free? That a crime? Why are the few and far between so adamtly against it? Is it because Brody is pointing out MUDs that they dont belong on and have in a sense an envy problem?

Whatever it is..just drop the bickering and act your ages. If you dont think Brody is making the "perfect post" (which is impossible because any post, no matter how good, will always have someone disagree with whatever about it) or isnt adressing specific issues then fine...begin your own thread, post something similar at your own website, whatever but quit acting like a bunch of ignorant self centered morons with some moralistic gripe about how everything everyone else does is wrong and deal with it and get over it

Sheesh...

When I read the very first post in this thread by Brody, I thought to myself, 'hmm interesting'. Interesting enough that I
would make a point of coming back to read about the next mud he provided some information about. Today there are 3 times as many pages as yesterday. All full of folks complaing that he is somehow doing wrong, mixed in with cheap shots at Achaea. Btw, why does Achaea get slammed in almost every topic? How can anyone fault Brody for using his own valuable time to write something positive about a mud he has no stake in? My impression was that he wanted to bring to the front some tidbit of information from a mud that simply sits further down the list. Period.

Synozeer (and Brody) probably have better things to do than write a script that does THE EXACT SAME THING that Brody is trying to do


ffs guys, I think the "ulterior motives" are your own. Just looking for something to bitch about, eh? Get over it, I think from all the other posts in this thread, that you'd come to see that 9/10's of us are all for it.

I played Midnight Sun, and I liked it enough I think I'll go back.

Rock on.

Oh, just a heads up considering all the flak I've gotten off the boards for this.

I did this to prove a point - namely, the vocal minority point I've made so many times on these boards, and had promptly overriden.

Anyone else care to try to deny anything about a vocal minority? Anyone?

-D

Wow.

I've just waded through four pages of nonsense that does nothing but make the mudding community look like a bunch of overtired three-year-olds, looking for and failing to find Brody's next underdog.

Where is it, Brody?

Mmmm, y'know, there was a great site out there, called, as it happens, The Underdogs. This site was dedicated to all the great computer games out there, old and new, which for whatever reason never received the publicity and aclaim they so richly deserve (oh look, it's still there, ). I don't remember anyone ever writing in there complaining about the name.


Sighing
K

Do you people have no faith in humanity at all?!?!? I have little, but I believe some people do nice things. I do them sometimes! When I'm on my MUD, I often offer a new player help getting started. I have no other motive, what could i possilbe gain from that? Its very simmilar to what Brody is doing, in a certain light. Some people just do nice things. Anotehr thing some people do, just to be nice. The server my MUD is on is run by voulenteers, they do not get a cent. And as far as i know, they dont even play. One has a wizard account, but thats just to talk with the admins of the mud for server related subjects. And right now, they are doing the best they can in thier free time to get my MUD up and running again. Some people just do with nice things, i dont know what trauma you went through to lose all faith in us as a race, but dont go blaming other people for it!

-Enix, Lord of Despair and Sorrow

Wes Platt is not only a long-time friend and colleague of mine, but also someone who has made incredible gestures toward strengthening the text-based community.  He's spent time organizing and hosting the semi-annual Andy Awards, he's created his own MU* Index, written invaluable articles and gone to great lengths to bring text-based roleplaying into the limelight.  He's informed readers of his books about The Mud Connector, written letters to both computer and popular magazines that present MU*s as alternatives to EverQuest and formed websites that tout the genre as interactive fiction rather than simple games.  He's asked his coders to help other projects implement some difficult chunks of code when they're short on resources and has met with me (and assuredly others) countless times to help shape thematic and roleplaying structures in projects of our own.

With this particular post, however, Brody's character and motives don't matter--they're inevitable red herrings.  Neither do the motives of those who have voiced an objection.

Regardless of intent, this post is designed to promote games and it seems to be doing a fair job of that.  Take away all the fluff and nonsense and it becomes a simple argument over semantics--different interpretations of the word "underdog."  The objective point of reference of Miriam or Webster with a common phrase such as this fails to cover the gamut of the expression. Wes isn't talking about the quality of the MUD nor making a judgement about playerbase size--he's simply providing a service.

Brody, Brody, Brody. What are we going to do with you? It's a THREE man conspiracy. One man to start the thread where "this idea came to you". Then you of course. Then one man to post your mud. When your in a conspiracy you need to get it right. sheeesh.

Do I have an ulterior motive? Yup. To bring you all a healthy dose of insanity. Now form a line, I can only do one at a time.

Brody, you've still failed to answer my questions, so I'll ask you once more. What are you trying to achieve? What benefit do you think there is in posting a promotion which contains nothing of substance?

As I've repeatedly said, you're free to post what you want, but the way you're going about it is both offensive to some, and useless to most, when it could be so much more. You've implied that you're trying to draw positive attention to the lower-ranked muds, so why simply ignore the suggestions without even gracing them with a response? Is it that your pride was hurt by the earlier, somewhat sarcastic comments that were made, and now you've stubbornly decided you're not willing to budge on this? If so, I'd suggest learning to develop a tougher skin if you ever plan to do any serious reviews. Perhaps it's that you simply don't care what other people think? If that's the case, I'd have to question the value of your contributions, considering they are targetted at other people. Or is it something else?

I think Brody's objective is a good one, but I think the way he's approaching it is poorly thought out, and offers practically nothing of value - while doing so in a way that myself and some others consider offensive. With a little more thought and consideration his idea could be so much more, and I just think it's a shame to see him waste that possibility by refusing to even recognise other peoples opinions. There is no envy involved - why would there be? I've always been an advocate for things that improve the mud community, and have made numerous contributions towards that end. However I certainly wouldn't want any of my own muds promoted like this, so in some way there is indeed the apprehension that I could be next on the "charity hit list".

Maybe he just got wise and rightfully started ignoring you Kavir and went about his merry way.

Burke makes a mental note to add Kavir to his Dulan-ignore list.

Perhaps rather than calling it an Underdog mud maybe revamp the thread and Call it Brody's Spotlight Mud of the Day.

#### back when I was a kid - American Bandstand did a spotlight dance and nobody considered that offensive.. Perhaps this may be a better way to keep the Nitpickers of every definition and good intent from picking but I suppose even that would be picked apart.

Just my thoughts, Keep up the good work Brody, I hope when my mud opens that you will help spot light us as well.

1) The scripting suggestion. This has already been implemented in every necessary sense. Every time a mud is added to the listing, a link to its description is put up on the front page of the site. This happens regardless of how many people vote for or review that mud.

2) The substanciality suggestion. The benefit and substance of the review seems to be that someone in high standing in the mud community is doing it. If you agree with Brody's opinions about muds in general, then you can expect to agree about the muds he spotlights, however much or little he actually describes them. Simply put, Brody had the balls to pin his social equity (e.g., credibility) on the muds he suggests, and that says something for the muds he picks out.

While it may be true that more substance would be helpful, if Brody doesn't have the time to add in that substance, then you'd have to get someone else to do it. If nobody else with Brody's credibility (e.g., Kavir) is willing to do it themselves, then you lose the whole point of the reviews. In any case, if people want substance, they can go check out the mud themselves, or analyze reviews available elsewhere (such as the reviews page). Brody's reviews best serve by providing, not substance, but credibility to the substance already provided elsewhere. At least in my opinion.

I find it vaguely amusing that someone with such an offensive name in England-ish slang, such as yourself, Burke, would add me to an ignore list.

Berk, Berke, or Burke - take your pick for the spelling. All forms of a highly offensive word in English slang.

-D

I doubt that - he usually acts in a very mature fashion. Mud administrators don't last long if they bury their head in the sand every time they encounter a problem.

Oh no! I'm being ignored by...wait, who are you again?

We've already been through the whole "change the name" thing, and Brody has stated that he's not willing to do so.

How so? He's never even played them!

He's pinning his credibility on a mud he's never played? What does that achieve, other than to reduce his credibility?

Finally, Dulan, I don't have a problem with Burke's name, particularly in light of it's meaning:

1 : to suppress quietly or indirectly <burke an inquiry>
2 : BYPASS, AVOID <burke an issue>

Yes, Burke I too would have to say that I am HIGHLY offended by your name. Shame on you.
/sarcasm


Never worry about being you, or anyone else,
Not a care, no concern, don't give a **** ...

This discussion is most amusing.

Continue on please.

And how exactly can his standards make a difference, when he's not even logging on to the muds?

Alajha opposed it as well, and Brianna suggested he might consider changing the name.  Perhaps you should read threads before posting to them in future?

Well, what the heck - if you can't beat em, join em!

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>LOOK, AN ACTUAL LOSER MUD OF THE DAY</span>

Alsherok

Website:
Telnet: alsherok.net:5500

At the point of writing this, Alsherok is such a failure that it's not even ranked!  It's a "fantasy" mud with "An original 9,000+ room world" - and it even has a "Mostly Original" world, complete with Midgaard!

Worth checking out! :)

(Oh, and just to clarify, by "loser" I'm referring to the dictionary definition of "one that loses especially consistently", and by "failure" I mean "lack of success", both within the context of the Top Mud Sites rankings - just like Brody has done).

KaVir,

It saddens me, seriously, to see how far you've sunk with this. You've made your issues with my project clear. I've asked you, and anyone else like you, to have the courtesy to start a new thread for it.

When others defend what I'm doing, you attack them. I thought I'd seen it all until you viciously mocked Samson's game.

You can attack *me* all you like over this. In another thread, via private message, fine. But to attack others simply because they don't agree with you, to mock them this way - it's so far beneath what I (and many, many others) have come to expect from you that it absolutely leaves me flabbergasted.

Your quarrel isn't with Samson. He didn't do anything to earn what you did, except have the gall to disagree with you.

Sometimes, KaVir, being mature means knowing when to take a difference of opinions away from a playground fight to a reasoned, private discussion.

You know how to PM me here. You know how to start a new thread. My email address is .

Best wishes,

Wes

I think that Brody is trying to become a 'Big Player' on the forums here, for whatever reason; this is merely his way of getting attention for himself.
In some twisted fashion, he may actually expect gratitude from the MU*'s he's never played but hasn't a twinge of guilt about advertising for.

Has it ever occurred to any of you that Burke's name might very well simply be an homage to the political writer, Edmund Burke? That may not be the case, but god, give the guy a break. "Reflections on the Revolution in France" was mandatory reading at university.

--matt
P.S. Keep it up Brody. Some people have nothing better to do than look for juvenile reasons to insult others. It's no wonder text mud boards aren't taken seriously and have no impact.

Actually, that struck me as really uncharacteristic as well.


As for the later post about Brodes trying to become a big player...  Well, he does post his fair share most the time anyway, pushing his own mud.  I think the original post seemed unoffensive enough and with little double meaning behind it.  

I mean, some of us still open doors for people with the unconscious 'ulterior motive' of feeling good about ourselves for doing something nice, to see someone smile, or just try to help others.

Unfortunately, it does seem to be a dying motive, nowadays.


People post reviews up top, Mudconnector has a random mud slot, even after all the arguments I can't see the problem with Brodes just posting a blurb of 'this looks interesting' on a mud that isn't in the top whatever.  Who is he to post his opinion?  Who are any of us?  Some people might catch something in the reading if they're looking for a new place and give it a shot.  Others might not.  Its no skin off anyone's teeth unless the mud owenr doesn't want it.  And what then?  Brody just edit/deletes the 'offending' post?  No biggie.  Otherwise, if you're not interested, don't read.

*shrugs*

** Editted to delete a comment I meant sarcastically and wish not to have misconstrued or offend anyone.

I just thought I'd say this to those who are mad cause he dosnt play those MUDs he chooses. He never said he tryed them, hes just saying "Hey, these are some intersint looking features, you might try checking out this MUD." If you don liike that, then deal with it. Hes doing something nice, if you object, thats your right. But he dosnt have time, so he does the best he could, when he dosnt have to do it at all.

-Enix, Lord of Despair nad Sorrow

One think I know is that I would appreciate any help that I could recieve in advertising any MUD of mine on the lower lists, and it would make me feel good to see that someone approves of the features that I offer at my MUD.

I support any actions meant in goodwill, because it does indeed seem like a dying art.

If you don't want Brody to help you advertise, why? Is it because you don't want new players? If this is the case, I personally feel you should not have your MUD listed in the first place, because then that suggests it's open for public scrutiny.

Ah, well, I suppose that will be my two cents on this topic.

- Almondine War
-: :-

You've not asked me. In fact, you've been ignoring me, after I've repeatedly asked you to answer my points. I've told you more than once how what you're doing is both offensive and fails to address the issues you claim to want to address, yet you've failed to response. I can only assume, therefore, that this has nothing to do with any desire to improve the mud community.

No, I posted exactly the same sort of thing as you did, after he specifically said that was what he wanted. If you feel otherwise, then please point out what the difference was between my post and yours. Both could be considered offensive, but could also be claimed otherwise. Neither included anything of value regarding the game itself.

I specifically chose not to, because you hadn't made it clear where you stood, and because I'd come to expect more from you than to obliviously ignore anyone who disagrees with you.

<snip rest>

Wow. This is the kind of thing I would have expected from some of the spammer people. But you? ####, even Dulan didn't go this far. Kavir, exactly when did I manage to **** you off to the point where simply stating my own opinion on a matter warrants this level of a response when I never asked Brody or anyone else to say one word about my mud? You keep going on about how it's offensive - yet you seem to be about the only person left who seems to believe that. A few others think Brody has a hidden agenda or just wants fame. Whatever, that's their opinions. They didn't resort to firing cheap shots out of nowhere for no real reason.

You want the difference? Brody did so out of the kindness of his heart, for the good of the community. Without being asked, and expecting nothing in return. He made no disparaging remarks, no offensive statements. I would have thought you would have been happy to see someone attempting to do something for the good of the community. Quite obviously I was wrong to hope for that. Your posting was clearly intended to be offensive and crude and was specifically used as an attempt at cruelty to try and make some sort of a point with me as the example of something. But guess what? All it's done is point out what an absolute ass you're willing to make of yourself when an agenda isn't going the way you want it to. I've seen it happen before, but never to this degree. No, I'm not about to point out examples with specific links to the offensive events. That would require more effort than I'm willing to put into a pointless flamewar that you yourself are perpetuating for some unknown reason.

If there's a conspiracy or hidden agenda here, it's not Brody's, it's not mine, and it probably isn't even Dulan's. It's yours and yours alone. Only *YOU* know your true motive. The rest of us will be left to speculate on it unless you decide to come clean and confess.

If the community leadership has fallen this far, God help us all.

Edit: BTW, reason we never make the rankings is because I'm not vote whoring, and there may be something wrong with our vote button anyway. I just haven't bothered to report it since it's not really that big of a deal for us. Those people who play like the place and stay around. Those who don't move on.

Pshaw.

The only conspiracy here is between me and Brody, Samson! And keeping this thread active!

</sarcasm>

1) Yes, Brody does have some sort of ulterior motive. That is immediately obvious based on his responses and how he dodges certain questions, while answering others.

2) Yes, there is supposedly a far superior system that I brought up that does the same thing as this thread, just on the front page, similar to my suggestion (See previous comments in thread). Thus, there's no real reason for this thread, except for 1.

3) We're MUDders, Samson. Trying to get us to all play nice and kiss and makeup is like trying to get programmers to form a Union - it ain't happenin'. And, for many of the same reasons, too, no less!

-D

<Edit>

Incidentally, for those who apparently still don't get it, and persist in flaming me via PM's - I'd have never started if Brody didn't insist on this 'goodness of his heart' BS facade, and it served as a great way to prove my comments about the vocal minority. Now, please, direct all further PM's to /dev/null

After I pointed out at some length why I found Body's posts offensive, you said "I find it rather odd that only Kavir and Dulan have taken such vocal opposition to this idea thus far. One I personally find to be perfectly fine. Almost too bad those muds who don't even make it to the 80-100 section can't also be underdogged/dark horsed/spotlighted as well". Yet when I post exactly the same style of post about your mud, it becomes a "cheap shot"?

When I found the posts offensive and suggested that Brody rethink his approach, you said that I apparently "have issues to deal with", yet when you take offense at exactly the same style of post made by myself to you, apparently I'm "offensive and crude". Do the words "double standards" and "hypocrite" mean anything to you?

If he were attempting to do it for the good of the community, then why would he simply ignore and/or disregard any posts which point out how his actions are completely failing to address such?

I did not insult Brody - in fact I praised what had the possibility to be turned into something constructive. However he seems completely oblivious to the reasons I gave as to why his currect approach offers nothing of value. If he disagreed, and gave valid reasons, that I would understand - even if I didn't agree. But he seems dead set on his course, quite happy to ignore other people. Is it ulterior motive, or simply pure pride and arrogance? I don't know, nor do I care, but what he offers now is worthless.

I've specifically avoided posting on this thread up until this point. I understand the issue with the word 'underdog' (I thought of that when I first read it), however Brody has made clear that his intention was to give notice to these MUDs, not to harm them. Most of the people here haven't seen it as an attempt to harm them.

Alajha, who KaVir mentioned, also apologized to Brody (a fact KaVir neglected to mention). Brianna offered an alternative to stop the bickering.

Now... the reason I decided to respond now is because of KaVir's attempt at humor (I will assume it was an attempt at humor... the only other alternative to humor would be that he was being a jackass... and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt). It was lacking, and should not have been done. Also, KaVir implied that Samson WANTED HIS MUD specifically to be spotlighted in such a manner, then made a very bad joke ... that should not have been made.

But, then again... that's just my opinion.

Are you daft? Brody in no way set out to offend, you did so on purpose and for no valid reason other that to desperately try to make a point. Yes, it was a cheap shot for you to single me out as a pawn in your game. Other people seem to have noticed this as well based on the sudden volume of PM's I'm getting about it.

You do have issues to deal with. Not necessarily the ones you may think I'm implying you have, but that's hardly my problem now is it? Brody didn't respond to your attack, and that's got you in a wad because of it. My God, someone is ignoring the great and powerful Kavir! Call 911! Perhaps he was hoping by ignoring you you'd go away and leave it alone. Sadly it seems he was mistaken as you seem intent on continuing with this.

Yes. I found it rather odd that only you and Dulan specifically said it was offensive. Other people were questioning his motives, which isn't the same thing and you know it. If you can't accept what he has to say the first time he says it, then yes. You have issues. I for one take him at his word and am glad he's at least doing SOMETHING proactive.

You think it's worthless.... fine. Instead of resorting to attacks to make your point, offer constructive advice and leave it at that. For the good of the community. Don't resort to becoming a troll or a flamer. That only inflicts the very harm you once tried to prevent. No doubt I'm not the only person who's noticed lately that you've become quite bitter and upset about something. What that is nobody knows, but since I seem to be the first one here to attempt to point this out, I'm catching the flak for it.

So go ahead. Tell me I'm guilty of double standards, tell me I'm a f'ing idiot. Tell me I have no business being here and that I'm just a worthless troll who likes to spam forums for no other reason than to do so. Those who know me would know you were full of crap if you did.

-cough- Please refer me to which post in which I stated that 'Underdog' was offensive, Samson, or please apologize for misquoting me.

However, KaVir does have a point, but the way that he is phrasing it makes it look like he's an asshat at the moment. Brody dodges any serious questions, and ignores any suggestions so as to improve this. That is what has me wondering - why is he dodging questions that could potentially prove or disprove my suspicions? Why does he not want to listen to anyone else's suggestions to possibly improve this? Why is he completely ignoring constructive (And not so constructive, I admit) criticism?

Think about that for a moment. That's the only reason I'm even piping up - What is his motives? If it WAS out of the goodness of his heart, he'd have addressed this already. But he hasn't. And he wouldn't be bloody well dodging questions (Burke'ing them, KaVir?).

-D

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>Kris's Loser Thread of the Day</span>

A Bunch of Bickering Idiots
Website:
Telnet: None (thank God!)

At this writing, this thread is No. 1 on Top MUD Sites "Recent Posts" list.  It's a tedious game based on the classic, "Who Gets the Last Word" game.  Unprovoked personal attacks and pointless arguments are the best ways to gain power (because you FEEL powerful, therefore you must be).  You also score extra bonus points if you repeat your previous statements over and over and over!


Brody's a nice guy.... I think these idiot-fests are more entertaining when I'm the guy with the big red target painted on his chest.

Ok that's my ****-mark.  You may continue....


Oh btw, next person who posts is a homosexual....

--modified--
Aww I was hoping it would be Dulan or Orion....

just wondering but...

....does this count?

Mind you..this was after Kavir pointed out that per his post "underdog" was used in the same sense as "looser" and one can construe under that idea that Brody's use was offensive (though it wasnt)

Just wondering...

 Oh and Kris's last comment is totally out of line..at least Kavir and Dul havent sunk *that* low and offensive.  BAd Kris Bad..now go play The Barney MUD for 10 hours

Yah that was kinda the point; don't worry, I wasn't being very serious with that last comment =)

Now that is offensive, joking or not.

--matt, who has been known to ban customers of his who use the phrase "That's gay." in public on his games.