Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I think what's at issue more is the element of design intent. Is it any surprise that the vast majority of stock codebases do not possess permadeath and the vast majority of MUDs do not possess permadeath? Not at all. The world design simply tends to follow the code. Some may disguise it with a lot of explanation and mysticism, but in the end it really comes down to the established code and mindset of the games' creators. This isn't the case with permanent death.

Most games which have incorporated permadeath have done so because the world design has dictated the code needs. The "realism" approach isn't so much about "real" versus "fantasy" as it is looking at the gameworld design from the position that the code will follow the world design rather than thinking in terms of gaming concepts (levels, experience points, etc). In some cases this has been for the benefit of creating a more realistic role-play world but that's not the only reason. Permadeath can increase the stakes in a variety of gaming concepts (that's not to suggest it can't also be destructive in some types of games).

Role-Play Intense does not mean that the role-play is intense. If it did, the phrase would be "intense role-play" with an adjective complimenting a noun. Like "red ball" or "stupid person", the adjective would be first. Now look at "Role-Play Intensive" or even "Role-Play Intense" and notice that the word "intense" or "intensive" is not in in front of "role-play". Applying your interpretation to the use of an adjective, do you say "I own a ball red because I am a person stupid"? No, of course not. You would own a "red ball" and would be a "stupid person".

RPI is often used as a noun. This isn't necessarily incorrect because they're using it as such with an implied meaning. For example, people will say "I play a RPI". What they're really saying is "I play a RPI MUD." It's the same as if I alternately chose to say "I'll give you all the reds" instead of saying "I'll give you all the red M&Ms." It helps to establish the term through the complete sentence first but unlike many adjectives, RPI has a much more limited application of use.

RPE and RPI aren't quite interchangeable. RPI is merely a type of RPE. All RPIs are RPE but not all RPEs are RPI. In fact, the vast majority of them aren't.

What you seem to have experienced is poor design and administration of the game world if PKers aren't punished for killing and can thus "run the show". The advantage of permanent death is that killing carries consequence. When the consequence isn't made to have an impact, permanent death tends to result in PKers simply ruining the established role-play by resorting to violence knowing the gains outweigh the risks.

Mina brings up a good point about players creating disposable characters and that point is the very reason that character creation on a game with permadeath should be anything but simple. The more depth and effort put into a character, the less likely players may be to invite death and act without consequence. To ensure that disposable characters don't exist, it does require a good degree of staff attention to ensure that such characters aren't roaming and that players who routinely create such characters are eventually shown the door. Mind you, I've played MUDs where you had very basic character backgrounds turn into well-played, enduring characters and I've played (and quit) MUDs with players who'd created detailed disposable characters. Hence, the real key is to identify the player's behavior patterns. That's where some games fall short.

Either for lack of effort or lack of concern, they allow players who think in terms of death being an acceptable risk as long as they can achieve their goals, regardless of role-playable feasibility or reasonable consequence (there's a word for that attitude: twink). I suspect it's these types of players and poorly-run games that Newworlds (unfortunately) seems to have encountered in the past. All I can offer is that it wasn't permadeath that was the problem. It was the players who behave in this manner and the game staff which don't take efforts to punish such players. As a former administrator who took a very, very, VERY dim view of twinkish players, I can sympathize with Newworlds or any other player who found permadeath distasteful on account of such reasons. It shouldn't have been so and the responsibility for ensuring it wasn't so lies firmly on the shoulders of those game staff that didn't take adequate measures to prevent it happening in the first place.

Well, like the term permadeath or RPI, RPE is often misused and/or abused as well. It's entirely possible the confusion arises from the "encouraged" and "enforced" issue too.

As for permanent death being anything but die and that's it, "soft" permadeath is really a term that means anything and thus nothing. Being able to die a million times before it's "permanent" would be just as accurate a use of the term as a three-deaths-and-it's-permanent policy. Likewise, the concept of "soft" permadeath could just as easily apply to a game where you have unlimited lives unless you happen to die to an armored turnip with a really bad attitude as long as there was an armored turnip with a really bad attitude in the game. Even if the aforementioned vegetale were located on a difficult-to-reach mountain on a distant island, that possibility exists that you might die to it and hence "permadeath" exists.

However most people looking for permadeath aren't thinking about the various ways that one can rationalize game circumstances to provide a label of "permadeath". They're thinking what you and I think when we stand alongside a cliff or in front of a moving train: if I die, that's it. No escape clauses, no conditional "you get two more deaths before it's permanent", no "this is the morning train and I can only die if I'm ground up beneath the wheels of the afternoon one". Nope, it's die and that's it: permanent death, be it for the player in front of that morning train or the character who just got killed by an unarmored carrot with a sunny disposition.

Take care,

Jason

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Not a bad post though drudgingly long (I snipped most of it).

I have to wonder though, using this argument if it isn't true permadeath (i.e. 100% in all situations), it doesn't make it intense, then you could additionally argue that it isn't intense if permadeath allows you to restart immediately. You could argue a real permadeath game would ban the player from restarting for a day, week, month, or even six months to really make them take their character seriously. I can see some hardcore game admins saying the following:

"I mean, what's this pantywaist permadeath then restart immediately crap. What are you guys just restart happy? Let's get intense and serious about our characters. If you die on our game, you can't play again for 30 days! Any of those other games are a joke if they call themselves intense. Really. Pfffft."

I guess my argument here is that it goes back to preference of game play and doesn't have much to do with roleplay or intensity.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Now I've already weighed in on permadeath-- but I'll add one thing: I've played permadeath muds, and in my opinion, it definitely adds a ton in the way of thrill and excitement much in the way prof1515 describes.

This is offset somewhat by the fact that thrill-seeking and adventuring is actively discouraged by the mud (because, you know, you can really die doing that).

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Here's the thing. I really like caramel nut ice cream. I mean, it's got caramel and it's got nut. There's somthing about caramel I find really comforting, and the nuts are an excellent crunchy counterpoint. When I go for ice cream, I'll probably go to the shop with the caramel nut ice cream.

I hate to go alone. So, I go out for ice cream with people. Some of them like rum raisin. Some have nut allergies. So, it's nice that the ice cream shops sell more than one kind of ice cream, isn't it? And when we talk about new shops and I ask, "do they have caramel nut" no one gets offended and tries to sell me on butter pecan instead.

I hope this metaphor isn't too oblique.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

That was actually a very good metaphor Fifi.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

The problem is, Fifi, is we have people who know that caramel is made out of sugar. And so as far as they're concerned, any ice cream made with sugar could technically be considered made with caramel. Further, if the shop offers coconut, then yes, they do serve nut ice cream (since coconut -is- a nut). Therefore, any ice cream shop selling ice cream made with sugar, of which one flavor happens to be coconut, could claim that yes, they sell caramel nut ice cream. And if you try to say "no no, I mean "Caramel Nut" ice cream," they can go off on you and argue that they do sell caramel nut, and you're just being elitist because YOUR idea of caramel nut is ridiculous and not what 20 other people consider to be caramel nut. Even though 20 OTHER people have been buying caramel nut by your definition, and not theirs, for 10 years.

So unfortunately with the crowd here on TMS, your metaphor sinks.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

***ROFL***

Jazuela that's great!

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

On the other hand we have three people that think Chocalate is actually Caramel and want the entire population of Ice Cream makers to start renaming all their Chocolate ice cream as Caramel Ice Cream. So really the metaphor does work, your intepretation does not, however.

Actually, I think this whole argument is in the wrong thread. How is it that RPIMUD promoters turn each thread into an argument about their definition of what RPI is?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

GRRRRRRR. I really hate conversations that don't involve any active listening. I need to stop reading these forums. But like a train wreck I just can't look away.

You all just need to be "right" all the time huh? And yes, I'm referring to all of you.

I just wanted to know which muds offer the feature of you die and don't get to come back. I'm not saying that it's better or worse. I'm saying it's different from the muds where you die and you do come back.

You can all play muds that have resurrections have no resurrection or partial resurrection. That's fine. Whatever you like. All I want is to pinpoint which muds have this feature. Why on earth is that offensive to anyone? Why does it require nastiness or sarcasm or arguments? And yes, I mean the people who define permadeath as I do, too. Just because I agree with what you're saying doesn't mean I agree with how you say it.

Yes, I mean YOU.

I wonder what would happen if we all treated each other with courtesy, as if we were reasonable adults.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Fifi,

You are right on target. My apologies for getting off topic. I'm sure there are numerous MUDs that offer full permadeath only. Some may be hard to find because many do not describe this in their descriptions, but surely players here know which ones offer this.

To recap what has been said on this thread, the following offer it:
----------------------------
Two of the JTS games have permadeath. (From Brody)
Armageddon
Shadows of Isildur
Clive Barker's Undying (Mud?, don't know, from Rendekar)

From other threads:

Darksun MUD (Delerak)
Proph1515 talks about Permadeath and may know one or two, I
6 Dragons
Archaic Journey
SoulMUD: Age of Dogma
-----------------------------

There must be more than this, but I do not know where they are from.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

This is to answer a portion of the original poster's question, "how does permadeath affect roleplay"

I staff on Armageddon and I have played there for a number of years. One significant aspect of permadeath is the level of emotional involvement it inflicts upon you. In all the games I have ever tried, never have I gotten the level of emotional attachments to online events than I have with this game. It is not uncommon to find your hands shaking in RL after having just narrowly escaped being killed, or to feel genuine loss when your character, or another character dear to you ends up dying. Most any long lasting player understands and has experienced this.

This is not true for every character you play, just those characters you find yourself attached to. With some of my characters I was pleased to see them finally die. There are also people who play more aggressively and tend to die with considerably more frequency than I did. These people are probably less inclined to become emotionally attached to a character.

In our game permadeath, complete and utter permadeath is not an incidental part of the game, it is key tenant of what we are about. I would argue that it has a significant impact on roleplay.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

The death mechanisms on any serious roleplaying mud would play a significant part in the roleplay. It's a pretty major mechanic that all players have to deal with and very few (if any) ever get to opt out of it. I'm not sure if permadeath on a roleplay enforced game could ever be an incidental part of the game, could it? That's the end of your character and whatever time you spent on it. It'd be interesting to see if there could be a roleplay enforced mud where permadeath was just an incidental part of the game, that's for sure. I guess you could do something like "Toons" where you just don't get to come back.

Permadeath mostly just presents a challenge to me to see how long I can last or quickly I can die. I don't believe it really invokes much difference to me as long as the games I'm involved in have a pretty serious penalty. In permadeath muds, I don't spend hours creating my character and developing the details because it can all go up in smoke at the whim of a player. (And unfortunately, no matter how great a mud is, twinks manage to still find their way on.)

Now would permadeath enthusiasts be willing to play a game that mixes permadeath and non-permadeath characters assuming the story fits and the permadeath characters have certain advantages? Or is it all or nothing for most?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I wouldn't.

It's hard to articulate this, but for me, death isn't a "feature." It's part of the life cycle. It's what happens when things go very wrong. It's heart breaking. Especially when it's not your pc who dies, but your pc's friend. Now there's a hole in thier life. Things have changed. Irrevocably. Things change every time you're presented a choice where there is danger.

It's almost impossible to verbalize it. It has nothing to do with equipiment or investment of time. It has to do with immediacy, with your heart in your throat.

Have you ever read a novel them made you weep? I've sat at my keyboard and wept when my pc died. Why someone else's pc died. When an npc died.

I've spitefully and gleefully laughed at the death of someone my pc detested.

It's a different experience. It makes the game experience round and full and whole for me.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Now there's a novel idea. Does the permadeath mud force npc's to be permadeathed to? Or is this onesided? I mean realism would dictate that if you kill that city guard, he ain't comin' back.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

In most RPIs, any NPC with a specific identity (name and/or background) is likewise dead when killed though to combat twinks who H&S their way through, sometimes they "survive the attack" if it was carried out by someone who killed them by less than appropriate IC means.

NPCs who are anonymous (that is to say not given an name or background when built) are also considered dead though depending upon their description may or may not resurface. The RPI Engine, the basis of the majority of RPIs features auto-create NPCs with variable descriptions meaning that every time the game resets, those NPCs' descriptions change. The idea behind this is that you may have an army of 100, but only 10 NPCs representing them. The rest are referred to as VNPCs (Virtual NPCs) and the variable descriptions allow for the same mobs to serve as more than one.

I can't say for certain, but I'd wager most permadeath MUDs treat NPCs, even if they don't employ auto-creates, in a similar manner.

Take care,

Jason

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Must be something new. I never noticed anything but auto repop in locations with NPC's and one's with names would repop as well not be gone forever as stated above.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

No, it's not something new. Even Gemstone had certain NPCs who were permanently killable, and killed. In some games that -usually- have auto spawn hunting areas, it is assumed that these critters are -not- the same critter, reincarnated. It is assumed that the 3 bugbears you see every day aren't the only bugbears on the entire mountain. But that there are actually many many dens of bugbears that breed and live their lives. You just don't get to kill them all in one day. And by the time you think you've killed a few dozen, another few virtual dens have been bred.

This is not only not something new, but it isn't even uncommon. Perhaps your perspective of things is just a little more limited than you assumed it was.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Yes, I have actually experienced a wide gamut of emotions in the roleplaying games I've played as I took my characters through various stages in her life. I've enjoyed it immensely, but none of the games that I have stuck with are permadeath games. The permadeath games for me have resulted in my characters dying too far too quickly for me to really have invested enough time or emotion into her. I mostly just experienced frustration and a mild send of annoyance that I'd invested so much time to get into the game only to lose out on any attempt at character development. I think it's very interesting that we get such different reactions from the presence or lack of a specific feature set. Do you never feel emotionally involved in your character in a non-permadeath game? What should I do to be able to get more fulfillment out of my permadeath characters? Is it just different wiring or different goals we're looking for when we game?

I've spitefully and gleefully laughed at the death of the hundreds of Albions I slaughtered on the plans of Emain Macha on Dark Age of Camelot. The roleplaying was minimal, and you didn't lose a darn thing (xp or gear, much less your character). Boy, me and a ton of others went at it like it was a holy crusade, though.

Somehow, I don't think the feelings that are evoked for us are that different when we're gaming or reading. I'll admit that I have no real specific feature sets that a game must have before I'll try it. As long as I've heard good things, I'll try it out and see if I like it. Do people who prefer permadeath usually limit themselves only to games that have permadeath?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I played a game fairly intensely before the game I currently play. And loved it for the first two years. And then I felt like I only ever saw the same people doing the same things. And I grew frustrated and bored. Six years later, I don't feel that way about the game I play now. Not only is there great character development, but I get to play with new concepts and ideas.

As I said, it's very hard for me to articulate, these things so drastically change the experiences for me. but they do. For me these things make me feel very intensely transported. Like a good book. So, no, I will not play a mud without this feature and a few others, like detailed description, and a lack of ooc. For me, it's a deal breaker. And again, I'm fine with everyone playing the games of their choosing with the features they like. For me this is what works.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I definitely agree that non-permadeath muds can get very stagnant, especially if there are no remorts. You have the same people doing the same thing because they can't give up their characters. Permadeath does force you to give up your characters if nothing else.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Individual, specific NPCs with names and backgrounds definitely die if they are killed in most RPImuds I've seen. Not long ago a favorite NPC of mine and one my character had often interacted with was cut down in a mass murder spree by another PC. The NPC was taken out of the game permanently and a new one was written to replace her function where she'd been.

Now other NPCs are more "generic", reflecting large virtual populations of the city they live in. If you kill the shoe merchant in the bazaar, he will probably repop eventually, because there are likely many shoe merchants in the same bazaar to take his place. Is it a little OOC that they look exactly like him? Certainly. You could write some code to dynamically describe NPCs each time they repop, I suppose, but I've never seen a game doing that.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

It wouldn't be that hard to do, but it would take a lot of writing and careful sentence construction. Time is probably better spent with running roleplay events. I know that I usually prefer builders put their time into new content and cool events than to have every individual NPC be different each time they repop unless each NPC is vitally important and isn't being used for skilling up.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

<Snip - Xerihae>

If you felt this was important enough, I think it would be pretty easy to do. Whenever you needed to create a new custom NPC, the code would through a series of steps:

1) Pick a random race (or pick from an array of specific races).

2) Depending on race, pick a random eye color. Then a random hair color. Then a random (whatever other features are commonly described on your game). You would probably want a list of at least 10-20 for each, all race dependent.

3) Randomly generate sex (assuming that race has male and female).

4) Randomly generate an appropriate height and weight for that race.

5) Randomly generate a name. You can either have a huge list of names, or have pieces of names. Just make sure you keep track of the ones used so you don't reuse them. Or maybe don't even worry about that. There is more than one "Bob" in our world. It is unlikely that your random generator would create two Bobs with the exact same descriptive characteristics.

Without a great deal of setup, you would easily have thousands of different NPCs. They wouldn't be terribly unique or special (since they are just a random combination of features), but they might do the job nicely.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Your idea is a good one Threshold. The problem is that on these muds each npc (and pc) has a written description one paragraph long consisting of at least four lines of descriptive text. Of course that doesn't make it impossible, just more difficult to randomly generate.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, the SoI RPI Engine creates the dynamic short and long descriptions while the full description remains the same for the most part. Now, unless someone RPs with the NPC and staff animates it, they won't learn the name anyway (since names are not known just by looking at someone) so generation of a specific name isn't necessarily needed (though a staff-written note denoting a combination and name used during an animation is always a good idea). As most of the time, PCs deal with the specific NPCs, not the generic ones, this is rarely a problem. And even when they do interact with the generic ones, it's been my experience that most times they're not doing so in a context where they a) need or ask for personal information, b) are likely to interact with them again even if they did.

Yep, priorities are probably necessary. The reason it's probably been experimented with in RPIs is the lack of emphasis on "skilling up" via NPC use, ie. killing them. Even still, most such generic NPCs are meant as crowd filler. Look at a busy street and you see dozens or more people walking on the sidewalks. Depending where you are, stand there for an hour and you'll see hundreds if not thousands pass. You don't interact with any of them. For all intents and purposes, they're generic entities just going by you. And in most cases, that's all they're there for as far as your life is concerned. Same thing with MUDs. The specific NPCs most people interact with, shopkeepers and the like, all have names and individual descriptions and personalities. The people passing by the shop while you're in there talking or by the pub while you're in hanging with friends are just the window dressing.

That said, when I imm'd I prefered any instance where I was likely to interact with a PC while animating to occur with a specific NPC. Had one instance where I used an auto-create and noticed that a player or two didn't react quite the same way I think they would had they not realized it was an auto-create (ie, they knew it was a staff animation and not another PC). So for that reason, if I choose to animate an NPC for the purpose of interaction, I like having a closet full of generic specific NPCs for use (generic in that they serve multiple minor uses with little or no modification necessary, specific in that they have a complete short, long, and full description which is not of auto-create origin).

<Snip - Xerihae>

Actually, depending on how you intend to use such NPCs, this would be a bad idea. If you feature elves, dwarves, and orcs in a game and orcs are known to be violent toward the other two, a random race generation might result in the local guard auto-create in the elf king's castle to generate as an orc. A better option is to create a template for a variety of different forms.

That said, the SoI RPI Engine does just that. Only descriptions are subject to the randomized auto-create code. Elements like enforcer flags, gender, clanning are built into the auto-create allowing for various types of such NPCs to carry out different functions.

Yep.

Again, if females in a culture wear dresses and males do not, having an auto-create randomly assign gender would be a bit embarassing for the poor NPCs turned into public cross-dressers.

Some MUD codes, an example already noted, do this already.

Entirely possible though I'm not sure if it's been attempted yet. Emphasis on yet. ;)

Agreed!

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

<Snip - Xerihae>

Actually the SOI codebase and Argila 2.0 codebase already do it quite well. The randomly generated content is simply stored in the code somewhere and you can alter the sdescs/mdescs to whatever you see fit. It works very well.

You summed up a lot of how players feel about permadeath right here. I did a video about this and how permadeath changes your outlook entirely upon how you roleplay at a mud.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

This is certainly true at my mud.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

This is a tiny bit harder, but still not that difficult. You just have to create sentences in logical groups, and then add them together when needed. We do this with wilderness descriptions in a number of places, and have considered doing it with some NPCs. Although right now we simply hand code all of our "individual" NPCs.

This is a very simplified example (with rapidly churned out descriptions, just for this post), but it demonstrates the concept adequately I think:

Depending on what your MUD's standards are for descriptions, you then apply the appropriate indenting and word wrapping. You could even set it up to use the categories in random order, for more variety.

Obviously, this is still going to be more generic than hand coding your NPCs. But it is certainly an option if someone wants to make "invidual" NPCs die and stay dead, but be easily and conveniently replaced so their function is not lost (shopkeeper, banker, etc.).

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

That's rather nifty!

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I've played several MUDs over my many years and Armageddon since it began almost 18 years ago.

People seem to be drawing conclusions that personal preferences or opinions on the benefits of permadeath somehow discredits or trivializes the experiences they have on their non-permadeath MUD. It does no such thing.

Some people are seeing the statement, "Beef is only good when it is cooked."

What people are saying, however, is more akin to the statement, "I can't appreciate Beef unless it's been properly cooked."

What's further true is that there are unique properties to cooked beef that are simply not possible without the cooking process. The same can be said of permadeath and non-permadeath systems. There are unique textures, tastes, and experiences inherent to -both- systems that simply cannot be achieved without implementing one or the other. And many people in the permadeath camp are likely of the opinion that slaying someone only to see the exact same person, with the same personality and the same agenda any time in the future would pose several major problems with their role-play.

How could a character truly feel a sense of loss for another character if they cannot actually perish?

How could a character truly feel victory over a bitter rival if they could never truly be killed?

How could a character truly make the ultimate sacrifice or show extreme bravery if there is no ultimate price?

How could a character truly feel frightened if their character cannot truly die?

How could a political assassination work if the character isn't truly dead?

How could you frame someone for murder if the murder victim can simply come back?

How can you truly savor narrowly escaping death when you know full well that even had your character perished, you'd simply be penalized rather than killed?

There are entire ranges of emotions, felt both by the character and the player both, that many feel exist only under a true permadeath system. From what I've perceived on both sides of the fence, I definitely have to lump myself into that same category from the many years I've played. There are countless situations and actions that would've been completely trivialized or rendered completely pointless if characters were allowed to return from the dead.

Imagine two 30-year old soccer players; one is a professional and pursues his game for a living while the other one enjoys the sport as an amateur and plays pick-up games with friends.

The professional and amateur both appreciate soccer. They could both be fans of professional soccer players. They could both spend a lot of time playing the game, but they both may have very different goals and opinions about what makes a good match. Saturday afternoon kicking around with friends at a park might be enough to satiate one man's needs, to give him the experience that he was after, while leaving the other one completely unfulfilled. Does this make either man appreciate the game any less?

The professional may have a different (not necessarily higher) set of standards for what must exist for the "game" to be exciting and rewarding compared to the amateur. That isn't to say that permadeath supporters are professionals and the rest are amateurs at their game -- but that everyone has different expectations and requirements to find their MUDing experience exciting and rewarding.

And the group that favors permadeath are simply after a different experience. The fact that RP can exist within both systems should be a given, not a point of contention.

-LoD

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Not bad LoD, not bad at all.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I thought I'd throw out a different kind of permadeath, that which many MUSHes/MUXes/etc. use. Death there is final, but in most, it rarely happens. In some, it takes a player's consent to have their character killed. Even in others that are not consent-based, death is not taken lightly, and generally happens only after a protracted story.

Perhaps some might call this not true permadeath. What is death if it is never faced? But then, I would ask that you think about your favorite movie or novel. Do those characters have a realistic chance of death? Mostly not. But do they act like they do? Absolutely.

And that's my preferred style of RP.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Actually, one reason I love George RR Martin is because he's killed off main characters in the middle of his books sometimes, he doesn't favor any one character. So it's all dependent on the person. You have to realize though that as LoD stated above it's a totally different feeling when can die at any turn. When you know you can live forever technically there's issues with staying IC and truly playing the character the way it would be played.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

You stubbornly refuse to grasp the fact that this is nothing more than a feature choice. Permadeath is not in and of itself any more conducive to good role play, nor does it inherently have less "issues with staying IC." You refuse to understand that there are extremely well developed game, book, and movie worlds where non-permanent death is an integral part of the design.

Most non-permadeath RP oriented games build the death/rebirth system into their game lore. Thus, people are indeed "playing the character the way it would be played" because that is the nature of life and death in their game world.

Please, for everyone's sake, open your mind to more possible game worlds than the discontinued D&D Dark Sun campaign.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I've played perma- and non-perma MUDs, and I never once considered that aspect as a final arbiter of staying in character. You either stay in character or you don't, and if you don't, blaming a feature is sort of fatuous.

Take non-perma MUD A. There are priests there who can raise the dead. That is the world, and a condition of it. You adapt your character concept to it, or you're imposing values the world doesn't possess. All it takes is some serious consideration as to what that world would be LIKE. No longer will "I keel you!" suffice for conflict resolution, at least, not as a stand-alone solution. In a world where death has less meaning, there is a much greater challenge in character-v-character conflict to hit them where it hurts. Wars are different. Instinct sets are different. Death may simply not be the best way to settle things. In fact, if it's what you rely on most heavily, then you're a misfit to that world, and -should- go play something else. You're not up to its challenges. It isn't -worse- by its nature, so long as the world makes consistent internal sense. Hell, if that's the nature of the world, don't take the guy's life. Take his wife. See how that feels in the drama department.

Take perma MUD B. Okay, there's that adrenal thrill that every single thing you do might well spell the end for your character. It's real-world-ish, and it sure makes things tense. Except that one of the things some people play -games- for is so they can situate themselves where something as capricious as real-life death, which quite frequently has no discernible meaning whatsoever, isn't going to ruin your gaming experience, simply because some pinhead mistook your for someone else. Where's the story in that? The building tension and conflict? Your hours of work, which might also be months, gone in a puff of bong-smoke at the hands of some roleplayer who didn't read your descript closely enough. Sure, it's realistic enough, and it can produce some added dimension to drama, absolutely. But an honest participant or observer should acknowledge, it can also be completely senseless, random, meaningless and banal, just like real life deaths. Where's the drama?

I've also seen perma-death fans hedge their bets over time. Rather than losing a great character concept, or even a satisfyingly decent one because of a random quirk of some RPer who just decides today he doesn't like bards, I know perma-deathers that dole out the same concept, if a bit masqueraded, over a parade of characters. The homogenization is inevitable over the course of most RPer's careers, simply because of imaginative limits. Whether that limitation is seen in the course of a single eternal character or is parceled out over a legion of different ones has no genuine impact on RP. RP is RP.

I can play in either, and become completely emotionally invested in either, so long as my character is an organic outflowing of the world he's in. It's really that simple. It's a matter of choice, and both can have the exact same results.

I just get tickled when I see elitism masking as purism. A snert RPer is a snert RPer, alive eternally, or dead a billion times.

A brilliant RPer is a brilliant RPer, whether housed in a single body, or distributed over many. It's that simple.

Give me a purist every time.

A good RPer admits that mostly, the 'best' features of a mud are the ones they like best, and it's utterly subjective.
An elitist pretends they're being interviewed by Microsoft.
Elitists. Yeesh.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I certainly wouldn't say that death will make anyone a better rper. I would say that death makes the rp experience better and more immediate for -me-

Further, I don't think anyone else has said that death makes you a better rper.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, on the subject of science fiction MUDs:

The majority of Star Wars MUDs have true permanent death. Many of those do have cloning systems, however, clones are (typically) very rare, and hard/expensive to obtain.

For most people, Death is Death. Now one SW MUD that is unique in this is LotJ: They have a system where if you are in range of a hospital, you have a certain percentage chance of being transported to that hospital and 'saved', unless you are on an opposing clans' planet that you are at war with. Which, actually, is a pretty good system, because it makes sense.

- Zenn

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

There is certainly more to a permadeath and non-permadeath environment than it simply being a feature choice. Color or No Color is a feature choice. First Person or Third Person is a feature choice. Warrior or Blademaster is a feature choice. Permadeath and Non-Permadeath are system choices, and they can result in an entirely different experience for the player.

Try to ignore Delerak when arguing these points, but it's not quite as cut and dry as you make it.

Delerak aside, I don't know that very many people are making this claim. RP can exist in both systems, but there's a group of people that want an experience that mimics or attempts to mimic a realistic experience where there is not any kind of afterlife, reincarnation, or ressurection possible. A system where death is final in all senses of the word. This isn't a decision that affects how "good" someone's RP is, but how the system will differ toward the player's actions and general attitude toward facets of the game.

Well developed books, games, and movie worlds incorporating non-permanent death systems does not change the fact that the system is different from a permanent death system. It isn't a feature, it's a global condition by which many aspects of one's character development, character decision making process, and IC reaction to encounters are altered.

Let's say that you were walking home one day and someone stopped you and asked you to bet $20 on whether you could beat him in arm wrestling, double or nothing.

Now, let's say that instead of winning $40, they said that they would kill you if you lost.

Would that affect how hard you tried? Would it affect how you approached the match? Your attitude? The pressure you felt as a result of what the outcome would yield? Would it make you consider other courses of action, such as running away, fighting, talking your way out of it, or shouting for help? Would your mood change? How serious would you take each scenario?

If you agree that someone might feel differently about that scenario, then you should be able to appreciate some of the differences and nuances behind a permanent death system versus non-permanent death. The "issues" related to character development, role-playing, and keeping in-character are not related to a person's ability or their level of quality -- but more so a product of the environment.

This doesn't mean that players of non-permanent systems have "issues" with RP, it means that there are issues with achieving the same experience between the two systems.

The real question, in my mind, revolves around consequence. How could two players share the same experience if the consequences to their actions are not the same? If both players were made to run a distance of 100 meters in under 10 seconds, and one player was told if they don't finish they will have to start over and the second is told if they don't finish they will be shot dead -- won't that have a significant impact on almost every emotional and physical facet of the interaction?

Won't the permanent death system incorporate emotional responses that alter the decision making process differently than the non-permanent death system? Won't those responses alter the way people play? The decisions and choices they make? The risks they take? The way they address people? The cowardice or bravery they display? Does the consequence of permanent death not create situations that are unique to the system such as having notions of an ultimate sacrifice or irreplaceable loss?

Non-permanent death systems would have unique properties and conditions as well. How does someone integrate back into a system that has killed them? How do their relationships change? How does their role change from the experience?

They are vastly different and provide vastly different experiences. Don't try to place the two ideas in a linear system with one ahead of the other -- just accept them in the same space and play the one that interests you the most.

-LoD

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I don't fail to realize anything Threshold. What you seem to fail to be realizing is this:

All of your points you make are in reference to books. While this is indeed a reputable comparison in terms of RPI muds which do play and feel like you're in a novel sometimes, it doesn't grasp the full experience of having to deal with a permanent death on a character. I agree that it is a feature choice, but it's not JUST a feature choice. It's a totally different experience, it's a totally different ballgame and to say that it doesn't improve somebodys ability to stay in-character while on the mud is just ignorant of the RPI system.

What permanent death does, for most people, if not all of the players is it makes you think differently about your character. It makes the experience more real.

If I login to a mud, any mud where death simply has no meaning, it detracts completely from being able to make decisions with a character. Decisions, while it doesn't seem like a big topic, matters a lot on an RPI mud where death is constantly in the back of your mind. It's just a totally different experience, and it further reinforces your roleplay. Even if a MUD has a setting where there is "reincarnation" you're getting into the world of either High Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or another genre that doesn't fit well with RPI muds for the most part. Can it be done? Probably, but all of the RPI's I know are low fantasy muds.

At the same time you have to realize that even if an RPI mud did this and permadeath wasn't as permanent, because of one of your examples you listed, the experience would still be different because of the 18 other features that go into an RPI. Everything connects to help make the mud feel more real and intense, whereas on most other muds this is not true.

The biggest example I can think of is dialogue. A lot of muds focus on dialogue as the main function of roleplaying, this is simply elementary in my opinion. While dialogue is very important to a certain extent, it shouldn't be the one thing that forces your plots, your storylines, or your characters forward. I've played mute characters and they've had just as much depth and personality as my characters that could engage in dialogue.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

It doesn't stop you from staying in-character I totally agree. It aids and helps you to stay in-character in a different manner. A different fashion, it totally remodels your thinking pattern when you're roleplaying a character.
The argument comes down to good roleplaying, which in my opinion encompasses a lot more then just "stay in-character guys". There are personalities, habits, the way your character walks, talks, eats, smiles, all tie into it. The thing that permadeath does is makes you change your decisions completely and makes you roleplay more realistically, rather then roleplaying unrealistically.

An example would be, let's say you have a character with certain traits. One trait of the character is that they don't believe in running away in a fight. On a permdeath mud will you flee if you're about to die or will you stay and die and play out the character even if you know you're going to die? The decision is much easier to make on a non-permdeath mud because you'll simply come back to life. On a permdeath mud it forces you to make a much harder decision and if you make the right decision to stay and die, you've become a much better roleplayer.

I totally agree with your first point. It's a totally different experience, but at the same time it's an unrealistic setting, therefore the core elements of roleplaying get hurt in that environment.

As to your second point, the drama exists everywhere. If you don't think death is dramatic that's fine, but to say that dramatic scenes don't exist is ridiculous. Go read Arms rp logs, they have plenty of drama.

No RP is not RP. It's not the same everywhere, not everybody is going to do it the same. There is no "right" way of course, but there are people out there who have a much different understanding of the aspect of it all, and I have respect the people who do understand these nuances.

Well how do you decide if a roleplay is snert or brilliant? What are the qualifications of a " brilliant" roleplayer. I honestly don't think "It's that simple." There's different kinds of people playing all of these muds and everyone is going to have a different outlook on how to roleplay a certain character, the big difference is at RPI muds the act of roleplaying is compared much more to acting in real life then at any other muds I've ever played, which in my opinion puts them ahead of roleplay muds that don't.

Actions speak louder then words, really all I've got to say on the matter.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Ignore me? You can try but you'll fail.

I never said roleplay can't exist on other muds, simply that muds with permadeath and the (18) other features included will have better roleplaying in general. A mud that only has permadeath and no other RPI featuresets? No I don't think so.

Yes, exactly.. the rest of your post is the same thing I've been saying.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Hey guys I'm an elitist by the way.

Also: here's a link to a discussion 3 years ago at Mudlab.

[

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

It is still just a feature though. It is a significant feature, but it is still just a feature. There are many other features that have a far more significant impact on the game.

But the point is, the direction you go with this feature choice does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. It does not create more or less "issues staying IC." Perma or non-perma death is not the determining factor.

I understand the point you are making, but I think this is a somewhat absurd example. I simply would not gamble my life on an arm wrestling match, and I really wouldn't enjoy a game that forced me to do so. I would find that extremely unbelievable, and I think believability is a more important goal than "realism." Realism is usually a poor goal for game design.

Furthermore, it isn't even a good analogy for permadeath games. The fact that you are allowed to create new characters means it really isn't at all like real life. You know at all times that you can simply make a new character. In my experience playing permadeath muds, people end up being friends with the same people a lot of the time even after making a new character. So the permanent "death" is really little more than a speed bump. In no time at all, they are pretty much doing the same thing they were doing before the death, which is not very different from a pendeath game.

If you want to use analogies that compare situations in permadeath games to dying in real life, you would have to make a game that once you die you are never allowed to play it again. Otherwise, it is totally invalid to try and compare permadeath to real life death.

But in a permadeath mud, they still just start over. The difference is really not as significant as you claim.

And in some respects, permadeath can make things easier. If you get your character in a really nasty situation, death can be an easy way out. Die, make a new character, and you are totally free of the consequences of your actions. But in a non-permadeath mud, you might have to face the consequences for years to come. So for some RP decisions, the results can be more grave and more serious on a non-permadeath mud. This isn't as cut and dried as some people think it is.

In fact, one could argue that this is actually MORE realistic, since most conflict situations in real life do not boil down to one party murdering the other. If it did, either Hillary or Obama would have been killed months ago. People in real life are generally forced to deal with the consequences of their actions for decades. They cannot just die and start over. But I don't particularly care about this argument, because as I already said, I think realism is usually a bad design goal. Believability and internal consistency are better goals.

But again, this isn't even the point I was arguing (although it is an interesting issue to discuss). I was responding to Delerak's claim that permadeath results in universally better RP, and that non-permadeath muds create "issues staying IC" and people don't "play their characters the way they would be played."

Perma or non-perma death is definitely a significant feature difference. It does indeed create a very different game play experience. It dramatically affects the way you make decisions for your character. Some decisions have to be taken more seriously on a permadeath mud, and some decisions have to be taken more seriously on a non-permadeath mud. But in the end, it is still just another feature, and the direction you go with this feature has no effect (by itself!) on the quality of RP on a game or the potential quality of RP on a game.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

<Snip. Hmm my scissors are wearing out... - Xerihae>

'Realistic' RP isn't the penultimate. Quite often, it's the most mundane, and all the elements of what makes for RP that you listed are exactly what I'm talking about when I say... RP. Playing a Role. Making a Role and Playing it. Acting. Staying In Character. You may need this broken down a bit. That includes walking, talking, accent/dialect, biases, faults/flaws, fears, favorites, mannerisms, and something usually lacking in RPIs as far as I'm concerned, the ACTOR's ability to move from one playing clique to another if the character dies, rather than rolling a new perma-death character, and playing with the same people you played with in all your other perma-death creatures, because REALISTICALLY, a character isn't -aware- of the actors behind the scenes (and therefore more predisposed to hang out with them). Characters rolled up knowing you're going to be playing with the same clique already have a built-in weird stat: Compatibility With Former Character's Clique, hereafter abbreviated as CWFCC. The stat may not show up on screen, but it sure shows up in the character generation process.

Subsets or parcels of features may be the crutch you personally need to produce your idea of quality roleplay, and for that, I hope some seasoning improves both your skills and your ability to express them clearly, and the ability to see beyond a narrow point of view. All the things you crave in a MUD are fine and dandy, especially if they help you to do that.

Let me tell you why I am certain you lack the basis for elitism. Roleplaying, acting, hell, having a conversation... is -listening- and responding organically. Your listening, reasoning and responsive skills are underformed. Perfect example, when addressing -me-, you still insert an aside to an imaginary audience of followers, when a person paying attention to the thread would realize that here and elsewhere, your posts largely miss the point, and quite a few people disagree with you, constantly pointing out that you don't listen, or when you do, it's to 'interpret' posts to mean something they don't, trip all over yourself defending careless thoughts/words, and to still pound your chest at the end of the day like you've triumphed over those whom would dare deign to gainsay thee.

You may need all the 'realism' you claim exists in your mud in order to seamlessly and effortlessly stay in character. To that, what can I say? Those are your needs. Those are your opinions, and you are of course entitled to them. Not everyone is thus shackled, and shockingly, some of those people who disagree with you might just be doing it for your edification.
What you're not entitled to is the psuedo-authoritative veneer that is so evident in your posts and videos, particularly the ridiculous one where you're munching a banana, and clearly demonstrating a dishonest intent in exposing an obvious bias to prove a dishonest point. That, and you lied to your parents. Admirable.

I'm a purist. RP is RP. That statement doesn't require your interpretation from English to Derelakian. Realism and believability are not always compatible creatures, and perma-death, one single feature, the topic of this thread, is not a necessary feature to promote the kind of RP that 99% of people would find satisfying. In just as many cases where someone could cite that it promoted quality RP, I can list a dozen where it did precisely the opposite. I can -easily- see, based on your responses and your particularly petty and vindictive video, that interacting with you in a perma-death mud, especially where you might be an admin, would be an exercise in trying to confuse someone with REALITY and FACTS.

Respond eleven times to my post, somewhere in your 2-1 responses to every other post on the thread. It's this kind of limelight-groping center-of-attention-deficit disorder behavior that makes me wonder what you think you know about quality INTERactions at all. I made my point, and some get it. Some don't.
There's no need to belabor it.

I wonder, in your busy day of making this whompin' good mud of yours, how it is that your time is spent making videos to support invalid points, writing posts to defend careless and underformed thoughts and words, that you actually have time to make a mud.

Worse than wasting your time, by far, is the fact that I just wasted mine in the hope your viewpoint might expand a millimeter to accept that your subjective qualifications for what is an RPI is precisely that. Your opinion, and chockful of biases that you seem utterly unaware of.

It won't happen again. What you might try and absorb is how much you've hurt your future business in your posting style and content. I cannot think of even one reason at all, based on what I've read, to even -try- your mud, and decades of RP experience demonstrate I'll try damned near -anything-.

I repeat.
Yeesh.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

<Snip - Xerihae>

No, I never said it was the penultimate. But to claim that it is mundane is just ignorance. I'm not trying to judge the roleplay at other muds, I speak only from personal preference. The fact that you say mannerisms, fears, flaws/faults, etc, are all LACKING at RPI Muds is the most ignorant statement you can make about an RPI mud. I'm also not even going to go into "cliques" because they don't even really exist on RPI muds, you don't know who you're playing with, because there is no OOC communication. Besides the fact that players will do whatever they want behind the scenes, you can't stop this, but your blatant attack on RPI's in general has no evidence anyway.

Actually you don't listen on the internet, you read and comprehend, something I elluded to earlier that you obviously have no ability to do.

Shackled? I wouldn't say I'm shackled, I play MANY different types of muds. But when it comes to the quality of roleplaying, I cannot deny in my experiences that permadeath and RPI muds have been at the top of the ladder, period. I'm not even going to respond to your personal attack, you're obviously a simple Threshold player having a hissy fit over my videos, if you want to talk man to man you can easily e-mail me or PM me.

I would disagree that RP is RP. There are many different types of roleplaying, just like their are many different types of acting. It is not so cut and dry as you make it seem, it not so simple. Perhaps for you simplicity is the key to having fun, so be it. I prefer in-depth plots, characters, and an in-depth world.

Again I'm not going to respond to personal attacks. We're both derailing this thread, as it is about permadeath and how that affects MUDs in general, not about RPI's, even though the both are explicitely linked.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Yes, it does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. We agree, therefore I don't believe you need to make this point in future replies, at least not to me.

The choice of system can, however, create more "issues staying IC." than the other. If I were to trick someone into following me into a dangerous part of town for the purposes of mugging and/or murder, and the victim was killed during the process, them returning to the game world as the same entity would cause an issue that would not be present within a permanent death system.

The issue would be that the player knows my character to be a liar and a murderer. I knows his character to have been deceived and murdered by my character. Whether the murdered character would be allowed to retain IC knowledge of the event would be up to the particular system in place, but regardless of that decision, the OOC temptation exists for that murdered character to remember the actions and intent of his murderer.

The issue comes into play when those two characters interact again. Does the murdered victim allow themselves to be duped and murdered anew? Or will they invent some excuse or play on some coincidental distrust of the murderer that wasn't present in the first scenario? Whether the player succumbs to his/her bias is irrelevant to the fact that the OOC obstacle exists now where it would not exist in a permanent death situation.

I agree that we aren't after complete realism, but that doesn't mean certain aspects that mimic reality or contain aspects of reality aren't welcome or desired. And if you understand the point I am trying to make, then I don't see any reason to quibble over the absurdity of the example.

I would completely disagree with you on this point. It's been my observation in 18 years of playing a permanent death mud that players usually do not end up "doing the same thing they were doing before the death." If this is what you're basing the bulk of your argument upon, which it seems to be, then you might benefit from some more exposure to a game like Armageddon. New characters are -very- new. They aren't simply the same character with a different description and background -- they are often completely different personas with completely different goals. They could have completely different sets of morals, personality traits, likes and dislikes, family relationships, social skills, and values.

I wasn't comparing permadeath games to dying in real life, I was comparing the effect upon one's judgments and actions when they are faced with varied level of consequence. Losing $20 is a consequence. Losing your life is a consequence. How someone reacts to both will result in a completely different range of emotions, decisions, and actions on the part of the participant.

They don't "just start over" -- it's a completely new person. I had a character for 2 RL years on Armageddon somewhat recently, and during that two years they had collected experiences, knowledge of the game's geography, flora, fauna, and political innerworkings, he had amassed a fair amount of martial knowledge and ability, he had a family with children, and he had made many friends and enemies from which he was able to recall memories, both happy and sad, across many IC years of interaction.

The next character had none of these things. None of these experiences. None of these discoveries. None of this information. None of these memories. It's like claiming that after 2 years spent writing a unique novel, it's not much different from just starting over with blank paper. It's -very- different.

I agree that there are unique circumstances inherent in a non-permanent death mud; circumstances that might present issues for the character that would not be found in a permanent death mud. And isn't that the whole point that we've been trying to make? There are issues inherent in each system that are both unique and exclusive to that system of game play -- and one of those unique and exclusive features of a permanent death world is that you don't have to deal with the OOC and IC obstacles that come along with a non-permadeath system.

It creates a unique and exclusive situation that is completely different from the experience you receive elsewhere, and that's the entire point people are trying to make. Some people prefer the experience offered within a permadeath system for the many reasons listed in this entire thread.

We don't have to defend whatever game system we enjoy, we just have to agree that there are differences.

-LoD

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

LoD, good posts. I'm sorry to everyone else on this thread for succumbing to arguing with the lowest common denominator as a 'standard'.

I don't have any issue acknowledging that the systems are different and promote different sorts of RP, and while we might disagree on the significance of the differences, we seem to agree that one feature set over another will not produce 'better' roleplay, but rather different styles.

In a non-perma-death mud, your mugger would of course be a fool to attach his face to a crime. It's inherent in such muds to make sure that those who wish to do such things have the means to do believable dirty deeds, within the context of that world. Perhaps what seems to be missing from your mugging example is support for the RP of the other person. In the scenario you present, basically, the other guy is 'Victim', and one of a string of them, in full knowledge that the player behind the character took time to develop his character, and you're essentially demeaning some of that work by turning him into 'wallet-fodder' like a common mob. Sure, it supports your RP, but it completely negates his, although the scene might make for a good read.

I tend to prefer non-perma-death muds, simply because I've seen enough irresponsible perma-deaths to sate me for a lifetime. Contrary to some experiences, it didn't make me ogle and wow at the complexity and richness of the RP. It made me realize the futility in -some- cases of really pouring time and talent into character development for a character that might not last an hour, and for no better reason than you just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, usually athwart some 'superior' roleplayer, who, in whatever mindset, decided he'd be better off if your character wasn't there. I'm definitely not convinced that simply because you're logged into an RPI that somehow all the players/characters are above treating death in almost cartoonish fashions, so long as it happens to someone else.

This is not a broad slam on RPIs. Some I like. Some are populated with players I'd just as soon not have in my neighborhood. I can almost uniformly admit that those people who are convinced they are the best roleplayers are generally just the loudest. True purists don't need nor want to make a big fuss about how well they RP. They just do it, and let all this OOC nonsense slide over their backs as "NOT RP, SO NOT IMPORTANT". Those folks, I love RPing with, and they can be found in -every- feature set.

Thanks for listening.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Wonderful. This tells me I am discussing an interesting topic with someone who really wants to dive into the issue and rip it apart together with other equally interested folks. I like that. :)

Actually, given that example, the permadeath mud will create more "issues staying IC." Because what if that person you mugged and killed is so bitter, they make a new character, build themselves up, and then go kill you. That is HUGELY OOC. At least in a non permadeath mud, their efforts to seek out revenge are still 100% IC.


Mina and Disillusionist have already made this point, but I think it is such a good one I am going to reiterate it. I think relying on realism can actually be a pretty bad crutch. I mean how much of a stretch is it to RP things that are similar to reality? Not that hard, honestly. The more different a game world is from our RL reality just ramps up the challenge, RP wise.

Then there is the fact that reality really isn't that much fun as a game. If I want to play something realistic, I already have that game: its called Real Life. The graphics are awesome and the gameplay feature variety is limitless. Oh, and the sex is tons better.


But you did indeed compare permadeath to dying in real life. That is explicitly what you did.

And honestly, the possibility of winning $20 (or 2000 gold, or whatever) on a permadeath mud might actually be worth the risk of just dying and remaking a new character. When everyone dies and just starts over, and the point of the game is just roleplay anyway, dying just isn't as big of a deal anymore.

When the penalty is the same across the board, that pretty much normalizes the penalty. As long as permadeath affects everyone equally, the long term impact is not much greater than a penalty death.

Penalties in hockey are far more "severe" than penalties in (American) football. You actually lose a player for a few minutes! But this doesn't mean getting penalties is more "exciting" in hockey. Penalties affect everyone equally, so in the long run the emotional impact is the pretty much the same in either sport.

I have played Armaggeddon, and I have had hundreds of friends and customers that played Armaggeddon and other AFS muds. My own experience, and the experiences they share with me, all indicate that most people pretty much hang out with the same friends and the same cliques no matter how many times they die. I can understand this, as it does kinda make sense. You make friends and you enjoy RPing with certain people, so you gravitate together. It is incredibly commonplace on *ALL* RP oriented games for people who like each other OOC, or who respect each other's RP ability, to plan new character concepts together, and design interesting plot lines for their characters so they are able to play together. I actually don't think this is a bad thing. But it is indeed evidence that permadeath really isn't quite as permanent as one might think.

(I have snipped a section here that analyzes what types of games gain the most excitment from permadeath. I am going to make a new thread for that.)

Also, as I already noted in a previous post, permadeath can actually make conflict oriented RP situations EASIER and LESS TENSE on a permadeath mud, because you know one of two things will happen:

1) You win the conflict. Hooray. Your enemies are vanquished and destroyed, and can never seek revenge against you. You don't have to watch your back, because they can never again torment you.

2) You lose the conflict. Oh well! Reroll! And your new character will never have to suffer the consequences of your RP decisions, you won't have to worry about those same enemies harboring a grudge, and you will never be "shamed" by society for any heretical, blasphemous, treasonous, deceitful, or other "bad" things you did.

When victory is absolute, both sides of the conflict come out of it with a far greater condition of safety. The long term impact of their RP decisions is much less.

I am not saying permadeath is always less exciting. I am well aware and acknowledge that there are a lot of situations where permadeath makes a situation more exciting and tense. But I am simply raising the point that there are as many situations where the opposite is true.

But if the point of the game is to build up those experiences, then it really isn't very different at all. Role play experiences are not linear. As long as you are having role play experiences, you are at the pinnacle of "fun" for that type of game. In a hack-n-slash game, a lot of the fun is linear. If you are bored with the low or mid-level gameplay, then dying permanently or starting over would be a HUGE issue. You would have a lot of grinding ahead of you just to get back to the type of fun you actually want to have (high level or "end game" content). But when the main purpose of the game is role playing, you can get right back to that same type of fun immediately upon re-entry into the game world with a new character. Dying and rerolling is not actually a setback.

Also, that novel writing example actually makes my point. Writing the last chapter of one novel is not terribly different from writing the first chapter of a new one. The discipline is the same. The effort is pretty much the same. You still have to concentrate on word craft and story and characters. This makes me think about the Authors Notes that Piers Anthony puts in the back of a lot of his books. In them, he explains that he generally writes multiple books at the same time. He will be working on the first draft of one book, while also working on the final draft of another, or the beginning of one while finishing the end of another. The different stages of writing the books are not that different. They are the same type of work that require the same type of imagination, creativity, and skill.

I don't write novels, but I do make text games, and that is certainly writing. Building a zone is building a zone. The last room of one zone and the first room of another zone are not significantly different as far as the work experience. I still have to put the same effort, the same thought, and the same creativity into both.


But you have just as many different OOC/IC issues to deal with. Neither system has more or less OOC/IC issues.


I wish that were true, but there is a certain segment of the population that INSISTS permadeath is inherently superior from a role play perspective. I suspect you do not subscribe to this belief, and I definitely appreciate that. I think it makes it possible for us to discuss some of the more interesting aspects of permadeath and non-permadeath.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I give up..

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

There can certainly be an unbalanced agenda when it comes to violent interaction between PC's on a permanent death system. Disappointment is a frequent emotion that accompanies the death of almost any of your characters, especially when that death was at the hands of someone who treads upon your creative work with reckless feet. That said, there are qualities I appreciate behind the random acts of violence that populate these words. I enjoy the lack of security and potentially breakneck pace at which scenes can sometimes fly. I enjoy both the benefits and consequences of a system supporting the immediacy of free will on your environment and its inhabitants.

I played a Vampire (Masquerade) MUSH for about 6 months many years ago, and while I thoroughly enjoyed the RP that I found there -- I didn't happen to meet a known vampire the whole time -- I highly disliked the almost scripted and horribly sluggish encounters where violence and potential death were possible. Imms would descend from on high to mediate between your character and another as they engaged in combat, one action at a time at a crawling pace. While this granted each character an appropriate amount of time to emote and treated both players with respect, the pace and steps felt unnatural to me.

Armageddon's death may very well come swiftly and unexpectedly, with little or no regard for your wishes, but I don't necessarily see that as a complete negative. There can be negative elements associated with the outcome, but the positive experiences generally outweigh the negative -- for me. I'm well aware that others may appreciate other systems that allow them more time, more respect, and more attention to be placed on the scene at hand.

The more dialog produced in this thread, the more I become acutely aware that much of this boils down to personal preference and goals. We all play games for different reasons, not just MUDs, but everything. Some people enjoy the thrill of victory, others are content merely to enjoy the company of others, while other still find reward simply in the physical or mental exercise encompassed by the entire process. I enjoy perma-death MUDs because it feels like a raw and dangerous world -- one in which the accomplishments feel harder won, the survival feels harder earned, and the encounters carry an excitement that I've not found in any non-permadeath game to date.

I understand how those qualities would be offensive or frustrating to other players, but it doesn't lessen my personal enjoyment of that system and the many negatives and positives it carries.

Thanks for the nice reply.

-LoD