In the absence of Bruce Willis, I'll go with Clint.

Normally, I do not involve myself in threads such as these, however, Shao's latest post required my input.

Of all those listed, only Stallone, and to a lesser extent, Lee is mentionable.

Stallone is a shichidan (seventh dan) of Aikido, either a derivation or a "sister art" to the Art that I follow - aikijujutsu. Lee created his own Art. The rest are nothing more then special affects wonders. While Chan (Not Jacky Chen, twip, Jackie Chan) has some ability according to what I understand, it is at best a sandan - a third dan.

The rest are inconsequential - even Jet Li. Van Damne (Not Damn, again, twip) supposedly has some talent, but Stallone challenged him to a fight - and Van Damne ran away.

And, they are movie stars. To quote my sensei, "My training is not for making money. It is to hone the soul - and the body". Not only do most follow hideously bastardized Americanized Arts (For the record, I an American. But most arts have been utterly....destroyed in America. I'll rant about this later.), but their form is a joke, excluding Stallone and Lee. If my, or any student of the Arts, form was as bad as any of the non-excluded actors, my Sensei (a kudan, mind you) would likely expel me/student from the Art.

There is no special affects. Note the form, the stance. Even a sandan has better form then any actor (excluding Lee and Stallone, again) mentioned on the thread or the poll.

I am shocked that you overlooked Chow Yun Fat. From his work in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I am somewhat impressed. If that was him performing the kata, and not a stunt-double. If it was, I have high hopes for his future career.

/End Rant.

-D

In spite of all that's been said, for sheer "wow that impressed me on-screen", I would vote Jet Li, so my vote's a null one.

But if we were voting for real people, I'd say Akuma. What do you mean, "he's not real"?

Kas.

I'd vote for Jet Li too - and I hardly consider him "inconsequential". He started training at the Beijing Wushu Academy aged 9, won his first championship at the age of 11, and by the age of 18 had won the gold medal for All-Round National Champion 5 years running. He also went on to represent his country in a world tour that included a performance on the White House lawn for the American president, Richard Nixon.

He's been in around 35 movies and was considered one of the greatest starts in Hong Kong in the 80's and 90's - but he was a national hero long before then. His movies might have a lot of special affects in them, but then that's the way Hong Kong movies tend to be. He didn't use special effects to win 5 gold medals, though.

Apart from KaVir's correction on Jet Li, there's also another one missing here who's not your average SFX actor: Steven Seagal.

Steven was the first foreigner ever to own and operate an Aikido dojo in Japan. Known as "Master Take Shigemichi", he was the chief instructor at the Aikido Tenshin Dojo in the city of Osaka. He's 7th Dan IIRC.

I would go with Jet Li also

Steven Seagal is correct. I always get Stallone and Seagal confused.

As for KaV's Jet Li comments - Chow Yun Fat has an equally impressive resume. Why was he not on the list, then?

-D

I didn't create the list. I was just refuting the claim that Jet Li was "inconsequential".

Mmm. Point taken, KaVir.

However, he started at 9. The youngest age for beginning acceptance of any serious Art I've seen yet is 14.

Before then, it is generally considered to be too young to fully comprehend the concepts taught. I'd not expect a 9 year old to understand the concept of a honed spirit.

-D

But perhaps the most interesting thing in this poll is that Shao is going to kill over 40% of the people that voted.

Kas.

Then you should look around more. I've seen plenty of styles which start training as young as 4 or 5.

I reiterate, KaVir, serious art. Not some Americanized, bastardized kiddie art.

-D

The original Shaolin Temple teaches children from the age of 6 onwards - those who show exceptional skill are offered the monk hood at the age of 18.

Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to an extent, yes.

However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old in Iaijutsu.

-D

> Are we speaking of -do (soft) arts, KaVir? If so, then to
> an extent, yes.

We're speaking of Shaolin kung-fu, which was the original form of kung-fu. Like most martial arts, it incorporates elements of both hard and soft:



> However, I challenge you to show me one 6, or 9, year old
> in Iaijutsu.

I fail to see your point. You implied that Jet Li was inconsequential because he started training at 9, and that supposedly "serious" martial arts don't train those younger than 14. You've also mentioned that you don't consider the "Americanised" versions to be "serious" martial arts.

Yet Shaolin kung-fu - the original kung-fu - trains those as young as 6 (and it's certainly not "Americanised"). Are you now claiming that in order to be considered a "serious" martial art, it must consist entirely of killing your opponent while drawing your sword? (for those who don't know, Iaijutsu is a form of martial arts centered on the use of the Daito, and consists of a simultaneous drawing/cutting motion, followed by ritually cleaning the blood from the blade, and then returning the sword to its scabbard).

Interesting, KaVir. I'll take a look at it later.

From what I've seen, understood, and experienced, any art that accepts people earlier then the early to mid teens tends to be a wee bit "soft", to be blunt.

Iaijutsu (Not Iaido. Significant difference.) tends to be a good example of this - Look at the philosophy. I _know_ I would _not_ want any of my small cousins, nephews, or relations that are not at least in their mid teens following Iaijutsu. While there are exceptions to the rule, not many young people that I know are mature enough _and have the strength of will_ to understand the core of what is being taught.

Let me rephrase - how many 6 year olds do you see being taught to kill? While some young folk may be mature enough to understand what is being taught, many do not yet understand _why_ it is being taught. And this is a hard topic to express - it is something understood at an almost unconscious level even by my own Sensei. He explained it fairly well, but I managed to only remember the geist of what he said. Yes, there is a definite sort of ageism - and I am the first to admit, there are definitely 14 year olds that should not be learning martial arts. (In fact, we have a teenager on these boards that should be held back at least 20 miles from the nearest Sensei, imo.) However, age is as close as anyone can come to a generic "maturity indicator". And even then - it sucks as an indicator.

As a personal sidenote to KaVir: I am personally surprised you have heard of Iaijutsu. Any prior martial arts training? Or just a casual interest? When I say 'Iaijutsu' ('net or RL), most people look at me odd, and proclaim me an idiot who has never trained in his life.

-D

But to be equally blunt, so what?  You seem to imply that "hard" martial arts are somehow better than "soft" ones, when in my experience that's simply not the case (yes, I've fought in mixed-style tournaments, up to medium-contact - although I've witnessed numerous full-contact fights as well).  I tend to favour soft blocks coupled with hard attacks (eg a single-whip followed by an elbow to the face - or a palm-strike to the solar-plexus if I don't want to cause serious injury), but the two styles are generally inseparable - you need both in any martial art.

And yes, children should try to avoid many of the "hard" techniques while their bodies are still growing, or they can damage themselves; it's not about damaging others.  The soft techniques can be just as dangerous in that respect.

I trained in kung-fu (a mixture of styles) for 3 years and a sort of kickboxing/kung-fu hybrid style for 7 years (with a 1-year crossover - so a total of 9 years).  I started at the age of 12, and stopped at the age of 21 (when I left University).  I keep meaning to start again, but never get around to it.  The styles I learned consisted of a mixture of hard and soft techniques, including a number of moves which can kill or break bones (one that I always remember is a hard-block against a kick, with a follow-up that breaks both of your opponents legs!).  We also learned a few weapons, although the closest I came to a sword was the Boken.  I used to be quite good with Tonfa, though.

However to be fair my knowledge of Iaijutsu comes from a roleplaying game.  Learning how to kill someone as quickly as possible with a sword isn't a very useful skill in the real world, but it comes in very handy in a fantasy RPG - or a mud (I'm sure you're familiar with the "fastdraw" skill in GodWars).

"...the concepts of hard/soft internal/external are finding fewer proponents among senior martial artists. Both conceptual twins are impossible to separate in reality, and masters will generally acknowledge that any distinction is largely only a matter of subjective interpretation. Arguments about the reality of the concepts are often waged by novices and philosophical dilettantes, ignorant of the inseparable nature of duality."

For Kung Fu, possibly KaVir.

However, remember that I am using "soft/hard" in the context of -do and -jutsu here. Again, my experience has been limited to Japanese styles that used the Japanese terms exclusively - -Jutsu implies a war form, a form whose intent is to kill or disable ones opponent through any means necessary. -Do implies a sport, a spiritual thing. Aiki-DO is beautiful. But it has weaknesses, and it lacks several Aiki-juJUTSU holds that can be devastating.

I think I was wrong in my intepretation of soft/hard as per -do/-jutsu. Probably was, in fact. However, my sensei - a kudan, mind you - does acknowledge the difference between the style he uses, Iaijutsu, from Iaido. I'll go out on a limb, and assume a kudan can possibly know what he is talking about. However, in my experience, the usage of 'soft/hard' has had only limited use. Apparently, I misunderstood their usage - but that does not weaken my point any. Unless, KaVir, you are claiming that it would be a _good thing_ to teach a kindergartener or 1st grader (For the US types)/6 year old the pin I described in my previous post? If so, then I must take up a vast issue with you there.

-D

Nope, my only argument is that a martial art isn't any less "serious" just because it is taught to children, and that some combination of both "hard" and "soft" are necessary for an effective fighting style.

The "do" and "jutsu" forms are parts of Japanese martial arts, while Kung-fu is Chinese. Furthermore, the use of "do" and "jutsu" is a modern western convention which was introduced by Donn Draegger, and not something that reflects on the historical usage of the suffixes.

Again, I have no experience with non-Japanese styles, which Kung Fu is definitely not Japanese in origin - it is Chinese, as we seem to keep repeating.

A very good convention, mind you. -points to previous examples of his mistaken hard art assumption-.

-D

You lie.

The tensile strength and density of metals used in armor is far stronger then that of human flesh and bone. It is so much stronger in fact that if a human could actually use/attain/etc. the necessary power in order to pierce metal armor, the bones would shatter, and the flesh would be nothing more than pulp. And please, do not claim you meant a quarter-inch tin armor or something. Have at least the dignity to admit your dishonesty.

I think this speaks volumes of any experience you claim.

-D

While my own experience is primarily with Korean "kicking" (the details not being important because I've no need to claim that the water is either cold or deep.)

The best martial advice I've ever heard came from my DI, Sgt. Tibedoux. Tib was a lee-zee-anna boy to the core, and he taught us that the best move we could do was to quickly place our dogtags into our mouths and bite down. Thus saving the medic some work.

As Tib would say, "You go han' han' cowmbat, you dea! Member' you go han' han', you gunna die. Bess' weapun fo' han' han' cowmbat is a loaded fowty-fi, Member' tow brin' yo' loaded fowty fi to any han' han' combat."

~Mandrake

As long as we are comparing styles, I thought I would throw my own 2 cents in.  I have been training in various martial arts for over 14 years and have my own opinions.

Mostly, I've only seen a discussion of the "Eastern" arts, but there are many others that are quite formidable and therefore definitely worth mention.  My own opinion of the eastern arts is that they are too rooted in tradition and are not very practical for today's fighter.  If you disagree with me then you can take it up with Bruce Lee, who developed Jeet Kune Do, because HE felt most martials arts were impractical.  JKD is widely accepted as a major breakthrough in bringing MA into the 20th century.

Speaking of major breakthroughs, everyone discovered in the first five UFCs how great Brazilian Ju Jitsu was for a one-on-one fight.  Granted, BJJ has its limitations, especially when fighting multiple opponents.  However, BJJ is an invaluable tool when the fight heads onto the ground (as many of them do).

Finally, though it has been around for over 50 years, Krav Maga is recently starting to get some serious attention.  This is because it is one of the most effective, realistic fighting techniques ever developed.  Created for the Israeli Defense Forces, Krav Maga is now taught to law enforcement agencies around the globe (including counter-terrorism and S.W.A.T. teams).  The "traditional" arts have a lot to offer in the way of discipline, flexibility, and both mental and physical fitness.  However, if you are looking to kick some ass and defend yourself against a mugger, Krav Maga is definitely for you.



Therefore, any discussion regarding what martial arts will make you the best fighter that does not mention JKD, BJJ, and KM is seriously lacking in the realism department.

You never heard about okinawa te ,did you ? they were slaying armored samurai with one blow with hand. If you never knew,after some time (bleh,rather long time) human's hand can become HARDER then metal. yep yep. Thats right. harder.then.metal.

dont make any judgements too quickly.

Wow. I never expected this level of stupidity from even you, Shao. The human hand cannot approach the level of "hardness" as to equal metal. It is a structural/material impossility using simple physics and material density. Human flesh is extremely weak structurally - its main intent is to "hold stuff in", so to speak. While it can be "hardened" via calluses and/or scar tissue, it cannot become even as strong as a hardwood when compared in a density and/or strength test. And definitely not a metal. Human bone, no matter how dense it is, cannot approach the structural density and tensile strength of tempered metal. One of the most known "feats" of martial artists is breaking wood with their bare hands. The reasoning is simple - wood has a grain. Watch the wood break - it breaks along the grain of the wood. If the wood had no grain, a la metal, the persons fist would likely be damaged. All it takes is mere focus to a single point of the power behind the punch, and the force will quite often break the wood along the grain. It takes conditioning to not damage the hand, however. But, the human hand cannot be conditioned to pierce metal.

Human flesh and bone has severe limitations on how strong it can be conditioned. Tempered metal should not have the weak spots that can be seen in wood grains. If you want to argue that they were breaking through improperly tempered metal, then sure, I can punch a hole through a tank. Shao, I can honestly say you have no martial arts experience from this conversation. Human flesh and bone cannot ever be conditioned to be harder then tempered metal. Even initiates to many arts realize that within a few months of training. I think KaVir, and others, will agree with me here when I say you are utterly full of it - both in your claims of martial arts experience, and your claims of the human hand.

-D

Human hands pierce metal armor?
Tensile strength?  What does a material's tensile strength have to do with a shearing action?  Wouldn't that be its shear stress or bending stress?

If martial artists can "focus" a blow to hit the grain of wood, and stress (no matter what regime) is expressed as allowable force over area.....could not the area of the blow be small enough to exceed a material's yield strength?

What is tempered metal?  Is it heat tempered, work hardened, annealed, quenched, forged, or just refined?  Hardened metals tend to be much more brittle than their unhardened ductile versions.  They are also more scratch resistant, yet fail at lower stresses.  Wouldn't that make them more likely to fail from a blunt blow?

Who's master / trainer is a higher "daaaaaaaaaan"?  I'm sure that figures in to all this somehow too.
~Mandrake

Used the improper term for the meaning. I do that alot - see this thread.

It's not that simple. Properly forged and tempered metal does not have a "grain" or a "weak point" to strike and break as martial artists do with wood. You'd have to focus it to such a small point that you'd be basically hitting it with a tiny chisel - and that really wouldn't work very well in the end.

"Temper" was used in a generic manner. But, even then, unless we are talking about something totally and utterly out of the bounds of this conversation, Shao is lieing outright.

That is largely irrelevant. If Shao even follows an art, it probably refers to itself in terms of "Belts", with full-fledged "brown belts with red tips" or whatever.

-D

I'd have to go with Jet Li, and if you havn't seen Dragons of the Orient yet... do so it'll give you a little insight on where Jet Li is comming from.

now im sure you know nothing of japans history,Dulan...
Okinawa's peasants unarmed and unarmored were resisting samurai's invasion for about 5 years. Pretty long time for a bunch of untrained peasants,eh ?
If hand is specially practiced and trained,even without any special concentration of ki,it can pierce metal armor.
Or you dont believe that it is possible to break a concrete slab with a hand too ?
you pretty closely resemble one of my classmates now.he too doesnt likes me too much,and in discussion what best submachine gun is (aksu vs mp5) he was arguing for half a hour, even when all the class already was against him,just to yell 'liar !' at me. this is moronish,dont you agree ?
human body has much more applications then eating/sleeping/yelling. properly trained human really canbreak metal/stone. sure,im not speaking about 5meters thick titanium/ceram steel or some depleted uranium armor. But it IS possible. heh,i seen that myself. so you can yell 'liar' as long as you can,i dont care.

Shao, I can break concrete slabs with my hands. 4 at once of 3" thicknesses. I can break ice, as well. However, do you know _why_ they can be broken? They are porous materials. They "want" (Well, not really, but relatively vs metal) to give way. Metal has a molecular structure that is tight-knit and does not want to give way.

Which province, which date, which ruler, and which dynasty? There are several instances of this in Japan. Also, this is irrelevant to the argument. Any reason why you are trying to bring it off-topic, Shao? Fear, maybe?

Wrong. I've checked with a physics Ph.D at my university on this matter. Go check with an equivalently-knowledgeable Physics person in your area. He/she will confirm that statement - the human hand cannot be conditioned to break metal.

I can do this myself. It is because concrete is a porous material. Metal is not.

Oh? I see one person against me. You. A twit who has no clue whatsoever about what the human body is and is not capable of. And, again, this is irrelevant to the argument. Why do you bring up so much irrelevant crap, Shao?

Yeah. Sex. Stone is theoretically possible - unless we are arguing thin tin or some crap, metal is not.

You are a liar, or it was a hoax. Period. It is a physical impossibility for a human hand to break anything that is commonly considered metal armor.

-D

Really ? Ask your physics teacher ? Or scientist ?
Is it possible for a man to stop a katana with a hand ?
Is it possible for a man to last w/o breathing for more then hour ?
Is it possible for a man to move something w/o touching it ?
Is it possible for a man to kill someone simply by pressing,not hitting,some specific points on his body ?

This list can be continued almost endlessly.Everything listed here IS possible.And was done already.

Physics cannot explain everything, Dulan. Besides,the thing about we are now arguing IS explainable.
Bullet is made of lead.How can it pierce steel ? Lead is softer then steel,if you didnt knew.

If you cannot believe me, take any book describing approximately 16 century,maybe 17,not sure,and Satsuma's invasions of Okinawa. Read a bit about Okinawa Te,and then speak further. And,please,stop hurling your stupid insults at me. They make me laugh.


ps.speaking about stone,is it possible for you to break a brick wall with a FINGER ? made from double bricks.

Fixed the topic title. Figured if it must stay around, it can at least be readable.

Shao, you keep saying all of these things are possible, but have you actually seen them done? I have seen many amazing feats at martial arts demonstrations, but none that defy the laws of science. If the only "proof" is from hearsay, or vague 17th century writings based on hearsay, I don't think you have much of a case. If the reason people don't demonstrate such feats as piercing armor and stopping blades and catching bullets in their teeth is because it is some sacred martial arts secret, why are you privy to such knowledge without such secrecy? None of it makes any sense.

Concrete and ice break because they are actually pretty weak in tension. When you strike a slab it puts the surface you strike into compression and the opposite surface into tension. Metal being relatively strong in both compression and tension is a different story. Metal also has the potential of being much less rigid, therefore absorbing more of the impact by denting and bending rather than cracking.

Bullets work because force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration. Lead is fairly dense, and therefore has pretty good mass compared to a lot of other materials. When fired a bullet has an amazing amount of acceleration. These combined give a bullet a lot of force. Apply this force to a small area and there you go. The human hand is not terribly massive and can certainly not reach the acceleration potential of a bullet.

With two hands - yes. My sensei demonstrated this to the class. However, it is more efficient and effective to dodge and counter rather then bother with a fancy move that takes years of training to even be somewhat usable.

Sure. If he's dead. That's it. No ifs, ands, or buts. Human consumption of oxygen, even in a near-catatonic state, has a maximum (Absolute maximum) of around 15 minutes before death sets in.

Let's not get into an argument about telekinesis, please. I am agnostic - that should speak volumes about me.

An impossibility. If this were true, it would be in every single serious martial art. It would be unspeakably popular.

Prove it. Show me reliable cites. Do not use this appeal to anonymous authority - show me information. Prove what you claim.

Physics cannot explain everything. But it can explain everything in this area - and it is impossible according to current day physics.

And what happens to the bullet after it pierces the steel, Shao? Yes, that's what I thought. If your hand could even attain the necessary velocity to puncture steel, there would be very little left that could be called a hand - it'd be a bloody mess of shattered bones and pulped flesh.

Would a godan in Okinawa-te be enough for you, Shao? The godan laughed - hard - when he heard these claims.

You are a liar, a twit, a twink, a spammer, and more. Enough said.

That wall is either "setup" so it collapses with a touch, or the finger is destroyed. One or the other. And show me proof if you claim otherwise.

Gad -

I should be privy to these secrets in several martial arts. I've never seen hide or hair of them. Most consider the "amazing feats" merely continued, constant training of stuff that was taught earlier. There are no real "secret techniques" in any martial art that I have seen so far.

Small words for Shao, Gad.

Again, small words for Shao. This kind of stuff is above his head.

-D

I believe that this entire thread was agreed to as spam, even by you yourself. Thus, it should be deleted - and it is a valid source of flame.

Untill my sensei watches his "Death Touch" in action and gives his opinion, I am classifying that as hoax. I do remember a video of it being shown at a fairly big gathering of folks earlier, and all the Godans or higher started laughing out loud at something. -shrug- Whatever it was, I lacked the training to understand. However, anything with a fanciful name such as "Death touch" is rarely what it claims to be.

Idle question - How much proof is there, other then the skydivers own account of his actions?

And I reiterate - this thread does not belong on these boards.

See previous comments. I'll ask my sensei about it sometime, and find out what is so vastly amusing about it. Honestly, I think it is bull - and Ripley's has been known to have some, shall we say, rather "rigged" shows? If this so-called "Death Touch" were real, as well, he'd have demonstrated it or taught it. And it would be something that would be spreading across the martial arts circles like wildfire - if it is so great, then everyone would have to learn it, if only to learn how to counter it.

Again, I seek proof. Not the skydivers own account of his actions.