I'm afraid I can't quite follow your logic there. How is it that advertising a game as free to play (which it is, let's not kid ourselves) results in an individual then paying $200 in the first place? I mean, if it was Kimberly's prerogative to play for free, which is entirely her option, she isn't going to be spending that money. No amount of policy ignorance (which a brief scan of the website or about ten minutes of play time would clear up) would lead to this scenario, at least not where concerns whether the game should be considered free to play or not.

As a side note, Achaea's success speaks volumes for the credibility of its business model. I can't speak for the numbers exactly, but enough people do very well for themselves without spending a dime (myself included for the first two and a half years or so there) that claiming that the playing field becomes irrevocably unbalanced by the pay for perks system is simply inaccurate.

What MUD has this happened on?

What MUD has this happened on?

That's how I read the following statement from the_logos, posted earlier on this thread.  Kimberly purchased credits, used them for 'lessons', and lost lessons (or the skills purchased with lessons, or some other downstream effect of the original purchase) because, in the opinion of her guild, she was not acting appropriately as a member of that guild.

Nobody -ever- takes credits away from a player unless it is a result of credit card fraud, and players, or even normal Gods, cannot take them away. On Achaea, only 4 of us (all paid, full-time employees) can do so. What Kimberly lost was lessons. You can spend credits on lessons, and also get lessons by rising in level through questing, hunting, etc. You can get credits by buying them from us or getting them as rewards or buying them from other players, in-game. You use lessons, incidentally, to raise skills.

Once you've spent credits, as the disclaimer says, the value of what you've spent them on may increase or decrease as a result of your actions or the actions of other players. Kimberly was unable to accept this, apparently feeling that anything another player did to her as part of the game system was, in fact, "us" (the administration) doing it to her.

As I'm pointing out, that's all legal, because Kimberly apparently signed a EULA to the effect that she understood this at the point of purchase.  Achaea refunded the money in this event, but they were not legally required to do so.  My impression is that it was done as a courtesy, or at the very least in the name of efficiency, as in "It is not worth our time/effort/aggravation to dispute this amount of money.  Please take it back and leave quietly."  Either way, it's professional customer service.

You may wish to read a few of the other messages in this thread as well. She 'lost' nothing due to the opinion of a player, assuming she 'lost' anything (which I disagree with, but for the sake of the argument will pass on that), it was due to her own actions.

Molly did not say this, Brody did. Please don't put words in others mouths.

Edit: Misread it entirely. Please ignore this post. My apologies

From Reyas: She also, technically speaking, did not lose lessons either. She spent her credits on lessons, then spent her lessons on guild skills, then due to her own actions, was booted out of the guild. When leaving a guild, you lose your guild skills.

From Hardestadt: If you invest those credits in lessons, learn skills and then be an arse and get kicked out of the guild you are subject to lesson loss when you forget the guildskills in question.

As I previously stated, she lost something derived originally from her purchase.

From the_logos: ...player organizations are extremely powerful. They serve to weed out twinks in that they enforce certain basic roleplay standards and simply deny a class to players who aren't fit to play that class. For example, the Druids guild may decide that a particular novice player doesn't have an understanding of what it means to serve and protect nature in Achaea, and so may require that said player go learn and then write a paper on the topic. Being kicked out of the guild before you've progressed to a certain point means you will simply lose your Druid skills entirely.

From this, I gathered that if it is a player's opinion that you do not live up to the standards of your guild, you can be expelled, with consequent loss of skills.

Combining the two, if a player deems you unworthy of guild membership, you will lose some of what you paid for. That's all I've said, and it's consistent with everything in this thread posted by Achaea admins and customers.

[quote= (Azhon @ Aug. 19 2004,20:11)]Actually, Molly did say that. It is incorrectly attributed to Brody. Go to page 3 I think - just past half-way down the page and you'll see her post where she responds to my JOKE about waiting for her to respond with a conspiracy theory.

hence why i behave like a good girl in Achaea. ha ha ha ha. sorry.

If you have to "Pay to Play" Run in the other direction of the scam. Toooooo many free MUD's out here to find oneself fool enough to line the pockets of folks that laugh at those willing to "Pay to Play".

Perhaps in line with what you're saying all muds should carry a esrb like warning.

Warning: You game experience may change while playing online.

The MMO nature of muds generally means that yes, other players effect your game experience. This is hardly anything new, having been occuring in muds for decades now.

I don't think anyone is debating that she lost something, but rather that she lost something based on player, not admin actions. Given she received a full refund as part of IRE's great approach to customer service, quibbling over lost lessons is something of a moot point.

Leigh

P.s. Valg, that last statement isn't directed at you.

I think the ultimate test of a business model has to lie with the customers. Achaea, Aetolia, and Imperian make money and have very few players launching attacks like this one. Given IRE games' playerbase, that's impressive.

There are also quite a number of people who spend no money at all on IRE games despite playing for years. They're obviously not so disgusted by the system that they feel they cannot compete with those who pay. If this is a crime, who's claiming to be the victim? Disgruntled people like Kimberly don't count; even if you detest Achaea, you can't view her claims as anything but ludicrous.

(Incidentally, I know Threshold used to have a system that amounted to pay for perks. It may have changed, but I'll leave that to the people who know Threshold better than I do.)

Actually, what I've been debating is IF she 'lost' anything (which she didn't) then she 'lost' it NOT based on a player, but on herself.

Threshold have a once off donation I think.. I dimly recall something about the administration there going so far as telling someone to donate blood so they can pay it, hehe.

Just to let people know, the IRE admins getting involved like this is extremely rare. Plenty of people spend loads of money on credits for lessons or artifacts (special thingies, for lack of a better term) only to see them become less useful, sometimes dramatically. No one complains like Kimberly did. I personally have lost plenty of lessons due to changing guilds and haven't batted an eye.
One other thing: She spent what, $70? Isn't the minimum amount you can sue for around $100?

Then you shouldn't have made any sort of claim that assumes truth.

Mate, don't claim to know about things you obviously know nothing about.

Why not, exactly? Because I don't feel compelled to spend hours digging through old threads for conspiracy theories?

Right. Because we want to get sued for contract violations. Clearly.

--matt

If that's the only way to backup your claims, then yes. If you say, "Look at all the conspiracies!", but then say you "really can't be bothered"to point out concrete evidence of them, your credibility for that claim goes down the tubes. It's just that simple.

Over the course of the year I played Achaea, I spent upwards of seven thousand dollars there. I never regretted one penny of it. Iron Realms' environment was more than worth the investment.

The reason I stopped playing Achaea was that I moved to a different Iron Realms game and repeated the process, spending at least that much more over the next year.

1) You can advance in any IRE game for free. It is slower, but it is eminently workable.

2) There are numerous in character means of obtaining the "credits" which can be purchased for real money.

3) The first character in Achaea to reach level 100 spent very little if any real money on the game, using mostly if not entirely in character means of obtaining his power and prestige.

Iron Realms is an ethical company. They're the first choice of entertainment for most of the players of their games. You should take a look at the worlds they offer.

A lot of accusations have been levelled at Threshold's admin over the years. Most created or at the very least embellished by a particular group of trolls who seem to think it is their holy mission to ruin the playerbase in general's fun.

As far as Threshold's payment system goes. There is a compulsory payment to 'Register' your Character. Threshold basically becomes pay-for-perks after that. The difference is that Threshold's perks have minimal, if any, affect on the game itself. And NONE of them are required for advancement.

It is expected that players will continue to support the game with donations over the period of their play, but considering we are an 18+ mud, the amount that is expected is hardly one that is not VOLUNTARILY exceeded by almost every player in the game.

Not really, no, and it was a matter about ownership of the codebase Threshold had been developed upon, and whether he would be allowed to charge anything at all for it. To my knowledge, the issue has been resolved years ago.

I'm sorry you feel people who believe someone who makes money off someone else's work are out to ruin the playerbase's fun. Obviously, if you are driven around in an allegedly stolen car, the cops will stop the vehicule only to ruin your experience, not to check whether the car is the one they are looking for.

I just hope your car never gets stolen, so that you won't be called a troll runing everyone's fun when trying to get it back.

Achaea is a pretty good mud run by decent people. They have made mistakes in the past, but who hasn't. This comment isn't really to slight them, just to point out a couple of things that they (and other muds like them) should seriously consider when they are accepting money for their services...

1) With players running the clans, any complaints that occur because of "loss of" PAID abilities (such as lessons as one person said), is VERY actionable in a court of law. Especially when it's a 3rd party removing (or altering) the customer's paid product. Because then it's the burden of the service provider to prove that their agents acted properly.

2) With any sort of "payment" for a character, the player then does have some legal ground for character ownership. This means that it may be illegal for your to "nuke" someone who has paid for the character depending on your state.

I'm paraphrasing of course. These are the laws (at least, as I remember them. I could be wrong but I don't think so) from Canada, so they may or may not be different then the states.

Also, it's very important to look at the law and see what you can and cannot place into a contract. For example, a company cannot void a guarantee in a contract. Depending on what state (or even country), you reside in, it may be illegal for you to confiscate their paid product on your server.

But since you refunded Kimberly's money, the point is moot.

And then there's the EULA, in which the players most likely waived the above.

When you pay to play a mud-type game online, you are paying for time on their server. You aren't paying for anything else. The company has the right to reject your request to "rent time" on their server, and you have the right to cease payment if you find your time is better spent elsewhere.

You aren't paying for a "thing." You aren't paying for copyright rights, you aren't paying for the privilege of having a level 99 warrior character. You're not even paying for your account. It isn't YOUR account. It is owned by the company that allows you to use it in exchange for money. Once the money stops coming, you no longer have access to it. All data contained in the hard drive/server of the company that owns the game, belongs to the company.

The only thing that is your "right" to "own" is the payment information, including your name, address, phone number, credit card number, bank account number if you choose to use check transfers, etc. etc. etc. Your "fantasy life" is not owned by you, nor do you have any "rights" to it. You have only the "right" to use it during the length of your subscription.

In a pay-for-perks-optional game, what you are paying for, again, is time. You are letting them adjust your character's data on your behalf so that you don't have to use your own time doing so yourself. Once that data is adjusted, it is up to you to decide whether or not your character will maintain that adjustment. Whether it's "possessing" a +5 steel katana, or a boost to your strength stat, or a "magnificently crafted steel and adamantum blessed broadsword with a hilt so black it absorbs all light within a 20-league radius." You don't own that - you don't have the "right" to keep it. You can't take it with you, you can't remove it from their database. All you have - is the opportunity to have your character's pfile adjusted to reflect the impression that the character has this thing. Then once he has it - someone can steal it, the character could break it, he could decide never to use it and let it collect dust in a locker, or you as a player could disobey the rules of the game and end up sitebanned as a result, with no refund - because your character DID get this adjustment made to its file, as promised and paid for.

Jazuela Im quite confused about your post, you state, and I quote

Yet tword the end of your post you go on to say that you pay for the adjustments
made to your data, now I can honestly say I dont know how you think, but that is
paying money for something on a game, not for the time. Paying for the time would
mean only one thing, and that is, The only way your money affects your player, is
it allows you to play on their sever. And seeing as how you can play for free on
their server, you are paying for so called "Fantasy" items as you so put it.

Im not here to tell you, that you are incorrect, but that your post conflicts within
its-self.

Hi there. The law isn't black and white, but this is pretty cut and dried. We've gone over all this extensively with our legal team. We are 100% within our rights to ban players and not refund them, at any time, just like AOL is. The only exception would be kicking people out based on their association with certain protected categories. We couldn't kick someone out because he or she was african-american, for instance. Similarly, the only guarantee we provide is that players will not lose credits. We explicitly state that the real or perceived value of what they spend those credits on may change. Kimberly never lost a single credit, only the product she purchased with those credits.

The analogy our lawyers gave us was going to a carnival and purchasing tickets to play games with. The carnival is completely within its rights to kick you out at any time, with no refund. Similarly, you have no recourse if you're unhappy with what you spend those tickets on.

Anyway, it's not something that's worth debating from my point of view. Our lawyers are experts on the matter and with all due respect, nobody on these forums has anywhere near their level of experience or knowledge on the subject at hand.

--matt

This is exactly what I was getting at when I talked about the players being able to remove the fruits of your credits, above.  I understand that IRE can do so as long as they lay out the terms ahead of time- once you break your end of the contract, they aren't obligated to hold up their end.  They can't just walk up and say "We don't like you.  We're taking away the skills your spent your lessons on.", but they can say "The contract states that you must refrain from spamming other players, and according to the definition given, you did that.  We're taking away the skills your spent your lessons on." (Disclaimer: I don't have their contract in front of me, and I'm making up that clause.)  You signed a deal with IRE, and it's like buying any other service from a company.  If I buy an email account (a 'virtual object' as well), and use it to spam people, that company can cancel it and not refund my money.

However, it's not clear why other customers of IRE can strip you of the fruits of what you paid for.  (No, they cannot directly remove credits.  But they can remove a portion of what you used the credits on.  See my two posts on page for quotes and a more thorough explanation.)  According the the_logos, player guilds are this powerful, and can take these actions without involving an IRE employee.  So who protects the customer from the other customers?

It's not hard to imagine a clique of players who use that authority in a partisan fashion- you **** someone off somehow, they start with the docking.  Games commonly have these sorts of issues in a competitive environment, but in many games, they can't do much beyond social exclusion and having their character compete against yours.

This is especially a concern when the administrator of that game admits that:

, since presumably the players in the high positions have been around a long time, and are thus reliable and valued customers.  Joe Schmoe (a less obnoxious version of Kimberly in a similar situation) who has spent zero or only a few dollars, and is playing the "relatively limited" game, might have doubts about the security of what they purchased.

I don't know what the law is in that situation, but I'd be shocked if another carnival customer could legally take away your tickets. I'm more puzzled by non-IRE employees wielding that power over a purchased virtual object.

Perhaps in Canada. Not in the States. In fact, I saw big warnings in Vegas this weekend in a nongambling games-type-area that if you misbehave, you'll be chucked out with no opportunity to redeem the tickets you bought for rides. Similarly with Disneyland back when they still sold A-E tickets for rides, etc. Similarly with subscription-based services (who don't have to refund your unused portion of your subscription if you're chucked out), etc. Similarly with bars, who can 86 you at any time regardless of whether you have 10 shots sitting in front of you that you already purchased.

Thanks, but they're very good.

--matt

They could if that's how the games were set up. For instance, you enter a game and part of the game involves mechanics where you may lose your tickets to other patrons.

However, in no case do players in Achaea have the ability to take what you bought away from them. What you buy is credits. Once you spend those credits, all bets are off. You want to spend them on in-game gold? Ok, but thieves may steal all your gold if you don't take precautionary measures, etc.

Anyway, I don't want to get sucked into a time-wasting discussion on the matter. Until someone sues us and wins, we'll continue operating as we choose to, based on the legal advice we've received from our lawyers, whose opinions are the only ones that tangibly matter to us regarding matters of the law.

--matt

The key to this whole discussion if you read the posts involve "no reason". You will notice that I agreed with you on the issue of Kimberly.

So, maybe there's been a misunderstanding.

So, let me try again. Let's try to read too.

1) A company can be sued for the money a person pays out of pocket for a service or product they denied you without merit.

Now I know you can't possibly deny this.

Now, when it comes down to the "lessons" or whatever the person bought with their credits, the loss is argueable in a court of law. They CAN argue that your agents (Yes, they are your agents because you authorize them to make these descisions), penalized him/her unfairly.

So, to summarise, because you allow the players to make the descisions for your mud, you are responsible for the actions they take. Therefore, if your agents remove items (or whatever) they have purchased without reason, it's the same as if you had.

I don't know if they'll win or not. But I'm know they have a case. Despite what your lawyers say.

Ya'll still arguing over this? very productive, seeing IRE $boyz and IRE yesmen create new accounts, and send folks flocking to post here.

If someone needs lawyers to make sure they can rip folks off without having to refund, shouldn't folks be suspicious?

"Oh, my attorney said we can grift 24/7, and not a court in the land can touch us, kinda like AOL. Aren't you proud of us, we compare ourselves to the largest internet con-game going... AOHell! Yay! Go Special Ed... I love chucky, and I love cheese..."

So young, so angry! Perhaps you are feeling upset because mummy hasn't burped you yet today. Or do you just need a changing?

--matt

Hrmm I just thought of a way to increase the intelligence of these post, referring to the most recent by the_logos. In any future post if the_logos adds a comment make it a dead post, no matter if you want to say something or not, end it at that, never reply, let it end with his post that way he will soon become null and void and Acheae and IRE won't get the free advertisement. Just my suggestions, because it seems to me intelligence stops with him and his derogatorry post.

It's funny how you focus on my post, when the post before that was the one that started flaming me and my company. I just responded. As always seems to be the case with this site's angry/bitter/frustrated types.
--matt

"Oh, I'm sorry officer, but he was mouthing off at me. I only stabbed him once. Look, it was his fault! He started it!"

Jeez, Matt. Take some responsibility for your own actions, will you? You're supposed to be the reasoned voice of a successful professional here, not a fish waiting to be hooked so easily by a blatant troll.

Furrfu.

Ok guys, this is getting a bit out of hand. No, Matt didn't ask me to post for you conspiracy theorists out there (bet you think we didn't go the moon, too, eh?) and I'm not even using my Achaean char's name, so there is NO way I can benefit at all from this post IC, so don't assume. That being said...

IRE is a very succesful business. The EULA is pretty encompassing, but here's what I want to know, you guys keep saying credits are bought with real money and then lost due to actions entirely their own, because of actions of a thid party.

Now, let me give you a scenario. I go to the Bowling Alley and see one of thos little quarter machines that you use the claw to get a stuffed animal out of it. I put my quarter in and I'm positioning the claw above what I want. I'm lined up perfectly. I get what I want, the stuffed animal. Then, later that same day, before leaving the bowling alley, I lose it. I look and look and can't find it. I have now lost my quarter because of actions my own. Do I have the right to sue the Bowling Alley because I couldn't keep up with the toy?

I have been a leader in a couple of Achaea's Guilds and I'm a leader in an Aetolian guild now. I have outguilded people, causing them to lose lessons. Did I do so frivolously? No, because if I had, the Admin would of come down hard on me. Did I know I would be taking away a person's lessons? Yes. But the actions of these people deserve it. I am a secretary of the Luminaries on Aetolia. The Guild, a good guild, has one very strictly enforced rule. Don't associate with those opposed to our ideals. Everyone gets a few warnings and if they continue to break it, they are kicked out. We do, however, allow them to join Family Clans and if they have family members who are 'evil' then they can talk to them - on that clan.

This member kept bashing with his IC brother, a Cabalist. We told him to stop assiciating. He told us to screw ourselves. He was warned. Next day, he's with the guy again. We tell him to stop again or face stiffer consequences. Once again, we get told to screw ourselves. Going into the room with him, I turned on an ability that lets me see tells. I see him talking about how he's gonna stay 'in the guild until he gets class (GR3, at which point the skills cannot be removed by anyone but an immortal, which won't happen) and then quit, so he can be an Evil Luminary. At this point, we outguilded him. He lost about 600 lessons, which equates to 100 credits, which equates to $40. The guilds do not outguild willy nilly, on any IRE game. The people that are outguilded, have it coming. Those of you that are anti-IRE, look at the issues and stop hating on the company because they're "bigger" or "more profitable" or whatever it is that make you people want to cry and hold your teddy bear.

-a longtime IRE customer

I have to agree, they can take your credits, snoop your tells, so really who runs Achaea and the IRE games?

Oh, one other thing...

You used an OOC command to make an IC descision about your guild. Isn't that totally against roleplaying?

the_logos Aug. 25 2004,22:44
Umm…
I took the trouble of scrolling back and check. And the way it looks to me is that the post before yours actually did have at least some substance to it, whereas yours contains nothing but exactly the 4-year-old-kid-in-the-playpen type of retort that you seem to be accusing the other poster of.

But since this discussion thread, which I had hoped would be dead by now, seems to have been brought back to life again, I am still extremely curious about one thing:

Why on earth did IRE refund Kimberley, when you seem to have gone to such lengths to protect yourself against any refunds? If she really didn’t have a valid claim, why pay her?

You are the only one who can really answer that question, all the attempts made from your followers and others are just speculations.

So could you please satisfy my curiosity?

They can snoop your tells and cause you the loss of invested real-life money, and will apparently do so for playing with people they don't like, or secretly planning to do things IC that they don't want you to do...

Do you think this Dask character is for real, or just a troll trying to make Achaea look bad? Because I can't see anything about being able to snoop tells on the Guild section on Achaea's website...

{SPECULATION} just to its marked as so. They refunded Kimberly's money because they were wrong, its not to get rid of someone, Ban is for that, and synozeer made sure the multiple post were banned as well.

1) They knew Kimberly was upset and would go to greater lengths if need be.
2) (Even as great as your attorney's are they don't know everything, so I just happened to pop the question to the Attorney General to see his views). It was agreed that your affiliates (guild leaders) do not legally and should not in game play have the power to affect a player where as monetary values are in place. Unless they are direct employees or volunteers who have agreed to certain legal rights before hand. (Which I highly doubt they have).
Unless of course they PAID for that guild to start the guild, and paid for the legal rights of those skills offered in those guilds (kinda like user licenses). I don't know IRE but I doubt you can buy your own guilds with actualy money, or can you?

The skill is an IC skill called Angel Mindread. It allows me to see all tells to and from players in the same room as me. I use my Guardian Angel. It is an IC skill, an IC action, and, therefore, IC information used to make the decision