Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That is certainly apparent, and for some people I think it's almost become a way to try and dodge the issue. Therefore I think the easiest way would be to avoid the symantics and instead focus on the intent - such as:

Seems okay, although personally I'd still like to see an option indicating whether or not you can earn everything without paying - i.e., your "ALL game content available without donating Y/N?" option. While people could give the content stupidly high in-game costs, as you mentioned, I don't think they'd bother (and if they did, it's the sort of thing that would come up in reviews).

If you don't like that, another option would be to indicate whether people can purchase non-transferable bonuses. The importance of this is that if the bonuses can be transferred between characters, players will form their own market and set their own prices based on supply and demand - which effectively means you can buy the bonuses from other players using in-game currency if you don't want to donate with real money.

Finally, don't forget that pay-to-play and pay-for-perks are not mutually exclusive - as such, you might want to keep the "payment required to play" separate from the other choices (the other three are mutually exclusive, so I'm assuming they're not supposed to be checkboxes).

I think that falls outside the scope of the definitions, to be honest - you could argue the same thing about PK, RP, or whatever else. You have to assume on good faith that someone doesn't get rewarded with extra RP points because they're a friend of the mud staff, and that they don't get a PK modifier as a birthday present, etc.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

So, after talking with Lasher some I'll drop my objection to those four categories since it's hard to argue that less information is better than more when it comes to search. I don't think they really accurately reflect the various models, and of course we're going to continue to truthfully advertise ourselves as free, but it's not worth arguing over any more.

I trust, however, that since we're after information, nobody is going to object to another search category, along the lines of:

[1]. Professionals in charge.
[2]. Hobbyists in charge.

Of course there's never going to be complete agreement about the meaning of those words but then, nobody who is supporting more information ala donation/payment collection can have a problem with that given that there's not agreement here about the meaning of the word free, right?

I support the above mainly because if we're giving people an option to search for the collection of revenue or lack thereof it makes sense to also give people an option to search for one of the differences between MUDs that influences the need to collect that revenue.

--matt

Re: Nodeka
 

To me, "free to play" means that there's no cost to play. You can play at any time, for as long as you want, and your account won't expire at some point. Nodeka is free to play.

However! If payment (donation is an incorrect term in this context) gives you any kind of advantage, that should be clearly evident in the mud's description. Trying to hide that will not only not work, it'll make the game look bad for people who find out, especially if they find out after having spent time playing and subsequently lose interest because they know others will have an advantage by paying. I don't care if a mud has a pay-for-perks system (although I won't play there), as long as it's advertised as such. Even if it's just a bigger map.

Re: Nodeka
 

That's the fallacy though. There's no such thing as a MUD in which you can't gain an advantage by paying someone, whether it's the developer or not, unless that MUD has no advantages that can be gained.

You might opine that, "Sure, but that's just in those really big MUDs, like World of Warcraft" where one can simply go to all sorts of websites to purchase gold, power-leveling, characters, items, etc. But of course, the first third-party exchange for in-game stuff for real money ever run was for one of Simutronic's text MUDs.

Admin policy and action does not determine the reality of whether you're able to buy things with real money or not. It only influences it.
--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Technically right but I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.

In practice, do you know of any MUDs that outright require a payment to play but then you can't buy anything else?

My thought there is "pay to play" overrides everything else - if you don't mind paying to have to play a MUD period, you probably aren't too concerned with filtering "freemium" MUDs out of your search. Definitely open to being proved wrong here, just trying to keep it simple..

Cool - there's a new business idea for TMS - Offering "Professional Internet Mud Provider" certification. We could even run a shadow company selling cram guides and bootcamps while publicly decrying them.

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

matt/sarapis/te_logos/whatever
:)

Cool.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I'm not really up to date on the pay-to-play muds, but I've heard a number of people in the past say that they don't mind paying a fixed monthly fee, but that they don't like the "the more you pay the better you get" pay-for-perks approach. They basically cited many of the points the pro-free-with-absolutely-no-costs-optional-or-otherwise crowd put forward about playing on a level playing field.

I don't know if they were talking about an actual mud or just a preferred payment model, but I'm pretty sure some of them actually played on pay-to-play muds.

Re: Nodeka
 

I really don't consider that the "most fair" gaming experience.

I have a job, kids, and a lot of real world responsibilities. I'm not some kid living in his grandma's basement, or some guy living off a disability settlement, who can play 15-20 hours per day.

I don't consider it "fair" that in your garden variety MMO my superior gaming skill cannot hope to match the sheer amounts of time these other people throw at the game.

So, what you described may be your version of fair, but I certainly do not think it is objectively the "most fair" gaming experience by a long shot.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

But someone with no life, no job, and 20 hours a day to play an MMO is less of a "Creosote" in your eyes?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You realize there is not a single game on the internet that fulfills that condition, right?

With money people can buy superior hardware, a better internet connection, gold or other currency, items, powerlevelling services, characters, or accounts from third parties. The third party gold/item sales (RMT - Real Money Trade) industry is a multi-billion (yes, billion) dollar industry.

Honestly, I think this interpretation of the word "free" just doesn't jibe with common sense or common, real-world usage. I think the only reason some people choose to insist on it here at TMS is for purely personal, competitive reasons. They want to obtain some kind of marketing advantage against MUDs that are not "free" in their eyes, and think this is a good way to go about it.
I know exactly why this discussion crops up every 6-12 months. A very few people decide they are jealous of someone else's success, or the number of players they have, or something of that nature, and they want to take a shot at them. So they lash out in this one little way in the misguided hope that they can obtain players for their own mud they feel they would not have gained otherwsise. This is, quite honestly, a false hope. Good marketing is not done by trying to control how other people market their own products or services. Good marketing is done by finding new, creative ways to make your own product attractive to potential users.

The same people who want 100 categories of free and pay are all too frequently the same people who oppose search options for "Professionally Run" vs. "Hobbyist Run" categories. If the real motive was giving players information that is useful to them, they would wholeheartedly support this differentiation as well. There are an enormous amount of people who prefer games where the operators have a livelihood stake in the continued, successful operation of the game. In fact, since the majority of gamers play games that are "Professionally Run", it is quite obvious that this is one of the more important factors in players' choice of game. But accepting this type of categorization runs contrary to the goal of "stealing players" from the more popular games, so you won't see the same level of support for that type of search differentiation.

Ultimately, players will find and play the game that best suits them. There is never going to be community-wide agreement on the definition of terms, so it is really best to just let each mud describe itself in the manner its operators feel is most accurate, and let potential players show their agreement or disagreement by choosing to play or not play.

Re: Nodeka
 

i really consider %100 free games or in other words 'completely free' games (that we all know! which muds rightfully fulfill this description) offers the most fair gaming experience..that description is invaluable for many players but makes no sense at all for many others..well, iam not the type for pay-for-perks games but i have great respect for them.some of them are so popular, have some brilliant special-client support and iam sure have the potential to attract even WOW players.but for many mudders,the game dies instantly if they get in-game benefit with their donations.well, they continue to donate for the game, just they don't want any benefit..

if you work hard with a decent intelligence( with some other factors) in the world you live in, you can get the goods,riches,success whatever quicker than others(like real world in most cases[not all])..(you can't get money from forgotten realms)..that is not my concern what is s/he in real life as soon as s/he keeps doing all the deeds ICly.

i meant this with 'most fair' ..no offence to your mud, just my thoughts.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Threshold wrote:
I am not jealous of Nodeka. A very good point was raised about the
claim that this mud is 100% free. That is, doubt was raised, the doubt was
reasonable, and it was discussed. I am not certain that jealousy enters into it.

I can tell you that I have no interest at all in getting players. This is
because I don't actually have a mud. The closest thing to an open mud
I run is a demo for my codebase. I gain nothing from getting players
from commercial muds to abandon their games.

I am as ardent an advocate for a clarified listing system as any of
the mud admins who might better fit your stereotype. This is not
because I gain from my position. It is because the position I share with
them has merit.

I'm not sure why you're resorting to claiming some sort of untoward motivation
for supporting a clarified listing. It seems to me you're taking this personally,
perhaps. If so, I don't think it is warranted.

-Crat


[Edit: corrected typo. It's late, I can be forgiven. 24AUG2007 2315]

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I don't think he was pointing you out, merely for sake of arguement saying that some people only bring issues like this up out of jealousy/some other personal reason.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Does anyone else get a sense of Deja vu here?

Lasher, in case you still wonder, this is what I was referring to.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

So, you're against providing more information for MUD searches? Why? Do you have something to hide? That is, after all, exactly the implication you've leveled at those of us who find adding a handful of revenue gathering options to MUD searches to be insufficiently descriptive?

Or am I misreading your sarcasm? I mean, your MUD, for instance, is run as a hobby. Don't you think some players might want to know that ahead of time? If your motive for wanting revenue gathering options to be added to MUD searches is, as you claim, to help the players by providing more information, then don't you think that players would like to be able to search for MUDs that are specifically run by hobbyists as opposed to professionals? Is it impossible to imagine that some people might want to play only one or the other, for whatever reason? (Perhaps they want to support MUDs as a hobby, perhaps they want an experience that includes full-time staff, etc.)

Or is it that you think that perhaps "hobbyist" doesn't accurately capture what your MUD is about (I happen to agree it doesn't). Imagine feeling that way! Oh wait....

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I would gladly accept Matt's professionals/hobyists checkboxes if it meant we also get accurate labels for the kind of pay-for-perks MUD he runs - and there was some means of enforcing this.

Otherwise I suppose I can throw in a listing for Alsherok and say it's run by professionals. You failed to specify what type of professionals, so I feel the fact that I'm an IT Professional qualifies me to choose that option instead of the hobbyist option. So I'd be a "Professionally run mud that accepts no payments or donations. IE: 100% free." See? It is possible for professionals to run free MUDs!

Of course, my feeling is Matt offered the pair of options up rhetorically because he doesn't like the payment classifications and doesn't want to be trapped by an accurate one for his game. My cynical opinion :)

Cratylus,

I think your scale could use another "payment optional" definition:

Payments and/or donations accepted but not solicited. No in-game rewards offered.

There are games who will gladly accept offers of cash but aren't actively seeking them out or giving players rewards for doing so. I mean, I'm not about to refuse it if someone logs on to Alsherok and decides I need $50 just because. :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Someone didn't read the thread!

I've already stated that I've dropped objection to Lasher's proposed checkboxes.

I proposed the professional/hobbyist checkboxes because if information is good then surely that's important information.

I'm not sure why you're intentionally misconstruing what I said. If it makes you happy though, say "Run by Professional MUD Admins". Being a professional X does not make you a professional Y. Being a professional IT guy does not make you a professional MUD admin any more than playing pickup football makes you a professional football player.


You should probably read the whole thread.

Do you not want to be "trapped" by an accurate label of "hobbyist" or "amateur" for your game? They are both accurate labels and yet, perhaps you feel that those terms do not communicate an accurate reflection of the totality of the experience you offer?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I have to object a little to a tag "professionals" and "amateurs".

WHAT is going to separate them? Are you a pro if you are the creator of several commercial mmorpgs and a millionaire from it, BUT you have a free mud as well listed here? Are you a pro if you have 10 years of education in computer programming or working in support?

Or are you a pro if you are hired by the mud to sit and answer questions in help channels, and spend your other time working at wall mart?

Well... imo no such classification is really showing much. I would rather see:

[] paid staff
[] unpaid staff

(and even that is pretty bad... are you paid if you get below minimum wages? or are you paid if you get just a silly amount now and then etc etc...)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I intentionally misconstrued what you said ( perhaps this means I understood you loud and clear though :) ) because I was making a point. I did so sarcastically because I know full well you already know what it means to be pay-for-perks but were deliberately wanting to be classified as free. I think that's just as deceitful as my rhetorical scenario where I classify mine as run by professionals because I'm an IT professional for a living.

BTW, I did read the whole thread. :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

So, you mean that there's a large grey area involved in terms of what's likely to be relevant to a player?

That is exactly my point.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Pay-for-perks describes a revenue collection method. Free describes the ability to use a product without paying. They are not mutually exclusive. The law agrees with me as demonstrated by the FTC's guidelines on using the word 'free.' Common usage agrees with me as is evidenced by any number of examples from public parks to worlds like Runescape (with far more players than all text MUDs put together) to broadcast television.

Again, what you're are talking about has to do with your conception of 'fair', not whether something is free or not.

Also, I didn't sink to calling you deceitful. I just asked why you are intentionally misconstruing what I said (which you've admitted you were). Why do you need to sink to insults when you disagree with my position? Let's stick to actually arguing based on a chain of reasoning please.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Exactly what sort of professionals is a valid question though. Paying someone technically makes them professional, but does that signify any aptitude or certification/qualification in the field you're paying them to do?

My MUD has a professional historian writing the historical background, a professional coder implementing the code changes, and a professional artist implementing the skilled crafts, many of which are artistic in nature. I'd wager that most of the so-called "medieval" MUDs here, including the commercial MUDs, don't have as many aspects of their game staffed by professionals from that field. Additionally, I've offered several of my staff assistance in their research by purchasing materials and resources for them and letting them keep the books, software, etc as compensation for their time and dedication to making the game. In essence, I've paid money to the staff to advance the project. As they're received something for their services, they're now technically professionals. However, that would make Matt's search choices inaccurate as far as differentiating between the types of games he's attempting to classify because my game is nothing like those games to which he's labeled "professional". If anything, the minimum standards for every aspect of my game exceed the maximum standards I've seen on any Viagra* MUD. Hence the term "professional" is entirely inaccurate as a description for such games.

Given the vague nature of the word "professional" and the lack of (m)any more professional of staff on non-hobbyist MUDs than you can technically find on many "hobbyist" MUDs, it would be far more accurate to instead use the following terms as search options:

[ ] Commercial
[ ] Hobbyist

This would be accurate since the Viagra MUDs and the like are indeed commercial, ie operating for the goal of generating revenue, while the hobbyist MUDs are not. Instead of loaded phrases meant to confuse, the difference between the two is made clear by the nature of why they're in operation. The former are operated for the purpose of generating revenue, the latter are run for sake of their art and the enjoyment that doing so brings their staff.

Take care,

Jason

* Viagra MUD is my pet term for "pay-for-perks" games since the motivation for use of both is in many ways the same for many players: making themselves more than they are without the purchased product, be it a pill or a perk.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It's funny, but if I attempted to dissemble like that about what free means, you'd jump all over me.

Standards have nothing to do with one definition of professional (which I can choose to use just as you can choose to use one definition of the word free). It's whether you're paid to do something or not. If you want to pick, though, we can just change it to "Full-time professional mud admins."

You're going to dance around the meaning of that too and parse it as well as you can, because you don't like the implications that such an overly simplistic description of the care with which you run your game generates.

Again, gosh, imagine feeling that way....

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

What sarcasm?
I think my post was pretty straightforward.
Unless of course you are referring to the quotes I used?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I seriously boggle at the concern over games that are free, games that have a paying system, and most of all advertisements on TMS. Come on people, is it truly that hard to just go and play ten or twenty muds that "look" like the type of mud you enjoy and find out for yourself if the value for the product is there? That is what "test driving" is all about. The issue over who says they are 100% free, 20% free, or cost your first born to play is irrellevant, because no matter what you put in your mud bio, the truth is only found when you actually play the game and decide if it is what you want whether it be free or not.

And on the ad note: Why in the world would anyone care who advertises or who does not on this site? The simple fact that we signature our posts here is advertisement. The fact that we talk about our muds or other muds is advertisement. Have a little respect for the Forums here, the people who post here and the people who pay to keep this place running.

I have played at least 5 of the games on the top forty list here and a few not on the list at all. And every one of them have things of value in them, but like I said a page or two ago, games that have a paid staff can offer a certain level of consideration to the players that in many cases can not be offered from games with a volunteer administration and staff--You get what you pay for.

It is up to you to decide what you want in a mud. That's all.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Yep. Everyone in the world has time. Not everyone in the world has money. Time is the great equaliser! ;)

It depends how certain of those effect the playing field of a game. In a FPS for example, better hardware and faster internet connection is the thing that gives people an advantage, which is one reason if I'm going to play a FPS online I prefer it to be one of the older ones that most people are likely to have the machines/connections to run. As for third-party gold/item sales, I don't support it and I'll continue not to support it. The reasons for and against this sort of thing have been thrashed out many times however, so I won't go into detail.

Now is my view of it because I'm wrong, or is it because over the years the media and commercial enterprises have gradually changed what people view as "free"? Another point that can be argued both ways. Oh, and I'm not out for any marketing advantage.

As for the examples:

ESPN - Not a competitive game.

Smithsonian - Not a competitive game.

KoL - If it proves an advantage over other players, then I'm against it.

PC Gamer - That's down to their perceptions, and whilst I'm sure it's an advantage for those games that make their money by allowing pay-for-perks it still, in my mind, doesn't necessarily make it right. You've probably noticed by now that I'm very wary about the media in general.

As for the last bit, I'm not bitter about paying money for a game. If a game charges a monthly fee and I like it, I'll pay. What I want and expect from a multi-player game is a level playing field for all involved, not one that's distorted depending on how much money you have because games/companies are often only interested in how much cash they can get from players.

Not my intention, or my goal. I think perhaps you are assigning motives to me based on why other people might have argued the point in the past. The one thing I will say is that good marketing is as you describe, but is often done by companies (and I'm not accusing you or any commercial MUD owner on here of this) by exploiting weaknesses and loopholes in rules. The people who try to close these loopholes are immediately labelled as reactionary and misguided by said companies, whose interest lies solely in keeping their advantage. Hence lobbyist groups etc.

Your definition of professional appears to be based solely on whether the staff are paid to run the game or not. Just because someone is paid for running a game doesn't necessarily mean that game is any better than one where the staff aren't paid. I'll agree there's a better chance, but it's by no means a foregone conclusion. However, when people at large see the terms "hobbyist" and "professional" this is exactly the impression they get when they're unfamiliar with the MUD world. It's misleading and unnecessary. I would, however, go along with "Paid staff" and "unpaid staff" or somesuch.

Well said, as long as the MUD isn't defining itself in a misleading way which I'm sure you agree with. Our disagreement just comes in definition of terms.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I would be willing to argue that your view of online games is in the minority there. Multi-player games are almost always a competitive arena, whether it's PvP or who has the best gear. The people that play these games solely to explore them are somewhat rare.

I may never know whether Creosote is better because he spent money, but at least if the admins of a game do not support third-party selling and actively do what they can to minimise it's effects, I can feel as if what can be done, is being done. I suppose then yes, what the admin says is more important than what's going on. I want to know that the people running the game I'm playing, commercial or not, are as interested in providing a level playing field as I am.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

matt/sarapis/the_logos/whatever wrote:
Personally I couldn't care less if this gets added, if
this is what people want. And this is what is so important,
and why (I presume) Lasher takes the payment stuff seriously.

Wanting specifics on mud payment isn't the petulant
sulking of one person. It's the general consensus of
people who do not run commercial muds (AFAICT), which
is the vast majority of the mudding community.

The difference between the "who's in charge" spec and
the "payment type" spec is that yours is just you,
trying to make a point. The other is something
people have been talking about, debating and asking
for years, and Lasher represents the hope that maybe
the community's preferences will trump your
commercial interests.

It sounds to me like it's all over but for the
screaming, and I do hope you simmer down soon,
because regardless of my personal opinion of you,
you are a leader in the community and your
tantrums are betraying a lack of sportsmanship
and an excess of petty spite that we can all
do without.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I am not "resorting" to anything. I honestly believe that is the motivation for some of the people who get on this crusade every 6-12 months. Perhaps I am wrong about their motivation - it is always tough to gauge such a thing.

But I think it is pretty clear from the tone of their posts and from the stances they take on other issues. These are the same types of folks who are against anything that treats professional muds equally. They continually support and suggest changes that artificially and arbitrarily give advantages and placement priorities to games that didn't earn it by sending traffic. If there is any opportunity to slam a professional mud or to personally attack the operator of a professional mud, these are the people who will seize the opportunity with great fervor.

The reason I believe there has to be some kind of ulterior motive such as this is because the reasoning behind this argument makes no sense. The definition of "free" they seem to require just doesn't make any sense, and is not how the word is used in everyday life. The examples are numerous - including many already given in this thread.

In other words, in absence of a rational reason for a given behavior, one can logically assume there is an emotional or self-serving motivation for the irrational behavior.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Ok, I can see how it makes sense to try to determine unspoken
motivations if you really do think that.

Let me clarify my position on commercial muds existing: I think
it is awesome, and they represent the future and salvation of
mudding in general. I support people running commercial muds
not just on a "it's legal so it's ok" level, but on a "they
are doing positive things for my hobby" level.

So this:
Is not me. And yet I support a position you feel
doesn't make sense. Let me try to explain where my
position comes from.

I started mudding on an old LP mud called Darker Realms,
which by virtue of being "original LP" was non-commercial.
I didn't know anything about licenses or such stuff before,
I was just a player enjoying a free game.

Other muds I learned of and occasionally visited were the
same. They never asked for money, and when folks did
pitch in to buy RAM or whatever, they did it for a specific
reason that directly benefited everyone, not just them,
and it was not required. There was no mechanism for unlocking
anything with money.

*That*, in my mind, is free.

We can say that the United States Code declares "free"
to mean this, or that the FSF declares "free" to mean
that. There are all sorts of ways to talk about "free".

In my opinion, a free mud is *not* about "you can play up to
a point but then you have to pay", and it is *not* about
"everything is free unless you want the sword of a thousand
truths, you have to pay for that".

In your mind, such *options* are voluntary and do not
make the mud non-free. In my mind, such options represent
the intrusion of real world economics into the game
world, and most decidedly move the mud off the "free"
category.

After all, let's compare Darker Realms with a made-up
example. Let's say Dollar Realms gives you complete
access to every part of the game for free (if you
can manage to get to it), but only lets you advance
past 1st level if you pay a subscription fee.

By some marketing definitions of "free", Dollar Realms
is a free mud. If so, then what is Darker Realms?
DoublePlusFree?

My point is that "free" in a mud marketing context
apparently means something different to you and to me,
and this is not limited to us two. I think that as
a newbie mudder, if I saw Dollar Realms listed as
a free mud and then tried it and *then* found out
about the money requirements, I'd feel deceived.

It may be that Dollar Reams admins really and honestly
and truly think it is a free mud, but I sure would have
felt lied to, and I don't think I would be alone, and
that is why I think "free" in mud advertising is
insufficiently descriptive.

I'm not trying to undermine anyone's revenue, I'm
not trying to rob good people of their business. Commercial
muds are a plus for the community and bully for them.
I'm just asking that the advertising take into account
that for lots of people "free mud" doesn't mean
"oh, btw, you *do* have to pay for X, Y, or Z."

I do understand that you think my position is so
mistaken as to lack rationality. I disagree with you,
but I am extending you the courtesy of assuming
a good faith belief in what you are saying. I
hope for the same courtesy in return.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That's a supposition that's possible to make certainly, but given that the use of 'free' that you're attacking is absolutely standard in the online game world (from so-called casual games to MMOs) I think it's much more likely that people actually new to MUDs are accustomed to seeing free used as we use it. Since it's also quite common in text MUDs, experienced MUDers are also likely to be accustomed to seeing it used as we use it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there is this large group of MUDers that is being misled. I don't think you have anything other than purely anecdotal evidence that people do feel misled, actually. On the other hand, the way we use free is, as I've mentioned over and over, both completely standard in online games and well within the guidelines set out by the FTC for advertising. I mean, seriously, I've been running commercial MUDs for 10 years now, and I have never gotten an email from someone expressing frustration or disappointment because they felt that our ads were misleading. Never. The only people who ever complain are the same small group of MUD developers on TMC and TMS.

Can you see why your mainly hypothetical scenario doesn't carry much weight with those of us advertising given the facts?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Hmm. It's hard to catch up on a long thread like this, so I apologize if I missed something.

It's a bit funny how we just had these discussions about how to increase *player* traffic on this site by increasing the relevancy to them, but then drop back into a mode where there's a lot of "protecting a game's interest" mode.

Here are a few opinions on "free":

I don't mind paying in the least. I have in the past bought games, and subscribed to games. And after delving into the gray market of MUDs, I see the beauty and simplicity of those two models. To me, the important feature is transparency. When I buy a game, or subscribe to one, I know what my costs will be. The trouble with all these other payment models, is that they start to rise to the complexity of Enron's dealings to figure out. :)

I disagree with the person who said that you can try out a game and figure this out quickly. Well, for one, I don't want to spend half an hour to an hour trying to cull out games I might be interested in. There's too many. Second, it's damned tough to figure out. I won't go into how tough it was to figure out the model on one MUD, because the figures aren't provided (only my guild site had it listed for me). And also, you often don't begin to hit the time when such perks become really needed until you get way into the gameplay, nearer to the endgame.

And also, when I consider payment, I do consider what I consider "fair". Most MMOGs have development budgets of $5+ million, and operating costs in the $100+K/month range. So, I don't begrudge them $40 for a box, and $15/month. But a MUD has much less than that. Even $5/month seems like a lot, and probably too much. And so, on an optional payment system, I get this feeling that my $$$ are paying for other's playtime. (As a RL aside, I'm beginning to get this feeling that the reason drugs are so expensive in the USA is that we're making up the profit margin that the companies can't get out of the rest of the world.)

As for what consitutes "free", I don't care what the legal definition is. There are a lot of legal definitions out there that don't match what a lot of people would call "fair". I can fly on an airline "100% free" if I spend $25000 on my credit card. To me the question is this:

What percentage of your users use your product/service without paying?

Get that up around 25%, and I'll grant you that you're being substantially free. (OK, with respect to MUDs, where there's a lot of newbie turnover, I'd like to see that figure for actively played characters over 3 or 6 months.)

Now, about the professional/hobbyist distinction:

I don't see it as a very valid distinction, but then again, I doubt anyone cares so why not put it on, if it eases the path towards more objective searchable properties?

To me, what is more relevant is what's behind such a statement: Do you have 24/7 staff to handle h/w and s/w problems? How fast is content developed? Do you have GMs on 24/7 to answer questions and resolve problems? Etc. How many times have you called a support line for a commercial product (computer or otherwise), and get told to call back M-F 8-5? How many times do you go to a community website at any hour of the day, any day of the week, and get an answer to a question in like 5 minutes? That's why the commercial/hobby distinction is to me a red herring.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

matt/sarapis/the_logos wrote:
I actually have not looked at your advertising. In previous postings,
my use of the general "you" and specific "you" in responding to
posts might have made it seem like I was accusing you of some
sort of violation of law.

I'm not that interested in the extent to which IRE ads might be misleading.
I honestly don't care that much about your company to check that.

And we are not talking about other online games. We are talking
specifically about muds, of which many codebases have traditions
that inform the use of the word "free" with them.

Expressed over and over in threads like
these is the opinion that "free" in the context of muds means to people
something that is not always what you mean by it. My position is that this
opinion, in the context of muds specifically, is reasonable.

In my example, both Darker Realms and Dollar Realms are "free",
even though it's patently obvious there is a clear difference between
the two muds and their relationship with their players' money.

It is my assertion that "free" is therefore insufficiently descriptive,
and more specific details on a mud's payment policies are a
good idea both on advertisements and listings.

I don't see what's so awful about that.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That was me and I have to question your seriousness in finding a game, your claim that you will pay for a good game, and your detailed experience in mudding. I do this because if you have ever played a mud for any length of time, you know as well as any mudder knows, once you find the game you like you will invest 1000's of hours on it, so complaining about 10 to 20 hours of finding the game you want, when you will later spend 100 times as many hours playing this game is a colossal definition of either laziness or lack of true interest in finding a game you like.

I can say that most if not all the players on NW have weeded through no less than 10 muds, but likely over far more than that to find the roleplay and environment they find on NW. I would venture to say this is the same for many of the other games that have a solid player base.

I'll say it again. Mud descriptions and bullet points only assist in weeding down to the games you wish to try. The only true way to find your world is to get on there and play.

This isn't really the thread to make this comment, but I will make it anyway: Every mud I've seen on the top 20 on TMS are very worthy of testing and playing and many muds not in the top twenty are as well, but would only need a little more scrutiny in finding the mud you lilke.

MMOGS charge only 40/15 because they have thousands of players, my friend, if they didn't I can promise you would be paying ten times that. When you sell a million copies of a game, $40 is all you need to bring home $35 million in profit. This is marketing 101. Paid Muds do not charge their fees to rip you off. They charge them to cover staff, system, and business fees as well as profit. Muds cost money to run whether they are free or not. Dedicated staff and admins cost money.

A last thought, Every mud that I have played that I have paid for or has a paid staff or administration has been worth it. I cannot say the same for all the non-paid muds I have played.

This is not a dis on non-paid muds, only my experience and adage you get what you pay for.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I have found the games I want, and I only play MUSHes now. It turns out that I haven't found one that charges anything, or even accepts donations. But the point is that there's something wrong with needing to take hours to figure out what I'm going to pay. I don't mind paying, but I want to know how much.

And what I want to take my time figuring out is whether I'd like the theme and gameplay. Not the cost. And, if you look at some of these sites, they have purchase options of over $500 in OOC money. That isn't chump change.

There are these so-call contests out there where you compete in puzzles and if you want, can buy "help" from the company. They are considered by just about everyone to be scams, much for the reason that they rope you in little by little without ever being up front about costs.

No, MMOGs charge what they do because that is the "going market price". If volume counted, then WoW with 8 million subscribers would charge radically different than the great bulk (and looking at the numbers, all but about 10) of those with under 100K.

My point is not against "paid-for MUDs". It's targeted at pay-for-ingame-perks MUDs, and in particular, those that have an extremely opaque fee structure.

Actually, I fled MUDs after playing a paid one, and found the MUSHes--not because they are free, but because they provide infinitely more entertainment value to me than a MUD. So, I do not agree to your adage for gaming. Or in software, as Open Source and free is now almost the norm. Or necessarily in board games (if you ever checked out a company called Cheap Ass Games).

But that is what I like, your mileage may vary.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Yes, I'm talking about MUDs too. MUD is a generic term that encompasses anything from the humblest DIKU to WoW though. Adam/Synozeer steadfastly maintained a welcoming attitude towards discussion, listings, and traffic about and from both text and graphical MUDs. If Lasher intends to change this policy and focus the site exclusively on text MUDs he hasn't announced it that I've seen.

I see a handful of people saying that, yes.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

it looks;sucky advertisement place for commercial games,this thread..you're bound to get evil.disguising is always better.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You could break it up based on whether the mud collects revenue, I guess - something like:

[ ] Commercial game, subscription required.
[ ] Commercial game, no subscription fee.
[ ] Non-commercial game, rewards donations in-game.
[ ] Non-commercial game.

No need to use the word 'free' then.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I skimmed most of the posts. But the last time this question came up, I posted, and I don't think my opinion has changed since. I'll post again, because I'm bored and this has turned into a very silly thread of "whose e-peen is bigger."

US Law be damned, this isn't a US courtroom and many games aren't even written or run in the USA, so what US Law has to say about it is irrelevent for this particular thread.

For me, it's a pretty simple matter to determine if a game is free. It's what kind of non-free game, that's the issue.

If you have to add the word "if" or "but" to a statement of "free," then it's not free. Simple isn't it?

"This game is free IF you don't want the premium IMM-run wedding with member-only access to the Honeymoon Suite."
"This game is free BUT you can get that map for a donation."
"This game is free IF you don't mind the stripped-down version."
"This game is free BUT if you give us $50 we'll start your character out with extra skill points, which you -could- get without the money, if you just put 10 extra hours into playing."
"This game is free for one month, and IF you want to play after that, you'll have to pay for the download/monthly subscription."

Now - what kind of non-free game, is a game that isn't free? What kind of criteria -should- go into making the decision about it? Well here's my ideas, for what they're worth.

a. Payment accepted with in-game reward given; reward is ONLY something that non-payers can ALSO get.
b. Payment accepted with in-game reward given; reward is ONLY something that non-payers can NOT get.

c. Payment required with same limits as a.
d. Payment required with same limits as b.
e. Payment required to play.

e-1. Subscription service - monthly payment required.
e-2. Registration service - one-time up-front payment required.
e-3. Non-standard service - payment required each time you level up, or each time you want to get past your latest 100 exp points, or each time you encounter a mob that picks its nose and whistles Dixie.

I mean if you really want, we can add another dozen more categories. But I don't think anyone, at this point, will agree that "more search options" is the best way to go on this.

What I think will work best:

FREE CATEGORIES:
1. Free to play - means free to play, period, no ifs, buts, or exceptions.
2. Free to play, with opportunity to pay for perks that you CAN get if you don't pay.
3. Free to play, with opportunity to pay for perks that you can NOT get if you don't pay, but that have no significant impact on game play.
PAY CATEGORIES:
1. Standard subscription - membership system.
2. One-time payment required.
3. Free to play a strip-down version, AND/OR "limited trial period", payment required to play the "usual and generally preferred" version.
4. Any combination of the above pay categories in any proportion.



As for the whole thing about professional vs. hobbyist, shoot. I am a certified computer technician, which makes me a professional. However, I don't work in the field. I -do- fix my own computer when it has problems, but I don't charge myself for the service. That doesn't make me any less a professional, but it does mean that I'm not "just" a hobbyist, either. Yes, knowing -could- be useful, but so far as I've seen in this thread, only ONE person really cares about it. I personally wouldn't waste my time trying to come up with a "fair" inclusion of the category for a search engine, based on the fact that only one person actually has an interest in knowing.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I think this solution would get my vote. Seems to avoid the sticky problem of the definition of free and categorises most MUDs quite well. We're never going to have something 100% accurate, but this is closer than what we have now I think.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

<Snip: Removed reference to deleted post - Xerihae>

I think the Professional vs. Hobbyist distinction holds more value to players than multiple versions of the definition of free.

Evidence of this is the fact that more people play Professionally made games than Hobbyist games. So clearly it is a distinction that matters a lot to people.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I haven't read all of the discussions above, but "pay for perks" as it is is too vague.

Many of the pay for perk muds use a system where you pay like 20 to 30 dollars and get some minor perks for a year. Other muds allow you to pay up to 10.000 dollars to boost your character.

So what would be best would be to calculate the maximum cost for one character over a period of 10 years, which could be abbreviated to MLC (maximum longterm cost). For WoW this would be about 2000$. For Nodeka this would be about 200$. For IRE games this is more difficult to calculate, but I've heard of figures around 15.000$.

This way players can get a good idea of the potential financial consequences of playing a particular mud.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

This seems like the easiest most sensible of all the suggestions in this thread. The rest of the suggestions are much to arbitrary and convoluted.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That does seem to make some sense though I'm a little unsure about the third option insofar. If you're not a registered charity I'm unsure whether it's proper to consider something a donation when the person giving the money is getting something fixed in return.

It's certainly possible for charities to reward people for donating but someone running a MUD is almost certainly not running a charity. Most of the time when MUD operators take donations it's either income going into the pocket of the MUD owner (who may then spend it on server costs or whatever, but is not obligated to) or income going into the pocket of an LLC or corporation that owns the MUD (who may then spend it on server costs or whatever, but is not obligated to).

Another question is how to deal with MUD operators that only sporadically accept donations. For instance, if a MUD operator took 'donations' 2 years ago but not since, does he check #3 or #4? How about if he/they took them 1 year ago? 1 month? 1 week? Yesterday?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

If you consider being a hobbyist an insult I could see that (though would find it odd), but 'hobbyist' is certainly not intended as an insult by me. I'm a hobbyist at all sorts of things I enjoy doing. Cooking, skiing, jiu-jitsu, etc. I am not a professional cook just because I'm good at cooking, and it's not an insult to point out that I'm an amateur cook rather than a pro.

I also know that when I'm looking for a meal I'm more likely to be excited about one than the other. Some nights I am specifically looking for amateur cooking (eating at a friend's house or cooking myself) and some nights I am specifically looking for professional cooking (eating at a restaurant or at the house of someone who is a professional cook). Is it so hard to believe that people may feel similarly about MUDs and that providing that information is potentially useful?

Just because you don't see it as useful doesn't mean it's troll bait.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

The problem I foresee is that it doesn't add information. Who gets to call themselves a professional? Does it mean run by a for-profit company? Would most open software projects be therefore called hobbyist organizations?

If we can't agree on the term "free", there's no chance we'll agree on "professional".

But since it's a content-free term one way or another, and people can choose which they want to call themselves. I don't really care. Might as well add it if it makes adding the payment information more palatable.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

So, since matt/sarapis/the_logos/whatever is dropping his
objection anyway, I think it might be more useful to come
to some general agreement on what will work, since it
appears Lasher is receptive to a reasonable proposal.

As I mentioned, I like the Modified Osiris Scale
( see ) but
KaVir's works too:

I liked his larger checkbox solution better, frankly,
but this one seems to be gaining consensus.

What do folks think? Can we get some examples? Would
Nodeka fall into "Commercial game, no subscription fee."
or into "Non-commercial game, rewards donations in-game."?
Let's hammer out the specifics.

Also, I propose splitting off the "professional v hobbyist" subthread
into a separate thread, since it seems to be only serving the
purpose of obscuring the primary topic this thread was created for.

-Crat


PS It's not too late to voice support for the MOS:

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I think this is much better, more accurate, and more useful to players.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Avoiding using the word "free" anywhere so that we can switch to debating all day long what "advantage" or "commercial" or "professional" or "available in game" (realistically) mean doesn't achieve a whole lot.

I still haven't seen options less open to debate on their meaning than:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

To clear up another point of confusion, Matt's username on the forum is "the_logos". Continually throwing out that line is not constructive, adds nothing of value to the thread and most definitely is not "good faith".

Lasher/Derek/TMSOne/Webmaster/whatever.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Lasher wrote:
Sounds great. It's got my vote.

-Crat