Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Stick for football Madden, your facts are much more precise. Qzzrbl, you can stick with comedy, it did work, it was funny.:p
Actually what you see on page 1 is discussion of veterans of RPI and an attempt at positive discussion from a negative start. On page 1 still (not page 2) the discussion is brought up about OOC channels by who? NW? No. Jackal59MO2. Then commented on by NW and Threshold and Proph1515. Then extended by numerous others in discussions.

On Page 2 NW actually asks why this discussion turns into a defense of RPI guidelines. An attempt to bring the topic around. Proph1515 does the same.

At the bottom of page 2 Parhelion calls a foul so to speak on the narrowing of the thread and NW agrees.
At the top of page 3 NW responds to Proph1515 agreeing with him on the reason for the thread and as it was getting out of hand elected to leave the discussion.

Really. I should think with the previous threads and 1000's of posts on the topic they do in fact understand it better than you do. Oh, and by the way, way to bring back up the OOC discussions that ended 2 pages ago. Derail.

And then we see Newworlds and some others arguing about the term RPI on page three! And on that same page, we see Threshold joining DonathinFrye on his leaving of this thread.

Unfortunately you failed to read on where NW agrees with Proph1515 and says the thread went off topic during flame posts and included NW in part of the reason.

Guess you forgot to read along and see DonathinFrye's return (you happily failed to mention) and failed to mention your sudden appearance on the scene not talking about the main topic but like so many others defending the meaning of RPI standards and again on Permadeath comments.

You later state you don't look down on RPE's but in the same breath claim superiority of RPI. Please. You later finally admit your animosity and transparent position on the post I'm replying to and have the audacity to claim others have ulterior motives. In fact your entire existence on TMS seems to be focussed on this thread alone. Gimme a break, troll much?

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

That was the aim, thank ya. :D


Right.... Page one was alright.

That's why I didn't touch on it

And that was Jackal's -only post in this thread-.

It's like you (and some others) just picked up his flag and ****ing -ran- with it.


Urm... You didn't do terribly much at all to try to turn the topic around.


Seriously....?

Don't be a child about it.

You know damn well this thread is -well- beyond any hope of getting back on topic.

Mostly because you didn't put much effort to turn it around.

Anyhow, my next post will contain a summary of a vast majority of the posts, so we can see Qzzrbl's play-by-play.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

TIME FOR QZZRBL'S FAILED-THREAD PLAY-BY-PLAY!

On page two, I see the discussion slowly start careening off the dusty trail.... It goes from NW Praising other folks for updates on projects and whatnot, then Silvarilon makes a post that touches on why RPI Veterans may be leaving, and then NW brings the discussion to soft fiction.

A few posts goes on about soft fiction and magic etc., etc. (Which isn't really at all close the question posed in the OP.

And then DonathinFrye plugs his mud Atonement.

And then NW apologizes about the derail.

And then the derail -continues- about magical messengers.

And then DonathinFrye plugs Atonement again.

And then Fifi touches on why RPI veterans may leaving. (POSSIBLY ON TOPIC AGAIN?!)

A couple of more posts not really worth mentioning.

And the Jackal made his post. (which was the -only- post he made.... NW did his fair share of running with the topic.)

And then NW quoted Jackal's post, saying that hunger code (a bit of a staple to many RPI players) is lame.

And then NW continued to say stuff about how on NWA they have OOC channels that you can block out, etc., etc., etc., product placement, etc.

By all appearances, NW seems to be agreeing with Jackal's big derailing post.

Then Threshold pipes in with stuff about OOC channels.

Prof posts some stuff that wasn't a complete and total derail.

Then NW quotes Threshold, continuing on with crap about OOC channels.

Then Vanliew posts something.... I'm still not sure what the point of that post was.

And then DonathinFrye replies to Prof, throwing in another plug for Atonement in his reply.

Then Oliver pokes his head in and says he'll give Atonement a try. (I guess shameless advertising works every now and then).

Delerak gives his opinion on why Veterans may be leaving RPIs.

NW replies to Delerak, thinly veiling an advert for NWA.

Then DonathinFrye posts, saying more stuff about OOC channels.

Then NW replies to DonathinFrye's post, doing absolutely nothing whatsoever to get the thread back on track and going on more about OOC channels.

Then DonathinFrye defends RPI players, stating that many will go to great lengths to preserve their immersion in the game.

Then Parhelion posts, agreeing with DonathinFrye, and saying more stuff about OOC channels.

Then Threshold posts more about OOC channels.

Then NW defends OOC channels some more.

Then Jazuela says more stuff about OOC channels.

Parhelion-- more OOC channel stuff.

Threshold. OOC channel stuff.

Threshold. MORE OOC channel stuff.

Sombalance. OOC channel stuff.

NW, more OOC channel stuff. Doing -absolutely nothing whatsoever- to get the discussion back on topic.

NW then asks why the discussion always turns to RPI players try to defend their guidelines. (probably because RPI players are the minority in the MUD community, and many folks give them a hard time about silly stuff)

Then Parhelion posts, which can be summarized with this quote. "Threshold, I think you're letting you're success as an admin go to your head here, because your response REEKS of "I'm right because I say so."

Jazuela thanks Parhelion.

Prof posts, bringing up my exact point.

Sombalance makes a post that had no impact on anything.

Prof makes a typically long-winded post that was tl;dr.

Some more stuff, some more stuff, some more stuff.

NW makes a post that makes alot of RPI players look like a bunch of snobby asshats. (Good move, for a thread you started for RPI veterans.)

Milawe posts. Nothing terribly important.

Fifi makes a good point in a reply to NW. "You're not really a big fan of RPI's are you? Did it really not occurr to you that soliciting opinions with people who left because they were unhappy was slanted to show RPI's in the worst possible light?"

Getting tired, going to highlight only relevant posts from here on.

NW makes a post saying he's not a fan of the term RPI. Which oddly enough, he made this thread for RPI players to discuss RPI stuff. And then NW spouts some self-righteous bull**** about how he recommends RPI muds to some folks.

Then NW throws up some more advertisement, stating that his playerbase is growing.

Then NW stretches his epeen and tries to make it sound like this: "I post alot here, about every other day. So my opinion matters more."

And then NW goes on to say he wants discussion, not negative innuendo. (Which.... Just read back. He's spouted plenty of that himself.)



Honestly, I don't want to keep doing this.

So I'll stop here.

But I -will- touch on my own post. Which, it certainly wasn't on-topic, but the thread had degenerated so much, that doesn't even matter. And it's -very- possible to think something's superior without looking down on everything else.

Kinda like Dr. Pepper and Dr. K.

Sure. Dr. Pepper is better, but I'll drink the **** out of Dr. K if it's on sale.

Oh, and here's a summary of just -your- posts, NW.

Check it out!

Doesn't make you look too good. I'm not flaming. I'm not trolling, I'm just letting you know. Because you seem to be entirely oblivious to it.



NEWWORLDS' POST SUMMARIES!

And then NW apologizes about the derail.

And then NW quoted Jackal's post, saying that hunger code (a bit of a staple to many RPI players) is lame.

And then NW continued to say stuff about how on NWA they have OOC channels that you can block out, etc., etc., etc., product placement, etc.

By all appearances, NW seems to be agreeing with Jackal's big derailing post.

Then NW quotes Threshold, continuing on with crap about OOC channels.

NW replies to Delerak, thinly veiling an advert for NWA.

Then NW replies to DonathinFrye's post, doing absolutely nothing whatsoever to get the thread back on track and going on more about OOC channels.

Then NW defends OOC channels some more.

NW, more OOC channel stuff. Doing -absolutely nothing whatsoever- to get the discussion back on topic.

NW then asks why the discussion always turns to RPI players try to defend their guidelines. (probably because RPI players are the minority in the MUD community, and many folks give them a hard time about silly stuff)

NW makes a post that makes alot of RPI players look like a bunch of snobby asshats. (Good move, for a thread you started for RPI veterans.)

NW makes a post saying he's not a fan of the term RPI. Which oddly enough, he made this thread for RPI players to discuss RPI stuff. And then NW spouts some self-righteous bull**** about how he recommends RPI muds to some folks.

Then NW throws up some more advertisement, stating that his playerbase is growing.

Then NW stretches his epeen and tries to make it sound like this: "I post alot here, about every other day. So my opinion matters more."

And then NW goes on to say he wants discussion, not negative innuendo. (Which.... Just read back. He's spouted plenty of that himself.)

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I support the previous post.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

In summation: Qzzrbl creates an account. Qzzrbl focuses exclusively on the RPI thread. Qzzrbl agrees with everything Delerak said and claims that everyone else who plays RPIs exclusively would as well.

'nuff said.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

What exactly is your point here? That Qzzrbl is somehow connected with me? I can't say I've ever even seen him/her here or anywhere.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I've created an account.... You've created an account....

Everyone who posts here has created an account.

What's your point?

First thread that really caught my attention.

I haven't really been on these forums for very long.

Now now, Mr. Newworlds, please don't sink so low as to try and put words in my mouth, yeah?

My exact statement was, "For what it's worth, I pretty much agree to everything Delerak just said."

Now you see that word "just"?

That implies that I agree with everything he said recently before my own post-- namely this one.

Let's analyze it a bit, shall we?

Now, fellow readers will note, NW said, "claims that everyone else who plays RPIs exclusively would as well." like I'm trying to make myself sound like an authority on RPIs or something silly like that.... I'm really not.

But anyhow!

One of the key features of RPI muds, is permadeath.

Just read Delerak's post I just quoted.

If you can't stand permadeath, then odds are, you sure as hell aren't playing an RPI exclusively.

Try something for me, NW.

Go the the forum for any RPI out there-- Atonement, SOI, Armageddon.... Go to their forums and ask them if they all like permadeath.

I'd bet you'll get a resounding, "YES! WE LIKE PERMADEATH! GET OUT OF OUR FORUMS BEFORE YOU LOWER THE PROPERTY VALUE LIKE YOU DID ON THE TMS FORUMS!"
___________________________________________

Also, please stop trying to weasel out of the discussion at hand.

"Qzzrbl's play-by-play" I wrote up for you?

Just gonna ignore that?






P.S. Delarak and I have no real affiliation whatsoever.

He left Armageddon before I even started playing it.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Here's my condensed summation.

Newworlds makes thread about RPIs. Newworlds lets it degenerate into stupidity. Newworlds advertises his mud a handful of times, and then argues in support of one of the big no-nos in the RPI community, OOC channels in the game. Newworlds then tries to blame everyone else when he's called on it, and dodges Qzzrbl's points.

See, there's a reason you don't go to a political forum, start a discussion catering to an extremist right-wing party-- and then try to inject your own opinions into their brains and try to get them to join -your- party like they're too stupid to see that you did there.

It just won't end well.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Mentioning your game in context / as example is not advertising, and isnt banned so stop bringing it up as a weapon. Personally I dont think anyone had the right to make a set of rules that define something which is purely personal, i.e how intense RP is and the fact that they HAVE is why these arguments occur.

These forums breakdowns re. RPI and its definition will stop when new definitions are penned that do not try to define an experience which can change from player to player and game to game.

I have been playing muds for a long time (double figures in years), interactive fiction since 1981, and Role playing games for just as long. I do not accept the criteria that makes an RPI game according to some set of rules that define game mechanics laid down ages ago by a dwindling group of people.

Hence I dont respect it, and laugh at anyone who can point at a list and say "Sorry Threshold, you fail on OOC channels so you are not a role play intensive game" when it was so unbelievably intensive that after 3.5 years of play I had to quit. Yet the 'rpi' game Armeggedon, so RP -Intense- I was killed walking down the street for no reason whatsoever just getting my bearings... ooooo INTENSE RP! Left me quivering and my mind buzzing from the experience... oh..wait...

New definitions need to be defined before these pointless derailings stop. The current RPI rules in my opinion should be more accuratly defined for the most part as "Real Life Mechanic" games, or "Invisible Mechanic games", or whatever it takes to distance from 'Roleplay Intensive' as the current definitions and have nothing to do with RP or its intensity. I honestly feel that the very definition of RPI some would have us accept is actually bordering on farce and false advertising

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Hey, y'know what it takes to have a thread not be "derailed"? People POSTING ABOUT THE NOMINAL TOPIC. If you want to talk about what the thread was originally about, like, do so. Whingeing about the nasty topic bandits doesn't generate relevant content.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Changing what RPI stands for to players of Armageddon, etc., etc., other RPI games, would be like trying to proclaim to the world that "Indian" is no longer acceptable in any way to refer to Native Americans. You can try. But it more than likely won't work.

And that's a nice anecdote about how "intense" Threshold is.... Too bad anecdotes don't really prove much of anything at all.

And I'm sorry, but any time I see, "Well, here at <insert MUD name.>" posted by the owner of the mud, I can't help but think, "Shameless plug....".

Because that's pretty much what it is.

Even if there aren't any rules against it.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I am not going to expand on the story as its not relevant other than to say my RL emotions and day could be badly affected by the RP affecting my character it was so intense. Days would be spent preparaing, dwelling on situations happening in game.. I studied geology / nature / botany and biology to be a better ranger class and put WORK on hold for it.

I digress..comparing Native Americans / Indians to the definition RPI is a poor and stupidly extreme example and it shouldnt affect the players one iota. its not been in use THAT long and regardless.. it is completely bogus and noone has the right to take a personal feeling and stamp a trademark or whatever on a phrase than can be used to describe hundreds of games.

and on the plugging... NW / Threshold and whatever game you habve mentioned are well known, and mentioning them in context will not affect their ratings one way or another, and to single out NW is ridiculous as loads of people does it. NW is the first to help out when people mention olders games, and sometimes with relevant information to show they have even played them. Hell every time I post I plug primoriax and godwars as they are under my name.. YOU have armageddon.

You are trying to trash the player into looking to those who may be new to the forums to be an opportunist with ulteriior motive when in actualy fact they are no different from almost every dev and player on these forums.

Signing up with a new account to join in this discussion and start lashing out at people who have been around for a long time is the only thing that has totally derailed this thread beyond repair.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

You people have lost your mind. Or you'll say any random thing you can think of to continue an argument.

Of course RPI's require Role Play.

Oh and in cause someone is going to feign disingenuous confusion, they also require an internet connection.

Are you people kidding?

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

This happens on Armageddon too, though I can't really speak for other RPI muds.

Tell ya what, I'll give Threshold a try so I can have my own opinion on it.

Promise I won't go in with a biased attitude.

Alright, sure. That example might've been a bit out there. x-X

But, to my knowledge, the term RPI was originally created to describe Muds like Armageddon, SoI, Harshlands, etc.

But then other people piped in saying, "NO YO CAN'T USE THAT I WANT THAT TERM TOO!"

So you can understand how that can get annoying.... I'd imagine that no matter what acronym muds like Arm, SoI, etc., etc., try to use there will be other people trying to claim it.

Touche.... I'll give you that one.

I'll stop calling folks out on advertising.

Not exactly.... I just get a bit fired up when things seem to turn into "RPI vs. Everyone Else".

Because it's annoying, it really is.

I tell you, if someone started a thread that called, "Veterans of No-RP H&S MUDs", and someone makes one post about how no permadeath is lame, and how the lack of realism is silly, and then the ORIGINAL POSTER goes on to agree with and carry the torch of that one guy who posted..... There'd be a pretty heated discussion there.

I didn't create this account with the sole intention of joining this thread.

And I don't give two ****s and a squirrel fart as to how long somebody's been on these forums.

If someone does something that *bugs the **** out of me, then of course I'm going to post, and I'm not going to have much nice to say.

This thread was already derailed beyond any hope when I posted.

*(like starting a thread catering to RPI veterans, and then letting it derail, and then -joining- the derail, and the supporting stuff that no true RPI has, and then acting like you tried to stop it when you really only contributed to it)

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

You died walking down the street. That sounds oddly familiar. Oh that **** actually happens in real life. Sorry you don't like realism, which is fine, but it INTENSIFIES the roleplaying experience. You can die anywhere at anytime. Most likely you were new to the mud and did something that got you criminally flagged and you were killed by the soldiers. Since you just said I was killed walking down the street for no reason, you probably can't remember what you were doing to cause your death. Whether it was a crime of some sort, or a player that did it. You don't just randomly die on Armageddon, unless you were in the unlawful part of Allanak known as the Labyrinth. Oh wait...

Why do I even bother responding? You obviously don't care enough about Arm to learn about places like the 'rinth. If you read the documentation you would probably learn that walking down a street there and just getting your bearings CAN get you killed. Especially if you're on the elven side as a human. There are NPCs that will attack you just for being human, it's called.. racism. Oh that sounds familiar too.

I'm done for now.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

To single out Arm was an error, appologies Delerak, I have tried to get into that game as it sounds like an awesome setting, but the point remains that there was nothing intense about the experience. There was a complete lack of any RP in any of the three characters.. yeah one (the second character) did something naughty and was truely spanked by guards, my first one move out the city gate, was caught in a sandstorm and died, and the third was a human ranger, yes in Allanak (or whatever it was called) and I cant remember where i died but walking down a main street, with no warning DEAD after going through the approval process yet again is stupid.

I dont see any reason why ALL MUD games shouldnt have a tunable advice channel (off by default even), not having it is a serious barrier to newbie players. We are getting a lot of new players in Primoridax who are new to text games in general and without that channel they would not have stayed to learn the game. To Deny a game the label of an 'intense roleplay experience' based on having a channel to help new players is utter rubbish.

and back on topic, maybe this is the ultimate crux of the matter and the reason why veterans of roleplay are dropping off and fading away. Roleplay requries other people, and players need replacing.. no players = not a lot of fun. By putting up stupid barriers to entry to get the label RPI on some of these richly detailed muds and settings, players will not be replaced, and veterans of ROLEPLAY GAMES like me will just turn my back on them as it just not worth the effort. New Worlds has a swelling player base, and lots of fuel for good roleplay.. why? because it remembers ultimatly it is a game, and games need time to learn and need to forgive mistakes and people need to ask questions. Maybe 'RPI' games should look to redefining themselves for their own survival

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Now I find this -very- hard to believe....

Because as a courtesy to new players, Armageddon gives newbs a "mulligan" if they're killed right out of character creation-- up to two hours of protection, I believe. (before you go off on a tangent and say, "OMG THAT WOULD TOTALLY RUIN MY IMMERSION, THAT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE TRUE RP EVEN THOUGH I PLAY IN A MUD WITH NO PERMADEATH!", this is just for new players. After gaining one karma, you don't have this safety net anymore.

Though I can tell you weren't truly -in character-.... Perhaps you thought you were, but you clearly weren't if you thought it'd be a cakewalk to go romp around in a VAST ****ING DESERT WHERE SANDSTORMS SPARK ON A WHIM AND FULL OF DANGEROUS CRITTERS AND RAIDERS AND ICKY ELVES WITH POISONED ARROWS all by your lonesome?

Would you do that in real life?

I don't think you would.... So why would your character?

And in a city where resisting arrest is punishable by death-- what did you think would happen after doing something naughty and catching the guard's attention?

I admit, there's a -steep- learning curve, and death is always around the corner, but the RP's top-notch. If you had perhaps talked to other players.... Made friends.... Things would have been different.

The main thing that repels alot of people from RPIs is because they come in with a totally different mindset. They come in thinking they can be a lone badass from the very start.

Which simply isn't the case.

The idea of abolishing global OOC channels, is so everyone is on the same footing.... You're paying attention to the game, without much to distract you.

In a game with permadeath, it would suck -alot- if you were in the middle of an OOC conversation about last night's football game when some big terrible beasty suddenly comes in and attacks.

I think that's the main idea. That sure, you can browser-hop, or chat with folks on AIM or whatever, but your text input is empty so when something comes up, all you have to do is click and go!

As far as newbies go, there's perhaps only -one single- global OOC channel I wouldn't mind all that much, and that would be a newbie help channel. The idea's been tossed around a little, and the main point would be for Staff-Approved helpers to help with newbies. The channel would be logged and easily reviewed by Imms to prevent abuse, and would be invisible to anyone not a helper (even then it would be toggle), and anyone not asking newb questions. (Yeah, yeah, I'm endorsing a -very- strict and regulated OOC channel with the sole intent of helping new players, despite what I've said in previous posts. Don't be a bitchy nitpicker, please.)

Though really, it's not -that- much of a barrier, as many RPIs are still gaining new players who grit their teeth and rough through it until they get used to the game.

Though until then, there -is- a list of AIM screennames leading to staff-approved helpers who are more than willing to help with newbies.

Problem is, most newbies step in and wonder why creatures don't carry coins and wonder why they can't see their experience points and leave without going any further.

And really, I haven't even noticed many veteran players dropping out.... Has anyone else?

I don't think it's that much of a problem.

The rules of RPI games are fine. We're not endangered or anything, we just have a slower influx of players who stay because of the learning curve. Which is fine, in my opinion.

It'd be -alot- easier if everyone read through that mountain of documentation though.... It -really- helps you to understand what to expect.

Everybody playing RPIs went through the same thing, but we all understand why Armageddon is often called "Crackageddon". (Yeah, yeah, shameless plug, don't be a bitchy nitpicker, please.)

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

heh heh so there are OOC chat channel, they are just outside the game and activly used huh? looks like a loophole to me, but I am being picky.

Thats what happens when there is no help, potential new blood leaves. In game OOC help means noone has to leave the game to find it. Tunable OOC channel are an asset, not having them is a barrier. Plus I am well aware of staying in character, that wasnt a problem. The second character was -in character- I just got killed for being in character and not very sensible, I wasnt allowed to learn from that mistake. All my characters got killed outside the safety period, the third lasted the longest. I had water, a rented room and was ready to go.. I went, I died, I left out of frustration as there was no way I was investing time creating a fourth character.

Sorry, but have you read any of the posts by 'veterans'? They tell me a different story. I can only go by what I am reading, not personal experience.

I personally think RPI should stand for 'Role Play Inflexible' :)

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

There are plenty of ways for newbies to learn the ropes besides OOC channels.

That's actually a straw man argument since the semi-recent departure of veteran RPI players has been during a period of UNPRECEDENTED PLAYERBASE GROWTH in the RPIs. There are more people playing RPIs now than there were ten years ago yet greater numbers of veterans leaving for reasons other than real life drawing them away. The veterans from years past didn't mind smaller playerbases and even though they wanted and are thrilled by increases in the number of players on the RPIs, some are also unhappy with either the measures taken to attract new players or the quality of the new players coming in via such measures. What you refer to as "stupid barriers to entry" are the very things that the veterans liked and when those things are tampered with you've effectively sold the baby to buy a crib.

What you suggest as a cure is in fact the cause of the problem. To attract more players including players like you, since you cited yourself in your example, the RPIs have tried to appeal to a broader base and in doing so have alienated some of the veteran players that otherwise would still be playing. The solution to keeping veteran RPI players is not to cater to players like you who are NOT veteran RPI players; it's to cater to those players, veteran included, who are seeking out the particular features of RPIs not found elsewhere. Ultimately if you have 100 potential players and only 10 of them prefer the characterstics of RPIs, they're a sure bet. No matter what you offer to the other 90 and no matter how much you make your RPI like other MUDs, they still have the option of going elsewhere for the same thing.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

RPIs have no global OOC channels. EXTERNAL chat channels are no different than AIM, Skype or what have-you. None are a part of the game itself. When in the game, you have no distractions via such lines of communication.

No, that's what happens when new players show up and don't read the help files or website documentation first. Players are just as responsible as staff in making sure that they're prepared to enter any RP game be it RPI or not.

Websites and email don't require a player to leave the game, just to post their questions in a manner which doesn't intrude into the game itself. Staff (and plenty of players as well) can thus answer their questions without distracting players in-game.

As most veteran RPI players are on RPIs because they DO NOT WANT OOC chatter in-game and such channels can be tuned out who's going to see them and respond? They just serve as an irritant to players who haven't yet turned them off, end up being used by players who don't have any more answers than those asking the questions or worse end up being used for non-help related OOC.

Back in 2006 I recall a RPE that called itself RPI claiming that global OOC channels were not abused on their game and an asset, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. When I checked their game out for a potential review for the old RPIMUD.com I saw a forum post mentioning that the in-game OOC help channel had been turned off "again" because of abuse. Not only was the very thing they were claiming impossible happening, it was happening repeatedly during the same time they were arguing that it didn't happen! Hence I take most claims of "it isn't abused" with a grain of salt. The sad reality is that there are always players who will abuse any option they can if they feel it's to their advantage. My philosophy, shared by the RPIs as one reason for the lack of global OOC channels, is why give such players another means of abuse/twinkery?

The characteristics of RPIs whether it's permadeath or the lack of global OOC channels aren't the problems with veterans dropping out. By definition they wouldn't be veterans if they hadn't been playing for a while and thus those characteristics would not only be familiar to them but probably desired if they continued to play for as long as many in question have.

It seems some of the arguments in this thread have been by non-RPI people complaining about the features of RPI MUDs. These arguments don't hold water because these features are not new; they've been a part of RPIs since RPIs have existed, ie. nearly two decades now. To find the reason for veterans leaving besides life dragging them away, you have to look at conditions or behavior or trends which have surfaced or been introduced in the last decade that might have precipitated such disgruntlement.

As I cited for myself, the lack of enforcing the setting and gameworld in order to placate newbies who while new to RPIs are not new to MUDs has been one of the things that has irritated me. The increased attention and emphasis paid to playerbase figures instead of role-play capabilities is another. Additionally, lazy or incompetant staff who sometimes show favoritism has been a factor as well. While this last one is not unique to RPIs, RPI players are often very discriminating in what they expect out of a game and when given a choice between putting up with something or going somewhere else, some will choose the latter. However, the RPI community being comprised of very few games (throughout its entire two-decade history there have never been more than six open RPIs at any time and most of the time no more than four), if the others didn't meet their taste setting-wise or were equally plagued by such problems the only remaining option for veterans was to simply quit MUDding altogether. That has been what I've seen from numerous veterans recently (by recently, I mean in the last three to four years).

If you don't like RPIs, that's your business but insults and name calling are hardly necessary. If they're not to your taste, move on along to another thread instead of simply attempting to provoke flames.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Thanks for saving me the time of writing up responses Prof.

Though I will add, I've been playing RPIs for upwards of seven or eight years now.

And I've noticed a slow, but steady increase in average PCs online during peak and off-peak hours.

There was once a time when only three or four others at max were online at four in the morning.... Now the number is often in the range of 6-13 off-peak.

So....

"Veteran RPI Players" can post all they want about how there's some mass exodus of players, but from where I'm sitting, I haven't seen much of it.

::Edited to add::

And yeah, we're not Nazis about OOC communication (unless it's about IG secrets and whatnot), we're just Nazis about OOC communication -within the game itself-.

We -do- have very active forums with which to hobnob with other players, after all.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

The point is not that there's a mass exodus of players from RPIs but rather a departure of veteran players for reasons OTHER than life's normal distractions. With them often goes the knowledge and experience necessary to maintain the gameworld effectively and guide new players through example.

I recently saw a staff member on one of the RPIs post on their forums answering a couple of questions from a newbie. One of the questions was poorly answered, failing to provide adequate information to illustrate the reasoning behind what the newbie was asking about. The other response was 100% wrong. Not a little wrong, not missing a piece of information or even light on detail. 100% WRONG. A staff member should NEVER know so little about an aspect of their game as to be COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG IN EVERY WAY both in regard to the cultural details and to the history within the game itself. It's inexcusable and I can only assume the reason that no other staff member or even a remaining veteran player corrected the error is because they either didn't notice it or didn't know any better themselves. That is the problem with veteran players leaving RPIs. Staff recruitments come from the less qualified, newer players and without veterans to guide them, the problem of ignorance just snowballs.

So even with increases in overall playerbase totals, the problem is the decrease in the key demographic of veteran players with the knowledge and experience to maintain the level of quality in the game and the community.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Another thing that gets alot of new players....

Games like Armageddon are -hard-.... It's a harsh, gritty world, and all of the things that can kill you -vastly- outnumber all of the things that can save you.

From what I could guess, you didn't read over all of the documentation.

I'll be honest, my very first experiences with Armageddon were very much the same....

I was a total ubernoob, and I came because my old home mud (age of legends) had closed down. Was your typical H&S where roleplay was listed as enforced, but it wasn't really enforced. YET I DIGRESS!

Here's the story.... My first character ever actually had -metal- in his main description.

He was promptly rejected, as stated in the documentation, metal is crazyrare.

So I try again, no metal. I get accepted-- awesome. He was a half-elf ranger.

Wound up meeting some guy who tried hiring me into his little band of raiders.... So I joined up, with nothing better to do.

Later on, he logs out, and I leave the gates of Tuluk to go hunting, and get me some EXP so I can level up and be awesome.

I get torn to shreds by a pack of gortoks.

Undaunted, I nearly copy/pasted my char's description and background again, to get accepted by the imms who surely recognized a confused noob.

I go find the raider guy and talk to him again, subtlety telling him my previous character had died (Man, you saw the body of that guy with <insert sdesc keyword here>? Sucks for him-- Say, I'm looking for a job.)

So the guy hires -this- incarnation of the char again.

After we talk some and I left, I decided to try something a little "easier".... Like a child!

So I attacked a kid and got swarmed by guards, and killed.

At that point, I thought, "wtf, this is bull****, **** this game!"

And left.

Four years later, out of boredom, I give it another go.

Wound up meeting some cool people, getting great interactions, learned the game, read all the docs back and front-- been hooked ever since.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Aaaah, I see, I see....

Most vets I've seen leave were because of RL....

But then again, you rarely even know when veteran players leave.

Either way though, many of the remaining vets are doing their part to preserve what they can, and more often than not, new players catch on and follow their examples.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I died on average 2-3 times a week on Armageddon for my first year or two. I think I had accumulated over 400 characters easily. And I had multiple accounts for a while. I can't really count how many characters I've had because I used to die so much.

What can I say? I was a late bloomer and had a hack and slash mentality about everything for a long time. The patience of the staff early on let me grow into a more mature roleplayer and eventually I had characters that would last for RL years.

I did some research and Qzzrbl, you would probably freak out if I told him that we've played together in the past 2 years with a certain long lived character.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I'll continue to avoid the contention and arguments, because it's a never-ending cycle on these forums when it comes to flame wars over the definition of an RPI. I will, however, momentarily jump back into the mix.

Players have come and gone on RPI MUDs, because as younger players got older, they got wrapped up in real life and had less energy (or time) to play a game that is pretty demanding on your time. That is a flaw of an RPI; it is difficult to play casually, unless you desire to play an entirely social character that does not need to be wrapped up in ongoing plot.

Players have also continued to find RPIs, and there are as many RPIs with as strong of playerbases now as ever.

<another plug for Atonement>If you are an RPI Veteran, it is very likely that you will like Atonement. It's where many ex-SOI and ex-ARM Vets have gone. I can assume its originality and fresh face are reasons for their patronage, but I'd like to think that we do some things right that other RPIs have not managed to do (at least, in recent years). That's obviously personal bias, but our playerbase seems to agree. </another plug for Atonement. Why? Because it's really that good - and I believe that its inception, direction and success is actually meaningful to this thread.>

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Yeah, I was pretty impressed with how many people flocked to Atonement.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Speaking as a longtime Armageddon player and staffer who has been retired for about 5 years now:

Real life interfered for me. I had two children, got a serious, consuming job, and just started being way too busy to dedicate the amount of time and effort I dedicated to a mud.

I still love the game and read the boards from time to time (and from what I can tell, the game is still alive and kicking and doing just fine thank you very much). I still read topmudsites on occasion to see what's happening in the mudding world.

My gaming now consists of meeting with a group for 4th Ed. D&D once every two weeks. That gives me my fix without taking over my life (which, sadly, is what happened when I was mudding).

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Atonement sounds awesome, and from the guest login wandering and the stories on the website drips atmosphere and potential, but why plug a game that isnt actually accepting new players at the moment.. thats like dangling a carrot and when the donkey goes for a bite he smashes his nose on the bulletproof (donkey proof?) glass that is in the way

:)

Oh, and now I am older and more patient, I will give Arm another go, just re-reading all the docs... again

BUT liking the games and being impressed with them as I do love RP and a good read does not mean I think it is fair for them to keep the term RPI as their own ;)

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

It's really a great game, but it does have a steep learning curve. My main advice: focus on interaction and RP. If you get bored and can't find anything to do, it's better to log off than just go exploring or adventuring. Once you get some interaction and join a group, then things become much better. It's a steep learning curve, and having some support helps. Also try to contact a helper on the General Discussion Board (or there may be some ingame method to do so these days... not sure). The reason I was able to finally succeed in the game was that a veteran player I knew helped me along with advice and encouragement OOC.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Atonement supports a very detailed, non-linear storyline that is spread over Wikipedia Documentation, Short Stories and many, many logs of major in-game events on the website. It's always my wish that new players come prepared to the game, to help ease the learning curve that exists for all RPIs; by throwing its name out there now, I'm hopeful that new folks will come with a firm understanding of the gameworld by the time we re-open this Fall. Part of what makes a veteran a veteran on an RPI is that they have been around long enough to absorb the intricacies of the gameworld and its canon; encouraging potential new players to read before they leap is an effort to help make it easier for them to become veteran players of the future.

On another note, I'll repeat what I think that I said a long time ago; I don't really care who calls their game an RPI. I think that it has the potential to confuse a large niche of players who have preconceived notions about what an 'RPI' should be, but the name of your game is ultimately not much more than the cover sheet of its marketing plan. IRE claims to have the most in-depth roleplay and complex player-killing in the universe; just because I heartily disagree with this statement does not mean that they don't have the right to advertise whatever they would like to help bring folks to their games. When I first started playing IRE, I quit shortly after I realized that it was not what I thought that it was going to be; if a player is looking for a new RPI and plays a game calling itself an RPI that doesn't fit their pre-conceived notions, they will either be happy with the game or unhappy with their expectations not being met. It's not a judgement on which approach to design is better, in my mind. Players can make up their own minds, and it's simply not something that deserves to be continually argued over.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

This is quite the thread, and you'll have to forgive me if this has been covered already and point me in the direction to where it was discussed.

Near the beginning (of the thread not the universe :rolleyes:) it was mentioned that the best RPI's of today are nothing compared to the worst RPI's of the past. What exactly is meant by this? Is it in regards to coded features or the caliber of RP? Can anyone give any specific examples of what a good RPI looked like years ago compared to the not so great RPI of today?

Thanks!

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Staff who understood the game world
Staff who were capable of running RPTs
Staff who were willing to run RPTs
Players who understood the game world
Higher standards for RP
Greater enforcement of IC setting
Greater enforcement of OOC rules
Less tolerance of H&Sers
Less tolerance of twinks
Less tolerance of players who are unwilling to learn and/or adapt to the setting
Less emphasis on playerbase numbers and greater emphasis on the above

Those are just a quick few off the top of my head.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Just to note, I definitely disagree that this is true for ALL new RPIs. For Atonement, I believe that precisely the opposite is true for most of these points.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

So then I assume there is not general agreement then that the "Best" RPI's of today are worse of then the lowest caliber of RPIs of the past?

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Yeah, I'd say that that is correct. Beyond regards towards points involving subject things, such as the quality of staff or roleplay, the quality of code and features on Atonement - and SOI/ARM, to a lesser degree - is unquestionably improved these days.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Only if you think Prof is credible. I think he's not. I have played an RPI for about eight years, and in some ways it is better and in some ways it is worse, but over all, people are still showing up and playing hard.

Eight years ago, we still had random idiots behaving idiotically.

When I was in the military we had a saying: The best duty station is the one you're going to, and the one you just left.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Besides that, even if it were true, that everything was wonderful and perfect at the muds the detractors played at when they played at them, and they're all crap now, unless you can time travel, what difference does it make? You can play what's available or not play at all.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Agreed just trying to get a feel for what exactly it is that makes people feel they're so much worse off these days...and I guess in the end people are referring to the quality of RP and staff contribution to enhancement of the RP experience. Is that about the jist of it?

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

That is the jist of it.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I have to say I've really only played on 2 MU*s ever. The one I'm currently playing on, Harshlands, and a very old now defunct MUSH called Atlantis that I probably played on about 10 or so years ago. The one thing I loved about it was the even though its player base was small it was more than made up for by the admins, and as far as I could tell there were only 2. What I loved is that I could see if they were available for RP purposes using the +who, were as on Harshlands admins never appear on the who so I have no idea if anyone is available to be petitioned for RP.

Don't get me wrong I really like the MUD so far, but in my mind it doesn't compare yet to Atlantis. I loved the fact to that if I wanted to do something that wasn't hard coded in the admins would do a skill check and see what the results were from there. One example was that I had fairly high level skill in electronics, or something of that nature, and there were 2 pirates wanted with a reward for anyone that could bring them in. There weren't any tracking devices programmed into the game so I petitioned an admin based on my skills to create a tracking device which I planted on one of the pirates. I also converted one of the torpedoes into a bomb so I could destroy their sumbarine at the dock, then I was collaborating as best I could with one of the main police force captains. I had both sides convinced I was on their side, but the captain didn't know I had infiltrated and was on friendly terms with them.

We all somehow ended up in one room together myself and the two pirates were in there at first, then the police captain came an and one of the pirates pulled his gun on the captain, the captain pulled his gun, then both sides were telling me to pull out my gun and point it at the other side and soon everyone had a gun pointed at each other.

...In the end one of the pirates escaped, the other was captured - he went on trial and was put to death and the other pirate came in a day or two later to the lounge I was at with a bomb strapped to his chest and commited suicide attempting to take me with him, which he wasn't succesful at.

It was really exciting and great fun which I've yet to be able to replicate on another MU*

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

It's all numbers. It wasn't nearly as noticeable Fifi because the playerbases were much smaller back in the day. Therefore new players were given far more attention by the veterans of the mud and were able to learn. Instead nowadays the new players are teaching the new players. So the playerbase as a whole develops bad habits and it permeates into the staff ranks as well because.. well staff come from the pbase. That's my logic anyway.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

It all comes down to several factors. First, the question has to be asked if you've even played an RPI before given the degree of abuse to which the term is subject to by various games (coincidently beginning about eight years ago). Can't tell you how many times people have commented on RPIs without having ever even played one. Even if you have, if you've only been playing RPIs for eight years then you started as they were beginning to go downhill.

Second, you have to have been involved enough, knowledgeable enough and experienced enough to recognize a decline. Limited knowledge, experience and involvement might not see that which someone with far more of each would. My perspective comes from my experiences with RPIs as a player starting in 1999 and as an admin starting in 2004 as well as from conversations with a variety of players and admins whose experience predates mine by many years.

Finally, there's the need for objective observation. To players playing a game, there's an emotional attachment which has to be removed from the equation before an assessment is likely to carry any accuracy. It's difficult to do, especially with MUDs where loyalty tends to cloud people's impression of their game or other games. My overwhelming cynicism tends to counter that a bit but I'd be lying if I said I didn't once have a higher opinion of the RPIs than I do today. Over time I learned more and more about them and saw more and more problems with them. While I still think they have incredible potential, my overall view of them is no where near as positive as it once was.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

No there's not a general agreement. However, I suspect that the vast majority of the "it's just as good" camp does not have the perspective from which to make any valid assessment. If someone does not have data either from direct observation or research from which to understand what was from what is they can not be expected to make an accurate comparison and assessment regarding the differences between the past and present.

You cite Harshlands. While I can't comment on the game today via direct observation, I can from as recent as last year from several friends who played it until then. When I first started playing in 1999 I was impressed with everything but its playerbase size which was extremely small. After a couple years holding at the same levels, the game picked up more and more over players but my observation of them was that a lot of them were of a lower quality than those I'd encountered prior. By 2004 and 2005 I noticed a distinct influx of players that, to put it nicely, sucked. By the time I left in 2007 my view of Harshlands was quite low. Likewise, I learned more about the operation on the staff side and saw more and more examples of things like favoritism. With that knowledge, I was able to look back on the previous 8 years of experience with the game and see the evidence of it that at the time had escaped my notice. This most certainly did nothing to boost my impression of the game.

Following a series of completely unacceptable events involving players who had no business on the game (my experience with these players was not the first; I have no fewer than four prior examples of similar behavior by them either through my direct observation or from accounts by others) I left the game as did a couple other people who equally found the events unacceptable. A few others stuck with it for a months or years longer but most eventually quit as well, citing the decline in the playerbase and the problems with staff behavior as the cause.

Hence my perspective on the quality of the game is the result of multiple avenues of observation and data. The conclusions of this observation and analysis of information left me with a very negative view of the game. To put it in numeric terms, if my best exprience with the game was say 95 out of 100, by the time I left I would have given it something in the low 30s. From friends who continued to play after I and others left in 2007, it sounds like it only got worse especially since many of the players who were responsible for the shreds of respect that I still had for the game have since left as well. I have very little data from after 2009 because those friends eventually threw in the towel on the game as well. Conversations with former staff and players from the years prior to my playing the game revealed that the seeds of what I finally experienced were already germinating even before I started playing but that they only grew more and more pronounced on the player side of the game over time.

Now, to a player who didn't have either the experience of playing the game long enough or the willingness to step back and observe rather than blindly remain blissfully ignorant, none of that would be apparent. I didn't see it all when a couple players left before I did though their observations made me more attentive and it was then that I did begin to see the problems on the staff side. I had long been observing the problems on the player side since I tend to be a stickler in regard to player responsibilities be it in regard to knowledge of the game world or adherence to the setting, etc. (I was a harsh twink-buster during my time on SoI's staff).

That's just the case with Harshlands. My observations are not limited to that game alone but to nearly every RPI that ever opened (I'm excluding a few that only opened for beta testing). I'd wager that most if not all of the players who don't see the decline in quality on both sides of the RPIs fit the above statement regarding lack of experience or unwillingness to observe.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I dislike soft fiction settings, so that definitely turns me off from most RP MUDs, which was the generic question in the OP.

The dismissive attitude toward the concept of hard and soft fiction by you and prof is interesting. I can only assume that Armageddon's game world and game physics are soft as the game is inspired by Dark Sun. The softer the fiction the more lore is required to be learned by heart as, with increasing softness, logic becomes increasingly useless.

An illusion of hardness can be perceived if enough people belief in the same nonsense (the belief in God is a good rl example where soft illogical fiction can be perceived as reality), which would explain why the loss of veterans is a big problem; as veterans can be compared to priest who teach people the right way to interpret the vague or incomplete scriptures, help files in this case.

Then again, I guess there's nothing that stops RP from getting intense in an unrealistic and inconsistent roleplaying environment, but that kind of obsoletes the RPI concept. Perhaps all you really need is a bunch of nazis in charge who keep the players in check.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I would prefer nazi's keeping the players in check rather than giving players complete freedom to do whatever they want. Roleplaying needs to be defined on an RPI, it can't be loosely interpreted because you don't want to 'offend' players. Tough love so to speak.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

I staffed on and played Armageddon for years. I suspect that the source of much of the "RPIs have gone downhill" argument is based in nostalgia, not empirical evidence or even reality. That being said, I don't play at all anymore, so I admit that I can't speak from experience. I do occasionally read the Armageddon discussion boards, and it doesn't appear that much has changed judging from the, admittedly inadequate, snapshot of the boards.

And prof: FiFi plays on Armageddon, I believe.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

Well I just took a peak and now you can't play slaves anymore. If you enslave PCs they are instantly stored? That doesn't sound much like the old days. Back in the day if you were enslaved you dealt with it. Sure you could choose to retire the PC but most players wouldn't do that and would go with whatever happens ICly.

Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs
 

The slave role has always been problematic, and there have been issues with it off and on for years. It's not the first time that the slave role has been taken off the table, so it's not like this is some new sign of the degradation of RP. You also seem to be missing the harshness as much as the RP quality.

I definitely agree that Armageddon has gotten less harsh as time has gone on. There was a time when twinks ran around killing people randomly while chalking it up to "RP." Complaints about said twinkiness to staff were dealt with through a response of, "It's a harsh world. Get over it." This doesn't mean that the RP quality was better back then, though.