There is a mud based on historical Rome, and another I recall reading about some time ago which is/was set in ancient Greece. Using a "real-world" theme is certainly a viable option and could produce a good mud, but most people seem to prefer a fictional setting.

For example, taking your "pirate" mud, you've got the potential for an interesting game. But by adding magic, you would suddenly add a whole new element to the game. By adding monsters and supernatural races, you're vasting increasing the possible character and opponent options. In addition, making up your own setting allows you to "create" history - you don't have to worry about history buffs pointing out loopholes in your theme. Equally, you can add surprises for the players, because it's not possible for them to cheat and read up on what happens where and when.

So in short, while I think your suggestion could provide a fun and interesting mud, you would be losing out on a lot of elements which make muds popular. It's just something you should bare in mind.

But what I mean is, the players would all know what had happened (historically) up until that point. There wouldn't really be any surprises, unless the player knew very little about history and had no interest in looking it up. One of the things I like about muds (like fantasy novels) is not knowing about unusual creatures and places until you meet them.

Another problem with historically accurate muds is that they can cause a lot of hard feelings. For example the Vietnam mud you suggested might be found offensive by players who had lost loved ones in Vietnam. Even historical events from a long time ago could cause offense - for example a mud based on the Crusades would no doubt offend a lot of religious people.

KaVir definitely has a point about why a historically accurate ‘modern’ mud probably would be a somewhat controvarsial idea. Even Word War II, and the Korean war are a bit uncomfortably close in time and the Vietnam War definitely is. The mental wounds have not healed, too many people would be hurt and/or offended. Try to imagine what you’d feel if your father/brother/uncle died in that war. Try even for a moment to imagine the Palestinian or Yugoslavian conflicts as subjects for a mud. Impossible, yes? Well, the psychological problem is the same, even so much more vivid the closer it gets in time.

Otherwise it’s quite possible of course, even using just stock code and snippets. Spells could easily be changed into something more modern and ‘realistic’. You can find a vehicle code, a ranged weapons code and several other snippets, which you could just as well use for tanks, aeroplanes and machineguns, as for carriages and bows and arrows in Medieval times, or spaceships and laser guns in Space Operas. But it would probably be wiser to keep the time distance a bit further from present days. I’d say that World War I or the American Civil War would be about the time limit.

However I don’t really understand the other objections about using real History as the base for a Mud. And I fail to see why it would make things more predictable than in any of the many Medieval, Tolkien or Wheel of Time based muds around. In fact I think that historical or geographical accuracy in the zones and background stories add some spice and flavour to the mud. And several such muds exist. To my knowledge there is a mud set in France during the time of the three Musketeers, and another featuring London in the time of Sherlock Holmes, and most likely there are others like that. In our mud we have an entire Dimension based on ancient Greece and Egypt around 2000 BC, when you generally travelled by ship, and when piracy was an accepted pastime even for the sons of Kings. We use the geography, topology and biology of the Mediterranean countries as basis for it, as well as the authentic history, legends and mythology. It’s quite fun, since the Greek Gods were supposed to wander the earth, interacting with the mortals, and definitely not behaving like any supreme beings. In fact they were a quarrelsome, promiscuous, resentful, envious, violent, passionate lot, usually up to no good. The perfect setting for a RP environment.

However, the general player preference still seems to be Medieval, fantasy based muds. Any poll you make would most likely show that. Possibly some sort of conservatism, since muds developed from the old Dragons and Dungeons roleplay games? Or just a lack of imagination on the side of the creators? I’m not sure which, possibly a mix of both.

Ouch.

Or it could possibly be that the simplist way for both the MUD creators and the players to be involved in a reality-escaping world is to not base the MUD on actual events.

I could understand using a more accurate location for a MUD to be an interesting setting for players, but to try and recreate an actual event seems to lean more towards a historical simulation than a world that devolps around the players actions.

I think you can make a successful game in just about any setting.  If you make the gameplay well enough I don't see why a Vietnam era game can't succeed, as controversial as it might be.  Although I certainly wouldn't call it a "revolution" just a different style of MUD.

The problem I see is what are your players going to do?  To me, a "realistic" day in the life of a vietnam soldier conjurs up images of eating food from a can and trying to fight off jungle rot on my foot.  And no "cure fungus" spell to be found...

The point of such spells in games is to give the players superhuman abilities.  There a very few games I can think of that don't give the player some sort of superhuman power.  Whether it's creating fireballs out of thin air or the ability to be shot 20 times and still live.  I think without this, you will have to be extremely creative in your gameplay.

Didn't someone do one set in 1920s Chicago somewhere? I seem to remember reading about it on TMC. Also, there's AoTT (Age of the Throne), a commercial MUD which I believe is set in the France of Louis XIV.

The problem is that there is just so much information about real-world history. With a made-up theme, you can invent the world yourself. Even with a Tolkien or WoT theme, there are huge amounts of the world and history which is uncharted - which allows for setting creativity. You suggested that Medieval/fantasy muds might be due to lack of imagination, but such settings require more imagination, because nothing is set in stone - the game world is based entirely on the imagination of the game developer. Moreover, as I said before, because the information is all made up by the game world creator, the players can't look up the information themselves. This forces players to explore the unknown if they want to learn more about the game world - or perhaps read the journals and exploits of other players.

As I said previously, a historical setting can work fine, but I prefer to play within a fictional one - and when I create a mud world, I like it to come from the imagination of myself and my fellow developers, not from a book.

I also remember a game that was around for a while based on The X-Files--now granted, that's poking into the paranormal and 'magical' realms a bit, but it's also firmly planted in the real world.

Like anything, your idea could be a good one if you developed and structured it right, but the problems that KaVir et al. have brought up are ones that you're going to need to address before you even begin.  The main question you're going to need to address is where you'll find the sense of drama in your world, where the point is that spurs interaction between players (both cooperative and opposing.)

Secondly, I would be hard-pressed to believe that a MU* based on any specific point in history (like the Vietnam war) would be vastly successful.  After a time, you're going to run out of plots and conflicts, or continue to produce ones that are so similar to prior ones that everything begins to turn stale.

That's another appeal with fantasy/science-fiction original themes (as well as themes based on popular novels that aim to produce a new story in an author's world as opposed to a mirror of that world itself): a good creative director will always be able to create some fresh drama.

I do think the idea is a good one, and one worth exploring further, but you're going to have to sit down and brainstorm all the potential weaknesses and problems that might arrise, and find methods of fixing them before you start inviting players in the door.

Best,
Edward

I think a historical setting would be really nifty, particularly if it weren't perfectly accurate. Even though there is reams of detailed information on historical events, there are still plenty of places to fill in the holes. Did the colonial period have assassins? If so, what were they like? What if a redcoat assassin killed George Washington -- would another player/General rise to take his place, or would the British have surpressed the revolution -- and what would it be like afterwards?

There are so many possibilities if one just takes history to be as malleable as fantasy history. Perhaps one could reenact the espionage-laden Cold War, or JFK's assassination, or the first Emperor of China, who is said to have been destroyed by a fire-breathing dragon, but historians believe it was a meteor.

You say that your theme "sounds more fun to me that spanking a purple dragon with a magical mace", but one of the nice things about a fantasy mud is the diversity of opponents (and thus the diversity of tactics required to defeat them). You can fight dragons, or orcs, or goblins, or any other sort of thing your imagination can conjure up - but in your mud, the players will be limited to killing Vietnamese solders. Hundreds of them. Thousands.

Now as a pure PK mud that might not matter too much - but from reading your latest post, it seems that the Vietnamese solders would all be mobs (or am I misreading your post?). From a strategic point of view it does sound interesting, particularly in terms of organisation and tactics - in fact it rather reminds me of mud concept which was discussed on MUD-DEV some years back, whereby the entire playerbase are thrown into the middle of a savage wilderness (except unlike your mud there are all sorts of nasties out there, and the players are forced to create their own settlements, tools and weapons).

However as far as gameplay is concerned, I think it's soon going to get boring for most players - you just don't have enough options for diversity. A World War II style mud might be more flexible (there are more sides involved, more vehicles and weapons, etc), but personally (and I know you wouldn't like this) I'd much rather see your ideas implemented into a futuristic mud. The players could choose from fictional races, or be regular humans, they could have a wide range of advanced weapons and gadgets, travel around in customised spaceships exploring new worlds and abandoned vessels - think something along the lines of Aliens (or Space Hulk). Now to me, that would be fun - because I'd have no idea what would be out there, and I'd have far more personal customisation available.

Anyway, just my opinion - not intended as criticism. I applaud you for going against the crowd, even though your mud wouldn't really appeal to me personally.

Some quick points though - are you going to have levels? If so, how will you handle the mobs? Different solders of different ability? Also you keep mentioning classes, but have you considered using a classless approach?

Be careful with your word choice then.

Vietnam was not a war, atleast the USA says, they called it a policing policy to help south vietnam,

Let me start by saying you have put some good thought into
your concept, and I agree that other periods of time could make
for some great games.

But that war? It would be my last choice to make, or to play. WWII,
the American Revolution, those would have a much broader appeal.

The only real problem I see with a military game is that it will not
have a wide appeal. For any army to function, people have to follow
orders, it seems to me that the MU* community is mostly about people
acting solo, or at least for their own purposes.

In a military conflict there would have to be a real shift in focus, making
a big enough map for large scale conflict is not going to trivial with any
codebase I am familiar with as well. The war you are discussing did not
have clear goals, we were not defending our homes, but the 'enemy' was.

One comment about your choice of words. I think you somewhat missed
the point in the reactions. It seemed to me that you used the word 'gay'
to mean 'bad, incorrect, silly' or something to that effect. It is not to spare
the feelings of a particular group, real or imaginary, it is that society has
finally started to really accept differences as just that, different.

And while there are exteme groups that go too far, I am sure you wish
to consume in a responsible manner, with some thought as to what sort
of world might be around for the next generation. That is the real goal
and a very wise one for the human race.

A.T
(-)

Medieval Fantasy, Sci-FI, Anime, etc etc..
This is what people are into in nowadays. I don't see a reason to make a MUD on the revolutionary war of america or the civil war. Who would want to play with those? Making a mud historically accurate isn't as fun as you might think.

My personal choice for this sort of game would be WWII. Although
WWII Online is out there already, and graphic to boot.

Any theme could be fun, if it can find an audience. I think the real
stumbling block is the issue of 'following Orders' as opposed to the
free-wheeling style of the average Mud player.

But... on the other hand, there are a lot of people who really love
all things War, so depending on how it was done there is certainly
a potential audience.

A.T
(-)

I'm glad you understand what I meant AT, with the "gay" remark, I was being sarcastic in my explanation. Like I said, I'll try and be as sensitive as possible on the issue.

You're right, I have put a lot of thought into this... and more will come. You're also both right in the fact that for the most part this WILL be order driven. What it all boils down to, is a MUD like this, or any realism-based MUD is going to attract only a certain "elite" type player that specializes in history or the art of war.

The truth is, I had first considered above all creating a MUD based on the age of sails. Pirates, British, Spanish, even the fledgling Americans.. ect. This was a very feasable idea, since you could incorporate buying and selling ect. Point is ladies and gentlemen, I don't want something easy. I want something "revolutionary!" lol. I want people that never considered playing text games until they found out they could fight in an online war in many different field of battle, all interactive with other players. I want the players to come and say, "Wow this is completely different than anything I've ever tried in a MUD."

Most importantly I want something people will go away remembering and saying, "What a great game that was. Remember that time we were both shot down over enemy territory.."

By the way people, if you like my idea... contact me at Smokejumperjon on AIM and gimme your ideas, code snippets, tutorials, documented information, body parts, non-used condoms, and really anything else that can help me get this freak show on the road.

If you have been around here much you probably know I am very
much for unique game concepts. I too like to do things that really
push the envelope.

And I am a bit of a military buff, so we share a common ground.

What I am really curious about is 1) what codebase and 2) how
are you going to set up the battlefields and combat.

As a game is this going be an 'endless' war with things either
resetting or just not allowing the players to every really win?

A.T
(-)

I am mostly trying to be helpful and nudge you in the direction
of full scale Mud design. Making a whole reality is a HUGE task but
one that many have accomplished.

I know you have a lot of player ideas, and good ones. But those are
really the end of the process. What your characters can do is based on
the World, rules, commands, and systems that are created.

So as you consider the map and how that might have to work, think
about the other details of the World. Terrain and what other factors
have to be included. I can tell you that a lot of the stuff that is really
vital to normal combat is not present in any mud codebase. Weapons
that fire beyond a single room are not standard, and a source of endless
debate.

A.T
(-)

Believe it or not, I have done a lot of work on the more un-interesting parts of play, I am using the "Design as I play" idea. I start out as one of the characters and see what exactly this character will need to do (and rules to guide him) to make it a good game.

You're more than right when you say that I get sidetracked a lot, it's true. But I have also began to outline the hardcore material for the MUD, even the grid mapping of Vietnam. I have began research from outside and first-hand sources in the war, to see what features and weapons I need to include.

I suppose I will put a post for Coders and Builders, or any staff, since my server became a reality last night. Wish me luck guys.

However in so far as a realistic mud, I think it would be rather fun to play this.

One idea you might consider so as to avoid the controversial issues and whatnot is to fabricate a time in history completely, and thoroughly.

Say you want a pirate theme? Pick a time in history wherein very little was happening and make up a few villain figureheads, their domains, some fanatical cultists (there always are some.. just don't name them and don't make them seem to parallel any religion), some lunatics, heretics, a few prophets, the figureheads who try to be good and just but also have a few dark secrets up their sleeve, and your players, who have to figure out what the hell is going on and who they want to side with.

Simply place the geography on scattered islands and you have pirates. Players could pick a role of an evil pirate, pillaging and all that, or a tactful good-natured piarte, who try only to take out ships of cruel nations.

That sets you up for a reputation factor, where after awhile you get a bounty on your head (whether from good or evil kingdoms), and you'll find yourself hunted by other ships.

And so on.

There's a lot to go on in so far as a realistic mud, but it's best to stay away from 'real' history, in my opinion.

You're right to a certain extent Frakkle, it is good to avoid certain controversy. On the other hand, many games out there don't bother... games based purely on history.

I've Decided that we are going to build a MUD based on Vietnam, however it will not be the same. It will not have the same people, or near the involvement in the beginning that it did in real life. Everything else will be the same as far as weaponry and the types of people that were there.

Everything in the past that has been done, and done well, has sparked some sort of complaint or controversy. I expect this. I am going to treat this MUD with the utmost respect to those that lost their lives in this war, and in memory of them show people what they really had to go through by recreating the same senario, that this time will be changed (the outcome and battles) by the players themselves.

How about starting a MUD from a certain point in history; The invention of electricity, and build from there. Let the MUD create its own future, while maintaining some portions of a history we all know. It may be fun, may not be.

This reminds me of the old story where people used Hot Air Balloons to travel into outerspace in the 19th Century - was that a TSR product?

Wonderful, someone else agrees!

I have actually had the idea for quite some time now. My idea includes enhanced detailed and would be based on the politics of the real world today. Everything would be player-controlled and the politics in-depth. If you can't tell, I would like to be a politician in a MUD world, so thats why I had the idea. Sounds good to me though, and if your developing that MUD I would LOVE to help out.

-Letum