One other thing, you guys are missing the point....

She didn't lose credits. She lost LESSONS she chose to BUY with credits. She could of spent those lessons on, say...a plinth, that only Druids can use.

If I chose to buy, say, an artifact sword (which can only be bought with credits), and then I decide I want to be something else, say...a Priest, which can't use the sword. The sword suddenly loses value, but I have *not lost* a single credit.

Suppose I decided to buy lessons with credits, then gambled them all away on one big spin of the roulette wheel. Did the game steal my credits? No, because I still got what I paid for, the lessons, It's just that they're gone because of a decision I made.

Kimberly made the decision to not obey her guild rules. She got outguilded. She didn't lose her credits, just what she chose to buy with them, because of a decision she made. If she had done what her GM had told her to do, she wouldn't off been kicked out. But she was. End of Story.

If you chose, yes, that's understandable. But this isn't about the person's choice, it's about another group of players being able to choose for you.

So the player can still keep the lessons, then? Perhaps for the next guild they join, or to spend on something else?

Just a thought...

I'm getting the impression from you guys that if a player pays enough money to buy stuff IC, they shouldn't be able to be punished for breaking any rules, period, because then they lose money. If that's the case, which MUD do you run, because I'll gladly drop some money into your game, then go on a mass killing spree killing everyone in sight and then sue you when you delete/ban me.

I have to agree with Rundvelt, buying a sword and losing it is different than training something and losing those due to another players actions. Now you can say what if someone stole her sword because she was sleeping in a non-safe area, well thats theft, or what if she lost it, well she did that solely on her own, not becaus someone took them away.

If you buy a car, and someone steals it, didn't you also lose money? Don't you have to respend money to get another one, much like credits, she would have had to buy more to re-practice so in essence they did take credits.

Credits can also be bought IG with gold...

Then you've obviously mistaken what I'm saying. I have no problem with a player being punished by the staff for violating OOC game rules. What I find preposterous is the idea that another player could permanently strip me of something I've paid real-life money for, simply on an IC whim.

If someone is outguilded on a whim, the Admin will come down hard if the person complains - provided the Guild did not have just cause to outguild the person. They don't just hand GM's a Key to the Game and say 'do as you wish' - Players do have a large amount of control, but in the event that one gets out of hand, they are punished by the admin. Kimberly's problem was that she was out of line, the GM thought it, and the Admin agreed with her, therefore she started screaming sue like every other immature brat running around.

And? Roleplaying is just one style of play and we try to appeal to more than one style of player.
--matt

Substance? What substance? Calling AOL/TimeWarner a big scam? Sorry, but that's just an immature kid screaming his/her frustrations out at the world. That's right up there with people screaming, "Muds were meant to be free!"

We don't HAVE to refund. We can choose to refund. Initially when she was kicked out of her guild (for being a huge pain in the ass. She richly deserved it.) I gave her 'lessons' back so that she can re-learn new skills. We actually changed game policy from losing 50% of your guild skills when kicked out as an apprentice guild member to losing 10%. It wasn't really because of her, but her situation was the straw that broke the camel's back. No matter how whiny and psychotic she was, she had a point there.

Unfortunately for me, she didn't stop there. Within a day or two she was whining to me again that nobody would let her into a guild (because she had established a very bad reputation for herself by her constant complaining about everything to everyone) and demanding refunds because of it, etc. After the (literally) 12th email from her one morning I just refunded her to get her to go away.

--matt

As has been pointed out many, many times already, players cannot take your credits, ever. There are, in Achaea, exactly 3 people who can, all of them full-time employees. Those employees never, ever do so unless credit card fraud is involved.

As for snooping tells, sure, it's possible (though fairly difficult), though it's also possible to ensure you cannot be snooped except for a Creator-level God.

--matt

Talked to the Attorney General did you? Are you seriously going to sit there and lie to us and tell us you talked to John Ashcroft about this? Or perhaps you mean the California attorney general, Bill Lockyer. Any other attorney general's opinion is irrelevant.

Give me a break. You clearly did not talk to either of them, and frankly, neither of them are experts in this kind of law. Attorney Generals are political positions. They're not filled by men who are experts in narrow areas of law, but are filled by politicians looking for someone to enforce their brand of law. Let's not forget the US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, constantly pushes pretty blatantly unconstitutional laws. (*cough cough patriot act cough cough*)
--matt

Proven? You have an odd definition of proof. "Proven" would mean there's been a court case and the court has issued a ruling.

Are you even a lawyer? Are you even an American lawyer? Are you even an American lawyer specializing in IP law? No? Then perhaps you should talk to one first.

--matt

That's fine, you're welcome to find it preposterous. And yet, it's true. You don't like roleplaying at all, as you've stated here before, so I don't really expect you to understand why in-character actions can and should have consequences. Kimberly broke the guild rules willfully and was kicked out for it. *shrug* Her choice.

Our muds are set up to give players far more control over the world around them than most muds do (though certainly not all). We want our players to be able to form communities that have at least some actual power, and this is one way they have it. People are free to go play other muds in which they have no actual power. That's their choice. Given that our games are clearly popular, perhaps you're just having a difficult time understanding that people may way to play games not set up how YOU'D personally like them set up.

Heck, I find submitting applications to play a mud preposterous but you don't see me slamming mud admins for the practice. That's their thing, and while I'd never submit an application in order to play, good for muds that do for appealing to a different kind of player than I am.

Annyywwwaay, this thread is done for me now. Our position has been well-explained, we're in the right, and so far nobody has done anything to demonstrate we're not. (Note I said did. People can flap their lips with opinions all day long, but it doesn't mean a thing without action. All the talking on all the mud forums in the world isn't going to change anything we do, because talking is just talking.)
--matt

Someone's going to have to explain to me what the difference is between:

1) Taking away credits.
2) Letting you decide what you want to spend your credits on, and then taking that away.

Seems to be a semantic difference. Either way, at the end of the day, there's money in IRE's pockets and you have nothing to show for it.

And whether or not the practice is legal (which I've avoided commenting on), the fact remains that the practice of letting other players take what you paid for should concern potential customers. I'm happy to see the light of day shining on this particular shady corner.

Actually Thurbert Baker, is the Attorney General here (ie. I don't live in California) and I got his opinion not his legal advice, I could care less I would never play an IRE game, if their built on the same level of intelligence that you portray in your post, what a sad sad day for mudders everywhere. Do I feel its right or legal no, and I've stated that in this forum.

{Quote The_Logos} Note I said did. People can flap their lips with opinions all day long, but it doesn't mean a thing without action. All the talking on all the mud forums in the world isn't going to change anything we do, because talking is just talking.)

I love that, so you take potential players, and current players and others peoples advice and reviews and make it nill, love your business flaw, errrr strategy.

As I stated you gave her back your money cause you were wrong, admit it, you can block email addresses, just as you blocked her, no one can actually harass you on the internet, theres so many ways of ignoring people.

And when you let players run a game you get egotistical power hungry kids who take it way to seriously, you should keep a closer eye on your guilds, seems they ran away one customer how many more has it happened to?

Sorry, but I had to bring up one more point.

Money and time are both currencies. For me, my time has more value to me than my money for the most part, as more money can be made, but more time cannot.

Should I be outraged if I pay my time to bash monsters and get xp, only to have it taken away because a player PKs me, causing me to lose some xp or equipment?

Personally, I think not, because that's what I signed up for when I paid my time. Perhaps I should come play Carrion Fields though and see if your practices are shady or not. May I assume that no matter what actions I take in-game, no other player will ever have any negative impact on what I've spent my time on?
--matt

Darn, thought that was it, guess not.