Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Well said. So, back to the payment system:

This is also very similar to Hephos's suggestion, except that he's separated "Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game." into "donations without rewards" and "In-game merchandise sold". Personally I don't think such a distinction is necessary, as it's not really very important and is the sort of thing that could be mentioned in the text area.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It's correct to say that if you have four or five options that can individually be checked 'yes' or 'no', you have four or five binary options.

I think your proposed system provides no useful information to the searcher, and is so vague as to be the most useless option of the many presented. I also think that the obfuscation is fully intentional.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Is "Payment/donations accepted, rewarded in-game" an inaccurate description of Threshold's payment model? If so, how?

I don't think there's a lot of point in basing our criteria on what liars will do. If that's an argument against one set of criteria, it's an argument against any other. To my way of thinking, the point is to make sure that an admin acting in good faith knows what option to select for his MUD, that these options provide clear and useful distinctions for players, and, as much as is feasible, that the admin doesn't feel pressured to select a category that may be misleading.

Faced with "pay-to-play", "pay-for-perks", "donations unrewarded in-game", and "no money at all" as selections, I don't believe that anyone acting like a grown-up is going to have a problem figuring out what to click on.

The case you describe of the guy who sells t-shirts that come with XP every Thursday and selects "unrewarded donations" is simple: he's wrong. It's not the fault of the categories, because the categories describe his situation unambiguously; he has simply selected the wrong one.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

The only people my system is not useful to are people who want to sell merchandise and pretend that isn't accepting money for their game.

There is nothing vague about making a verifiable, accurate claim that is not ruined by actually vague concepts like "rewarded in game" or whether something is a "donation" or not.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Remind me how that's vague?


As far as I know, referring to it as "Payment and/or donations"
addresses the possible uncertainty here.

I don't think this is vague at all:

Perhaps it could use the addition of a checkbox for out-of-game
rewards for payment (mousepads, whatever).

Perhaps it could use the addition of a text box for folks who
really really need to specify something that somehow
doesn't suit the body of their listing.

But *fewer* options doesn't strike me as *more* helpful in a search.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Many of you are arguing over the 2 option pay/no pay and the 4 option pay/no pay.

Does anyone want to consider this model, of 2 options, with relevant check boxes besides me and Hephos? The benefit would be that you could search for commercial muds, completely free muds, or all muds that meet your criteria.

---------------------------------------------------
[ ] This mud has some donation, registration, and/or payment features.


(Sub options, click as many as apply)

{ } Registration is part of this game.

{ } Donations are accepted.

{ } Rewards are part of donations/registrations/payments.

{ } Rewards are not part of donations/registrations/payments.

{ } All rewards in this game can be received without registration.

{ } All rewards in this game can be received without donations.

(There could be several more option boxes but I think you get the picture)

[ ] This mud does not accept money (donations/registrations/credits) in any form.

---------------------------------------------------

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That's an easy one. What exactly is a reward? I guarantee you we could have an equally long thread as this one debating what exactly constitutes a reward.

Some people think it is not a reward if it is just a short cut. If the same thing can be obtained in game, then some people feel (perhaps rightly) it is not truly a reward to pay for it with money, credits, tokens, etc.

What about a special emote for "donators"? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so.

What about letting donators "re-string" an item (change the description) of their choice? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so.

What about a little medallion that you can wear that signifies you paid something? Is that a reward? Again, some people don't think so.

What about a list in the game or on the web site of people that bought merchandise or sent in money for hardware? Is that a reward? Some people don't think so, but some people do.

Regarding lists, special emotes, medallions, or other indicators of having bought things or "donated", let me draw a real life analogy. Why do you think people put those "Donator to the Fraternal Order of Police" stickers on their car? Because they are proud of their donation? Not likely. It is more likely that they think/hope a police officer will be less likely to give them a ticket when he or she sees the sticker. This is the same sort thing people receive if there is ANY notification anywhere of who sent money or bought anything. In my view, that is a reward.

What about getting more attention from the admins when they have a problem? Is that a reward? Some would say no, and some would say this would never happen. But it is ignorant of human nature to think some guy who sent in $500 for RAM isn't going to get the admin's ear a little quicker if he has a problem. In fact, this is precisely why I think it is bogus for anyone to claim there is ever "no reward" once money changes hands. As soon as there is a financial transaction, the likelihood of there being some kind of reward is highly likely. I mean MUDs aren't charities.

Fewer options that are actually accurate are better than more options that are inaccurate and prone to abuse and misinterpretation.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

This is an easy system. Yes. But it provides no useful information to the mudsearcher. I see two probems with it.

1) 99% of all muds would fall into category #1, essentailly making this an ALL selection anyway. I don't recall ever seeing a mud that outright 'rejected' donations.

2) For simplicity lets say that there are 2000 total muds. And 1750 of them select the first box. [I realize this is not consistent with my 99% statement above. But I think this makes my point nonetheless.] This method actually punishes the paymuds. Suppose I am a potential player and I believe that 'money accepted in some form' (specifically, a pay to register mud) is a signal for higher quality, so I select that option. Now when I get my results I have to wade through 1750 muds, most of which are your garden variety stock muds, with a volunteer staff, no fees, but donations are accepted (with or without some reward). Sure, other selection criterion will narrow the total results, but the free stock muds are lumped in with the quality paymuds. I think this is a waste of time for the potential player. If s/he is searching for a paymud (that is, a pay for registration mud), then s/he can get to your site much faster if you make it a box by itself.

That being said, I still think players should be able to select multiple 'types' in one search, as I stated before. Newworld's proposal with the 6 checkboxes is most appealing.

Detah@Arcania

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Precisely. Threshold's proposal would be a new, useless system equal and opposite to the current, useless system. Presently, all MUDs self-identify as "free" despite widely varying financial models and expectations of payment, and the proposal is to create a system where all MUDs end up marked "commercial". In either case, the criteria is neutered for searching purposes.

The various forms of "answer yes or no to these 4 or 5 questions" plans would actually differentiate between games. This would strengthen the site's utility as a resource to MUD enthusiasts looking for a specific type of game to play. Those that don't want to need to spend money can find their game, and those that prefer a pay-for-perks system can find their game.

Informative, accurate labeling.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

New Worlds rejects payment or donations of any kind. Many players have asked to donate and have been rejected. But I see what you mean, most would not.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Actually you are wrong there.

All Muds based on Circle code reject ALL donations. It's in the Circle license.

But it still leaves enough Muds to prove your point. :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

We have been around for almost two decades...

We are hosted on a dedicated server costing us almost 1k a year. We split the costs between fellow creators. While we are offered dollar after dollar on a daily basis, we say no because this type of debate is just not worth it.

SlothMUD III is a FREE mud and always will be. While we are a free, hobbyist type game, there is no denying our professional-like delivery on a high quality text MUD.

Years ago we lead the way with such things as Multi-classing and scan. Most recently we have lead the way with real time player maps() and real time stats, etc.


SlothMUD accepts NO donations, PERIOD.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

My Zmud (v7.20a) mudlist shows 216 Circle muds. Add two for NewWorlds and SlothMud III. SlothMud III is present in my Zmudlist. NewWorlds is not. I stand corrected. So, there are at least 218 muds which would fit the No Donations/Payment of any kind criteria. My primary point about the grouping of Pay-to-register muds with Donations-accepted/no rewards muds still stands.



PS. I think its very cool that you guys can afford to do that.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I created a new thread for the Professional vs Hobbyist discussion and moved the majority of posts that were discussing the issue into it, any further issues regarding that topic please direct there.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You guys need to quit giving Threshold credit for MY system! HAH! :D

I originally created that system because this discussion crops up every few months because some people have strong objections to several muds advertising themselves as "Free to play" although you can actually play them for free. If you have a codified system, do you know how often we'll be seeing posts like "Tavern of the Shattered Worlds Mud" marked themselves as "Donations accepted", but they give their players a little in-game tattoo for it? That's a game benefit!!! Or, IRE marked themselves as "Pay-For-Perks but Able-To-Play-For-Free", but that's a lie! We need to create a "Pay-for-Perks and Impossible-to-Level-without-20000-hours-played-a-day" check box just for them! Do you really think these issues won't crop up CONSTANTLY with any check box system that isn't clear and concise with absolutely no wiggle room?

That's my sole reason for suggestion a very simple, very easy to enforce system. It saves everyone a lot of time and effort, and in my opinion, it's the most helpful to people looking for a mud. They can and will be able to find a "free mud" with one simple click of a button. We can easily help enforce whether or not a mud takes money then, and there's really no beating around the bush on this one.

There's really no insidious motivation behind my suggestion. I suggested it because there's no wiggle room and no cheating in that system. This thread EXISTS because people are unhappy with how muds are classifying themselves. You realize that with more and more options, people are still going to click what they think will best advertise their mud. That's just one more thing to police, flame each other about, and argue over while being no more helpful than it is now.

I honestly didn't think it would spark some kind of debate. If our primary goal is to help players find games that cost no money at all, then this would solve the problem. I'm confused, though, as to why so many people who run "free games" are arguing against this option. If you're free, then you don't have to worry about it!

There's so many pay models out there, we have no hope of really describing them all. Some of them are truly unique, especially the ones in Asia. They really don't fit any of the western models at all because they are almost all hour/$ based. (I think this has something to do with the number of lan cafes around there.) Do we just keep adding to the various types of payment models there? I can think of about 10 right off the top of my head that exist on major games. Do we add a new type of payment model every time a person comes up with something new, or will games be forced to cram themselves into one of the models that, thus, poorly representing their muds? Or have we decided we don't care about muds once they hit a certain amount of commercialism? What would that threshold be?

If I wanted a free game, I want a game with no money involved, period. I don't want a game where money exchanges hands in an informal system, and there's absolutely no way to tell what the benefits are. There are plenty of muds out there that take no money and exist for free. This would be the easiest and best way to help players find them.

Everything else is just variations on a scale of taking money, no matter how lofty the ideals or pretty the package.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It provides the ONLY useful information: Does money change hands between players and administrators or not?

That is the MOST important question related to any financial element of a MUD.

All of the other options people have suggested are vague, give people tons of wiggle room, and create huge opportunities for liars to benefit.

A lot of us make games, right? Do you release a system into the game KNOWING it is completely abusable right off the bat? Of course not.

Why is there resistance to a simple, factual differentiation between MUDs that take money (in any form) and those who do not. It makes no sense to resist such a clear, concise distinction that is more explicit than anything that has been proposed or anything that has existed in the past.

Are there people who don't actually care about informing the players, but hope to gain some kind of marketing advantage over MUDs who take money, but just not in as explicit a manner as a commercial mud?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Does it make sense to you that others might think the same thing about a system that intentionally draws no distinction between a $10/month pay-to-play MUD, a pay-for-perks RP MUD where the only purchasable perks are equipment descriptions, a pay-for-perks competitive-PK MUD where it costs $500 to stand on an equal footing with other players, and a MUD that will do absolutely nothing in exchange for your money other than sell you a hat with their logo on it?

It is very easy to interpret that as an attempt to confuse and disinform players by making the "pay" category so broad as to be worse than useless. (Just as the "free" category presently is.)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You're going to have to explain how a system that reveals more information (several questions about financial models plus a text box for further comment) constitutes "resistance" to being honest about how much a game will or won't impact your wallet.

Some players enjoy a game where success doesn't depend on how much money has been spent. We cater to those players, and I want them to be able to find us. (Carrion Fields sells merchandise on our website, and will accept voluntary donations from players, though we don't solicit or reward them.) These players might be frustrated by your pay-for-perks system.

Other players are happy to spend money if it gets them ahead more quickly in the game. You presumably cater to those players, and want them to be able to find you. These players might be frustrated by our system.

Lumping us both together with one deliberately broad category that includes the vast majority of TMS's MUDs serves neither of those audiences. Players view the ability to buy a T-shirt differently from the ability to buy in-game enhancements. Having a few different descriptors helps the searcher find what they're looking for.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

This is impossible to disguise once you get the mud's website, though, so I don't really see how having it INACCURATE on TMS would help players. With my system, the player already goes in knowing that money is going to exchange hands. To get an ACCURATE representation of any mud's payment system, a player will have to go to the site and the game. If I understand correctly, IRE is a pay for perk system in which credits (what you pay for) help you level your skills. On Threshold, we have a pay for perk system that gets you things like housing or extra storage space. This may or may not help you level depending on how you play your character. Those two systems are vastly different. The thing they have in common is the fact that you don't HAVE to pay to play and that money changes hands. Also, in a game like KoL, you can get Mr. Accessory by players selling theirs for an obscene amount of meat (in game money), or you can get it by donating $10. Mr. Accessory is helpful, available without real life money, but not game-breakingly useful. Most people who have ascended or engage in PvP don't even use it. Is that a "donation" system, or is it a pay for perks system? If it is a pay for perks system, how does it even resemble that of IRE or Threshold?

In addition, there's even a multitude of "Donation" systems out there. For some, you get a graphic put next to your name on the mud's site. For others, you get nothing except the gratitude of an admin and possibly the rest of your playerbase. For others, they list their donators, so people can be thanked... and you have no way of gauging how this affects people's characters in general. Some "donation" systems reward players with things that they claim have no effect on gameplay. And yet on others, the IMMs will create goals for the MUD where donations reach a certain level (enough to buy more RAM, etc.), and the entire mud gets rewarded in various ways. The point is that there IS so many different systems. There's so many systems that bleed into each other. When does donation become more than just a donation? How do we police it on TMS?

Can you honestly tell me that you think that there won't be mud admins trying to police each other and stuff each other in categories that THEY see fit (just as is happening now) rather than what the admins believe is best for their muds? At least my system is actually helpful and not inaccurate.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Give me an example of a mud that doesn't clearly fit into one of these categories:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Well, I haven't played all the pay muds in the world, but let's just look at Fairytale Land, which is not a MUD but it IS an online RPG which is mostly played in Asia.

Fairytale Land has the most bizarre payment system I've ever seen. You have your free account. You have your paid account that is pay/hour, and it's pay for perks. Technically, they can click quite a number of those. The free account lets you play the game but for a certain number of hours per day. The pay account is pay by hour, so you have your free hours + your paid hours. Then, if you pay a certain amount up front, you get various in game rewards. LOTS of players never pay to play because the internet cafe buys the hours. Then they resell the hours to their customers. So, technically, you could play for free, but it's not really free. Where the heck do I list something like that?

Granted, I don't know of any muds that have a system like that, but what happens if one is created? If they decide to classify themselves as Payment/Donations accpted, rewarded in-game, someone could STILL argue that they're really Payment required to play, because in my opinion, they are even if it's the lan cafes that are paying for the hours, not the actual players.

Last but not least, with the above system, you can still have people trying to cram each other into various categories. Take IRE, for example... what if I absolutely suck and really can't level without paying? I would want them to be listed as payment required to play. (Purely hypothetical, not something I am claiming they do.) There are some people who believe that of the IRE games anyway, but I bet they will get listed as Payment/Donation accepted, rewarded in-game. Are there going to be multiple flame wars trying to force the_logos to change the listing? What of a mud that that accepts "donations" and gives people a little graphic by their name on their website or something? Does that count as in-game reward? What if they just get a little badge in-game that doesn't do anything but look pretty? The difference between the two, especially if it's not an RP mud, is almost non-existent. Are they both in game rewards or not? Technically, one IS in-game.

I guess I feel that the system simply won't offer the clarifications and the solutions that people think they will. I also think it will be impossible to police, creating even more animosity and anger between mud owners. I could be wrong, and I'm not saying that it's a BAD system. I just don't think it really solves anything.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I understand that the system that I and some others have suggested has less detail. I think "confuses" is the wrong word though, because I don't think you create confusion by being concise and accurate. Look again at the first choice:

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).

Anyone who reads that can already see from the choice that it is very inclusive. It is both obvious and explicitly stated that this includes payments, donations, and merchandise sales. So people already know this includes a lot of different things. That is where the text box or the MUD's web site comes into play to get the final details.

Because those extra options do not "reveal" extra information. They actually cloud the issue and introduce enormous room for misinterpretation (either deliberate or accidental), misunderstandings, or out right lying.

Those 4 options give MUDs that sell merchandise an ENORMOUS loophole. It allows them to claim they do not accept payment or donations, but they do. Selling merchandise is accepting payment.

Furthermore, this whole issue of rewarded or not-rewarded in game is a total nightmare. Who is going to define exactly what "rewarding in game" really means? I already proved there are a ton of different ways this can be interpreted. Creating specific search options for it creates a much higher implication of truth and accuracy than what people simply write in their mud description. Therefore, there is no logical or reasonable way to have check boxes that differentiate between games that "reward in game" or not.


And a lot of people DON'T view those things differently. But the larger point is, the multiple options don't serve ANYONE, because they simply create confusion and wiggle room. Further, they cloud the REAL issue, which is a player being able to distinguish between games that absolutely never take money for any reason, and those who do.

I think you create a weird implication when you speak of being "lumped together" with pay for perks muds as if you're being tossed into a pit with lepers. You aren't being "lumped together" with them any more than you are "lumped together" with them by being listed on TMS. When you make comments like that, it implies a more personal motive than simply wanting to give players useful information.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

This is still not an meaningful argument. No set of selection options prevents lying, and I don't see how the four-options-plus-text-box system rewards liars any more than yours does.

You're right, and because of the obvious likelihood of better customer service for supporters of the MUD, I suspect this argument is not just correct but also relevant.

I think it would be worth modifying the four-option proposal to be inclusive of that; something like "payments / donations / merchandise sales accepted, rewarded in-game" and "payments / donations / merchandise sales accepted, not rewarded in-game". Armed with that information, one can judge the risk of preferential treatment for purchasers for oneself; if one is greatly concerned, that's what "no money accepted" is for.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Because you can't wiggle out of these options:

[ ] Money accepted in some form (payment, donations, sale of merchandise).

[ ] No money accepted in any form.

Either money changes hands or it doesn't. If someone wants to cheat the system, they aren't going to be able to defend themselves by arguing semantics. They'll be caught in an outright lie.

I still think differentiating between "rewarded in game" and "not rewarded in game" is not only impossible, but a road to absolute horror for these forums. There is no way in a million years we could reach any sort of consensus on what "rewarded in game" really means, and that just means countless threads with people getting angry about it.

Also, players themselves will have different definitions for it, and it is not helpful to give them a checkbox for "not rewarded in game" when we know in advance that is a term with many different meanings.

Creating explicit checkboxes we know are extremely unreliable is irresponsible at best and deceptive at worst.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I don't really agree. If anything at all happens in the game consequent to your funds transfer, that's a reward in-game. Yes, I'll go so far as to include having your character struck by lightning, dismembered, etc. Shall we generalize the language to "in-game consequences", "no in-game consequences"?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

You can play for free, therefore "payment required to play" does not apply:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

A mud using such a payment system would probably want to elaborate in the text area as well, but that would be their choice. All a player needs to know is that it's possible to play for free, but that they can make payments for more goodies.

Fortunately it's very easy to prove that the IRE games can be played without payments or donations - therefore:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

The website is not within the game (assuming its a regular mud and not a website game), therefore:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

TEXT AREA: Donations are rewarded with a trophy graphic on the website

They get it in-game, therefore:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

TEXT AREA: In-game rewards are purely cosmetic

That's because they're both extreme borderline cases. Despite that, the four-option system is sufficiently clear that there's no difficulty deciding which category the above two examples fall into. This results in a system that's very simple to police, while also increasing the transparency for players - and with the text area as well, it allows muds to clarify their precise model and ensure that they aren't misrepresented.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Ahhh! I missed something really vital about this system. :D

I didn't realize we got a box to type all sorts of stuff in, too. Is this the system that's going into place?

Would it be bad to go the route of "Money accepted"/"No money accepted" and use the box system? It seems like if we're going to be typing in our transaction types, making the search as basic as possible is the best idea, the most easily policed, and helps people doing searches the most.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Here is yet another reason the 2, explicit, not wiggle-able options is better:
That seems like a slam dunk really. The text box should ADD TO the information, not be something people have to use to SUBTRACT from the misinformation and imprecise nature of the vaguely specific 4 option list.

The 4 options are totally ambiguous and multiple people have shown how easily they can be misinterpreted. That is why they are not as good as the very precise and explicit 2 options.

Providing more options at the expensive of accuracy is not a good trade off.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Well these are all still just suggestions right now, but this system was originally Lasher's idea and seems to be the most popular choice within this thread.

I think it's better to give more options if possible, as long as those options are unambigious. My original proposal had 12 choices, but was a bit ambigious, which would have made it difficult to police. The four choices are completely unambigious however, and while some people might be unhappy with their classification at least it's not open to misinterpretation.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Only, I think, if you want to be intentionally argumentative. I think
that there is an understanding in the mud world about
what an in-game reward is, and it can be gleaned from
the statements made by a Diku author:

"I feel it is important that I make clear how I see the limits of the license; You should know I am not against donations as such, and he may sell his merchandise as he pleases, but he may not use the game directly for this. The way I usually define this is if the players get some tangible modification within the game for their donations. Then it becomes commercialized. They pay for a service that is within the game."
-- Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt

While not every mud is subject to Diku licensing, nor does every
member of the mud community necessarily agree with Staerfeldt's
comments, I think this aptly sums up the common-sense and generally
accepted idea of what an in-game reward is.


It is a reward.


It is a reward.


It is a reward.


It is a reward.


It is a reward.


Since it falls outside what Staerfeldt defined as an in-game reward, I'm
inclined to say no. A policy that promises you get more prompt/thorough attention
from admins if you donate does not qualify as a reward.

If you think this merchandise/support thing is so important, then let's just
add check boxes:

[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[ ] Payment and/or donation accepted for out-of-game merchandise.
[ ] Payment and/or donation accepted for enhanced admin support.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Neither Payment nor donations accepted.


A bit silly, if you ask me, but your objections argue for *more*
options, not *fewer*. I think you're the only one who misses that.


-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

The four options are not misleading. They are crystal clear and not open to (mis)interpretation. If you disagree, then give me an example of a mud which isn't clearly covered by the four choice solution.

The text area, however, could easily be used for technically true yet misleading information. That is why I was against using the text area on its own. When used in combination with the four options, however, it provides what I consider to be the best compromise.

When looking for a game, I would prefer one in which you cannot purchase in-game benefits. I do not care if you can buy out-of-game benefits such as mugs and t-shirts, nor if you can donate and get nothing in return. Under the four option solution I could click the last two boxes and it would bring up the majority of muds. Under your proposal, I would have to manually go through every listing.

That is not helpful for players. There is absolutely no reason to leave out unambigious search options for things that directly impact the player.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Same here, though strangely enough, I might also search for pure pay-required games as well. I have nothing against paying for a good product if I like the value for my money, and the payment scheme is fair and open (i.e., one-time or recurring, with the only modification being discounts for volume).

So yes, I've decided I like the 4 over the 2.

I'm far more worried about unfair treatment over some OOC forum posting, or some OOC guild playteam than I would be over *any* prejudice due to out-of-game donations/purchases.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I tend to agree-- I've played games that are free, and games where a flat fee gets you 'everything', but I'm personally very wary of models where the more you spend the more you get, largely due to arms races. However, the pay-for-perks model is successful in the market, so not everyone agrees with you and I. That said, a KaVir-esque system would be very useful if I was searching, and equally useful to a different player who was specifically looking for a pay-for-perks game.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I don't think Lasher's finalized any decisions, but I think everyone's been in agreement that an optional box for refinement is an improvement.

I disagree, simply because TMS presently has about 1750 MUDs listed, and "No money accepted" applies to very few MUDs-- CircleMUDs being the prominent exception, and that's only about 3%. The vast majority of MUDs won't return a voluntary check to help pay fo rthe server, for example.

A system like Kavir's provides a lot more information-- if you only want MUDs that won't accept money in any form, you check only that box and you only get those games. The two-box system is essentially a crippled version of a system like the one KaVir has mentioned, or a multiple binary-choice system like:

[y/n] One-time or recurring fee required
[y/n] In-game rewards available for purchase
[y/n] Payment and/or donations accepted

A Circle MUD would answer n/n/n, IRE would answer n/y/y, we would answer n/n/y, DragonRealms would answer y/y/y, etc. Anyone could elaborate as needed in the text box.

The two-box system lumps nearly all games into one category, which is useless for searching unless you only want the "n/n/n" games.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Great discussion folks!

I'd be satisfied with the four payment option of:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

Providing an additional text field where the game owner could elaborate on how much their game truly costs or what type of rewards are received for donations would save me time in having to seek that information from their website.

Someone else mentioned this earlier, but would it be feasible to have the search engine allow someone to select more than one option when searching for MUDs?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Just to clarify, New Worlds is not a Circle code mud. Check the link for more info.

As for the affording, it is very expensive but NW costs are covered by a sponsoring company and luckily enough none of this reflects over to the players. Without the sponsor though, I can tell you it could not be afforded. Which brings up a strange argument: is NW really free since the sponsor is virtually paying for all the players to play?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I disagree, even though my own Mud belongs to the small category No money accepted in any form, which presumably would benefit from a 2-box system.

Having a search option that puts over 80% of all Muds in the same category is not helpful for a player in search of a new Mud, even with the additional text box. It is just as useless as the present situation where most commercial Muds represent themselves as 'Free to play'.

The 4 options are very precise and explicit, and will help narrow down the searches. Adding a Textbox to that, gives the Mudowner a chance to further describe their system, and covers all bases.

EDIT:
Doing a search myself, I'd go for either the first option Payment required to play?, the second Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game, or the last one No Payment / Donations accepted, period.. I am not against paying for a good product. What I dislike is the concept of paying to get advantages over other players. To me a Mud is a skill game.

However, the pay-for-perks system is obviously a very popular one, which means that a lot of people would choose that option instead.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

That is really a strange argument.

Our coder is paying for the server out of his own pocket. Does that make 4D less free since he is virtually paying for all the players to play?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Are these so accurate?

Lets look at it...

What if i have a mud that accept donations that are NOT money. And we reward this with perks in-game.

Or we reward players in-game from clicking on advertisement links on our website (possibly buying things from other sites to get rewarded). That it is a payforperks thing that people may dislike and may want to filter away.

To me, it just smells that people want to "hide" information. I can understand why some commercial games really argue this to "hide" their payment model in the search engines. They would loose some traffic UNDOUBTLY from having to list their game as a particular type of payment model and not just as a "bunched together" money involved listing. (Doesn't matter if they show their model in their game on the very first page... they still would loose that first impression from a possible customer).

The more options to search for, the better it is and the bigger chance a mud has to configure its listing to suit it the best. And a possible player have a much greater chance to find a mud that suits his/her preferences, which is what this site is all about i hope.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Oops, I just noticed a fallacy both in Detah's calculations and in my post a bit above, where I just 'inherited' her figures.

The fact that CIRCLE has a more strict license than the other DIKU derived codebases, doesn't mean that all of those other MUDS accept donations. The DIKU license only states that you cannot give in-game rewards for donations, making it perfectly legit to sell mousepads and other stuff from the website.

And even so I don't think that the majority of the DIKU based Muds rely on donations at all. In fact I believe that the majority of them don't.

Consequently all those would click the No Donations/Payment of any kind button too, giving a considerably higher figure.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

How would this work with MUDs that occasionally do accept donations? Would there be a "freeze time" during which the setting cannot be changed? If a MUD collects donations for a new server (either for in-game perks or for no perks) today, what should it be classified 1 year from now, if it has not accepted any money since?

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

TEXT BOX: Donations only accepted during the Oktoberfest. Rewarded with a beer glass avatar on your website forum account.

Assuming that collecting the donations is a one-off thing, then it'd be handled like any other listing update. If you previously had a stock world but then replaced it with an original one, you'd change the listing. If you were previously running a RP encouraged mud, but then made roleplaying mandatory, you'd change the listing. If you were previously running an unrestricted PK mud but then added restrictions, you'd change the listing. And if you were previously accepting donations, but then stopped, you'd change the listing.

Thus the listing would initially state:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

TEXT BOX: Only accepting donations until we've enough for a new server.

And once you'd stopped collecting donations (assuming you really WERE stopping):

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[X] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

If you were planning to collect more donations in the future, you'd instead update the listing to:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

TEXT BOX: Donations occasionally accepted, when server updates are required


As I mentioned earlier though, this isn't a problem specific to the payment model. Imagine the following:

[ ] Unrestricted playerkilling.
[X] Restricted playerkilling.
[ ] No playerkilling.

TEXT BOX: Normally non-PK, but every Sunday is a free-for-all unrestricted deathmatch.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

What is best for a mud isn't always the best for the people using TMS to search for muds.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It might sound strange, but there are actually ways I could envision it not being "free":To me, these are examples of "payment in kind" (or real payments in the first case). Once you start requiring a user to do something that supports the sponsor, then it starts crossing the line.

And, I'm talking about using the very charged term "free" here.

But sponsorship itself is not a problem, nor is passive advertising.

An interesting question is ads in-game... Not sure about that one. Probably not... (because I could gag them perhaps) but it would be real annoying :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I really REALLY think this whole thing with the mousepads and website merchandise sales is ridiculous and shouldn't be considered in the options. It just tosses a lot of muck into it. If you are REQUIRED to buy a mousepad in order to play the game, then you are required to .. BUY .. to PLAY. It doesn't matter that it's a mousepad, or an in-game token - it's the "required" and "buy" which are the operative words here.

Anyone can go to cafe press. You aren't required to be a game player, in order to buy a particular game's mousepad.

The notion that you have to pay -something- in order to make use of the -game- and all its benefits, is what matters. Cafe press, t-shirts, mousepads, field trips to the zoo, are not MUDs. They are not bits of code on computers, they have nothing to do with game play. The only time they matter *at all* is when their purchase is required in exchange for some game benefit; in which case, the "payment required for benefits" applies. If a game is completely and totally free to play, and they don't accept donations to help the server costs, BUT they DO allow you to buy a t-shirt on their website, then yes - the game is 100% free to play, with no donations accepted. Merchandise sales are merchandise sales, they're not game sales. Merchandise != MUD

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Thanks for clarifying this, atleast I know now how to list our MUD.

Lasher - If this gets implemented, would it be possible to post some statistics (say 3 months or 6 months from now) about what kind of search criteria people have been using? That way, we would have more realistic data whether the typical TMS user really finds these "payment/free" options worthwhile.
Something along the line with: Of the queries for the past 3 months, 35% of the searches were based on category, 25.8% of searches were based on Rolepaying, and 20.3% of searches were based on payment options.

-- Gore @ BatMUD

P.s. Kudos to KaVir for mentioning Oktoberfest. I already have a table booked there :)

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

It's already covered by the existing proposal - the "Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game" option, and people can use the text area to clarify if they wish.

It's what matters to you, and what matters to me. But some people want to know whether any money is involved at all, the implication being that if the players are giving money to the mud owner for any reason, it may indirectly influence players within the game.

Having it as two options means that people like you and I can search as follows:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[X] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[X] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

While those who want to avoid games where any money changes hands can search as follows:

[ ] Payment required to play?
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, rewarded in-game.
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted, not rewarded in-game.
[X] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

Same here, in the Fischer-Vroni tent. They serve the best beer - Augustiner. Lecker.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Yes, silly argument.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Considering the fact that merchandise is a very common business model for many forms of online entertainment, I don't think you can say that whatsoever. A MUD that sells merchandise may use all manner of enticements and encouragements to pressure or "suggest" that people buy merchandise.

Once money changes hands between player and admin, it changes the relationship significantly. It becomes a business relationship, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Furthermore, the issue of "rewarded in game" has *STILL* not been resolved. There are still a zillion different interpretations for "rewarded in game", and having that in the options is just begging for flame wars in the future. Doing something on purpose, in advance, that we KNOW will cause flame wars is not wise.

There is only one distinction that can be made clearly and accurately: does money ever change hands between players and admins.

The more I read this thread, the less it sounds like trying to educate players with valuable information and the more it sounds like specific MUDS with specific payment models jockeying for changes that will show THEIR MUD in the best light. That is definitely not a good reason to make a change to the search options.

We are better off with no changes, and just letting MUDs describe themselves in their own words than adding inaccurate, vague search options that were designed in a biased manner to benefit 5-10 people who yelled the loudest.

But if there MUST be options added, then only add options that are factual, accurate, and verifiable and do not have vague, subjective terms.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I have to agree fully with that sentiment.