Ever notice how hack and slashers can't discern between RPI and other roleplaying games?

Just because there is an element of roleplay, it does not make it an RPI.

There is a huge difference, something hack and slash players cannot separate for some reason. I think it is really because they realize that as far as true RP is concerned, their hack and slash games fall short in that aspect.

Basically the difference between RP and RPI.ntensive which some cannot seem to grasp.

OK, you've got a post about how dense hack and slashers are, yet you don't actually attempt to define the difference that they don't understand.

Personally, it seems to me that the RPers don't understand the difference either, because nobody here can give a consistent definition that others agree with.

The fact of the matter is that there's no one accepted authority for these definitions, and therefore they're really rather open to personal opinion. I play on a MUSH that has coded systems for crafting, travel, and a combat system that mingles skill rolls with admin oversight. It has only three OOC channels: one for newbie helping, one for the distracting chatter that was piling up on the newbie channel, and one that was a reward to House Lomasa for winning a recent contest. It also has an operating OOC command for talking to others in a room. By various definitions given here so far, that might or might not make it a MUSH, an RPI MUD, or an RP Enforced MUD.

Personally, I suggest the best solution is just to list the features you want when looking for a game.

Is the presence of OOC channels a negative for you?
Do you want a combat system that resolves combat without requiring any admin oversight?
Do you want to be killing people frequently, and should they stay dead when killed?

Elitism amongst rpi players -

Some posters have expressed that the role-play enthusiasts seem to be condesending to those who don't role-play. Which made me question myself. Do we do that? Why would we do that?

I don't think it is us saying we're better than you.

I think what we're saying is, come try it, but don't come and not rp. I think we're afraid of non-rpers coming and not rping on our games. What sounds like elitism is really people saying, "We're trying to make something here. Stay way if you're planning to topple our sandcastles. Thanks."
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I was one of the people saying something like that, and if you're referring to my post(s), you're misrepresenting me slightly.  (Not intentionally, I'm sure.)

I'm not saying there condescension from role-playing enthusiasts.

I'm saying there is often condescension from RPI players specifically, especially to enthusiasts of other forms of roleplay that are not the so-called RPI.  Often doesn't mean all RPI players, but it's certainly enough of them that post on these forums to merit a notice of the pattern.

If you'd like an example of what I'm talking about, please see Dunestalker's post just a few above this one.

I mostly see non-RPIers sitting around and whining that their muds aren't RPIs when it's an acronym that is used to define a completely different type of mud. There is no elitism. Nobody said RPIs are better, they are different. Calling that elitism is like accusing ice-cream of elitism for tasting different than cake. Bad ice-cream! How dare you! Everything should taste the same so we can have a borring little world with no variety! I'm sorry, but that's not how it is. There are RPIs, there are RP muds, there are hack-and-slash muds, there are MUSHES, there are lots of types, people can choose which ones they want to play, stop trying to pretend to be different than they are(which only gains dissadisfied players who leave once they quickly figure it out) and be happy in what they are and try to gain players that like playing that type of mud.

I gave up playing the "Is it or isn't it an RPI" game a long time ago. It's like JOSHUA playing global thermonuclear war with itself in War Games. The only way to win is not to play. I've embraced the MUSHiness of the games I run, but I'm happy to consider them homes for immersive and intensive roleplaying without trying to squeeze them into the RPI label.

Exactly. It's not an elitist attitude as much as it's: "Get your definition straight."

Be proud of what you are no matter what others say and announce it to the world. Maybe it is those of us who realize it that end up coming off like we're elitists.

No dammit, it's the type of game I like and I don't like it when others can't get the the typing correct or use the typing in some odd form of misrepresentation.

If your game is a hack and slash, then ****ing call it that. It's not any lesser of a game to those that like them, it's just not my cup of tea and it ticks me off when I see a game represented as such and go and find out it's not.

It'd be like someone calling a FPS game an RPG or a Puzzle game.

If I'm the type that likes Puzzle games and I go buy a game that labels itself a Puzzle game, that's what I expect to get...not an RPG or FPS game.

I'm not entirely sure that I'm being clear in what I mean here, but it's the best example that I can think of offhand and I'm a little intoxicated.

So what do you call a mud where there is intensive roleplay, as opposed to occaisional roleplay, but where there is not permadeath

and what do you call a mud that is all things as defined in the previous posts definitions of an RPI but perhaps has an ooc channel so that players can communicate about non game related things

BARPIBWAE?

Basically Almost RolePlay Intensive But With Added Enhancements

or maybe its an ARPIBJNQTY

Almost RolePlay Intensive But Just Not Quite There Yet

I bet Ickywhatshisname is starting to regret ever mentioning those three letters in his/her initial post. Btw hope you did manage to find a game you like, can be extremely hard finding just the right one.

Tell me how can your roleplay be intense when you have no fear of dying with the character you are roleplaying, it's an out-of-character influence that WILL influence your roleplay. How would an actor feel if he was playing the role of a humble warrior, (for example William Wallace in braveheart) but knew he could not die? How could he portray the role then? Would it be as believable if William Wallace truly could shoot fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse? Of course not. That's why there are certain elements that make an RPI an RPI, these elements are intense, without permadeath you cannot call yourself RPI hence the word intense, you are just a roleplaying mud.

You said something about an OOC channel too? Well that's the same deal, anyone who wants to use an OOC channel instead of staying in character at all times is not intense enough for an RPI. It's simple as that, you want to talk about non-game related things visit the mud forum or go to IRC, I made an IRC channel way back for Armageddon and now it's pretty commonplace, even though I rarely visit it now, why have channels in a roleplaying mud? It detracts from the virtual game world, and the believability that you are in a different realm, playing out this novel. Anyways, I have played lots of muds in my time and RPI is the pinnacle, even though it may sound elitist, do whatever is entertaining and fun for you..When I was 12 I loved going around killing mobs and playing GodWars muds, but now I'm a bit more mature and grown up and I think that's why I eventually ascended to the RPI genre. Good day.

-Del

See, there's that sense of superiority and condescension again.

Paraphrased:

"Everyone should play what they enjoy, but by the way, if you're not playing an RPI, then what you're playing isn't as good. It's what mature people ascend to. Everything else is JUST a roleplay mud."

If you RPI blokes were an eight year old kid, no one would come to your birthday party, and no wonder why.

I think the entire discussion is silly, and the accusations being slung back and forth even sillier.

Within the scope of -this- website, there exists a definition of an "RPI." RPI can mean many - many different things, some of which have nothing to do with muds at all.

But here, on TopMudSites, an RPI follows a distinct set of criteria which seperates it from other muds.

The only games I know of that fit the criteria of an RPI *HERE AT TMS* are the games that the originator of this thread said he isn't interested in.

So - either he isn't looking for an RPI as defined by this specific website's listings or I just don't know of any others that do fit it.

Perhaps the originator of the thread might kindly tell us what, exactly, he is looking for and not to use a term that obviously brings out the worst in people on all sides of the issue.

Are you looking for permanent death of characters? Are you looking for an "intense roleplaying experience" in general, or do you require that "intensity" to be driven by specific rules and code to support it?

I've played Inferno, which can be very intense roleplay at times, but it doesn't fit the criteria of an RPI, according to the guidelines set here on this particular website. It has not only an OOC channel, it has an entire OOC area. Plotlines aren't kept strictly IC, people discuss them up in the OOC area and even on their unofficial bulletin board forum. There is no permanent death, there are levels and "training" that is experience-point-based rather than a more realistic "trial and error." It has a massive "verblist" (called socials in other games) which often are totally incongruent with the game's genre (you can "hop around like a bunny" or some such with one of them, for instance)

I used to play Gemstone, which also used to have some pretty intense RP at times. It wasn't RP enforced though, it was merely RP allowed with a vague rule requiring people to remain "in character." So if it was "in character" for your character to say "I'mma big bad evul nasty elfie and I gotta treasure boxie so's I wanna git someone ta pop m'boxie" and jump around and giggle, then it's all good. Stupid as heck to me, but perfectly within the boundaries of the game's rules.

I currently play one of the games that fits the criteria of an RPI here on this particular website but it's one of the ones the originator of this thread said he wasn't interested in.

I never said that Disciple, If you are happy playing what you are playing keep playing. But in MY eyes I think -I- have ascended to a higher form of entertainment. If you think random killing of NPCs to gain experience and levels is fun so be it. I used to do it and have fun, but I was much younger. Now if you're going to quote me quote my whole post and don't do this paraphrasing bull ****, I never once posted that RPI players are "higher" or ascended beyond players who love to play different muds. You could have Goerge Martin playing a stock diku pk mud, who cares? The point is I see that I have ascended..****ing moron. I just had to post that, you can quote that too if you want.

So, when you modify what one RPIer says you get something that shows that that RPIer is being elitist, you show, by the laws of pointless stereotyping, all RPIers are elitist?

I'm sorry but there isn't much logic in that argument at all.

Well there is fear of dying as there are penalties for death. Also no one ever likes the blow to their ride when they die, So it's hardly like players in non permadeath muds are lining up to jump of cliffs for the fun of it. With the knowledge that you will not lose your character permanently comes the freedom to develop it fully, why would you give something 100% if you don't even know you are going to have it tomorrow?. I've spoken to many people who have said they held back from really putting everything into a character in a permadeath situation because of that very factor.

The few 'RPI' muds that I have tried were possibly terrible examles of the genre, but they sure did put me off. Mud number one I found myself as a newbie with no channels whatsoever to ask for help on. No way to even send a tell to anyone as you had to know the people first and have some kind of earring. I found my way yo a bar where green-eyed elf was talking to almond-eyed human about the baseball game they watched last night on TV. I mustered up an ic 'excuse me gentlemen but I am new in town and feeling a little lost' and was killed.. I can only assume it was for daring to interrupt their chatter?. RPI #2 had more players, but everyone just skipped around using 'introduce <target>' I felt silly using a coded method to get to know people. when I attempted to actually roleplay an introduction I was met with strannge reactions and someone said to me 'ooc u can just do introduce elf. that will tell u my name'

I'm just getting kind of fed up with this eliteist snobbery that seems to be an underlying trend. RPI muds are the only way to provide a rich and intensive roleplaying experience???. I don't think the coding of a mud has anything at all to do with the rp experience. You can get stunningly realistic roleplay in a diku mud! It's the players that make the game.

I think the term RPI to describe thaat kind of mud is misleading, it almost suggests that anything that does not fit the RPI 'reqs' perfectly is hack 'n'slash. And by the way some of you talk it sounds like you believe that too. I think that these days with many more muds coming out with original code bases that cross the boundries between the little pigeon holes we used to jam things into that perhaps the whole way we look at and label muds needs to be reassed.

You can have intensive roleplay in a non RPI, and as I have experienced, you can have damned lousy roleply in an RPI

Then they are sissies IMO. It's that fact that many of us put everything we have into our characters...because they could die at anytime.

It's pretty ****ing awesome when RL years after one of your characters has died they are still remembered by many with fondness and great stories. Sometimes their deaths can leave a lasting impression on those who they interacted with.

Quit rolling around the houses. It is, what it is.

The official definition of tfR muds:

'A Mud that is teh f00kyn Roxkor. Requirements include: kicking ass, taking names, playing roles, and sexing up the occasional over-sized insect. Permadeath, no OOC channels, a sexy beast of a Sanvean as Imm, and the occasional long-winded, more or less pointless GDB post by one of many long-winded, mind-warped players. The occasional mass slaughter by your resident 'Imm o' Evil', the occasional gargantuan orgy led by promiscuous nobles, and the occasional bout of annihilation amongst the skinnies.

These requirments, while important, are not absolutely necessary. In fact, they all take a back seat to the main requirement of the 'tfR'genre of muds: Teh mud must b teh f00kyn Roxkor four jour fookyn Soxkor - Armageddon is the only mud I know of that fits all of the above requirements.

RPI is a label commonly applied to muds with specific a feature set, much like MOO is used to refer to a specific type of mud. However while it would be confusing to call every Object Oriented mud a MOO, that doesn't mean that MOOs are the only Object Oriented muds, nor that they are innately better (or worse) than other Object Oriented muds. The same logic applies to RPIs and muds with intensive roleplaying - in my opinion many of the RPI features actually detract from the fun and even from the quality of roleplaying (as well as place restrictions on the theme).

You appear to look down on muds which involve going around killing things - but what need does a mud have for permadeath if there is no killing?

You haven't ascended, you've just become more closed-minded towards muds that don't fit your current tastes. Try talking to some of the MUSH RP-fanatics* and you'll find that many of them look on RPIs with the same arrogant disdain that you now show towards other RP muds.

If you wish to 'ascend', you'll need to learn to be more open-minded. If you'd had this same attitude when you used to play GodWars then you'd have stagnated there instead of finding whichever mud it is you now play.

* Just to clarify, by "MUSH RP-fanatic" I mean those MUSH players who are also fanatics about their style of mud - I don't mean that all MUSH players are fanatics, because, as should be apparent from this thread, every style of mud has its own group of zealots.

Why give it your all if you may lose it tomorrow? For the same reason you do so in life (in which you could easily die tomorrow for all you know). It's because the struggle is what matters. Success is not nearly as satisfying nor the experience so realistic if the difficulty is non-existant. The element of death adds to the realistic experience. Yourself, and the people you're talking to don't sound like those looking for a role-playing experience so much as a gaming one. That's fine, but I think you fail to see that what you're talking about isn't role-playing.

Well, there's your problem. These don't even sound like RPIs, they sound like the knock-offs that fans of RPI MUDs don't like seeing the acronym used to describe, for this very reason (and on the off-chance that the first incident took place on an actual RPI MUD, you should have reported it to the staff because no RPI staff would tolerate that kind of behavior). RPIs require you to remain in character so under no circumstances should anyone ever be talking about last night's baseball game. That's why RPIs don't use global channels, restrict OOC information, and require strict in-character behavior at all times. You want to talk baseball? That's what instant messengers are for.

RPI is an extreme. If your MUD is "crossing the boundaries between the little pigeon holes", then don't use RPI to describe your MUD because that's like using "Ferrari" to describe any vehicle with four wheels. Just as "Ferrari" is used to describe a particular type of vehicle, so too is RPI used to describe a particular type of MUD. If your MUD doesn't fit that description because it features other elements that "cross the boundaries", don't use the acronym. Being an RPI (or for that matter, like any other strict definition like "Pure PK") is like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

Well, assuming that the two examples you gave above are your only experiences in "RPI" MUDs, it's a fair guess to say you're speaking from ignorance. So, your assessment is fairly worthless, since it's an assessment of a non-RPI MUD posing as one, not an actual RPI MUD. Now, if you have legitimate examples from legitimate RPIs, that may be different (but again, you should have contacted their staff, since RPI staff are fairly strict about maintaining the quality of the IC environment). But your experiences with Psuedo-RPIs are the very thing fans of RPI MUDs don't like about everyone using the acronym: it presents a false appearance of what an RPI is like.

Not everyone has to like role-playing or RPI MUDs. But the problems those who don't like them constantly butting into conversations regarding them (if you don't like RPIs, move on to another discussion topic) or incorrectly call their MUD an RPI leading to misconceptions about the genre (to play off my above example, if you're a Rolls-Royce, call yourself a Rolls-Royce, not a Ferrari).

These two things would help prevent the continued derailing of topics.

To the original poster: It doesn't sound like you're interested in RPI MUDs but if you are try Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur, and Armageddon (there may be a few more in development as well, feel free to drop me a PM if you'd like me to point out any others when I note them). If permanent death, level-less, strict-in-character role-play at all times within a detailed and realistic world are not what you're looking for, avoid those three, since RPI MUDs are probably not up your alley.

Take care,

Jason

I highly doubt the examples you gave are RPIs. Killing somebody for breaking an OOC conversation would probly put the mud in the realm of non-RP (in an RPI, you shouldn't even have OOC conversations in the middle of the mud), in my opinion, unless it was players breaking the rules of the mud and they were severly punished for it. This is the kind of confusion that is created when people twist around the meanings of the acronym. I'd be interested in knowing what muds those are though.

All your arguments for the 'elitist snobbery' of RPIs comes from the fact that you seem to think everybody else is saying non-RPIs are lesser when in fact, most aren't. It is a self-implied statement. You say I think this is true, and assuming that it is true, I will prove that it is true. There is nothing "misleading" about the term RPI, it is a type of mud, and a type that you don't seem to understand very well, given your examples of the "RPI"(which really weren't) that you played.

That has not been my experience. I find, and I believe the people with whom I play will agree, that because life is fragile, it is precious. And because it is precious I want to experience it completely.

Oddly,  my experience has been the complete opposite of yours. I've found (granted it was only one game, but I played it for two years) that the game with no death at all, had players who were far more conservative. Who played, I felt, far too safe.

Finally, yes, you can find less stellar rp on rpi's (though as pointed out above, the examples sited are not the types of bad ro you're likely to find on an rpi) and great rp in other environments.

And you're not required to like RPIs. It's ok if you don't.