Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

>>Once you reach your limit for that period of time, you won't gain anything at all until the timer resets.

DR used to have mindstates and throttling mechanisms for preventing long term experience gain from scripting. We started getting enormous backlash from it, however, and eventually adjusted it.

The skill system still has blocks. Your mind state fills up and won't let any additional experience into the pool, and then you need to go do other things until it drains. But it isn't as oppressive as it once was. The goal is to get players to a position of power quickly where they can enjoy themselves, then slow things down and the grind flows into the HLC.

I suppose these games may lack some of the mechanics that would give griefers an open. Popping an explosive box trap in a room of people, for example. Chaining monsters into an adjacent hunting area and then dying, causing them to engage the person there.

Still, as a professional coder and someone who has played many of these other MUDs, I've never seen a critter AI system that couldn't be scripted with 100% accuracy if your frontend supports complex scripting. Player combat would be too difficult.

Permadeath is hardcore - and that is fine. In general I think DR tries to appeal to a less niche market in the MUD community. I personally liked permadeath being something that was possible if you didn't prepare, had a real bad run of bad luck and had nobody to help you. But investing 15 years in a character just to lose them because of LAG, a bluescreen or a game bug - yeah I wouldn't be able to stomach that!

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

You wouldn't be investing 15 years in a character. You'd be investing a few days, or a few months at the most. Your character is likely to die long before you hit the 1-year mark. And those who have hit the 1-year mark have proven that they can handle that longevity with responsibility and NOT be griefers. If they hadn't proven that by then, the staff would've found a nasty somethingorother to make sure that character ceased to exist - or the rest of the playerbase would've done it so that staff wouldn't have had to. In permadeath games, characters that DO manage to live a long time, do so by NOT being griefers, and playing intelligently, and mostly - roleplaying rather than worrying about their coded skills.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Well sure, if it is that kind of game. I don't find those games that much fun. Reminds me of Diablo style hardcore mode. I prefer to build up my character over the months/years, get to know people and really establish myself. But that is fine, there needs to be games of all types of cater to different playstyles.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Lots of muds police multiplaying. It's easy. A mud doesn't need to be a pay-to-play mud or have full time employees watching everything to do that. Lots of muds try to police scripting, but that's a little harder. A lot of muds, even the heavily staffed ones, don't bother and instead just let people script or try to create systems where scripting just isn't that useful or valuable. Lots of muds police griefing and enforce roleplaying. That's equally easy, especially if the majority of the playerbase is on the same page. (I've actually found the roleplaying and lack of griefers better and more enforced on the non-comercial muds since comercial muds have an incentive to keep everybody around and be a lot looser about restricting behaviors.) Lots of muds try to police out of character communicaiton and trading, but that's harder (without players tattling on each other). It's silly to hint that a pay-to-play, fully staffed mud is somehow necessary or better at enforcing something as simple as multiplaying, or any other types of rules. The actions required to police each of the above (and other things) are the same regardless of whether the players pay to play, with a small difference: It's not that staff members on paid muds are better, more numerous, or more attentive. It's that in a pay to play mud, players don't want to lose the real money they've invested so they're more likely to behave.

So here's something about these forums (and forums everywhere). Forums are for discussions. If somebody posts an advertisement for a mud and says it's awesome, and someone else logs into the mud responsive to that ad and thinks the mud sucks, I would hope that the second individual replies to the thread, responding to everything the first poster said was awesome, and explaining why the mud sucks. And that the discussion continues from there. If someone checks out the mud's website and finds a lack of information or another issue or fact about the mud, that's up for discussion, too. If someone plays or used to play the mud and has something to say, that's fair game. If someone doesn't and has never played and never will, but they still have something to say, that's great, too. Welcome to the internet.

Discussing muds is what this place is all about. It's not about posting a free ad and getting a bunch of new players and income, while calling anybody who makes a counterpoint a troll, flamer, lurker, and griefer who's ruining the mud community and contributing to the downfall of the entire genere of games. If you want an ad, buy some banners on sites around the internet where potential new players might see them. If you want a discusion, post on some forums. Reading through the thread, absolutely nobody is saying, "Your mud sux because it costs money. I don't play it, never have, and don't know anything about it, but it sucks!" There's a lot of semi-intelligent commentary hidden in the cracks. Not all of it, but it's great to see a lively discussion thread versus a single-post promotion. (Plus, a thread like this is way more likely to attract attention and get people to check out your mud's website than all of the generic single-post promo threads around here.)

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

You know.. fine, that is fair. It wasn't my intent to get defensive at the onset of this thread. Having not made the post, I just saw a lot of anger/disgust at the pay to play followed by speculation and constant negativity, and wanted to try and explain things a bit. As Jaz said, he hasn't played in 10 years.. so I felt like those assessments were out of date.

Some of the insults made here weren't even by DR players or people we know - and I wasn't intending for my replies to come off as insults. Asking someone who looks like they got a little too worked up to take a walk is just common sense...

Anyhow - it was surprising to see such hate for pay MUDs, and I've learned quite a bit during the back and forth regarding what some of the participants in this discussion like.

As for the better policing. When a MUD hits a large enough size, like 200+ players, policing does become more difficult. 200 players online might mean 1000 players throughout the week. In DR we give real-time customer support for things like lost items, unconsensted PvP (we use a profile system so people can choose not to participate in PvP if they would rather not), buggy items, spells, abilities and other mechanics. We also have a feedback system that players can go to if they experience account theft, to contest warnings and other problems.

It is entirely possible other MUDs do this well and do it for free. I've not seen it with the half-dozen I've tried over the years and so view it as something unique.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

1. No one has claimed that "everyone buys and sells characters all the live long day." I stated that Simu games are trading card games, because players buy and sell characters and items for real money. I didn't state that "everyone" does it, nor did I state that they do it 'all the live long day." It happens. You know it happens, everyone who's played any of those games for any significant length of time knows it happens. It has ALWAYS happened, even back in the days of GEnie, and to gloss over it and pretend it doesn't change roleplay just makes you look like you can't handle the criticism on this particular point. It -is- an issue, with people who want to roleplay in an interactive game, where your character gets to know other characters, and the *characters* (not the players for chrissakes) form friendships, relationships - ESPECIALLY when you're spending money, on a monthly basis, for the privilege of doing so. And all that buildup, that investment in your roleplay - is spit at, the moment someone sells a character. It is partly why some people left the Simu games - and it is also partly why some people stay. For the money that changes hands between players.

2. Perhaps you haven't "tried them all" as you claim you have in a previous post. Perhaps you haven't tried even a dozen, out of the HUNDREDS of muds out there, that are either free to play, or pay for perks. But there are other games with more than 50 players. In fact, there are some with several hundred players. They aren't always logged on at the same time, but they have active accounts and *none* of them are multis. These would be unique accounts, with one character per account. And their staff works just as hard as your staff does, for the same pay (which is zero). It doesn't cost YOUR game a damned thing to staff your game because your game is staffed by unpaid volunteers. And it doesn't cost the game I play a damned thing either. When you get all hyperbolic over how your game has customer experience (I mean really - who uses that term other than sales managers, anyway?) and other games don't - you insult all those other games. It doesn't do your game any favors, to present yourself in such a negative light by implying that your staff can do for no pay, what other games can do for no pay, better, just because people pay to play your game. It's ridiculous, illogical, and insulting.

Ah now it comes out - you've only tried a half dozen other games in all the years you've been mudding. So really, you are speaking about what other games can, and cannot do, out of sheer ignorance and inexperience. You're basically a mudding noob.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

>>So really, you are speaking about what other games can, and cannot do, out of sheer ignorance and inexperience. You're basically a mudding noob.

Is this not insulting? I've been asking questions and giving opinions. Not stating fact. As I've said several times, part of this discussion was to further my knoweldge of what is out there.

>>Buying and selling

Well a trading card game generally involves buying and selling with high frequency. Sorry if you like your colorful language more than mine :(

And it came out you hadn't played in 10 years and things have gotten much better. I explained as much but didn't call you an idiot over it.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I didn't call you an idiot either. I called your comments the result of ignorance (that is to say - the lack of knowledge about something) and inexperience. I did call you a mudding noob. Which - you are, and it's not an insult, it's just a common term that veteran mudders call people who are new to mudding. Perhaps you would've felt less hurt if I spelled out newbie. But it's still a noob.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Oh cmon...

I never said I tried them all.

I never said other games don't provide customer service. My opinion is this game does it better (considering the size) and gave examples of how and why.

I never said there aren't other games with over 50 players. Having played one with less than 20 logged in at once for years, I understand the appeal. But as others have pointed out - the majority of MUDs have less than 50 people playing.

And if after 20+ years of MUDding and 5 years of developing I'm not at least a journeyman... the definiton of n00b around here is really screwed up :)

Some players here may want what DR has to offer. Myself and others have been trying to explain what that is, but several of you would rather point out why that doesn't appeal to you personally - over and over and over again. I don't want to - am not able to - can't change your mind. That should be perfectly fine! All I'm asking is for a truce.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I really don't see how DR provides better customer service. Honestly in all the muds I've played with 100+ active players, I've never had any issue that wasn't quickly addressed by the staff. I think free muds are equally capable of providing a high level of service to players. Actually the high level of dedication I've seen from some of these people who make no money doing it is rather admirable.

Of course you aren't going to change my mind, and that isn't going to stop me from expressing my opinion. We can all(hopefully) be civil here and generate meaningful discussion. I'm sure plenty of people enjoy DR. Heck maybe I would too, but I'm not going to pay for it.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

You've expressed your opinion quite well. No triple-negatives or walls of text ((just kidding, just kidding!))

This kind of ties into the newbie point Jaz brought up. MUD players come in a variety of skill levels and experienced MUDders take less effort to support than inexperienced MUDders.

My perception (created from my own time playing and from my peers and other players) is DR's staff does an exceptional job of providing in game support for inexperienced MUDders, and does a great job at supporting the population given its size.

It is easy to say that customer support isn't as important as being free or having good mechanics, dedicated staff or more creativity. But I really think that is a primary contributor for why so many have stayed around or keep coming back. After 4 years ofbeing away you log in, check out the forums, hop on the wiki and re-acquaint yourself. Then as you go run off to play: players, mentors, hosts, GMs and more are there to ensure you have a good time.

My wife was an extremely dedicated supporters of a free MUD years ago. After seeing some of the hell she went through - and yes, I realize this was just a single data point - Support probably just runs the gamut like anything else.

If nothing else, this discussion has revealed the #1 challenge facing DR is the cost. We may focus on combat, magic, crafting and events like they are all that matters. But cost matters too! And it isn't how much money, just that any money is required. By that I mean 15$ today is worth about 50% less than it was in the year 2000. But, it is seen as much more due to the industry's direction.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I will admit, I initially supported what was my favorite mud when they started down the road of pay to win. I regret doing that. It changed the mud entirely. What was once an extremely social, gratifying experience, slowly declined after they implemented donation rewards. So my opinion does have a degree of bias.

However, if DR was really so good, the player base would support it strictly upon that. But the whole point here is money. You can't get around this point. You are here because you want or need to generate more revenue. No one says "well my product is good, but I don't really want more money for it". Admit that you are here because of the $$$. After all these years if the mud really wanted to go free to play, it would've.

I am curious, why not get a few of your players in here to state exactly why it is they pay? It would probably be more convincing.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

As a somewhat regular poster here on TMS and a currently subbed player, who can log into the forums I can confirm that the players are asking for the game to be advertised more and obviously they are voting.

I really can't comment on too much anything else. But, I do enjoy the different mechanics of the game, the game play of the Trader's and Moon Mage guild are my favorites. I have yet to dabble in crafting since the type of crafting that I want (alchemy and cooking) are not implemented yet. You cannot "forgot" a crafting skill once learned and since I only have one character, I'm going to wait on that.

Also, I wanted to add. Why is it that DR is a pay to play game all that big of a deal. We have Skotos' game, Threshold and IRE games (even though the last two are free to play, to get a lot of the good stuff you need real life money. That's just my opinion.) I play and support all the games and cycle through all the ones that I listed including DR.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

>>You cannot "forgot" a crafting skill

Not sure if you knew this, but anyone can advance in all 5 crafting skills and earn techniques from it. It is true you cannot re-choose a Hobby or Career currently, but that would not prevent you from excelling at portions of the system... (Hobbies and Careers give bonus techniques and a small skill bonus)

Alchemy (at least the remedy making portion) will be out this month. Been pushing hard to get it done. Then I can focus on poisons, diseases and other alchemy fun :)

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Just want to point it out,

*I* started this thread. I play the game and I love it. I'm glad Juason is posting. He's an active developer for the game, but the posts asking why we're advertising are just over the top.

Firstly, I find it humorous that the screen name providing most of the vitriol in this thread is actually the name of a competing mud. Pot. Kettle. Black. I'll remember the 'loving attention' you showed -my- thread when I find a DA advertisement.

Secondly, I advertised because I want new people to play the game. New names and faces, new ideas, new interactions.. Its sort of why you play Multi User Dungeon games in the first place.. you know.. multi?

Seriously, I don't mind negative comments. All games have their positive and their negative aspects and people deserve to be informed. What I do mind are blatant attempts to throw a competitor under the dirt using the guise of another 'user'. Which is what your posting and continued belligerence in this thread have been.

For anyone new who might be reading this thread, I encourage you to check out yourself. You will find a world of hundreds of people who play because the game is that awesome. When you log in, ask around for Elriic. I'll be happy to show you around and help you get started.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I've played about 20-30 different MUDS in the past 15+ years and I have to say without a doubt Dragonrealms is my absolute favorite.

Its hard to quantify exactly what makes Dragonrealms so special, but I will say the community, the lore, and support are high on the list.

If your a serious MUDer the subscription cost shouldn't be a hindrance, they do offer a free month trial where you can get your feet wet. I'm at a stage in my life where I will happily invest a few bucks a month for what I feel is a clearly premium and superior product. There are a LOT of good MUDS out there right now, but for my money you have to give this one a try.

I'll take it a step further and say that the GENIE CLIENT is also a must, it really opens ups dragonrealms in awesome ways, and yes, you have to purchase that from someone too (not the company that owns dragonrealms).

I read through this thread and look, if you want to play for free, obviously this isn't the MUD for you, but if money isn't really an issue, and your looking for an awesome MUD with excellent RP and really deep lore, you can't find a better game out there. You get what you pay for.

Another thing that always brings me back to Dragonrealms is the unique engagement system. Personally just typing attack attack attack is boring. I like that you have to advance a critter to fight it at melee, or you can shoot it from range.

There are so many reasons that Dragonrealms is amazing, its truly the gold standard. I look at other MUDS as excellent appetizers, but Dragonrealms will always be the fine wine and gourmet meal.

Right now Dragonrealms has the best set of developers in probably its entire lengthy existence, things are changing and being coded that quite frankly you won't find elsewhere. The game is very balanced and constantly tweaked.

Its great.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

You can? I guess I read the wiki wrong. That's actually pretty cool. I can never decide on a trade. It took me ages to decide what guild to join. Anyway, thanks for the response.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

The majority of posters on Top Mud Sites are either developers for, or established players of, existing muds - and most people already consider their current mud to be the "best". Convincing them otherwise is always going to be a hard sell.

What you might find more effective is to go into detail about some of your better features, perhaps even start some discussions about them. For example buuwl mentioned combat - and combat systems are a subject that has been discussed quite a few times over the years, such as , , and .

Discussions about game mechanics can be both useful and interesting, and also help draw attention to existing implementations.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

The combat systems are really nice in DR, and actually have recently been overhauled and rebalanced.

Currently I'd say PvP in Dragonrealms is as balanced as its ever been. I really think having different areas of engagement, melee, ranged, pole and stealth, give a unique dimension to combat not seen in many other MUDs. If you are going to pick a combat heavy guild such as Barbarian, Cleric, War Mage, or Pallie, you are going to find ways to make your skills work and not find yourself up against a guild with a "win" button.

In regards to crafting;

There are some really unique guilds in dragonrealms such as traders, which allow you to run your own shop and sell gear to other players. Traders are also "Lore Prime". Dragonrealms has various skillsets that each guild gets a bonus in. Traders get their bonus in the skillset that has all the crafting skills, so if you LOVE to craft stuff, you can make stuff and sell it to other players in your shop. Another guild thats really nice for crafting is the empath guild. They are also lore prime and have the added benefit of a unique healing system that is unlike most other systems I've ever seen in any other MUD.

Like to play "evil?"

Dragonrealms has the necromancer guild which, through carefully crafted lore, is perfect for those wanting to destroy the world. Your character will be hated by all since your bent on destroying the very fabric of the world, but also will be granted unique access to powers unlike any other guild in the realms.

The thief guild offers a softer guild option for those who want to be a little bad, but not completely ostrasized. Steal what you can, skulk in the shadows, gain access to unique ambush skills and open treasure boxes.

Want to zip around the expansive lands of Elanthia?

You can play the ultimate utility guild, moon mage, and through various spells and powers open powerful portals and transport you and your friends to far away lands.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I googled the engagement system to see how it worked, and found some information and .

The idea seems to be that when you initiate combat you begin at missile range, then you can advance to polearm range, and then melee range. Seems like a reasonable abstraction for one-vs-one, but what happens if Bubba and Boffo both advance to melee range with Buffy, and then Bubba decides to attack Boffo - do they start at melee range (because they were both at melee range with Buffy), or at missile range?

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Bubba would have to disengage Buffy and advance on Boffo to get to melee with Boffo. Buffy however could attack either and face one or the other to have max defense against them.

Bubba could also use a ranged weapon, Dragonrealms has a cool thrown system as well as Crossbow, and Bows, and slings, so maybe Bubba takes out some throwing blades and throws them at Boffo while swinging at Buffy.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Dragonrealms combat also understands facing, flanking and rear engagement. So if Jake and an Orc are at melee, facing each other, another Orc could advance and flank Jake. After a 2nd Orc flanks Jake, the 3rd would engaged from the rear. At any time Jake can FACE NEXT to adjust the engagement positions - though everyone remains at melee with regards to each other. Flanking/Rear attacks get a nice bonus, so must be considered when hunting.

Some of the issues resolved with the 3.0 release were:

* One-hit-critical deaths
* The concept of run-and-gunning - entering a room, shooting a ranged attack, and leaving the room before anyone can respond. We have a combat engagement timer that prevents you from immediately leaving.
* People using RETREAT over and over with a ranged weapon to chain a melee enemy. Retreating adds a stacking offensive penalty, to reduce this abuse.

Still up for improving, are ways to keep enemies at pole range so halberd/pike weapons are more viable, and ways for ranged characters to stay disengaged for longer to get more shots in on an enemy before it hits melee. This is currently accomplished with Crowd Control spells and abilities (stun, knockdown, immobilize, unconsciousness, webbed, etc) and judicious use of retreat.

To tie in with combat, the wound system of DR is dang impressive. 15 wound locations, internal/external wounds, fresh wounds and old wounds (scars), bleeding, burns, disease, poison and acid are all supported. Damage types include slice, puncture, impact, fire, cold and electrical.

Well, I could spend all day explaining it... but its just really deep, rather tactical, and I tend to enjoy combat almost as much as I enjoy crafting.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Strange. Let's try a different scenario:

Step 1: A1 enters a room, sees B1, and attacks him.

Step 2: A2 arrives and decides to join in, attacking B1 as well.

Step 3: B2 arrives, and decides to even the odds - he attacks A1.

At this point A1 and A2 are both attacking B1, while B1 and B2 are both attacking A1.

Presumably A1 could choose to switch his melee attacks to hit B2, as B2 is already hitting him with a melee weapon. But what happens if A2 decides to switch his attacks to B2, to take the pressure off his ally? Are you saying that if A2 switched to attack B2, he'd then suddenly be at missile range?

It would make more sense to calculate relative proximity - if A2 was in melee range of B1, who was in melee range of A1, who was in melee range of B2, then it stands to reason that A2 would be in melee range (or at the very least polearm range) of B2.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I wouldn't bother trying to poke holes in Dragonrealms' combat engine. It's easily far more robust than anything you'll find in the wild of free-to-play MUDs, although it's in the middle of some fine-tuning following an engine update.

I have, for the record, played God Wars 2.X and, yes, Dreagonrealms' combat engine is more advanced.

For an example of the specious situation you've proposed, here's your answer:

R> assess
You assess your combat situation...

You (nimbly balanced) are facing a Buffy (3) at melee range.
A Boffo (1: slightly off balance) is behind you at melee range.
A Bubba (2: very badly balanced) is behind you at melee range.
A Buffy (3: stunned and extremely imbalanced) is facing you at melee range.

I can hit all three of the engaged mobs in 90% of situations. There are some situations where the way the engagement is structured or the difficulty level of opponents prevents me from attacking one of the targets (typically the one(s) behind me). Most characters will have Area of Effect spells or abilities as well, so they can use those in those engagement-restricted situations.

Now that you've made your appeal to the superiority of your game's combat engine, I'd rather get on to why I hate Dragonrealms rather than praising its innovative and deep systems and potential.

I hate Dragonrealms because it is squandered potential writ large. Every time a simple, reasonable proposal for something is put forward to the staff, the response is muted or negative. Problems are allowed to snowball to the point where something breaks. The staff has a tendency to be unprofessionally abrasive, and complaints about staff behavior are met with "well so are you so shut up or I'll ban you."

As an example of how Dragonrealms can take a very basic problem and turn it into a clusterf**k of epic proportions, take the core problem of the game at current: the population split. There are about 50% of the players who have to go to distant zones to hunt because they are "powerful," and 50% that are able to stick around the populated areas and keep them, you know, populated. The players forced to go to the distant zones complain about this situation for literally years -- 12 of them to be exact -- and the staff response is varying shades of "shut up." Sometimes couched nicely, sometimes with empty promises, but generally it's a "shut up about this" response. The response leaned upon for about five years towards the end was it was a combat engine limitation (with no real answer to the question of "why don't you just import mob X to zone Y and be Z with it?" forthcoming). So the combat engine gets updated, mostly through the hard work of Juason who is posting here. New mobs are released. People shrug and go "Okay, whatever."

All of these new mobs are inferior to the existing mobs in the distant zones in their risk vs reward payout. Empirically worse. In the way that, for all you Diku-derived MUD players might be familiar with, it's as if you have two equal-level mobs, but one gave 110 xp and the other 100 xp, and the one giving 100 xp had a better lower and upper damage range and to-hit modifier and had a lower drop frequency than the 110 xp mob. That sort of empirically worse. When, with minimal fuss (35 rooms away there was a desert zone perfect for the desert zone mobs that continue to draw the high level characters), they could have simply imported the existing solution, written it off however the heck they wanted to (events are sort of an also-ran for high level characters, which is another problem unto itself -- when you remove players from role-playing environments for so long for training purposes, why would they go back to role-playing again?).

So yes, DR's combat system is the best you're ever going to find in a text-based game. That's not hyperbole or even an endorsement of the game. The reality is that it comes with even more baggage and poor decision-making than God Wars ever will, and I include that whole debacle with the guy who claims he invented Facebook (Twitter?) claiming to have written your code or whatever.

I've done MUDs from the design and development side as well (SWR and Shadows of the Empire, specifically). I'm not just blowing smoke up Simutronics' collective rears. I know that there's "a lot that you don't understand" going on behind the scenes, although I would never couch it like that. I realize that there are headaches with 100 players online that there aren't with 10 players online. I just don't accept excuses when the solutions aren't that hard to figure out, let alone implement.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I'm not poking holes in anything, I'm simply discussing it, as I find it interesting to see alternative approaches, particularly for mechanics (such as weapon reach) which aren't common. These are discussion forums, they're intended for discussions.

As I stated on the thread:

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Yeah.. we are painfully aware of the need for more high level hunting in the mainlands. The recent addition of Lava Drakes and Cabalists were to assist in this area - but more is being done and will result in reasonably accessible hunting for all skill levels.

Originally I believe it was a design decision, hence the mixed responses over the years. We have this huge game so why not force people to explore it? That sounds nice... but as you pointed out, it can be a huge negative for those folks wanting to RP more than explore.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Oh no, Dragonrealms' is objectively the best. Tastes don't matter, you can make virtually any approach to combat that might suit your tastes work for you.

If you don't believe me, sign up for a trial and see for yourself.

A fantastic example.

I didn't say "more high level hunting on the mainland." I said "take X and move them to Y." Since I see no reason to mince words, let me throw it all out for you: take desert armadillos and put them in the blasted plains beyond the Gate of Souls near the Temple of Ushnish 35 rooms away from Dirge. Nothing more, nothing less.

You could do with deleting provinces and the rooms that are a part of them and moving their creatures into Zoluren and Ilithi too, as those are the only two provinces worth spending time in if you're seeking serious role-play. Straight delete 'em. When there were thousands of players logged in over the course of a weekend that much space to spread out made sense. Now it just reduces role-playing opportunities.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

I've seen people proudly claim exactly the same thing about dozens of other muds over the years, adamant that their particular mud is the "best". It's rather quaint to see people still doing it, but I'm afraid such claims are very unlikely to be taken seriously. I think it would be more constructive (and interesting) to discuss the actual features that the mud offers.

Re: Join Dragonrealms today!
 

Oh no, the challenge is laid bare. There's a free trial. Sign up, test it out for yourself.

I don't make the observation lightly. I have played virtually every major MU* derivation and a handful of "custom code" games as well. I even wrote my own combat engine that could handle range differences, facing, multi-engagement, and terrain (for the purposes of starship combat).

Dragonrealms' combat engine remains the best I have ever seen and the only unequivocally "good" thing about the game. There have been several attempts over the years to "improve" it (which is code for ruin) and they've all failed. It remains impressively robust despite the best efforts of Simutronics' staff.

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It is only the "best" if you like that particular type of combat system. I've played the type of combat where you advance and retreat - and frankly, I don't like it at all. I wouldn't like the best one, or the worst one. I don't like that system of combat, period.

I wouldn't say the game I play has the best combat system either, for the same reason. The combat system *I* like, isn't necessarily the kind of combat system someone else likes. And so for that person, the kind in the game I play, wouldn't be the best. It wouldn't even be mediocre.

The things that I like about the CS in the game I play, don't exist in Dragonrealms combat. But the things that DR features that attracts people who play it, don't exist in the game I play. Neither is the "Best" and neither is the "worst." They're just different.

It's like asking which is best: toast with cinnamon and sugar, or Ibanez guitars? The answer is: it depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for something to eat, then the toast wins. If you're looking for some musical distraction, I'd go for the Ibanez.

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This is an incomplete comparison. A fallacy.

If you don't want to deal with all of the complicated aspects of Dragonrealms' combat systems, there are plenty of ways to play it "dumbed down," which outside of PvP works perfectly fine. If you want to PvP you're going to need to at least be aware of the options the system presents, even if you're choosing not to utilize them yourself.

But you can certainly play the game from start to finish typing ATTACK over and over. You don't even have to utilize the combat system at all if that's not your thing. Two classes have no combat requirements at all.

If you have some aversion to typing ATTACK repeatedly, you can easily set up a macro or a script to do that for you.

As I've said, the game itself is deeply flawed. But, with apologies to Ms. Turner, the combat engine is simply the best.

This is not me trying to be "cute," nor is it "quaint" of me. You have the means with which to verify the assertion for yourselves. I simply wanted to cut off KaVir's self-aggrandizing before it could begin.

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Heh, let's keep it civil. I can understand where Jaz is coming from. Some MUDders may not want any combat system in their "perfect idea" of a MUD.

It is true, however, that we have tried to provide tools for keeping combat simple. You can toggle the messaging for various amounts of detail and engagement is automatic when you attack something not within range. As Ardent mentioned, you can ignore the 25-something attack verbs and just use ATTACK, and the system decides what would be a reasonably-good sets of combos to use with that given weapon, and cycles through them.

The goal has been to keep the complexity that many people seem to like, yet provide enough flexibility and novice-friendly tools so it has wider appeal.

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Precisely, what we're seeing is a perfect example of the Dilbert "" fallacy. Sadly such a view is not that uncommon, but it does make it difficult to have a useful discussion about the actual merits of a particular system.

I do actually like the underlying concept (although not the abstraction). However it's interesting you should mention your dislike, because I've been wondering why it is that more muds don't implement something similar. An engagement system would be pretty quick and easy to add, so it's certainly not about complexity.

I wondered if it might be historical - most muds with balance-based combat draw their inspiration directly or indirectly from Avalon, and it's not uncommon for people to without really considering the alternatives. But it could also be that people who like it are already playing DragonRealms, while those who don't are playing elsewhere.

There's quite a lot of variation out there, and it's certainly interesting to compare the pros and cons of different approaches, as well as the impact of their subsystems. That reminds me actually, I keep meaning to have a look at how different muds implement fighting formations.

Catering to both extremes can be difficult to balance, as . But it's definitely a good goal.

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Thanks KaVir for the input. For me, well I started out on GemStone. It didn't have an "engagement system" where you could advance/retreat, but basically - the critter would auto-attack you, over and over again - and you had to type "att critter" over and over again with each shot. Or 'prep 702; cast critter' to bloodburst it (I played a sorc, heh). Sure, you could type macros, but the point is, it was up to the player to ensure that the text went from buffer to game, over and over again, making sure not to get interrupted by the game-imposed delay between hits. You could disengage, but the critter would continue wailing on you. You could flee, but the critter would chase you in most cases.

Then I played Inferno, which did have an engagement system. You'd engage, then advance to whichever range was appropriate for your attack style. If close-range, you'd have to advance a few times, or you and the critter would each be advancing til it was fighting time. But - if the critter was designed to fight only at close range, and you were using a polearm, you'd have to retreat when it was advancing. And you could only retreat so far, until the system said you were already up against the wall and can't retreat any further. A lot of the combat consisted of getting you to the right range. And THEN you could attack. And then, it was the same system as the GS system - you have to either type att critter over and over, or create and run a script to do it for you. The responsibility was client-side on your part, and the critter had a built-in script to do it automatically. Even more difficult and frustrating - if you were already as far away as the code allowed you to be, but it wasn't far away enough to flee or disengage, you were stuck in combat until the fight was over. You could only "retreat" so many times before the code said you couldn't retreat anymore, and you couldn't disengage until you were far enough away.

Then I played Armageddon, which is a diku-based system. It's automated. You type attack critter, and at that point, you are free to emote while your character automatically attempts to kill the critter. There are special attacks, such as kick, bash, disarm, etc. etc. - but if it's just close-range melee combat, you don't have to "do" anything, and that leaves you free to type in emotes, and wishes, and yell that you're hurt, or shout to your friend to help, or order your minion to stand down while you rescue him from doom, or whatever else.

At first, I hated it. I was way too used to being in full control of my character's every movement. But eventually, I realized, that it also meant that I was -required- to be in full control of my character's every movement. It was hard to ROLEPLAY through the combat, because if I took the time to say "Hey help please!" it was one more "att critter" that didn't happen - and that was one more "critter attacks me" that I didn't attempt to parry.

Trying to actually roleplay when you were in a challenging situation, was impossible. If I tried to interrupt the script with emotes, it would auto-shutoff the script. I could set up macros so I didn't have to type everything out, but it -still- meant that I had to take that time to hit the alt-K, which meant no time to also type "say Hey help me here".

In Armageddon, because the actual "att critter" part of it was automated, I was free to emote my brains out, and could create actual "scenes" with myself and the critter and whatever crew we were with. It seemed to flow better.

But - I know, because I had done it for years, that not everyone likes that system. And that's okay. Some people just really prefer the required control over their character's movements, and some people prefer to let the game code do all the mechanics work. And there are some folks (the MUSH crowd) who prefer not to have ANY mechanics in combat, and would rather emote it all out, in turn-based situations.

I've tried a few MUSHes too, but I just don't care for the long paragraphs of emotes. I like the faster paced scenes (although the Arm combat is still too fast for me, but I can work around it as long as there's just me and a critter and not a group).

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Now that's interesting, because I believe Inferno was mainly inspired by Avalon. I wonder if they got the idea from DragonRealms, or if they came up with it independently?

Personally I prefer manual control, although if your only option is typing "attack" over and over then IMO you'd actually be better off automating it. Most manual combat systems I've seen do offer various different options to choose from, however, and DragonRealms seems to have several different maneuvers for controlling your actions. They don't appear to differentiate between individual weapon types (in terms of attack options), but there are at least separate commands for unarmed combat, and I really like the idea of supporting grappling moves. Wasn't there once a design discussion about grappling?

Yeah, some of them can be pretty opinionated about narrated combat being better than any form of hardcoded combat. I've also seen people combine the concepts, so that you emote your action and the code performs an appropriate attack, although like any other system it has its pros and cons.

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I never played Avalon and I'm not familiar with it, so I can't say for sure. But I do know that it was influenced by Legends of Future Past, and Dragonrealms, and one of the owners started out playing OrbWars, which was Simutronics' first game before Gemstone was created. The game itself was written with LambdaMOO as the base, and modified with I -believe- C#. There's another member of this forum who can say for sure, the aforementioned OrbWars fan, but he'd speak for himself if he wants to wax nostalgic on the subject (I don't believe he has "outted" himself here and it's not my place to do that out of respect).

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It's a little mind-boggling that somebody can't understand that subjective opinions might vary. I played a mud where every room had a coordinate system, and you moved around to position yourself while you fired ranged attacks, got into melee range, and fired off all kinds of specials (knockback, stun, etc.) to keep the enemy where you wanted him, while executing all kinds of special movement abilities to get where you wanted to be faster before your opponent's moves could inconvenience you. I've played countless muds where you just type "kill X" and stand there. Neither one is "better." Sure, one took longer to code and offers more options, but countless players refused to try that first mud or quit playing because they preferred a more normal-ish system.

More features and options is not necessarily better. Some people don't like and just plain don't want a mud where they have to learn all of the different combat options and strategies. Even if they don't have to use them and can play a dumbed down version, other people who take advantage of all of the mud's features will have a strong advantage over them, not just in PK, but in more efficient and effective grinding. People definitely don't want to play a mud where they'll be less effective than others.

I have yet to see a mud that requires you to manually keep track of your character's bladder and take a pee every few hours, depending on how much you drink. Some things, your character just takes care of on his own when you're not looking, and the game leaves those things to behind the scenes assumptions, and to your imagination. In a simple combat mud, it's just assumed that battling creatures jockey for position and move around a lot, but the player doesn't have to manually do all of that. The mud engine just rolls dice and handles combat, and players who don't care for an elaborate combat system are fine with that. Players who want a strategic and very detailed combat system where they can control more things and try everything hate it. More options isn't better, just different, depending on player preferences.

For example, I think it's absolutely stupid to proclaim, "There's nowhere convenient and close by for high level characters to go kill high reward mobs. They have to travel to the far reaches of the world to get those higher rewards, and that makes the game harder and less convenient! The mud administration is stupid for not moving the mobs everyone likes to kill from an established area to a close by, more convenient area so everyone can have an easy time advancing while staying in the same place." I'd strongly prefer a mud where you absolutely have to explore and go to the edges of the world to get good rewards, and where it's hard to max out your level, get piles of money, and get the best gear. It sounds stupid to me to transplant mobs randomly from place A to place B just to make grinding easier. But that's my preference, while some players prefer a mud where advancement is much more convenient. Is a huge world where you have to travel and explore to advance effectively "better" just because there are more features and things to try? Some people prefer a more simple area and advancement system.

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I don't know about the original creators but the guy who ran Inferno had . It looks like Malifax is still active so maybe he will pop in and shed some light on it.

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Interesting, thanks! It came up when I was fleshing out mud trees on the MUD Wiki, but it's rather difficult to find reliable information about many of the earlier games.

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>>For example, I think it's absolutely stupid to proclaim, "There's nowhere convenient and close by for high level characters to go kill high reward mobs.

>>The mud administration is stupid for

Let's not get confused here. DR has hundreds of hunting areas close to the starter cities. The problem is these areas did not get updated as quickly as the "new" areas (which also happen to be further away) to contain high level content. In 2009 the experience model changed, resulting in players advancing to the higher levels quicker - and the hunting options did not change quickly enough to accommodate this.

Even worse - Combat prevented higher level hunting mobs from working correctly, which scared people off from developing them.

Before 3.0, the combat system broke down past circle 150 due to integer overflows (remember, this was designed back in 1996... and the highest circle was 30, now it is 200). Now with 3.0 everything scales above and beyond circle 200 just fine and we've been focusing on updating these areas.

So whatever bad decisions made in the past are being remedied. Then again, I doubt anyone starting off in DR today would even run into this problem in the next few years! No, you'd actually have more hunting options than probably makes sense :p

>> Engagement

Back in the 90s, a good engagement system was damn hard to write. Memory and CPU speeds being what they were... I'm always amazed at what was done with so little 15 years ago!

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I agree.

If you have no interest in paying for a MUD, and never will, I think that position makes complete sense. If what I am about to describe doesn't comport with your experience or what you want, that is also reasonable. But I will describe why paying for DR is worthwhile to me.

What I enjoy most about Dragonrealms is the depth of the game and the freedom players have to engage - or disengage - with it. For example, among the libraries and towers of the game are books (written by the staff and players) that detail the rich history of the peoples and the cultures of the world. Most of these are consolidated on the dragonrealms wiki: Some guilds, like Moon Mages, go so far as to allow (but not require) players to identify with specific sects that have their own ideology, receive (largely cosmetic) boons, and access specialized merchants/tools. Players have become game-recognized officials of the provinces. Renowned crafters are memorialized in their halls while higher-level traders operate stores in the major cities. Politics and intrigue exist. and players may choose to incur the wrath of provincial leaders (played by the staff). These players may defiantly raise Cain or seek shelter in another territory, or both. And aside from in-game structure, players constantly fashion their own stories using the established lore and goods as a foundation.

I also like that I do not have to do any of that. I love to roleplay, but probably spend a good part of my time solo-hunting and training skills. I can strive to min-max (the weapon and armorsmiths, with their custom mixes of metals, know all about this) and I love the skill system: the more my characters do something, the better they are at it. With few exceptions (some guilds do not use magic and some skills are guild-only abilities), my characters CAN learn and do anything, although it's easier for a Barbarian to become a weaponmaster than a trader. Will I ever catch up to the person who's played for a decade longer? Probably not. But relatively shortly I can start hunting creatures who drop elusive treasure maps that lead to unique treasure. I can create goods and provide services that ARE marketable without being the best in the game.

14.95 a month is not a trivial amount and Dragonrealms does not have a monopoly on what I described, but I personally haven't found an alternative. I never felt like I was able to customize my experience as I much as I do in Dragonrealms. So I encourage folks to try out the free trial and see if they like it. There are numerous mentoring and social events a week and as evidenced by the release of new crafting systems, creatures, and events the world is dynamic.

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I am quite capable of understanding other people can have opinions based on their particular perspectives.

I am just as capable of dismissing them as objectively wrong based upon the criterion inherent to a "best" assertion; do you want the most options possible? Then Dragonrealms is the best. Do you want the lowest learning curve possible? Then Dragonrealms is the best. Do you want the highest learning curve possible? Then, paradoxically, Dragonrealms is also the best. Do you not want to engage in combat at all but for some reason desire that there be a combat system? Then Dragonrealms is the best. Do you want a system that handles melee weapons, polearms, and ranged weapons with enough granularity that choice(s) between them matter? Then Dragonrealms is the best. Do you want a game that forces you to learn an entirely new "combat style" to utilize different kinds of weapons? Then Dragonrealms is the best.

Anecdotes about what one person does or does not like are about as useful to an objective standard as shoes are to a someone without feet.

Pick something you would consider to be an objective standard for constituting a good combat system. Get four people to agree with you that it is a good, objective standard. It is true of Dragonrealms' combat system.

By the objective standards of a better combat system -- perhaps excluding enjoyability -- those Dragonball MUDs have good combat systems. But I would agree that they're not at all fun to play. You'll note I don't make any claim as to whether Dragonrealms as an entire construct is fun to play. But the combat engine is certainly among the most fun parts of the game, particularly for a new player.

This is the fundamental hiccup I hit upon in Shadows of the Empire. Once there was an element of player skill involved in combat -- both on the ground and in vehicles -- I got complaints about the unfairness of it.

At the time I was a teenager and dismissed this as whatever, but as an adult I can recognize the inherent distrust of any system that has advantages set aside for players with particular skills: reflexes, knowledge, lack of mores, so forth.

If fairness is important to you, then Dragonrealms is certainly not the MUD for you. There is nothing fair or equitable about the way things are done with the possible exception of how poorly you will be treated for making suggestions on how to improve fairness and equability. Players who have been playing for years will be objectively better at just about everything than you are and will have characters that literally demonstrate that in textual form.

I think Simutronics erred grievously by not capping the game at 150th and 1000 ranks but they're trying to be everything for everyone. The recent churn amongst experienced players is certainly demonstrative of the impact a simple staff misjudgment of player desires can be, and actually asking directly what players want is a trick the staff has only learned in the last few years, and only engages in in fits and starts.

It is if you understand the social dynamics of the game, wherein role-playing is clustered around areas you might recognize as having a facade similar to quest hubs in graphical MMOs. None of which was within reasonable proximity of high level hunting until about 2009, and even then it is still not really solved.

Which is fine. You're also not one of Simutronics' paying customers, so your opinion is worth exactly nothing. What's problematic is that as a paying customer of Simutronics, your opinion would also be worth exactly nothing.

If you define standards to which you objectively rank game designs, "forcing players to choose between role-playing or numerical character progression" would rank somewhere between "force players to eat and drink and undertake textual bowel movements" and "make logging on successfully a RNG call with less than 20% chance of success" on the "good ideas" list.

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In the muds I play/played, you take your friends with you when you set off to the edge of the world, and roleplay with them the whole time you're out there, then hike home to tell the story to everyone else. Exploring, advancing, grinding, etc. can be roleplayed to some degree, and roleplaying shouldn't be limited to the central hub room. It sounds to me like the problem with Dragonrealms is more of a player culture issue than a design issue. Lots of mudders actually want getting to the rich mob with the good drop rate and good exp rate and the good gear to be hard and time consuming. They don't want that mob 30 rooms from the central hub just to encourage the entire playerbase to camp out at the hub between runs.

"Hi. I've heard of you. You're that awesomely powerful warrior. It's great seeing you at this central gathering area!"

<checks watch> "Uh...yeah. That monster I need to kill every 6 minutes is probably back now. I need to go. Before someone else gets there first."

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I currently do not play Dragon Realms but I have played it on and off for the past 17-18 years. I recently have been considering going back again. It is the ONLY mud that I would consider paying money for. The game mechanics are far superior to most all other muds that I have played and I have played dozens over the years. Your paid subscription allows for the game to continue to put out a product that is a higher quality than most any other mud on the market.

Unless things have changed since I last played the issue I have is the comment about RP. There is not a strong RP presence in DR. I personally prefer RP and I have to seek out small pockets of players that actually do RP consistently in DR.

With that being said, I will someday no doubt log back in and play DR once again because it truly is a fantastic game. If paying for a mud is not your cup of tea then I can understand but it truly does make it higher quality than your typical mud. I challenge you to give me an unbiased list of muds that are just as good that I can play for free. I think if you're honest with yourself you'll be hard pressed to do so.

Edit to add: The learning curve in DR can be steep and that may be a turn off to some people. I was fortunate to have a friend help me along when I first started.

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>>Which is fine. You're also not one of Simutronics' paying customers, so your opinion is worth exactly nothing. What's problematic is that as a paying customer of Simutronics, your opinion would also be worth exactly nothing.

Well that really hurts :confused: We wouldn't be here discussing the game with such fervor and taking feedback if we didn't care... The whole 3.0 conversion was in response to player feedback regarding how unbalanced certain areas of the game are. Things aren't perfect yet, but it is a goal we are striving for.

>>Uh...yeah. That monster I need to kill every 6 minutes is probably back now. I need to go. Before someone else gets there first."

Unique mobs with rare drops that spawn on timers and are fought over by players in the most unrealistic ways - do not exist in DR.

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It is not intended to be a personal insult. As I've said, learning to listen is a new trick the staff has learned and hasn't yet mastered.

But even with that understanding there are long-standing and -- from my perspective reasonable -- requests that simply get ignored. Whether that is inertia or intentional is difficult to gauge because it is never addressed. I am not referring to coding-intensive tasks here as I completely understand that there are half as many coders as would ideally be on staff right now.

This is important, because it speaks to why we are so perplexed and distressed by the refusal to simply figure out a way to import the best solution. For years the staff answered inconsistently and nonsensically, particularly for the folks who had seen the code. The limitations they spoke of weren't actually there, or in the case of a lateral move of statistics and mechanics from one spawn location to another wouldn't change perceptibly for players. We came to understand after a while that the product manager actually wanted this situation -- this situation that was driving players away from the game year after year in a way the "lure" of World of Warcraft could not. This was rendered somewhat comical when we discovered that this product manager spends much of his time playing World of Warcraft.

But the issue was actually spoken to directly by the staff member who owns the problem (and not even a day ago) and while I recognize her frustration ("it feels like developing new creatures is a waste of time") I have to shrug and admit that, from a player perspective, that is true. Probably painful to be told -- and thus unacceptable discussion material for the Simutronics forum -- but incredibly relevant to how development time and effort is expended.

Particularly when you are trying to develop for a skill range that is already well-served and already has choices that cover the entire spectrum. It was particularly egregious and roundly booed when yet another hunting hub for 100-250 ranks was developed and released. In Diku-alike terms, this is another quest hub for 20-30th level characters. When there are already about a dozen and you are expected to be 100th in a week.

To put this in perspective, the game is -- in theory -- built to support a 50/50 time split between training for experience and role-playing. My experience is more 75/25 and when I did not have means of simplifying the trip back from the far reaches of the realms about 99/1 and the 1 was more "accidentally ran into someone who got lost trying to get to somewhere they role-play and had to be in character while going to the bank to deposit these 60000000000 coins I don't give a crap about" than any intentional seeking-out of role-playing.

When your characters can still train in and around the populated areas that 50/50 split is less "fond memory/pipedream" and more truthful and accurate.

There was a period of time -- when the only place to train for virtually everyone was on the far fringes of the game -- that there were large populations that supported that kind of time split even at the far fringes. But the game world has grown significantly since then, the player population has declined significantly since then, and it seems a statistical impossibility these days, even with half of the population 140th and above. A lot of this has to do with how Simutronics staff half-asses solutions to problems. Those original problems -- the relative distance of good hunting from the main town (there was only one back then) -- were addressed pretty rapidly when the population de-camped from the main town. But once the exodus fell to a trickle and then reversed flow they washed their hands of the "problem" and declared everything hunky-dory. Literally cutting the player population in half for all intents and purposes was deemed the best solution.

In this Simutronics design philosophy, accountability, and follow-through reads somewhat like "Here, hold my beer and watch this" mashed up with "There, did I fix it?" writ into game development, with the occasional accidental toe-shattering shotgun discharge to make the stereotype come to life. The sort of thing that in non-commercial MUD development you laugh off as monkeyshines but seems wholly unacceptable from a company you're paying for a product. Their customer service -- not counting the folks who answer the phones at their main office -- is particularly, spectacularly awful. As is their mentorship program. This is defended as staff being charged with maintaining the environment for all players (so being a complete dick to a paying customer is acceptable behavior) and that their mentorship program is all-volunteer and player run. (It is volunteered for and run by players who, as a whole, have not actually played the game in about five years and routinely deliver bad information to new, impressionable players or recent returnees who are trying to figure out the whole actually playing thing again.)

The bottom line is if I were not invested, I would not be paying. In this, I am part of the largest demographic they have left.

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>>Which is fine. You're also not one of Simutronics' paying customers, so your opinion is worth exactly nothing. What's problematic is that as a paying customer of Simutronics, your opinion would also be worth exactly nothing.>>>

I don't think that's a fair statement, as a whole I think simu has been doing a pretty solid job listening and trying to make changes in various aspects of the game. I think the old "simu doesn't care mentality" has been thoroughly debunked in the past two years.

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Yes, I hope nobody misunderstands me here. The current staff has shown great improvement in their willingness and ability to listen to players regarding development and event direction. They haven't mastered it, yet, and sometimes good suggestions and questions go unacknowledged. They may actually get there, too, unless the older staff members' bad habits rub off on them.

But that still doesn't excuse a decade of ill behavior.

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I don't want to get into yet another conflict :sigh: hate walls o' text. But you are taking staff replies a little out of context and failing to acknowledge the fact you have 3 GMs responding and working towards a resolution to these issues (Raesh, Melete and myself here).

As I've said before, the high level critter ladder is something we are working to improve and will not be a problem for anyone starting off in the game for at least a year, maybe 2. The staff today can only work to do the best they can do and hope the sins of those past don't haunt us forever...

>>Player circles

Well, as of right now with 310 people logged in only 50 are circle 150+ and 90 are below circle 50. This certainly changes as hundreds of players swap in and out over the course of the week, but the player base is more than just a bunch of capped charater high-five-ing each other :P

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I am not in the business of lying, so I will allow that it was exactly 42% of players that were 141st circle or higher at the time of the last snapshot that was published.

Nor are "capped" characters even really in the discussion. There are what? Six characters past 180th? A few of which recently quit (or "took breaks")? This is endemic of the Simu situation, where the people who press the upper echelon get moved goalposts and platitudes, developmental delays and virtually anything but what they're asking for because there is an abject fear at Simu that when people achieve their goals -- hit skillcaps -- they will quit. For good reason: it already happened to the instance that allowed AFK botting. But this is never admitted to. Failure is never admitted to. It happened with the whole F2P/P2W discussion. No admission that it was impossible because the company would be bankrupt in a weekend. Just silence. Deafening, telling silence.

This isn't on you, nor is it on Raesh, Melete, or even Armifer. All of the current crop of developers are great. This is on the company and the parasites that have squandered the potential.

Someone asked why they're looking for new players. The ugly truth is that without new suckers they will slowly become insolvent as people cancel credit cards that are paying for accounts they forgot about.