Actually, that's not quite accurate. If I wanted to hire a pure coder, I wouldn't have hired Chad. No offence to him, but there are better pure coders out there, with more experience, as he is aware. To a large degree this will be his project. Yes, of course, Iron Realms and by extension I, will have final control, but beyond the high-level design structure, which Chad and I will work on together, most of the decisions will be up to him. In other words, I didn't hire him to be 'just' a coder, and if that's how he looked at his role, the project would fail. He was hired to be the project's producer, which means he's responsible for all non-business aspects of it. The design is at least as important as the code and building a competent and capable team is also of equal importance.

I look at text MUDs this way: Any reasonably competent coder can do just about anything that is needed with them. It's the design that makes or breaks them.

Hey man, you don't have to like our games. I dare say I don't like most games of any type that are released. I mean, aside from any specific things you don't like about them, if someone's broadly looking for a DIKU-style Hack & Slash or a mud that forces you to roleplay or a mud focused on furry sex, they'd definitely be better off looking elsewhere. No game can appeal to everyone...especially text MUDs, which barely appeal to anyone!

What I dislike are the schmucks who spout total nonsense like, "You suck because MUDs were meant to be free." or "Doing something you love for a living is selling out!" and that kind of thing. They're entitled to their opinions, but then, so is someone who believes the earth is flat. Doesn't mean they don't have a screw loose.

--matt

Just one word, "Plastic".

You do have to admit that going from running a game that's fairly obsessive about roleplay to one in which by your own admission it won't even be a factor is a pretty huge change.  In that context, I could understand someone crying sellout.

(Note:  I am not crying sellout.  I'm just saying.)

That said,  I wish you the best with it.

Not a factor? You're definitely wrong there. It's just not the focus. I believe in making fun the focus. Roleplaying is one way of having fun. Roleplaying is neither superior nor inferior to any other type of gameplay in a MUD, and we try to accomodate multiple playing styles, to varying degrees of success.

Roleplaying is just a different way to have fun, as is PvP, Hack & Slash, politics, world-building, RTS, whatever. Nor are any of those mutually exclusive with roleplaying. I'm also more concerned with immersion than roleplaying. I, personally, find it anti-immersive to have to roleplay constantly, but some people will feel differently. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

To say that going from one form of gameplay to another is "selling out" makes no sense.

--matt

I tried that logic twice here. It don't work. No there are only two kinds of muds. There is Diku and there is Diku with numbers hidden, no channels and forced role-playing. There is fact nothing else. It's a lot like wahabiism. Well no.. on second thought that's less strict and more reasonable. Nevermind. RPI Akhbar!

I'll bite. I don't see how roleplay could be anti-immersive. Please explain this to me.

I stand by what I said, though. I mean, ####. People cry sellout if a band that has underground popularity releases a radio-friendly single, or if a professional athlete changes teams. In that context I could easily see someone saying it for a MUD administrator going from a type of game that is, by definition, zealous about any perceived breach of RP to a type of game where all manner of breaches of RP wouldn't be a big deal to the admins.

My guess is the guy's interested in creating things for MUDs that seem cool/fun to him and the RP factor not being so huge to him personally, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of SoI's players didn't see it that way.

Regardless, I suspect that despite any manner of name calling, this will go well for Traithe.

Just out of curiosity:

There is an old thread in the legal section, started by the_logos and titled "Shadows of Isildur, IP thieves should be banned".
()

It just surprises me that someone should choose to work for a person that publicly called them a thief not so long ago. It also surprises me that someone should ask a person to work for them that they publicly called a thief not so long ago.

But no doubt Thraithe has a very forgiving nature. And I admire him for that.

As for the rest, I won't even speculate.

Hey, guys.

Sorry for bumping this topic, but:

I'm curious to know how the development is comming along? Is there a set date? I'm looking forward to play on this new project.

It's dead, last I heard. Traithe has moved on to a new project of his own.

Yep. I was a finalist for the job. It was disappointing *not* to get it. However, it would have been even more disappointing to get it and then have the project shelved. I think IRE still holds the rights to the theme, though.

Development has begun on Midkemia Online (working name), but so far it's all backend work and some high level design work (primarily working through concepts for a combat system). We have decided to use the period between the end of the first Riftwar and the beginning of the 2nd Riftwar (the Serpentwar) as the setting for the game.

--matt

Does that mean you're dropping the normal IRE combat system?

Yeah. We want Midkemia to be a different style of game for market segmentation reasons.

--matt

Didn't I say this wouldn't work?

If you make it an RPI, I'll play.

Sorry, but RPIs are just not popular enough as a playstyle to be worth it.
--matt

If you change your mind, let me know. Guess I'll stick with SoI.

People don't change their mind, especially where profit is concerned.

That's an exceptionally ignorant statement. The people in the world who are the best at generating profit tend to be those most willing to change their minds to adapt to new realities or new understanding of those realities.

In this case, neither the reality that RPIs are a small niche even within text MUDs or my understanding of that reality has changed. Iron Realms is interested in entertaining larger groups of people than that.

--matt

You know logos, if you made your DreamMud, instead of focusing on the market and drawing the most players... I mean with your experience in organizing the creation of mud, mindstorming ideas etc.. damn it would probably be great.

ps. before you post that you love all your current MuDs we all do realize that you need to do that for the marketeering... :-p

Anyway I look forward to trying your new mud since you say it will use a different system. I hope one which allows you to use abbreviations all the way!

There are a couple of RPI's that consistantly stay in the top 20 here and on other sites.

Honestly, I think that IR should try their hand at an RPI. They might just be surprised and help the overall RPI market in the process.

*shrugs*

Achaea was my dream MUD actually, and until June of this year, was my baby. I don't have the time to do much direct work on individual MUDs these days though. I'm working on the meta-design for Midkemia Online, and then will hand it over to the lead designer.

Well, I can't say that I personally love (as a player) any of our MUDs but Achaea, as I haven't spent a ton of time playing any of them and was lead designer on only Achaea. Virtually every player of Aetolia, Imperian, and Lusternia knows more about those games than I do, except at an administrative level of course.

It's not about whether I like a MUD or not though. I'm not the customer, nor is anyone else at Iron Realms. We're concerned with the desires of potential players as players make the virtual world go round.

Actually, Iron Realms has teamed up with the series of typing tutorials and we will be creating extra-long commands to give people everywhere more practice at typing. No longer will your typing education be hampered by the convenience of just typing "l" for "look" for instance. In this brave new world of edutainment text MUDs, you will have the opportunity to type, "lookatwhatishere" instead! And remember how you might just type an apostrophe for 'say'? No more will the fascist apostrophe insert its vile self into your dreams, for in Midkemia Online you will have the great privilege of typing "expressmyselfplease" instead of "say" or a simple apostrophe.

As you can see, MO is really going to be the sort of virtual world that stands up and says, "I teach typing!!"

--matt

Being in the top 20 doesn't mean much though. It's the size of your playerbase that matters to us, and none of the RPIs even break 100 simultaneous on a daily basis that I'm aware of. Plus, there are only 3 of them (or so I'm told) sharing the entire RPI playerbase. Achaea's playerbase is bigger than all the RPI players combined. That's not a very attractive market to aim a game at. Helping the RPI market isn't a goal we care about either any more than helping the PK market or helping the bashing market is. Markets don't play MUDs: Players do! A player who likes a PK game is worth the same to us as a player who likes an RPI is worth the same to us as a player who likes bashing is worth the same as a player who likes politics, etc etc. That's not ENTIRELY true, as I'm sure the demographics differ somewhat and the likelihood of paying for the experience differs somewhat, but its close enough to true that we can treat it that way.

There's a presumption by some fans of RPIs that RPIs are somehow a superior way to play. I completely reject that proposition and say that there's no such thing as a superior way to play. There is only what individuals enjoy and for whatever reason, relatively few individuals enjoy RPIs.

--matt

Without getting my panties in a bunch (I was tempted but took a deep breath and realized this was actually an interesting exercise in thought)...I'd like to address the whole matter of RPI and why IRE might want to consider something like this.

Judging by my own experience, I didn't know about RPIs because I came from a commercial game that catered to the masses - similarly to IRE games (but not IRE games). I didn't know RPIs even existed, so of course I had no interest in them.

After several years, I did realize my preferences had grown toward a more intensive roleplaying atmosphere. So - I found one, still not an RPI, but definitely more enforced roleplay. Played and worked there a few years. After I left there, I sought out an even MORE RP-intensive atmosphere and discovered the RPIs.

Considering that RPIs really are (currently) a very narrow niche market, it's possible it is that way - because most players come from similar circumstances as myself.

If the commercial gaming company had an RPI in their cadre, I never would've left them and would probably still be paying a monthly fee for the privilege.

I don't think that RPIs are "superior" in general. They are superior for my personal needs, and obviously I'm not the only one.

As for the 100 simultaneous players - that doesn't constitute a playerbase. 400 paying accounts can easily equal 75-100 players logged in at the same time. Still not all that much, but consider the marketing of the RPIs. With almost exclusively word of mouth, a few ads on websites such as TMS, and zero revenue, they are capturing the attention of between 200 and 500 *account-holding people* each.

Toss some professional marketing in that stew, use the IRE brand name to sell the idea, maybe add incentives for current IRE customers who bring a friend along to test drive the new game, and you've got the potential for a rather interesting experiment - a semi-massively multiplayer RPI.

That's right there are only three, that means that two thirds of all rpis are always in the top twenty.


Most muds period have under 25 players. Only 35 muds have 100 online on average. 75 average 25. 433 tap out at 5, 431 - 10. So, all of the rpis have higher than average playerbases.


It's not unattractive. It's untapped and undeveloped. If the rpis could advertise the way yours do, they might be competetive.

The general population just doesn't want that level of Roleplaying, hence it is an unattractive market. If the general population wanted that level of roleplaying then you would see alot more RPI's and they would have far more players in each one.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but most people just don't want that kind of enforced roleplay. What most people seem to want is a game to hang out and have fun in, roleplay if they want too.

Interesting. Because it seems to be that you are letting -your- personal feelings about RPI's sway your judgement.
Maybe if there was a commercial force behind one, such as with the rest of IR muds, you would build on it? Don't you suppose that an RPI with that backing and the IR name slapped on it would get more people to give it a try? Possibly those from other IR games that might not have ever  even -tried- an RPI before?


I don't recall having said that RPIs were superior, I merely stated that perhaps, you were cutting something down before giving it a shot?


Odd. It seems to me that every time someone makes a suggestion that people might actually like and want to play RPIs  or back them whatsoever you seem to find a way to cut it down.


And for obvious reasons...it has commercial backing, more advertisement. None of the RPIs has that sort of backing. Most of them are completely free with people who are just donating their free time to build and run them.

Seriously, take off the blinders and take a bit of chance once in a while...you might be shocked. You can always choose to take the safe and known path or you can take a risk and see what happens.

There is -something- there obviously or they wouldn't be around. I think it just needs someone to cultivate it and help it grow.

Of course if you only wish to grab what's there...sure you'll make money...but in the long run, someone else will go into the uncertain territory because they weren't afraid to take the chance and make good on what you passed up because you were playing it safe.

(Proven time and time again throughout history.)

*shrug*

H&S, RPI...etc...show you can do it all...and bring people to them no matter what the type because you can do it well.

With all the confidence you usually show in IR it seems sort of funny to me that you don't believe IR can create something that might actually take some of those from the existing RPI's and bring others from elsewhere into it. That IR -cannot- build on something that may "currently" be a smaller niche and make something worthwhile out of it.


Many things didn't have an existing market at all before they were brought about by someone willing to create that "thing" and build the market for it.

I already said people won't change their mind where profit is concerned. Matt isn't interested in RPI's because they won't generate as much profit, why? Because an intelligent person wants to play an RPI mud. The reason you don't see more players playing them and more RPI muds is because most mudders are too stupid to understand it and don't want to take the time to try and figure it all out. Most don't even have the vocabulary of a six grade education.

So matt can take his commercial muds and go shove it, I think the RPI muds shouldn't go commercial for the reason that it would simply taint the integrity of the MUDs itself. RPI muds aren't for kids, they are for a more adult audience, simply because it takes time to learn how to roleplay properly and stay in-character at all times. Something the players of IRE muds could never do. They are too stupid. If I've offended any IRE players oh well, I think you're all idiots for paying for credits.

-D

Thanks for the comments guys. Delerak aside, I can see that you've been thinking about the issue.

Having said that, I'm sorry, but I've got almost 10 years of commercial experience telling me that RPIs are not worth doing commercially. Keep in mind that lots of MUDs have gotten big without commercial backing. Look at the big hobbyist MUDs: Aardwolf, Batmud, etc. No commercial backing there, and yet they manage to get hundreds online simultaneously. As for there being only 35 text MUDs that cross 100 players simultaneously....yes, that's probably true, though I'm not sure what your point is.

The cost to doing anything is the cost of passing up whatever the best opportunity that you didn't take was. It's possible a commercial RPI might do ok, but it's far less likely that it'll do ok as compared to a non-RPI MUD. In fact, I'm fairly sure we could do an RPI that could at least pay its own costs, but it's not worth the opportunity cost. There's nothing inherently more attractive about an RPI to me as compared to any other sort of MUD, and in fact, there is something inherently less attractive, which is the need for greater admin oversight.

Iron Realms is successful because we've made more correct decisions than incorrect ones (or we've gotten really lucky, but it would be hard to be consistently lucky for 9 years), and there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that doing an RPI would amount to a wasted opportunity for us. If someone else thinks there is money to be made doing RPIs, by all means, go for it. Put your money and time where your mouth is and go for it! (Though I think you're setting yourself up for grave disappointment if commercial success is a goal, and it may be worth your time to note that neither Iron Realms nor Simutronics think it's a good idea, at least judging by the fact that neither company has ever done an RPI nor intends to.)

--matt

Jazuela wrote:
Just wanted to comment on this specifically. 400 paying accounts will not equal 75-100 players simultaneously generally. 400 paying accounts CERTAINLY wouldn't be even close to enough to make a MUD worth doing for us either unless those 400 people are paying a lot more than $10 or $15/month.

And keep in mind that, as you say, using almost exclusively word of mouth, a few ads on TMS, non-RPI hobbyist MUDs have achieved 200-500 people online simultaneously compared with RPI MUDs that don't really achieve 100 simultaneously, even though there are only 3 of them (whereas there are hundreds of non-RPI MUDs) making up the entire RPI audience.

Anyway, I don't think there's much more to say on this topic. When you see someone make a commercially successful (say, grossing at least US 150k/year) RPI, feel free to post saying "I told you so Matt!"

--matt

Having at one time worked on an RPI, I believe Jazuela means active accounts not total accounts. Whether that impacts the point you are making is another story.

Mostly in response to the_logos, but probably broader:

1) I completely agree RPI is a highly specialized niche.  There's a limited number of people who enjoy that sort of thing, which at times looks to be an attempt at simulation rather than a game.

2) When I have poked around them, I was surprised at exactly how, erm, dedicated the players were.  I didn't think the character interaction was necessarily of higher quality than other RP-enforced games (if anything, it was excessively clique-ish), but there was a notable emphasis on small details of gameplay-- cooking food, acquiring the most rudimentary of supplies, etc.  For some people, that adds to the immersion.  For me, it distracted too much (*) from the things I do enjoy about games, and I went elsewhere.

3) IRE doesn't strictly make money on a per-customer basis.  There's a sliding scale of fees where some people pay a great deal more than others.  IRE makes money on the product of (players x chosen spending level).

What if the average RPI player was prone to be a much less casual player of MUDs?  In other words, what if the type of person who (assuming they liked the product) typically spent 5x or 10x what you'd milk out of a low-immersion (RP-optional like other IRE games) game player?  I'd suspect that the same people who choose high-immersion games would be more likely to play many hours per day and/or participate in the arms-race-spending model.

*: I'd consider the game I work on to be "medium-immersion"-- I think roleplay is impossible when some players can just opt out of it, but I also think that streamlining certain "realistic" features and replacing them with "suspension of disbelief" features is beneficial.  As an extreme example, I'm not aware of any game which forces you to periodically strip down and go to the bathroom-- we seem to all agree that it's a realistic feature that can be streamlined out and declare bathroom use "off-camera".

I think the problems with RPI's (for lack of any other fitting term, and it differs from and RP I, just so we're all talking about apples, rather than apples and oranges) as a commercial venture as nothing to do with quality rp, and everything to do with a) permadeath and b) no visible xp or levels. Gamers (again we can argue semantics, but I think we all understand what I mean) like levels. They want to be able to numerically measure their progress. No levels is a hard sell to that market. But commercially there are no options for players who don't enjoy the numbers game. Some of them find non-commercial games. Some opt to just go ahead and read, rather than play games.

The RPers who will like the lack of levels are likely to be the most resistant to permanent death. They're more likely to be emotionally invested in their pcs. I think once they've lost a couple of characters and see that the game is still fun, in fact, some would argue more fun, get past their resistance. But retaining them through that learning curve is, yes, unattractively problematic for those thinking about sinking money into a project.

I don't think just because Matt is the most commercially successful member of this particular community he has some obligation to make all our dreams come true. Likely, with his lack of enthusiasm he would be the wrong person. But this is an venue that could be successful commercially in the right hands.

To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made. After all, tanning salons and yoga clothing are also niche, but profitablem if not as wide-spread in appeal as a McDonalds franchise. It's a matter of creating a good product, funding it through its early stages, and marketing it well. If I had the capital, I'd do it.

My post wasn't really aimed at Matt. What he does with his game is at the end his choice, no matter what we say or want. I just threw that though in for the sake of the discussion: Can RPI's be profitable? Or whatever it is. This topic as changed so much.

No doubt money can be made. I said earlier that I'm sure we could make one that can at least pay the bills (ie is profitable). As you point out though, I don't have any particular passion for RPIs over any other sort of MUD though, so I wouldn't choose to have an RPI made when I don't believe it is likely to be nearly as profitable as another choice.

Also, capital isn't really required as long as you can put in sweat equity. I didn't have any capital when initially starting Achaea (which grew into Iron Realms), for instance. I did have a lot of free time I could dedicate to working on the game though.

--matt

I'd love to have the opportunity to pick your brain about how to start a profitable game without much capital. Feel free to message me, if you'd be willing to have that sort of dialogue.

Many people who play Viagra (pay-to-play/perks) MUDs do so in order to have the opportunity to advance OUTSIDE of the game requirements, no matter how impotent they may be as a player. This is where such MUDs generate a good portion of their money, and why I call them Viagra MUDs. They generate their revenue off the poor slobs who want to compensate for whatever abilities and qualities they lack through the application of their currency. To flex their egos, overcome their insecurities, make themselves feel like they're something they're not.

Thus, I agree with Matt that a pay-to-play RPI would not be a very commercially-successful option.

Why? Because in an RPI environment, it's strict in-character role-play. If it isn't achieved through the game itself, and through acceptable and reasonable actions in-character, it's not something you can just plunk down cash for and receive. Commercially, unless you're simply paying to play and get animations any time you want, you're paying for something which free-to-play RPIs offer anyway. The only thing you'd really be paying for is the availability of staff. However, even there you can't manage sufficient staff to handle everyone WHENEVER they want. The only guaranteed way to do this would be to have such a high ratio of staff to players that you can ensure that if every player were online, they're be staff for every one of them. Maintaining such a high number of staff would be costly, and the cost of playing would have to reflect that. At some point, the cost becomes counter-productive to attracting players and your numbers would be lower, which would lead to less interaction. So, unless players were paying to constantly interact with a staff member, they'd find less opportunity for RP with others.

That doesn't mean it's impossible. It would most certainly be a very cool thing, if done properly. But if you're paying to play in an RPI world, the expectations of quality would have to be pretty high, since you're not paying for any perks aside from quality. Even then, most RPIs, like most MUDs in general, haven't got a perfectly-designed (some of them aren't even well-designed) world, and most players don't have the skills or knowledge to interact completely in it anyway (unless it were contemporary modern). After all, if I'm paying to play in an RPI medieval (to choose an example) environment, I'd expect anyone else I'm interacting with not to say "OK", much less "dude".

So what does one do when a player uses such inappropriate, in-character behavior? Do you ban them from a game they paid to play? If not, you risk losing other paying players. Either way, you're losing revenue, which sets into motion that spiral affect I described above.

In the end, there's probably a half-dozen admins out there with the ability to take on such a project, and a couple dozen players with the ability to play in such a world. Hardly the pool for a successful commercial venture.

It'd still be an awesome idea, but I agree with Matt that it wouldn't be a good choice for a commercially-successful one.

Take care,

Jason

I am curious too. I didn't want to ask because I may try it. It seems that my life is filled with one of my hair brained schemes after another. I don't think I need another. :/

That's definitely one of the reasons RPIs are less attractive commercially. It's a problem in any MUD (you can't just let people run rampant being huge abusive jerks, even if they're customers), but because there are more restrictions on a player's behavior in an RPI (ie he has to stick to pretty strict roleplaying standards), there's more to police for and more to punish for.

The stance I tend to prefer is that we punish for doing things (positive actions). Killing players without good reason, for instance. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of punishing players for -not- doing things (negative actions), and that's where RPIs create a problem in commercial MUDs. Not roleplaying can't be tolerated or soon you'll not have an RPI anymore. For whatever reason, people don't seem to get nearly as angry when their time is sacrificed as when their money is sacrificed, so being commercial magnifies the problem further.

--matt